PAK-FA Thread - First flight

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Peter Teschner
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Peter Teschner »

krish.pf wrote: Really? Well lets hope so. I'd be nice if there is a pic.

I don't care if Pak-FA is less maneuverable then F-22, or has lower thrust to weight ratio, or has a slightly higher wing loading. But I certainly hope that it's frontal RCS is better or equal to F-22(i.e only taking the design of both fighters into consideration & not RAM and other maintenance intensive stuff). I saw Parlay's(spell?) drawings as well as others, and it seems to suggest some portion of the blades will be visible. I certainly hope this is not the case. Even if it is, I hope this is addressed in the next prototype. This jet has so much potential, and I don't wish this major drawback to exist.
I'm no RCS expert but taking only the design into consideration without ram and other stuff... Side aspect looks stealthy enough. Top aspect also looks ok. I think the bottom aspect will be relevant in case of sams/ground radars since they radiate from the ground up.. the plane needs some work there. Rear aspect, I have no comments to put forth.
It possible to see at 8th page at this forum (Aditya G post) and at Paralay's forum, where was picture of horizontal layer air channels. And, I think, channels have internal guiding, as for management of air current for engines, that and for steals effects.
Last edited by Peter Teschner on 01 Feb 2010 03:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gagan »

Image

That surface that we've seen might possibly be an aerodynamic fairing. Isn't the aircraft supposed to have missiles on the outer side of the air intakes? Perhaps this might have some kind of a role to play.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by shiv »

The PAK-FA still has a largish "pit" between the engines in the area where the internal bays are located. (This is like the "deep pit" between the engines of the MKI where a man can stand upright - at least I can) I would expect a future development to fill up this gap on the PAK-FA to have a much deeper internal bay that could probably accommodate more fuel/munitions.

It is important not to confuse MRCA with FGFA. MRCA is for the 2015-2035 time frame. FGFA would be 2020 to 2050
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by tejas »

Shiv garu, I too was concerned as to the appearance of the ventral surface of the PAK-FA. Not extra fuel or weapons, my slow witted mind was not thinking that far ahead. Rather I was worried about radar reflectivity. Look how relatively smooth the under surface of the F-22 ( NO PIT) is compared to PAK-FA. That and the rounded engine nozzles are my only questionmarks on this gorgeous machine.


http://www.air-attack.com/MIL/f22/f22_ca20070404.jpg
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by shiv »

tejas wrote:Shiv garu, I too was concerned as to the appearance of the ventral surface of the PAK-FA. Not extra fuel or weapons, my slow witted mind was not thinking that far ahead. Rather I was worried about radar reflectivity. Look how relatively smooth the under surface of the F-22 is compared to PAK-FA. That and the rounded engine nozzles are my only questionmarks on this gorgeous machine.


http://www.air-attack.com/MIL/f22/f22_ca20070404.jpg
That 4 aircraft picture (PAKFA, YF 23, F 22, F 35) that Igorr posted is great. Tells me things that I did not realize. A thought that I had (wrong or right) is that the wings of every one of those aircraft are a huge radar reflecting surface. However - that probably does not matter because by the time such an a/c shows its wings from below it is already close to or over the target. The aircraft needs to be stealthy from the sides and end-on - which is the aspect enemy radar would see if the aircraft was flying in low over the horizon, or from one side to another in the distance.

The other thing is it probably needs to be stealthy from above and maybe I am wrong but clearly the exhaust pipes of the YF 23 and F 22 are designed to be less visible (to an IR detector) from below. They should be quite visible to an AWACS from above.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

^^^ This is just a first prototype and first flight what the Russians call it as ( Kompleksnyi Naturnui Stend = Airframe Test Article ).

Let them first validate the FCS/FBW , Aerodynamics Characteristics and Engine ( which as we are told is a new one developed in secret ).

We will see non stealthy stuff emerging from the aircraft on the first two prototype which will spend most of the time validating the entire envelop of flight characteristics and FBW control laws.

