PAK-FA Thread - First flight

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NRao
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Guys, be careful. By the time the real PAK-FA comes out you and may be even God will run out of beauties to name it after.

OR save some good ones for the FGFA at least. And one for the MCA too - while you are at it.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

Another aspect Russians may consider would be a cooling/suppression system for suppressing IR signature from pakfa's 3d TVC nozzles.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

Well, Sukhoi has clearly stated that their IR suppression methods, though different, are as effective as that of Americans. So IMO, people should not not overly worry about the flat nozzles. If flat nozzles was some magical way for IR suppression then why F-35 does not have it?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Raveen »

Gaur wrote:Well, Sukhoi has clearly stated that their IR suppression methods, though different, are as effective as that of Americans. So IMO, people should not not overly worry about the flat nozzles. If flat nozzles was some magical way for IR suppression then why F-35 does not have it?
Assuming the Russians know how much the Americans have suppressed IR by...and that is a HUGE assumption!
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Lalmohan »

Raveen wrote:
Gaur wrote:Well, Sukhoi has clearly stated that their IR suppression methods, though different, are as effective as that of Americans. So IMO, people should not not overly worry about the flat nozzles. If flat nozzles was some magical way for IR suppression then why F-35 does not have it?
Assuming the Russians know how much the Americans have suppressed IR by...and that is a HUGE assumption!
they're not all that bad as aero engineers you know! :roll:
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Raveen »

Lalmohan wrote:
Raveen wrote:Assuming the Russians know how much the Americans have suppressed IR by...and that is a HUGE assumption!
they're not all that bad as aero engineers you know! :roll:
Well in order to know exactly how well the American solution works, you need inside info, aka espionage...(this stuff is not exactly in the public domain you know) :roll: before your aero engineers can crunch the numbers for you!
Last edited by Raveen on 04 Feb 2010 04:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Cain Marko »

NRao wrote:Austin,

In the thrid pic that you posted we can see a small gap between what you call the LERX and the body. Wonder if that part has SOME mobility to perform some functions assigned to a canard. ?????????????
I could be wrong, but zat iz ze "movable lerx" (levcon) ahem, copied ( :P ) from ze brilliant one!

As far as IR suppression goes, I am sure there are many paths that lead to the same goal!

CM.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Raveen »

Cain Marko wrote:
NRao wrote:Austin,

In the thrid pic that you posted we can see a small gap between what you call the LERX and the body. Wonder if that part has SOME mobility to perform some functions assigned to a canard. ?????????????


As far as IR suppression goes, I am sure there are many paths that lead to the same goal!

CM.
I agree, but a statement saying we matched their IR suppression involves knowing how much they have and I somehow doubt that is easy and is probably something you don't want to disclose you have any knowledge about!
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Cain Marko wrote: I could be wrong, but zat iz ze "movable lerx" (levcon) ahem, copied ( :P ) from ze brilliant one!

As far as IR suppression goes, I am sure there are many paths that lead to the same goal!

CM.
Ah ha. Trying to get a prototype named after yourself, eh? :) Nice ....................

On IR suppression, I would think it is a matter of cost vs. need. If I can detect you before you detect me, why pay that extra cost for the time being. Perhaps ready the tech and keep it in back pocket to trump any effort/s to topple your strategy. My GUESS is that PAK-FA is packed with sensors, which will only get better in the next 4-5 years. So, why would they trade 3-D vectoring for IRSupp? Just a stray thought.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by niran »

NRao wrote:
does F-22 also had significant changes in their design from prototype to final version?
10 in 10 years.
below here is the pictorial changes observable to nakid eye.

Image



The YF-22A and the F-22A are similar but have clear differences. The F-22's cockpit has been moved forward and the air intakes moved back. The wings are clipped off and the rear control surfaces rearranged. The two tail-fins are shorter, and the tailplane are larger and reshaped. The main landing gear retracts sideways on the F-22A instead of forward.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

try http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ima ... son_lg.jpg with 14 changes - with comments.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by anishns »

For all those mujahids fantasizing about Rambha :(( :(( :((

http://photogallery.indiatimes.com/arti ... 527303.cms

I guess time to christen our frontline fighter with a meaner name!
Prem wrote:
"Rambha" here refers to a south India heroine who was famous for her well endowed backside
No.. you silly kufrs.. that Rambha is known for her thighs. :mrgreen:
Forgive me if i have sinned.
How can we forget, she is our very own Shakuntla on earth. :mrgreen:

She is God's vision, of pure thought. Composed in His creative mind;
His reveries of beauty wrought, The peerless pearl of womankind.
So plays my fancy when I see,How great is God, how lovely she.
She seems a flower whose fragrance none has tasted,
A gem uncut by workman's tool,A branch no desecrating hands have wasted,
Fresh honey, beautifully cool.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

There are some bulges on the F22 Raptor wings.

