ATV-India's N-Submarine Programme

Austin
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ATV-India's N-Submarine Programme

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2004 15:31

This Article has appeared in the latest issue of FORCE Magazine

The ATV Saga

By Prasun K Sengupta

1 ) The first functional ATV will be launched by 2007 , It will be an SSGN and displacing some 6,500 tonnes and will be a derivative of Russia's new Severodvinsk-class(yasen) SSGN.

2 ) The ATV will be a multirole platform and will be employed for carrying out long-distance interdiction and surveillance of both submerged targets as well as principal surface combatants, It will also facilitate Special Forces operations by covertly landing such forces ashore.

3 ) The ATV pressure hull will be fabricated with the HY-80 steel(sourced from Russia) as much experience was gained under the direction of P.C. Deb the then director of Naval Chemical and Metallurgical Laboratory.

4 ) The Project 670A Skat (Charlie-1 class ) was discarded by early 1990 in favor of a derived design from Yasen.Three countries are actively supplying the related technologies and weapons system off the shelf for the projected ATV fleet Russia , France and Israel.

5 ) The Prime minister heads the Steering and Funding Committee of the project which is monitored by the scientific adviser to the defence minister and DRDO chief currently Dr. V.K. Aatre , The ATV project Director is Vice Admiral D.S.P Varma , here are Six naval officers of the rank of rear admiral who runs the various segments of the programme such as weapons system, platform management system, combat management system, acoustic signature management and sonars, Integrated powerplant/Propulsion system and communication/electronic warfare while two other rear admirals head the two large ,state-owned manufacturing facilities.

6 ) One such facility is in Hyderabad to collaborate with the DRDO lab, BHEL for nuclear powerplants heat exchanger system and Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd for special steel requirements , The second is a large ship building facility tucked behind High walls and barbed wires with a dry dock and boilers, at Vishakapatnam where the first ATV hull is being fabricated. with imported HY-80 steel.

7 ) In addition the Navy has Russian designed facility - The Special safety Service - at Vishakapatnam that can monitor the health of people working on the SSGN and the radiation leaks emanating from the vessel .there is also a small complex at Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic research at Kalpakkam near Chennai.

8 ) The Two 90-megawatt pressurised water reactors (PWR) procured from Russia four years ago are dynamically tested both onshore and offshore.One of them will eventually be sealed into a 600-tonne titanium shell of about 10m in diameter that will be lowered into the ATV pressure hull in what will be a critical operation.

9 ) To support the project , several national universities and both public and private sector manufacturing companies have been employed on an ad hoc basis, including Larsen and Toubro Ltd for designing and fabricating the power plant modules, MDL for building the propulsion system modules , BEL for the platform sensors and communications system, TCS for integration of ATV combat and platform management system, which will be imported from Armaris of France and be identical to those installed on the 12 Scorpene-class diesel electric submarine (SSK) the navy plans to acquire in the future. Russian assistance has been substantial by way of off-the-shelf supply of the main reactors plus related structural parts and overall design inputs.

10 ) The ATV will feature double-hull construction ,dramatically increasing the reserve buoyancy by as much as three times over that of a single-hull vessel.Ballast tanks and other gear will be located between the inner and outer hulls and limber holes will be provided for the free-flooding sections between the hulls. The ATV pressure hull will have seven compartment and the standoff distance between the outer and inner hulls will be considerable,reducing the possibility of inner hull damage . The retractable masts viewed from bow to stern will include an optronic periscope , one surface search navigation radar and one low level air defence radar, radio and satellite communication antennae,plus one integrated electronic warfare suite. The ATV pressure hull will be rated for a diving depth to 600m , The SSGN will carry sufficient supplies for an endurance of 100 days and will be operated by a crew compliment of 70 , The outer hull's anechoic and vibration damping coatings along with other advanced quitening techniques will be supplied off the shelf by Russia. Present plans call for producing an initial two ATV with a projected fleet strength of five by 2025.