You can bet from 3rd prototype when RCS test ,Avionics ,Sensors etc will be tested it will be close to production standard and the production bird will have further refinements as far as low RCS goes.

Its a long way to go before we see a production and gold standard PAK-FA emerging with many challenges lies ahead.

For now enjoy the new Su-35 video

[youtube]saF0P0eEyWE&feature=related[/youtube]
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by nachiket »

Gagan wrote: How big is the 400Km Novator ALCM?
Novator ALCM? The KS-172 Novator is a long range anti-AWACS AAM.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

shiv wrote:A thought that I had (wrong or right) is that the wings of every one of those aircraft are a huge radar reflecting surface. However - that probably does not matter because by the time such an a/c shows its wings from below it is already close to or over the target. The aircraft needs to be stealthy from the sides and end-on - which is the aspect enemy radar would see if the aircraft was flying in low over the horizon, or from one side to another in the distance.

The other thing is it probably needs to be stealthy from above and maybe I am wrong but clearly the exhaust pipes of the YF 23 and F 22 are designed to be less visible (to an IR detector) from below. They should be quite visible to an AWACS from above.
Shiv , we are just assuming that the aircraft will be flying level and straight on its entire approach to target and thus presenting the best possible lowest frontal RCS value.

Far from the truth even a slight change in that angle will have a bearing on its RCS and will cause a spike in its RCS.

More ever as you have mentioned not all the angles of a Stealh Aircraft as seen by radar will have the same optimised low value , a good example is AWACS flying higher and F-22/PAK-FA flying lower and fast or vice/verse

One should also note that the RF itself would be operating in many Bands ( X/L/S/VHF/Metric to name a few ) and many frequencies it is just impossible to to design an aircraft which takes care of all this scenario.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Rahul M »

quoting again for the importance of this post.
Aditya G wrote:Placement of engines relative to nozzles, indicating S-ducts:

Image

Good enhancement of underside showing
(a) Flanker style air dams on the intakes.
(b) simple MLG system compared to flanker variants
(c) '"bulky" actuator covers like our Tejas.
(d) possible meshed skin for air cooling
(e) most important it also clears that there are no weapon stores on the wings, except for the housing near the intakes, which imho are too small to hold a missile.

Image
in addition, there might be something like this.
Rahul M wrote:this is probably how the insides of the intake works. (please magnify to get a better look)

Image
blue arrow -- air flow direction.
ENGN in red -- about where the engine will be.

the engines are also positioned upwards compared to the intake, giving that booty up look ( :P )
all in all, a high degree of concealment for engine face and therefore high frontal stealth ?

added later : hmm, bill sweetman says the same thing.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest
But it has a chined forebody, edge alignment and (probably) inlet line-of-sight blockage and internal weapons.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by tejas »

I guess if the PAK-FA is essentially an air superiority weapon and the MCA optimized for ground attack then the ventral surface of the PAK-FA is not as important as its frontal, rear and dorsal surfaces. I just worry about the Chini S300s and their illegally cloned variants. Perhaps the Russians are not as worried that they have to face such formidable air defences?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by negi »

shiv wrote: The other thing is it probably needs to be stealthy from above and maybe I am wrong but clearly the exhaust pipes of the YF 23 and F 22 are designed to be less visible (to an IR detector) from below. They should be quite visible to an AWACS from above.
YF-23 visibly is most progressive of the three in terms of RCS reduction for both the intakes and nozzles are exposed only from top and no AWACS can operate at service ceilings which these aircraft are capable of.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by shiv »

Austin wrote: Shiv , we are just assuming that the aircraft will be flying level and straight on its entire approach to target and thus presenting the best possible lowest frontal RCS value.
True but it is all relative isn't it?

Assume an attacking aircraft that has to fly 500 km over enemy territory. Would its "best bet" be low and fast on the way in? Or high and fast? I am guessing that the old non stealthy a/c needed to be low and fast. The terrain and curvature of the earth would make them invisible until they were seconds away from air defences and the low flying would decrease their range/time on target. A good AWACS should be able to see them clearly from above.