Does the bulges have something to its super-cruise..!

Look ]here.

Added Later :: Exactly my eyes see a wave pattern of bulges on wings.

I am open to words of wisdom from gurus.
Last edited by sumshyam on 04 Feb 2010 07:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

anishns wrote:For all those mujahids fantasizing about Rambha :(( :(( :((

http://photogallery.indiatimes.com/arti ... 527303.cms
Heart breaking :oops: :shock:
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Bhaskar »

^^ Its beautiful.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by shiv »

Appears to have provision for a cannon a la MKI in the starboard wing root.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

shiv wrote:
Appears to have provision for a cannon a la MKI in the starboard wing root.
Yes indeed that is the case , Plus LERX/LEVCON with 3D TVC will give good low speed handling characteristics , perhaps the only 5th gen fighter optimised for supersonic regimes of flight like any 5th Gen fighter but should do very well in subsonic regimes due to LEVCON/3D TVC at High AOA.

This is also proof that they will develop a Carrier variant of this fighter as reported earlier and India is keen for it.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by manjgu »

Sorry.. when is the firepower demo at pokhran?? date?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

Installation of L-band radars.

http://i26.tinypic.com/esu3d4.jpg
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Yagnasri »

Gurus till we have a correct name for Indian version of PAK FA let is call it Natasha mki :rotfl:
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Kanson »

Austin wrote:very high res pics , click to get the kick ;)

http://s002.radikal.ru/i197/1002/87/bc4e52182354.jpg
This pics gives the impression that it is a combination of F22 and YF23.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

Akshut wrote:
suraj p wrote:Wow...

Well a little bit of photoshop and the scars are gone...

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2057/p ... akshut.jpg
I wish this should happen for the production variant.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by jaladipc »

Narayana Rao wrote:Gurus till we have a correct name for Indian version of PAK FA let is call it Natasha mki :rotfl:
why not URVASI? a colleague of RAMBHA :P
A call AMCA as MENAKA :D
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Kanson »

rakall wrote: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: "Flat profile = Ileana" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

But Ileana is not exactly synonymous with stealth.. is she? She exposes too much too easily... No concealment at all..
:) I dont think so. I think it just a preparation for stealth. If you could bear me little more, i will explain. Just as Burqa is used to conceal the identity, Stealth is like wearing a Burqa. One can wear a Burqa like Arabs do or Burqa could be just a head scarf aa Malays do. If it is a Arab like Burqa, the Stealthy plane looks like B-2. If it is a head scarf, the identity is not fully concealed. For a 5th gen plane, with an all aspect stealth as well as aerodynamically efficient, Arab like Burqa cant be applied but the Burqa must be skin tight and full like Arabs wear. To wear a skin tight Burqa, obviously other fittings and garments are to be removed. So they are just making themselves ready for Stealth. :wink: Sorry for this transgression in otherwise a lovely thread. :mrgreen:
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

Unfortunately I am not able to open this image. I have tried both firefox and ie. I would really be grateful if someone could share this image via imageshack or photobucket. I am really curious to see all the pak-fa images I can get my hands on.
Thanks.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Craig Alpert »

Sukhoi's Stealth Fighter May Be Quick Export to India
............

Funding aid for the program is expected to come from India, say U.S. officials. India's air force is becoming sophisticated and has adopted an operational flexibility and tactical innovation similar to U.S. Air Force and Navy fighter units.

The flights have answered some questions, but raised even more new ones.

“It is apparent that more concern has been paid to shaping, but there are still many surface intersections and flight test probes that will stress [increase the radar] signature,” says a senior Air Force officer involved in development of the F-117 and F-35. “In addition, we need to understand the internal mechanics of very large inlets to determine how and if engine blockage [of radar reflections] is achieved. In addition, those wing leading edge devices present challenges for [stealth] signature control.”

“Engines are going to be one of the long poles in the tent here,” says one of the U.S. analysts. “ It is unclear if in fact the aircraft is flying with the interim [117S] supercruise engine or just the AL-31FP’s like those in the Su-30MKI/MKA/MKM for the initial flights. The [refined supercruise] engine likely won’t be ready for several years to come, well beyond even IOC [initial operating capability].”

U.S. expectations are that the aircraft will undergo several more flight safety tests at Komsomolsk before testing shifts to Ramenskoye Flight test Center nearer Moscow to begin the test and development program. Estimates from U.S. officials are that the move will come in 6-8 weeks.

Senior Russian leadership have said that the first jet will be delivered to Lipetsk in 2013 where all new aircraft and upgrades to existing aircraft are thoroughly tested.