PROPULSION SYSTEM

11 ) Initally navy planners wanted to design the ATV as a near-exact replica of the Project 670A Skat SSGN , but with a BARC designed and built PWR for propulsion , Three different types of indigenous reactor design were considered.A water-cooled water moderated reactor was designed by BARC and its core had 248-252 fuel assemblies. The fuel was uranium-aluminium-dispersed fuel (cermet) in steel or zirconium cladding. However the first design was rejected in late 1976, The second in 1979 and third in 1981. Despite this BARC succeeded in fabricating a pilot PWR in the early 1990, In late December 1995 it was reported that the DRDO had made considerable progress in the design of a pre-test capsule (PTC) of titanium steel, fabricated in 1994 by L&T at hazira in Gujarat.from there it was transferred to Kalpakkam , the PTC containing the BARC-built pilot PWR was to be have been installed in the ATV final shell, and had a hull dia of 10 meter, Both the PTC and the pilot PWR were unsuccessfully tested at Kalpakkam in Nov-Dec 1995, failures were caused by several integration and fabrication problems , In June 1996 the programme reportedly suffered further setbacks following additional failed tests of PWR. Problems in fabricating the containment vessel also occurred.

12 ) On 5 October 2000 after India and Russia inked an agreement on a news blackout on sensitive information exchanges in the area of defense and nuclear co-operation and appointed watchdogs to enforce compliance with the new agreement.Moscow agreed to supply an initial two VM-5 PWR and related propulsion and machinery off-the shelf, These arrived at Vishakapatnam in late 2000.The ATV will have double layer silencing system for the power train , The main propulsion machinery will consist of VM-5, with an OK-650b high density reactor core rated at 90mWand a GT3A turbine developing 35mW , Two auxiliary diesels rated at 750hp will provide emergency power,the nuclear propulsion system will drive a sever-blade fixed- pitch propeller and provide a maximum submerged speed of 33 knots and a surface speed of 10 knots , A reserve propeller system, powered by two motors rated at 370kw, will provide a speed of 4 knots.

13 ) The PWR fuel will be uranium-aluminum dispersed fuel (cermet) in steel or zirconium cladding, The main challenge faced for the design of certain safety features in submarine nuclear reactors is the design of control rods insertion and withdrawal mechanism.Throughout 1980, India tried in vain to buy a rod worth minimiser (RWM) used by reactor operators to guide and monitor the proper sequence for the withdrawal and insertion of control rods, The control rod technology for use with the RWM has since been developed indigenously.

WEAPONS FIT

14 ) The ATV will pack quite a punch with six torpedo tubes of 533mm diameter , which will be able to fire wake-homing , acoustic , and high-speed wire guided torpedoes reportedly the Russian TEST-71MKE and TEST-71ME-NK model and the Franco-Italian Black Shark, along with eight vertically launched missiles launched under water from launcher cells mounted aft of the SSGN conning tower, The principal conventional offensive armament of the ATV will comprise up to 12 3M-14E subsonic cruise missile for both antiship strikes and land attack developed by Russia's Ekaterinburg-based Novator Experimental Machine Design Bureau. equipped with a active radar seeker developed by ST Petersburg-based Radar-MMS the 3M-14E will be fired from the ATV's 533mm torpedo tubes and have a range of 275 km , The missile incidentally was first unveiled in New Delhi at the Defexpo-2004 early last february.

15 ) The ATV will also have the ability to carry up to eight ready to launch vertically launched "Strategic" cruise missile each with a range of 800 Km that will be armed with nuclear warhead, Although DRDO's ADE and DARE have since 1990 been trying to develop such a cruse missile called "SAGARIKA" it was decided in November-2003 that the ADE and DARE would co-developwith RAFAEL of Israel such a cruise missile and its vertical launched canister,inertial guidance, launch-control and solid-fuel rocket booster systems.The miniaturized nuclear warhead for the missile will however be developed solely by BARC and DRDO. The nuclear-tipped missile will be kept disassembled on-shore in peacetime and be deployed on the ATV only during "extreme national emergencies"

CMS and SENSORS

16 ) The ATV combat management system (CMS) will be a derivative of the SUBTICS system, developed by ARMARIS for the Scorpene class SSK, The periscope with an optronic mast will be supplied by SAGEM of France.The Mid/LOW Frequency active/passive sonar suite is now being developed by DRDO under its "PANCHENDRIYA" programme, The definative sonar model called " USHUS" is being developed by DRDO's Kochis- based NPOL and will be series produced by state owned BEL, Underwater Omnidirectional transducers have been developed by DRDO's Pune based ARDE , The transducers are 60mm hollow spherical elements fabricated from lead zirconate titanate type-4 material. The integrated electronic warfare system of Israels 4CH(V)2 TIMNEX II while Elta electronics will provide the I-Band surface search radar. The ATV VLF communication suite will be built by BEL.

