Sure there is systematic corruption and no one neither the GOI nor the opposition or the people has done anything about it .
If GOI took action based on CAG report then most of the politician would have ended in jail by now , CAG report AFAIK is non binding on the GOI.
Tell me what are you going to do about it ?
Will you file a PIL based on CAG or AS report and bring the guilty to justice ?
Why dont you - since you were going on and on about how the Army is not responsible and only the evil GOI is. Go on, walk the talk and file a PIL.
No if the Army was responsible along with MOD or Politician then they should be brought to justice with what ever means possible.
What are all these means possible? Care to elaborate or even try them out? When was the last time, all "these means possible" were tried out and worked?
No body is denying it , every one knows and its a open secret that every defence procurement has kickbacks involved , but no one has ever done any thing to fix it.
No, you missed the point entirely. Somehow your argument hinges on the belief that the Army cannot make mistakes in procurement and is perfect in what it does. Which then leads to the flawed conclusion, that any incorrect procurement is due to corruption, even when it is not. Cases like the Arjun are not as much due to corruption, as organizational inertia and ego clashes (case in point being the DGMFs behaviour) and then the usual tendency amongst everyone to keep with the flawed decision and avoid taking contrary stances.
I am not repeating these statements nor is that a fallacy , go figure out how does defence procurement works and how it is impossible for any single institution to manipulate it and get its way.
Unfortunately for you, I know enough about defence procurement as it stands to recognize the kind of flawed arguments you are making.
Defence procurement is a multi stage process and the decision to procure it or cancel it rest with GOI ( CCSA ) the final decision making body of GOI.
Fluff. In the case of the T-90, the procurement was driven by the Army citing operational needs and pushed through as well. The CCS signs off the deal getting all the so called stakeholders on board, in reality however, the deal is cooked before it reaches the CCS and everyone knows what the result will be.
T-90 has gone through similar multi stage process and GOI ( CCSA ) has approved these defence deals , much like Gorshkov or Scorpene or any other big ticket defence deal.
Actually, in both those deals as well, the respective services had a lot of stake in making the rest of the stakeholders sign on the dotted line, citing national security.
Infact the orders in different stages were approved by GOI of BJP and Congress
Please point to me what is wrong in what i said ?
What you said was clearly wrong, in that you were attempting to deflect blame for the Army's flawed choice for the T-90, onto the remaining stakeholders who went along with the Army's decision believing the latter's choice was accurate. It is the Army which made the choice of tank, cited operational needs and continued to impress upon decision makers that it needed more tanks even when the current ones were underperforming and the Russians did not do their bit. In what shows the level of hilarity, the entire T-90 deal is worth, the Army first evaluated the T-72S, and found them to be used tanks patched up and supplied to them, and then cited it as a reason to go for the T-90, stating that "at least" these tanks would be new. :rolleyes:
I have a disagreement on what they have said , so I just agree to disagree with them
Quite interesting you choose to disagree
with whatever evidence shows your claims to be wrong. So far, we have had tons of evidence from multiple people showing pretty much each and every statement you made to be inaccurate.
So every one is fudging here , Army , MOD , GOI .... so we are not in a good state of affairs then isnt it ?
So you admit that there was fudging on the T-90 procurement? Great.
True it seems the GOI disagrees with the Standing Committee on Defence and did not opted for superior Arjun
The GOI acted on the recommendations of the Army which opted for the T-90. Insofar as the Std Committee on Defence's statements are concerned, they testify to how flawed the entire T-90 procurement is wherein an inferior, flawed, obsolete design was chosen on dubious grounds and the decision was not even rescinded but continues to be supported.
I never said that the GOI decision was correct or wrong , I just said that in every stage of T-90 deal GOI was involved and that they are the final decision making authority , not the IA , not the DRDO , nor the MOD.
Which is somewhat irrelevant, as they tend to go along with what the IA asks, and the MOD actively works with the IA to ensure that cited requirements for clearances are met. In certain cases, as in the case of the T-90, the MOD even tweaks the deal to ensure the IA got what it wanted, eg by dropping APS, going for extra imports even when the tank does not work.
As of date, the subpar T-90s dont have a functioning thermal imager, dont come with adequate TOT, have issues with derated engines which overheat, the ballistic computer does not accept Indian rounds, the tank cannot accomodate extra electronics..the list of defects is huge. But yet, procurement continues.
The GOI is within its right to disagree with Army , MOD or DRDO suggestion and make a decision , it the prerogative of GOI , it may agree to suggestion of Army , DRDO and MOD as well
See prior reply.
True , we do not know the circumstances under which succession Government has allowed such a go ahead to procure the T-90 in big numbers.
Govt procurement is all about continuity, bar allegations of corruption. The Army made the case, successive Govts have pushed for it.
So now that the comparative trials are done and few blogs claim that Arjun was superior , will GOI order thousand more Arjun ?
The GOI will not order a single Arjun more, unless the Army agrees to it. And there lies the problem. The Army ordering a thousand more Arjuns also raises the question that the Army was wrong about the T-90, and it is not to the advantage of the ex DGMF and the institution that such questions be raised.
The Army will accept what ever GOI provides them with , it may not always be possible to procure top of the line stuff for various reason , but it is not the business of the Army to tell the GOI what decision they should take , the decision making authority is solely the prerogative of GOI .
In an utopian world perhaps. In Indian procurement, the GOI has long stopped forcing equipment on the Army unless they meet basic Army criteria. The problem is that these criteria, as the CAG justifiably points out, are often whimsical, inaccurate and flawed and end up causing inferior equipment to be chosen.
Any decision by the GOI/MOD to play favorites, invites allegations of corruption and wrongdoing. No current RM worth his political acumen will wade in such sticky waters. As things stand, the Army can come up with a dime a dozen claims and counterclaims to rubbish any piece of equipment. They have done so repeatedly with the Arjun.
The IA ( like IN/IAF ) does the field test and provides the result to MOD and thats where it end its role , The Army like other defence service has to abide by the decision of GOI , if any clarification is required the GOI asks the MOD or Defence Service to provide the same.
Wrong again. The services submit a fairly authoritative and comprehensive set of reports to the MOD to indicate their preferred choice(s).
In the case of the T-90, it was a single vendor situation, and it did not even have a competitor. The deal is then referred to the CCS of which the MOF is a member, and once it is cleared the procurement goes through. The actual work begins much before the deal reaches the CCS itself in several cases, citing urgency, and the MOF even indicates to the MOD whether they will oppose or agree to a certain deal.
All in all, your claims that the GOI is somehow responsible for the T-90 mess, while the Army is to be absolved are not accurate. And so is the belief that the GOI alone can run roughshod over Army desires. Things dont work that way.