“Lipetsk will function as a sort of Nellis, sort of Edwards, sort of Eglin to wring out the jet, develop some basic combat employment doctrine and methodology, and write the flight manuals and weapons employment manuals,” the U.S. analyst says. “ Finally, they’ll train the initial IP [instructor pilot] cadre for the first line unit that will receive the jet -- probably 18-24 months after the first one arrives at Lipetsk. Whether they are able to meet the 2013 timeline is debatable, and depends on the success of the testing to come in the near term, the financial commitment the Russian government – and India’s government for that matter -- puts behind it, and, last but not least, whether there are any accidents."

For one perspective from India, see Bill Sweetman's post from Singapore yesterday, India Boost For T-50.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Juggi G »

Image
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

curious to see pics of cockpit instruments and HUD panels.

it appears that it has space for the two inlets to move slightly away from each other or lower the openings to give the S shape.

ref: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ns_Bay.jpg
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

Some interesting facts ::
Prospective complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) is in the sky. Fifth-generation fighter - not just a new aircraft. These are new machines and devices, composite materials, radar systems and engines created for Russian enterprises.

Su-47 Berkut - combat aircraft with swept back wings. In the 90 years he mistakenly called fifth-generation fighter. Many countries have tried to make a similar, but the problem of destructive load on the wing could be solved only in Russia.

"It was a unique work, but unfortunately he did not go in the series. However, this aircraft was manufactured, such an aircraft with wing-swept composite no one else has," - said Vladimir Vikulin, General Director of the CVTS " Technology.

"Berkut" exists in a single copy, is now flying laboratory for testing new technologies. In Su-47 has no future, but he gave life to another plane - the fifth generation fighter with the code T-50.

"Companies within the Group, producing products and components for the fifth generation fighter aircraft - about 70% belong to the PAK FA aircraft, which made its maiden flight", - says Director General of Civil Rostekhnologii Chemezov.

After the first flight of talking, if not the superiority of the Russian aircraft over the U.S., exactly the parity in the air. Who will flog the first - the main issue in modern air combat. Technology invisible "stealth" means that the plane should emit as little as possible heat and carry a minimum of metal. So close the nozzle and the blades of engines, using composite materials.

"On foreign prototypes - the F-22 Raptor and created the F-35 - Composites are widely used, more than 40%. And we are sure that in our forward-looking fighter use of these materials will be no less a figure", - notes Nikolay Vymornov, Chief technologist NPK "Composite".

At the Scientific-Production Enterprise "Technology" specially for the fifth-generation fighter developed a new carbon fiber material.

We have created a composite snap-in: it does not snap out of invarovyh metal alloys, which the West is very expensive. Invarovyh of Why? Must be very low coefficient of thermal expansion. A lightweight composite tooling, corresponds to the ratio and quality of the products to them better," - explains Vladimir Vikulin.

In the battle of two equal stealth to win the one who has a better radar system.

"When it comes to that, the sigma of our aircraft and the perceived enemy in the meter, we can effectively deal with such aircraft, even winning some dueling situation", - said Vladimir Zagorodnii, Chief Designer, Head of NIIP named after V. Tikhomirov .

Sigma - a measure of invisibility, the magnitude of the reflection beam from the enemy planes. Чем меньше сигма, тем сложнее засечь самолет. The smaller the sigma, the more difficult to detect aircraft.

Vladimir Zagorodnii lovingly examines the brainchild of his team - radar for the new fighter. There, over four thousand small receiving-transmitting elements, such technology is called AFAR - active phased array antenna.

"AFAR - the eyes and ears for the airplane, the more so for the fifth generation. It differs from passive antennas so that each channel antennas are located on the transfer of power amplifiers," - says Oleg Alexeyev, deputy chief designer of NIIP named after V. Tikhomirov.

Passive antenna control rays can not, for scanning and tracking turns himself locator. At the fifth-generation fighter radar motionless, looking for and accompany themselves goal rays. If spotted by the enemy, no aerobatics not help, get out of the zone of such a radar is extremely difficult. And the T-50 will install five radars - one in front and two on each side with a phased array radar and a pair of UHF in the wings. Now at the Research Institute of Instrument Design Tikhomirova just experienced Maintenance Mode 20-30 goals. The potential for AFAR, say developers, yet for decades to come.

"The fact that a price today, I have not seen a Raptor, or in the F-35", - said Vladimir Zagorodnii.

American F-22 until the T-50 was considered invincible. His ideology - to be hardly noticeable for ground radar. Ideology "Sukhov Fighters - Raptor detect earlier and more effectively fight in close combat. To improve the maneuverability of fighter plane equipped with new engines with thrust vector control.