An Interim Solution

17 ) For training the first type rated crew for manning the first ATV , the navy has decided to lease for a three-year period from Rosoboronexport FSUE and at a cost of US300 Million , One project 971A (Shuka-B) or Akula-II class SSGN . This SSGN will be 110m long and displace upto 12,770 tonnes, It will have a maximum speed of 35 knots submerged with a maximum diving depth of 600m, The leased SSGN will be armed with TEST-71ME-NK and TEST -71MKE electric remote control homing torpedoes plus the KALIBRPLE weapon system and will include 12 3M-14E and Novtar built 3m54E Klub-S supersonic anti-ship missile , These missile will be launched from the SSGN six 533mm launch tubes . A 250 strong group of navy personnel has been undergoing type conversion on an Akula II class SSGN at Komsomolsk-on-Amur since late last year.

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Postby JTull » 09 Aug 2004 15:43

Finally! Some information in the public domain.

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 15:58

very interesting thanks Austin for tying it out painstakingly.

now is the time for me to produce parts of a Janes missiles and rockets
article on 3M14E.

JANE'S MISSILES AND ROCKETS - AUGUST 01, 2004

Novator shows Club land-attack cruise missile
Miroslav Gyürösi

The Yekaterinburg-based Novator design bureau has displayed the latest
3M14E
subsonic land-attack cruise missile for the Club-S/Club-N naval missile
system, writes Miroslav Gyürösi. The missile exists in two versions -
the
3M14E for submarine-launch and the 3M14TE for surface ships.

Designed to be fired from standard 533mm torpedo tubes, the missile is
almost identical in shape to that of the Club-S/Club-N 3M54E1 anti-ship
missile. Pre-launch preparation and handling are done using the same
hardware as is used for the other missiles of the Club-S/Club-N system.

The only difference between the two land-attack variants is that the
3M14E
can be launched from a depth of 30-40m below the sea surface, while the
3M14TE surface ship version is compatible with vertical or slant launch
from
the TPS (transportno-puskovoy stakan) transport-launching container.


The 3M14E and 3M14TE are intended for use against stationary ground
targets
such as administrative and economic centres, weapon and petrochemical
storage areas, command posts, seaports, and airports. Once the mission
data
needed by the mid-course navigation system has been prepared, it is
loaded
into the missile's onboard computer prior to launch.

Both versions are launched under the power of a tandem solid-propellant
rocket booster fitted with four small lattice stabilisers. Once the
missile
has reached flying speed, it is powered by a small turbojet engine.

For most of the flight to the target area, the missile flies
autonomously,
following the pre-programmed route and turning points. Once over land,
it
uses a terrain-following flight path that will make it a difficult
target
for enemy air defences. This low-level flight mode poses a higher load
on
the wings and missile structure than flight over the sea surface, so
the
land-attack missile has slightly redesigned wings of shorter span and
deeper
chord, plus a stronger structure. A jam-resistant radar seeker is used
for
the final attack phase.


3M14E cruise missile basic characteristics
Missile length - 6,200mm
Missile diameter - 534mm
Missile launching weight - 1,770kg
Range - Up to 275km
Flight altitude over sea surface - 20m
Flight altitude over ground surface - 50-150m
Missile flight speed - 650-865km/h

3M14TE cruise missile basic characteristics
Missile length with TPS container - 8,916mm
TPS container diameter - 645mm
Missile weight together with TPS container - 3,205kg
Range - Up to 275km
Flight altitude over sea surface - 20m
Flight altitude over ground surface - 50-150m
Missile flight speed 650-865km/h

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 16:04

Austin your post rates as the most important on BR in 2004 in my book.

very soon the feeding frenzy will start. A star is born.

Brjingos please note, inspite of massive and prolonged problems and
failures they stuck to the task -- indicates decisive PMO buy-in across
regimes and esp. a keen work by NDA to get the wheels unstuck.