A stealthy plane could probably come in high increasing its range and time on target, but it would necessarily have to maintain the lowest observability profile.

A combination of terrain masking and stealth might be the best bet. Just a guess. In any case a robust air defence system should be able to pick up intruders before they enter your territory and intercept them. Total stealth would mean that they are not picked up at all. But total stealth is nearly impossible, so stealth should be good enough to get a plane undetected and un intercepted until it is almost at its target so it can carry out its attack on a target that isn't expecting company.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by shiv »

negi wrote:YF-23 visibly is most progressive of the three in terms of RCS reduction for both the intakes and nozzles are exposed only from top and no AWACS can operate at service ceilings which these aircraft are capable of.

Two points to make here. Unless the aircraft is approaches at very high altitude after having been refuelled far far away - the AWACS that is able to see 500 km into enemy territory may be able to detect a take off and climb.

Secondly if you look at the angle subtended by the wings (to produce a radar reflection for ground based radar) of two aircraft that are say 30 km away - with one that is flying at 1000 meters altitude and another at 10,000 meters - the lower flying one gives a more "end on" view and a smaller profile than the higher flying one for any given distance. Also the lower flying one is masked by terrain until it is much closer.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by negi »

It is obvious people who design stealth AC take above things into consideration and it is obvious that they realize that when it comes to RCS mitigation there is no 'one size fits all ' solution to this issue , but given the amount of emphasis on lower RCS whether it be the F-22 or the PAKFA it is evident that the designers have been able to lower RCS to a number which could be critical to the success of a mission and probably affect the outcome of a conflict.

Shiv for AWACS to detect a F-22/PAKFA at 500Km it will have to be radiating a hell lot of power and it is obvious these AC will obviously pick such signals even when operating in LPI mode and the way I understand EM propagation PAKFA and F-22 will have detected the AWACS even before the former detects the aggressors as the signal power incident on the target will be fairly high as compared to the return SNR on the receiver end .

As for altitudes many things come into consideration for a lo-lo profile is lot more demanding in terms of navigation as well as fuel consumption when compared to a hi-hi approach , I believe all these scenarios cannot be discussed without having mission parameters , terrain data and more importantly a map of radar and other AD assets of the enemy once we have all these then one can figure as to what would be the most optimum and safe flight profile for the aggressors to evade enemy ADS.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by shiv »

negi wrote: Shiv for AWACS to detect a F-22/PAKFA at 500Km it will have to be radiating a hell lot of power and it is obvious these AC will obviously pick such signals even when operating in LPI mode and the way I understand EM propagation PAKFA and F-22 will have detected the AWACS even before the former detects the aggressors as the signal power incident on the target will be fairly high as compared to the return SNR on the receiver end ..
I was wondering about the IR signature of takeoff at long distances. A related query would be how missile launch detectors work and how a satellite based asset could detect missile launch.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by vina »

Hmm. So the PAK-FA is not exactly a space age flying saucer. It basically follows the same aerodynamic configuration of the SU-27 and Mig 29 (twin boom design with really no "fuselage" to speak of) and the space between the engines under the engine has now been covered to make an enclosed "stealth" carriage space and the wings are "fuslage" sides are now extended and the wings joints are farther out and the extra "space" there now carries "short range" missiles in fairings.

All in all a very evolutionary design (not a bad thing.. the basic aerodyanmic config was successfully proven in the Flanker and Fulcrum).. So basically , this looks like a Flanker with an F-15 wing and tail plane.

And ah.. For all those who dissed the ADA for an "unproven" LEVCON concept and shot their mouths off.. well eat crow. The much ballyhooed PAK-FA has EXACTLY the same thing. Instead of the Yindoo name "LEVCON" , it is called some Russi name now in the PAK FA and now the fan boys all over the world will sing hosannas of it being the next best thing to sliced bread.