"He has another attraction, and other adjustments, applied a number of fundamentally different design solutions. But the main thing - it is a different regulatory system," - says Ilya Fedorov, managing director of NPO Saturn, Deputy Director General of the Criminal Code "JDC".

The new engine Saturn - the development of the power unit with an index of 117, is the heart of Su-35. The engine of the fifth generation is being improved, resources and traction. Although already in the first flight of the T-50 has demonstrated its power - the rise was almost vertical. And now a fighter ready to go at supersonic speeds without the Fast and the Furious.

"This plane can go out on such a regime in the process of refinement and testing. But it is a question for the plane, but not to the engine. The engine provides all of this," - says Ilya Fedorov.

The plane took off from the airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur - the first prototype. Его облик еще может поменяться. His image can still change. But those devices, components and assemblies for the T-50, which have already been tested on the ground, soon to rise in the air on the new prototype.

"Commence negotiations, and in the near future, I hope, will sign an agreement establishing a joint India-Russia aircraft of the fifth generation. And this aircraft will be jointly sold by us abroad", - said Sergei Chemezov.

And perhaps in the future, T-50 and F-22 converge in a training battle, and it becomes clear who now reigns in the air.
Original is here.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Singha »

And the T-50 will install five radars - one in front and two on each side with a phased array radar and a pair of UHF in the wings

we have seen diagrams of the proposed wing radar panels on su35. what is their main
utility - do they increase the azimuth of the radar coverage or some kind of datalink/jamming
function.

wrt to the UHF is this a airborne version of the "bistatic/meter wave" radar (whatever that means) consisting of pointy truck mounted antennas the Czechs developed and the chinese
love these days?

from the wiki entry of UHF, sounds like it is meter wave.
Ultra high frequency (UHF) designates a range of electromagnetic waves with frequencies between 300 MHz and 3 GHz (3,000 MHz), also known as the decimetre band or decimetre wave as the wavelengths range from one to ten decimetres (10 cm to 1 metre).

if the russians succeed in using UHF to detect older gen stealth bombers like F117 and B2
and start exporting it on mig29s and flankers, these expensive american assets will be
rendered useless against major combatants (not that sher khan picks on major combatants
but iran and noko would love to have a grid of such kits)
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Igorr »

sumshyam wrote:Some interesting facts ::

We have created a composite snap-in: it does not snap out of invarovyh metal alloys, which the West is very expensive. Invarovyh of Why? Must be very low coefficient of thermal expansion. A lightweight composite tooling, corresponds to the ratio and quality of the products to them better," - explains Vladimir Vikulin.

I
Vladimir Zagorodnii lovingly examines the brainchild of his team - radar for the new fighter. There, over four thousand small receiving-transmitting elements, such technology is called AFAR - active phased array antenna.

"AFAR - the eyes and ears for the airplane, the more so for the fifth generation. It differs from passive antennas so that each channel antennas are located on the transfer of power amplifiers," - says Oleg Alexeyev, deputy chief designer of NIIP named after V. Tikhomirov.



The plane took off from the airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur - the first prototype. Его облик еще может поменяться. His image can still change. But those devices, components and assemblies for the T-50, which have already been tested on the ground, soon to rise in the air on the new prototype.
Original is here.
Some notes:
1) Invar (kind of alloy), used by the Westerners for composite skeleton. The Russian technology is based on pure composites.
2) ==over four thousand small receiving-transmitting elements== - Translation mistake, he said 'over 1500'
3) ==Его облик еще может поменяться. His image can still change.== - Within the context he means the design would be changed because the final plane will be made together with India.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

Pak-Fa to be effective against raptor, they would need to install passive sensors 360* up to around 20 Ghz range or so.

Whoever gets the first lock wins. I don't think pak-fa is any where near a configuration to handle Raptor.

Since Raptor's RCS is very very low, its detection is going to be very very difficult for the current PakFa. Unless it beats Raptor's RCS, there no point in comparing against Raptor.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

cross-post from KeyPubliashing forum ::
Unconfirmed reports indicate T-50-01 has undertaken its 2nd (successful) test flight today, [2/6] before transfer to LII, Gromov, Zhukovskii.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by asprinzl »

Its stealth. It is illusive. Its MAYA.
Avram
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Nice name!
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by suraj p »


Some notes:
1) Invar (kind of alloy), used by the Westerners for composite skeleton. The Russian technology is based on pure composites.
2) ==over four thousand small receiving-transmitting elements== - Translation mistake, he said 'over 1500'
3) ==Его облик еще может поменяться. His image can still change.== - Within the context he means the design would be changed because the final plane will be made together with India.

Just a naive question:

Are these composites more advanced to materials used on LCA. Can we say LCA composite technology is also at par with Russian and US materials. we can expect MCA would get advanced materials that go into machines like PAKFA.
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