Bravo ABV, YS, JS and GF :twisted: :twisted: history will be kind to you.
the nation has a debt to you.

Sverodobinsk derivative means advanced hull form, quieting techniques, advanced prop design, and readymade underwater VLS tech. A quad pack of the mighty Type65 wake homer would have been nice ...but cant have everything....enough to bite the rear end off a CVN in one chomp :evil:

My rough guess at torpedo room capacity is 20-22 weapons based on
6500t being same as older LA class boats. 12 3M14E leaves room for
8-10 torps. Loadout may vary ofcourse. A full load looks enough to wipe
a small low-end navy (like PN :cry: ) right off the table in a 2-week hunt.
I think something like 6 ASM + 16 torps is a more realistic loadout.
Last edited by Rudra on 09 Aug 2004 18:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 16:22

e-business monitor: Dockers raised guidance today based on a unexpected surge in futures orders of brown khakis in the IOR rim.

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Postby max » 09 Aug 2004 16:37

After reading this report I m more exicted than our TSP friends when they heard of the Winder flying I want to jump green but hell we yindoos cant do that

ATV on its way, but ATV was supposed to be the part of nuclear triad isn't it

The ATV will also have the ability to carry up to eight ready to launch vertically launched "Strategic" cruise missile each with a range of 800 Km that will be armed with nuclear warhead, Although DRDO's ADE and DARE have since 1990 been trying to develop such a cruse missile called "SAGARIKA" it was decided in November-2003 that the ADE and DARE would co-developwith RAFAEL of Israel such a cruise missile and its vertical launched canister,inertial guidance, launch-control and solid-fuel rocket booster systems.The miniaturized nuclear warhead for the missile will however be developed solely by BARC and DRDO. The nuclear-tipped missile will be kept disassembled on-shore in peacetime and be deployed on the ATV only during "extreme national emergencies"


But the strategic missiles and nuclear weapons would be stored on shore in disassembled form as per the article which would negate their purpose because then they are a priority target for any one who decided to do the dirty. Second stike option is only plausible when the adversary doesn't know our options, it is here the significance of submarine mounted weapons lie.

Earlier reports have indicated that ATV would be SSN based on the new severodovinsk class (Bars class) of boats with secondary multirole capability but this article clearly indicates that they would be SSGN that means they had clear cut role of influencing land battles with their land attack missiles would this be impediment because IMHO SSGN are no way the hunter killers that Indian navy needs to complement the aircraft carrier group

please comment

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Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2004 16:37

Thanks Rudra , yes typing was painful , specially during office hours hiding from your bosses :-) and in their opinion using precious office time for other purposes , But I think the real credit goes to Prasun K Sengupta , I think he has done a marvolus JOB , even his previous article on p-15A was a good one , so all credit goes to him and force magazine for bringing such a Jem of an article .

PS : Rudra are you Indian1973 on key publishing forum

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 16:42

Austin, yes.

dont worry about the SSN/SSGN naming . the LA 688 class started at
6900 tons without VLS, later they added 8 cell TLAM vls to push it above
7000t. Virginia is 7500t, Seawolf 9000t, Akula 9000t. Having option of
carrying some LAMs doesnt restrict its operational role or mobility in any
fashion.

about the nukes, india will always loudly proclaim a recessed posture.
what they do behind closed shamiana is another matter.

quite obviously a SSN cannot come back to load missiles after a first
strike on indian soil...the port could be a shambles. so some weapons
have to be kept onboard.

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Postby Jagan » 09 Aug 2004 16:55

Good job Austin for posting it.

Also to give credit where it is due - Good job of FORCE to get this piece out. This is the kind of stuff expected out of def publications..

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Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2004 16:55

So I guessed it right :), SSGN is a cold war phenomena , I think OSCAR II will be last of SSGN we will see , In the future all major navy will have SSBN and SSGN , Every new SSN in the future Yasen, Baracudda , Astute and Virginia will have credible land attack capability , Gone are the days of dedicated SSGN .

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Postby Sai.U » 09 Aug 2004 17:22

Thanks austin.

Great article. Leaves you hanging on the indigenous propulsion issue though. Prognosis on BARC PWR? is it going to be ready for the remaining four ATVs? or will there be more Roosi reactors.