And of course, our Cheeni friends will do a "ctrl c + ctrl v" of that put that on the JF-17 Bandar and the J-20 " Hot Shot Sooper Dooper" and the J-XX "Invisible Bandar" and claim that it was their idea initially and was discussed in some paper in the Ming/Ching Dynasties by a mandate from heaven.

Yawn.. All in all, I am sort of underwhelmed by the aerodynamic config. Nothing great / ground breaking and my.. my.. the size of those wings , sure aint going to do sustained super cruise or anything much.

With all that thrust vectoring and everything, I wonder why the Russians didng go for small nearly vestigial wings (cutting drag and weight) and then rely on thrust vectoring for maneuverabilty and super agility.

Unless I see that kind of basic stuff that can be justified by common sense physics, I really dont buy this super cruise story from anyone. Lets face it folks. It is really a sub sonic cruiser for most part and is really a "stealth flanker" (will have comparable maneuverabilty I think)..

It is a huuuge plane. Dont know how much it will cost , but will surely cost a hell of a lot to build, acuqire, run and maintain.

Lets get the MCA out. This one isn't really suited for our needs. I am willing to put my money that the Yindoo version of the Pak FA will be a stealth bomb truck. That is where it will make the most sense with that kind of wing size and everything. It is kind of like the FB-22 that was never built. It will be the day 1 door kicker to knock out the key enemy assets in stealth strikes. The Indian version will have a much higher MTOW (sort of like SU30 vs Su 27) and be more strike oriented. The Russian version seems to be more A2A.

Just my thoughts etc..
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

Rahul ji, though your red circles to project that it is slight above the inlet is understandable, but if you take the side photo one, one could see the angle at which these engines are mounted does not correspond to your straight red lines. Or it's just my eyes may be..
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by krish.pf »

Here are clearer pics from parlay. More than half of the engines are facing the intakes. Ofcourse this is only 2 dimensional, but when you super impose it with the bottom view, there is nothing much that can be done. But the theory of s ducts in above pic(the blue and red lines airflow pic) looks promising if that is reflected as an entire S shape duct and not just small bumps on the top and the bottom respectively in 3 dimension.
Image
Edit: Another one: http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9784/side1fl.jpg
Last edited by krish.pf on 01 Feb 2010 10:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by jasmeet »

Gagan wrote:Image

That surface that we've seen might possibly be an aerodynamic fairing. Isn't the aircraft supposed to have missiles on the outer side of the air intakes? Perhaps this might have some kind of a role to play.
I reckon they have marked the areas that are reflecting radar signals with yellow primer that will receive RAM coatings in the beginning.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Rahul M »

SaiK wrote:Rahul ji, though your red circles to project that it is slight above the inlet is understandable, but if you take the side photo one, one could see the angle at which these engines are mounted does not correspond to your straight red lines. Or it's just my eyes may be..
do you at all bother to read the posts to see who posted what ?
Here are clearer pics from parlay. More than half of the engines are facing the intakes. Ofcourse this is only 2 dimensional, but when you super impose it with the bottom view, there is nothing much that can be done.
krish, check the image I posted in my earlier post. there is very likely a radar blocker inside that intake, which is where the LG goes in.

you are thinking in 2-D.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Cain Marko »

tejas wrote:I guess if the PAK-FA is essentially an air superiority weapon and the MCA optimized for ground attack then the ventral surface of the PAK-FA is not as important as its frontal, rear and dorsal surfaces. I just worry about the Chini S300s and their illegally cloned variants. Perhaps the Russians are not as worried that they have to face such formidable air defences?
Why can't the Pakfa be used for ground attack? The weapon bays are more than big enough. not for a Brahmos (unnecessary imho) of course, but enough for the air launched Kloob, Kh-31 variants, Kh-35s etc. Lots more space than both the so called bomb truck f-35 and the air superiority F-22. IOWs, this bird has the potential to be better than either in said roles.

As far as AWACs detecting pakfa, it'd be v.difficult for it since the Pakfa is designed to cruise at much higher altitudes and is v. likely to carry AWACS killer missiles (ala r-33 variants). Best chance lay with GBAD as the russkis guessed a long time ago and invested in S-400 types with mammoth bistatic systems.

Vinaji,

Some layman nitpicks -
All in all a very evolutionary design (not a bad thing.. the basic aerodyanmic config was successfully proven in the Flanker and Fulcrum).. So basically , this looks like a Flanker with an F-15 wing and tail plane.
:shock: :eek: Damn! from what angle do you see an eagle? The eagle has no LERX, and the wingsweep on the Pakfa is more akin to a delta! Again, the similarity with the flanker is v.marginal, albeit more than the eagle. Only in the space between the engines and the nacelles do I see some similarity, otherwise, the bird is totally different. Much bigger LERX, greater sweep on wings, smaller fins etc.
And ah.. For all those who dissed the ADA for an "unproven" LEVCON concept and shot their mouths off.. well eat crow. The much ballyhooed PAK-FA has EXACTLY the same thing. Instead of the Yindoo name "LEVCON" , it is called some Russi name now in the PAK FA and now the fan boys all over the world will sing hosannas of it being the next best thing to sliced bread.
Indeed, LCA is ground breaking in many ways!
Yawn.. All in all, I am sort of underwhelmed by the aerodynamic config. Nothing great / ground breaking and my.. my.. the size of those wings , sure aint going to do sustained super cruise or anything much.
Why would the size of the wings matter? I'd have thought the wing sweep was a greater factor in Super cruising, and this bird has a far sharper sweep than the F-22/23. In either case, the wing size of the 22 or tiffy is pretty large, and they supposedly super cruise.
With all that thrust vectoring and everything, I wonder why the Russians didng go for small nearly vestigial wings (cutting drag and weight) and then rely on thrust vectoring for maneuverabilty and super agility.
They did that with the tail fins, which are surprisingly small (also movable), kind of innovative there. Should help reduce drag too, and assist in SC; the F-22 tailfins look HUGE in comparison.
Unless I see that kind of basic stuff that can be justified by common sense physics, I really dont buy this super cruise story from anyone. Lets face it folks. It is really a sub sonic cruiser for most part and is really a "stealth flanker" (will have comparable maneuverabilty I think)..
Naah, I would have to differ, the russkis are certain this bird will soopah cruise (at what speeds, I dunno, but that is a design parameter).
It is a huuuge plane. Dont know how much it will cost , but will surely cost a hell of a lot to build, acuqire, run and maintain.
IIRC, most 5gen birds are a pain to maintain, F-22 is no exception, and i doubt the MCA will be.

CM
Last edited by Cain Marko on 01 Feb 2010 12:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by krish.pf »

krish, check the image I posted in my earlier post. there is very likely a radar blocker inside that intake, which is where the LG goes in.

you are thinking in 2-D.
Yeah I mentioned that. Infact it would be great if the 2 radar blockers are blocking the entire inlet as a whole block(from top to bottom of the inlet) as implied in 2d in the bottom view, rather than just bumps(hugging only top or bottom) in 3d. If they are only bumps(hugging only top or bottom of inlet) then if you look at it from the front view, there will be a clean line to the engine blades where the bumps don't cover(in the front view).

lol.. this reminds me of Engineering drawing from 1st year in college.

Edit: made it clearer
Last edited by krish.pf on 01 Feb 2010 11:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Avarachan »

vina wrote: And ah.. For all those who dissed the ADA for an "unproven" LEVCON concept and shot their mouths off.. well eat crow. The much ballyhooed PAK-FA has EXACTLY the same thing. Instead of the Yindoo name "LEVCON" , it is called some Russi name now in the PAK FA and now the fan boys all over the world will sing hosannas of it being the next best thing to sliced bread.
Vina, for the record, Igorr (who is a very patriotic Russian) referenced the LCA in his discussion of the LERX: "Second – the controllable LERX, something very close in idea to what LCA has, must play a great role in maneuverability on subsonic." Yes, Russia is now learning from India, just as we also learn from them. To Russia's great credit, she is willing to acknowledge the achievements of her friends. I hope that both of our nations will continue to be so gracious now and in the future.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by narayana »