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Postby Nandai » 09 Aug 2004 17:44

Austin wrote:So I guessed it right :), SSGN is a cold war phenomena , I think OSCAR II will be last of SSGN we will see , In the future all major navy will have SSBN and SSGN , Every new SSN in the future Yasen, Baracudda , Astute and Virginia will have credible land attack capability , Gone are the days of dedicated SSGN .


Both yes and no, the Oscars will probably be the last class SSGN built from scratch to act as such, but the 4 Ohios which will rebuilt as SSGN will probably serve a longer time than the Oscars/II.

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Postby John » 09 Aug 2004 17:50

Quite weird the weight differential Klub 14E and 14TE i believe the jane's figures for land variant includes the weight of the canister. Anyway I wonder how land attack brahmos fit in this scheme which was revleaed a few mths back. As for ATV not always deploying sagarika it could that the missile's weight affects armament and performance of the ATV and hence it will only be fitted when necessary,

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Postby Cybaru » 09 Aug 2004 18:06

Popeye Turbo, which was tested sometime back in the indian ocean ??

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/mi ... peye-t.htm

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Postby JTull » 09 Aug 2004 18:24

This amazing explosion of information confirms few things that I always insisted:
1. It will have missile bays that can launch missile vertically and not thru torpedo tubes as is the case with kilo modifications for Klub. I thought it would be ballistic missiles, but it seems it would be cruise missiles. The 1400Km range cruise missile tests that India facilitated for Israel few years ago were indeed in return for launch technology.

2. The choice of cruise missiles indicates the confidence in the miniaturisation of our warheads.

3. The thought process in keeping the nuclear warheads in recess on shore is in line with my thoughts. This boat will have all the features that any nuclear sub will have and it will serve to validate the technology and doctrine. Once we have confidence and are able to manage trouble free operation for couple of years, the warheads will be carried on the boat. This is the only prudent course of action you'd expected from professionals. Imagine facing a propulsion emergency 6 months after commissioning and you lose 12 warheads sitting at the bottom of Bay of Bengal with the USN subs sniffing around.

4. This has confirmed publicly for the first time that first BARC designs for the reactor started in 1970s. I'm surprised at the inability of DAE to produce a working reactor but I'm confident that they'll learn from what the Russians have given us. It is indeed comendable on the part of NDA govt. to be able to negotiate with the Russians to part with 2 ready made reactors.

5. One of the most awaited confirmations for me is to know that Scorpene deal is indeed a prime mover towards the soft technologies that go into ATV in the form of electronics for control systems, communications, weapons stations, etc.

It is a pleasure to know that previous govt. was able to weave together a significant package with three of our nations friends after we went publically nuclear.

More analysis later.

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Postby Katare » 09 Aug 2004 18:55

Can't thank you enough Austin, read it twice but still trying to sink in all the info in that piece......awesome news. After Arjun now ATV looks like is moving towards its logical end. 8)

Collaboration, cooperation and off the shelf are the ‘keys’ to get the nagging tech issue solved to users satisfaction quickly! :idea:

I am proud of our DRDO for seeking, finding and accepting help; it takes an open-minded, dynamic, confident and brave institution to do that! (I need a clapping emoticon here)

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 18:59

:twisted: and coming public indicates a degree of confidence that sanctions or other such trickery is off the table and 'powers that be' already know and have made their peace with God on this.

Best morning I have had all year...that aggressive cat icon was a great idea.

two photos of the 3M-14E is posted here:
http://forum.airforces.info/showthread.php?t=29741

I think the missile in background of 2nd photo is Brahmos-A.

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Postby merlin » 09 Aug 2004 19:09

I'm both disappointed and satisfied.

Satisfied that at last there is some information (that appears credible) on the ATV. If details prove to be true, Force goes some way towards redeeming itself in my eyes.

Disappointed because after all these years we couldn't get a sub reactor going. Also, in my newbie eyes and at first reading the reactor doesn't appear very advanced, but that's what we would get by buying off the shelf. I would have wanted a nice natural circulation, low noise reactor for my boat.

Also displacement seems to be a bit too low for all that its going to carry. Remember that it has a double hull.

But, what do I know.

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Postby merlin » 09 Aug 2004 19:14

Lots of questions: Why two reactors? What happened to the "plans" for one 190 MW PWR? Or maybe that was just that DDM Rahul Bedi?

What happened to the 9K+ tons of displacement? Or maybe that was just that DDM Rahul Bedi?

Doesn't matter how much of the technology is bought off the shelf (or co-developed and now fully our design and manufacture), just get the damn thing skulking around everywhere.

Why 2007? This BR jingo wants it next year.
:P

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 19:55

OK So inspired by Merlin I believe have found a typo. the VM-5 plant is
what the Akula uses and so does the charlie perhaps a older model.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/971.htm

The main propulsion machinery consists of a VM-5 pressure water reactor with a model OK-650 b high-density reactor core rated at 190 MW with a GT3A turbine developing 35 MW. Some sources credit Akula with two reactors, but it appears that the Akula has only one reactor, as opposed to older Russian subs, which had two. Two auxiliary diesels rated at 750 hp provide emergency power. The propulsion system drives a seven bladed fixed pitch propeller. The propulsion system provides a maximum submerged speed of 33 knots and a surface speed of 10 knots. A reserve propeller system, powered by two motors rated at 370 kw, provides a speed of 3 to 4 knots. The submarine is rated for a diving depth to 600 meters. The submarine carries sufficient supplies for an endurance of 100 days and is operated by a complement of 73 crew.


every last bit other than 73 crew (70 crew) is a carbon copy of the
Akula powerplant specs!! Akula also has a double hull.

btw look at the article. the lines about double hull, reserve buoyancy, limber holes look like being lifted from FAS.

So did Sengupta have some info and was pointed to FAS for the rest
of specs or this is some tier-1 type PSYOPS to throw stone into pond and
see who moves ?

have to be cautious in believing it all, esp as some lines match word for word from FAS. it could be a fishing expedition with Sawhney at the back to see how GOI responds.


Last edited by Rudra on 09 Aug 2004 20:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Arun_S » 09 Aug 2004 19:58

Fantastic. Need time to chew & cud.

As for power plant and strategic missile All I say is that:
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
Or as my late friend used to say A br***t in hand is worth two in the blouse. :twisted:

Mushy and Dragon fangs get ready to be chopped.
Last edited by Arun_S on 09 Aug 2004 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JTull » 09 Aug 2004 20:03

merlin wrote:Lots of questions: Why two reactors? What happened to the "plans" for one 190 MW PWR? Or maybe that was just that DDM Rahul Bedi?


As the article says, there will be two boats made at the same time. One reactor for each would be the natural conclusion.

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Postby Rupak » 09 Aug 2004 20:06

Sengupta is a well known plagarist.
He did an article on the IAF some years ago, where he lifted my article on the IAF word for word. Fellow didn't even bother to change a comma!

So, I would be very careful about what I believe in his writings!

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 20:10

whatever little is there on Yasen(Svero) class on net assigns OK-650B
as the reactor of around 190MW. so that matches. I think the same core can perhaps be run at different utilizations to fit different thrust needs.

So maybe he didnt have any details on the real powerplant and took
his best guess at it which comes to the well documented Akula.
Last edited by Rudra on 09 Aug 2004 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sghosh » 09 Aug 2004 20:12

Need some Clarifications here

Although DRDO's ADE and DARE have since 1990 been trying to develop such a cruse missile called "SAGARIKA" it was decided in November-2003 that the ADE and DARE would co-developwith RAFAEL of Israel such a cruise missile and its vertical launched canister,inertial guidance, launch-control and solid-fuel rocket booster systems


What, I know SAGARIKA is a Ballistic Missile. And is based on Prithvi missile system. Can someone give more details ?

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Postby Ravinder » 09 Aug 2004 20:25

Sghosh, the SAGARIKA could be a SLBM or even a SLCM, none here can really prove it is either.

As for this article, I don't believe much of the info, but this information spreading around the net won't be that bad. :D
Last edited by Ravinder on 09 Aug 2004 20:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ATV-India's N-Submarine Programme

Postby Cybaru » 09 Aug 2004 20:26

Austin wrote:6 ) The second is a large ship building facility tucked behind High walls and barbed wires with a dry dock and boilers, at Vishakapatnam where the first ATV hull is being fabricated. with imported HY-80 steel.