As per Old Vayu here are the estimated specs of pak fa

General Characterstics
Length :22.0 m(72ft 2 in)
Wingspan : 14.2m (46ft 7 in)
Height 6.05m(19ft 10 in)
Wing Area : 78.8 * 78.8 sq .m)
Empty weight 18,500 kg
loaded wt : 26,000 kg
useful load 6,500 kg
Max Take off wt :37000 kg
Power plant 2* saturn lyulka al-41f turbofan
Dry thrust 9800 kgf
thrust with afterburner:15,500 kgf

Performance
Maximum Speed Mach 2+at altitude (2,100 +km/h),1,300 +mph)
g-limits 9-10 g
Cruise speed 1,300 km/h
Ferry Range 4,000 to 5000 km
service ceiling 20,000 m
rate of climb 350 m/s
wing loading :470 kg
thrust/wt .84 (dry thrust) minimum thrust/wt(afterburner) 1.19
take off runway length 350m
endurance 3.3 hrs

Armament
Guns:2* 30 mm internal cannon
Hardpoints 8 in all
Avionics
Radar :N)50 BRLS AESA/PESA
Freq:3mm
Dia:.7m
Targets:32 tracked 8 engaged
Range 400 km
Power 4,000 w
wt 65 to 80 kg
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

shiv wrote:True but it is all relative isn't it?
A combination of terrain masking and stealth might be the best bet. Just a guess. In any case a robust air defence system should be able to pick up intruders before they enter your territory and intercept them. Total stealth would mean that they are not picked up at all. But total stealth is nearly impossible, so stealth should be good enough to get a plane undetected and un intercepted until it is almost at its target so it can carry out its attack on a target that isn't expecting company.
Very true , one needs to look at all round performance of an aircraft including stealth to achieve a certain degree of survivability and mission success in an IADS environment.

Emphasizing too much or over emphasis on stealth at the cost of flying qualities of aircraft will mean you loose every thing once one has developed an effective way to deal with stealth by multiple means.

If you manage to build a very stealthy aircraft without much compromise in its flying qualities , you may end up with low weapon load and very high cost which defeats the entire purpose of building and buying aircraft in numbers i.e afford ability factor

I do not know what level of stealth PAK-FA is trying to achieve or is designed for , but hopefully they do not compromise on flying qualities ,sensor fusion , weapons load and afford ability factor with overemphasis on RCS reduction.

The point is every one looks at Stealth and Wow factor behind those magnificent flying machine , but one fails to look similar progress which took place in the development of long range mobile SAM,Mobile Metric and Bistatic/AESA radar and IADS.

Much like for every move there is counter move , if two decades of employment of stealth is any thing to go by even against a low to moderate AD environment its effectiveness has been less than spectacular.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

narayana wrote:As per Old Vayu here are the estimated specs of pak fa
No one knows the specs of PAK-FA as it has not been reveled , so all figures are just speculation.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Philip »

Russia insists that the first PAK-FAs will be in service within 5 years.If as some have stated,we have agreed to buy "50" single-seat Pak-FAs before getting our own twin-seat versions,we could have a 5th-gen fighter in IAF service as early as 2015/16.Acquiring more upgraded SU-30MKIs,which will incorporate some of the 5th-gen's features,will be the best way in which to integrate the aircraft into IAF service most efficiently and also acquire cutting edge tech. as an when it appears.Also ramping up LCA MK-2 development and reducing the numbers of MMRCA acquired now looks a more attractive proposition.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by narayana »

Philip wrote:Russia insists that the first PAK-FAs will be in service within 5 years.If as some have stated,we have agreed to buy "50" single-seat Pak-FAs before getting our own twin-seat versions,we could have a 5th-gen fighter in IAF service as early as 2015/16.
Yup as per Russian Vice Air Chief Lt. Gen Igor Sadofyev "The deadlines have been set -it Must take to the skies in 2012 and enter service 2015."
Courtesy Vayu
Nirmal
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Nirmal »