Thats the only thing in the article one can be sure off...

I don't think that IN would release any details till the boat finishes trials.

Good read though ...

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Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2004 20:39

Both yes and no, the Oscars will probably be the last class SSGN built from scratch to act as such, but the 4 Ohios which will rebuilt as SSGN will probably serve a longer time than the quotOscars/II.


Thanks for correcting me Nandai as expected :) , as i said it before Oscar is the last sub to be built from scratch , Quite a formidable opponent with those deadly Shipwreck(SS-N-19)AShM missile , The converted Ohio has some interesting capability it can launch up to 154 Tomahawk missiles a signficant increase in capability as compared to other platform,the 22 missile tubes also will will provide the capability to carry other payloads like unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) and special forces equipment , it can also support fully equipped 66 Navy SEAL. Now thats some capability.

Merlin as i understand it each ATV will carry a single 90mW reactor , what i understand is that the First 2 ATV will have a Russian reactor and the remaining 3 n Indian one , It also proves we have some way to go as far as building a minutarised reactor is concerned , But I expect the Indian reactor a lot better than the Russian one in terms of higher megawatt, compactness , and ease of maintenance .

2007 is just the launch date , It is expected to be commisioned by 2010 per the article , I guess it will take 2 years for sea trials and installation of various elecronics and systems.

9k of displacement is just too much in Indian context , particular when we are building N-sub for the first time , may be later version of ATV will have a bigger displacement,at present between 5000-7000tons looks more likely.

One can always look at an article specially on Top secret project like ATV with some degree of suspicion, But its the first article I had come across that looks more credible , I think Prasun K Sengupta deserves credit for doing a well researched article , even his previous article on P-15A was a well researched one , of course one can always dispute on certain issues in the article , more so if its a defence related one , since every one wants to guard its secret , But by and large both the article were good and well researched and This Guy and Force deserves a good deal of credit.

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Postby sudeep » 09 Aug 2004 20:44

Isnt Russia part of the Nuclear Suppliers Group ? I find it difficult to believe that when we are having so much trouble in getting civilian nuclear power plants from Russia (conditions are we have to accept full IAEA safeguards on ALL our power plants, not just the new ones), Russia would part with a miniaturized power plant for a nuclear sub. Other stuff about steel and collaboration with Israel might be true, but the reactors is kinda hard to believe, esp when it comes from the farce and a known bullshitter. Yeh Sen Gupta sabko ch***a bana raha hai.

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 20:49

Sudeep, where do we produce our N-bomb materials from power reactors ? did we accept these IAEA conditions - coz I believe the reactor delivery has started ?

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Postby sudeep » 09 Aug 2004 21:02

Rudra Singha wrote:Sudeep, where do we produce our N-bomb materials from power reactors ? did we accept these IAEA conditions - coz I believe the reactor delivery has started ?


The N-Bomb material is from reactors that were procured before the NSG was formed. The Kudankolum (spelling ?) reactors were supplied by Russia by using a defunct contract signed way back in 1988 (frm memory ??). So both the parties could dissemble and say that the contract was signed before the protocol came into force. The contract also contained an option for purchsing two mroe reactors, which was taken. As of today, India CAN NOT purchase ANY NEW civilian nuclear reactors (or technology for Civilian Nuke power plants) from ANY source UNLESS we accept FULL IAEA safeguards on ALL our nuke power plants. (DHRUV, CIRUS included).

If we cant buy even civilian nuke power plants, I find it difficult to believe that Russia would part with two military nuke power plants. Sometime back Russia floated the fantastic idea of floating power plants for India to get arnd the NSG rules, it was turned down. Ofcourse, its possible that Russia has decided to stand up to the NSG, but for what reasons ? Is India more important to their strategic plans or countries in the NSG ? One can arrive at differing answers to this question, but thats in the realm of speculation.

The other details in the article such as double hull, weight, weapons etc *may* be correct, its possible that the fellow learnt about these from his sources and decided to fill in the rest with his imagination.
Last edited by sudeep on 09 Aug 2004 21:45, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Vivek K » 09 Aug 2004 21:10

Are we sure that DRDO's reactors have failed? There were murmurs that the DRDO reactors were successful (I do not have a source) and had been mated to the L&T hull that was tested a couple of years ago.