Philip wrote:Russia insists that the first PAK-FAs will be in service within 5 years.If as some have stated,we have agreed to buy "50" single-seat Pak-FAs before getting our own twin-seat versions,we could have a 5th-gen fighter in IAF service as early as 2015/16.Acquiring more upgraded SU-30MKIs,which will incorporate some of the 5th-gen's features,will be the best way in which to integrate the aircraft into IAF service most efficiently and also acquire cutting edge tech. as an when it appears.Also ramping up LCA MK-2 development and reducing the numbers of MMRCA acquired now looks a more attractive proposition.
According to our dear Defense Minister, 2017 is the likely date of induction into IAF. The '50' you talk about was a compromise reached with Russia to show our support and share in thier version of the aircraft development as Russia has also now shown keen intrest in buying some of the twin seaters of FGFA. This has all transpired during Anthony's recent visit to Russia.
kit
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by kit »

Philip wrote:Russia insists that the first PAK-FAs will be in service within 5 years.If as some have stated,we have agreed to buy "50" single-seat Pak-FAs before getting our own twin-seat versions,we could have a 5th-gen fighter in IAF service as early as 2015/16.Acquiring more upgraded SU-30MKIs,which will incorporate some of the 5th-gen's features,will be the best way in which to integrate the aircraft into IAF service most efficiently and also acquire cutting edge tech. as an when it appears.Also ramping up LCA MK-2 development and reducing the numbers of MMRCA acquired now looks a more attractive proposition.

I made the same observation some time back but was countered by a very knowledgeable former member that LCA was not in production and so cannot make the requisite numbers.All in all this looks like a merry go around :| .This way is logical but apart from loss of face and 'geopolitical' considerations (sic) ??!
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Singha »

I have a generic question:

how is the JSF/f22 supposed to deliver laser guided munitions on targets of opportunity or mobile targets for which GPS co-ordinates are not static?

if it involves use of a laser pointer will something like atflir be integrated as a conformal
housing below the fuselage and use LO shaping and coatings?

if that is the case, does anything prevent Russia from doing the same on a laser
pod below and OLS above the nose of pakfa?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Austin wrote:^^^ This is just a first prototype and first flight what the Russians call it as ( Kompleksnyi Naturnui Stend = Airframe Test Article ).

Let them first validate the FCS/FBW , Aerodynamics Characteristics and Engine ( which as we are told is a new one developed in secret ).

We will see non stealthy stuff emerging from the aircraft on the first two prototype which will spend most of the time validating the entire envelop of flight characteristics and FBW control laws.

You can bet from 3rd prototype when RCS test ,Avionics ,Sensors etc will be tested it will be close to production standard and the production bird will have further refinements as far as low RCS goes.

Its a long way to go before we see a production and gold standard PAK-FA emerging with many challenges lies ahead.
Words of wisdom.

The F-22/Raptor, in a period of 10 years, went through 10 designs. I would expect the PAK-FA to go through at least 2-3 design changes in the next 2-3 years. Natural.
Vina wrote: Hmm. So the PAK-FA is not exactly a space age flying saucer. It basically follows the same aerodynamic configuration of the SU-27 and Mig 29 (twin boom design with really no "fuselage" to speak of) and the space between the engines under the engine has now been covered to make an enclosed "stealth" carriage space and the wings are "fuslage" sides are now extended and the wings joints are farther out and the extra "space" there now carries "short range" missiles in fairings.
So true.

But then this one started on the drawing boards some 10 years ago. The more I gawk at it, the more I am convinced that the funding in that era impacted the PAK-FA - and it still does today too. Russians are more capable than this and in other ways than a design it will show in a few more years. I suspect the name-to-fame, in the immediate future, for the PAK-FA will be the umpteen radar units that seem to drape it and perhaps the missile set it will host.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by nrshah »

Gurus,

I was going thru F16.net and i am in fear after reading RCS of Pak Fa will only be marginally better than f 18SH but not a match for F 35/22

Can any one help me get out of my fear?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Aditya G »

Singha wrote:I have a generic question:

how is the JSF/f22 supposed to deliver laser guided munitions on targets of opportunity or mobile targets for which GPS co-ordinates are not static?
Erm, a laser guided munition is guided by slewable laser, and thus dependant only on the sighting by the pilot and GPS.
if it involves use of a laser pointer will something like atflir be integrated as a conformal
housing below the fuselage and use LO shaping and coatings?

if that is the case, does anything prevent Russia from doing the same on a laser
pod below and OLS above the nose of pakfa?
Thats one reason why US is developing JDAMs and GPS-assisted INS bombs.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Bheem »

nrshah wrote:Gurus,

I was going thru F16.net and i am in fear after reading RCS of Pak Fa will only be marginally better than f 18SH but not a match for F 35/22

Can any one help me get out of my fear?
F-16.net main foundation is that US is best as it has most money and others are idiots. Or lets put it this way PAKFA will be way better than any F-35 "variant" India "may" ever have to face. IAF is not trying to fight USA and for our needs its fantastic.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

nrshah wrote: I was going thru F16.net and i am in fear after reading RCS of Pak Fa will only be marginally better than f 18SH but not a match for F 35/22

Can any one help me get out of my fear?
Why fear this early in the game?

Besides is a PAK-FA and F-22/35 a zero sum game? For all times?

What if (when FGFA comes) India opts for either more or less RCS? For it should be a matter of what is required and associated cost.

And, who knows what will come out of all the R&D in 5, 10 years? When the real PAK-FA comes out.







I would think that India should/would place more emphasis on the MCA than the FGFA.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Cain Marko »

Hmm, F-18 E/F vs. Pakfa vs. JSF vs. F-22. What makes stealth?

Shaping + Edge alignment? - F22, JSF, Pakfa - check, Sorry - no shornet
Canted fins? - F-22, JSF, Pakfa, Shornet - check
Internal bays ?- F-22, JSF, Pakfa - check, Sorry again, no shornet
Hidden engine faces ? - Check for all

The basics for stealth seem to be there on the Pakfa; I suspect sour grapes on the solah forum. Must bloody well hurt to see the new birdie, esp. since its not only stealth but also bootiful. Either that, or its been taken over by the perpetually green folks to India's northwest!

CM.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

New video on first flight ( via keypubs )

http://www.zvezdanews.ru/video/day_events/army/0039191/
Singha
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Singha »

solah forum expected to praise pakfa :rotfl:

thats like expecting hamid gul to convert to yinduism and become a ascetic in haridwar.

as people are saying the degree of stealth is only one factor in the overall effectiveness
of a platform given its X number of roles.

to put a crude analogy, a girl can be Nth degree beautiful but unless she has other good
gunas like kind nature, good cooking, curves in right places is she any use as a wife?

the solah fanboys tend to fixate and obsess on just the "stealth" part as a soln to all
the worlds problems.

for all his "obsessions" atleast the writeup by dr kopp introduced other relevant issues into
the matrix and no surprise the shornet gets a sound thrashing on most.
Last edited by Singha on 01 Feb 2010 20:42, edited 1 time in total.
nrshah
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by nrshah »

Thanks guys,

I am relieved

Besides one thing that i felt very happy about was that in every forum/ news, Indian being development partner was invariably mentioned ( in spite of the fact that officially we did not contribute any thing till date) with a stress that a lot of depends on Indian contribution specially when Mikhail Pogosyan himself was saying that we will do a lot of improvement in collaboration with India

I really feel proud to have chosen Russians as our strategic partners when i see case of UK which has been denied access to source codes of F 35

And yes I agree, we should be prioritizing MCA as well... I am dying for the day when two 5th gen fighters will be flying in IAF colors making us only country other than khan having two 5 gen fighters (one for Air superiority and other multirole)
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