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Postby Kapil » 09 Aug 2004 21:33

What BR Mumbai wonders about-- the rest picks up :)
8)
Jolly Good,Austin old chap.

-- Kapil

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Postby NRao » 09 Aug 2004 21:34

Would have helped a ton if the author had said what was guestimated and what was not. And was a typo too.

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 21:43

russia cant be very happy with the NSG. they stand to make a
ton of money selling power plants to india and suddenly they cant under the NSG. supplying a couple of one-off items (like the initial few cryogenic engines, PWR) officially-unofficially may be their way of clipping the NSGs wings ....same way china uses proliferation to clip Unkils wings. lease of Akula2
which is reported from multiple sources also falls under that irritate Unkil theory.

My guess it will be like Brahmos proj....i,e, whatever is supplied will be thoroughly indigenised and local sourced so that others cant raise fingers about supply of systems (only sub-systems supplied in batches ;)) ..and will be safeguarded against sanctions later by this local manufacture.

Our own reactor was supposed to be based on a Charlie design reactor whose plans Russia had supplied. brief searching on net confirms charlie had the same family of reactor - the name is the same. search for VM-5
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/670.htm

So most probably increased russian 'help' to make this
VM-5-mki operational was obtained below table in 2000.
such 'help' in the form of internship by experienced design
bureau people, small subsystems slipped into the cracks
of AN124s delivering parts to HAL..is nearly impossible to track far less 'control/punish/manage'.

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Postby Nandai » 09 Aug 2004 21:46

Rudra Singha wrote:two photos of the 3M-14E is posted here:
http://forum.airforces.info/showthread.php?t=29741

I think the missile in background of 2nd photo is Brahmos-A.


Rudra, which one do you mean should be the Brahmos-A? Do you mean the one just to the left of the one in focus, the one with a greyish slightly pointed nose? That one is also a member of the Clubfamily, see here at the bottom of the page,

http://www.wonderland.org.nz/rnss.htm

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Postby JTull » 09 Aug 2004 22:01

sudeep wrote:Isnt Russia part of the Nuclear Suppliers Group ? I find it difficult to believe that when we are having so much trouble in getting civilian nuclear power plants from Russia (conditions are we have to accept full IAEA safeguards on ALL our power plants, not just the new ones), Russia would part with a miniaturized power plant for a nuclear sub. Other stuff about steel and collaboration with Israel might be true, but the reactors is kinda hard to believe, esp when it comes from the farce and a known bullshitter. Yeh Sen Gupta sabko ch***a bana raha hai.


This is not true. Stop spreading this cr@p.

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Postby JTull » 09 Aug 2004 22:03

Vivek K wrote:Are we sure that DRDO's reactors have failed? There were murmurs that the DRDO reactors were successful (I do not have a source) and had been mated to the L&T hull that was tested a couple of years ago.


DRDO never makes the such research reactors. Various labs of DAE (Dept of Atomic Energy) do.

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Postby sudeep » 09 Aug 2004 22:05

bansal wrote:
sudeep wrote:Isnt Russia part of the Nuclear Suppliers Group ? I find it difficult to believe that when we are having so much trouble in getting civilian nuclear power plants from Russia (conditions are we have to accept full IAEA safeguards on ALL our power plants, not just the new ones), Russia would part with a miniaturized power plant for a nuclear sub. Other stuff about steel and collaboration with Israel might be true, but the reactors is kinda hard to believe, esp when it comes from the farce and a known bullshitter. Yeh Sen Gupta sabko ch***a bana raha hai.


This is not true. Stop spreading this cr@p.


Bansal g, dont turn this into a flame war, sections of sen gupta articles that he has plagiarized have been posted on this thread, as for NSG and what it means for India, just do a google on NSG, India and Russia and you'll find loads of stuff. If you have any sources that you can cite, please do so, I am willing to be corrected, otoh if its just this warm fuzzy feeling that you have, please check things on google before you post.

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Postby Rudra » 09 Aug 2004 22:08

sudeep and bansal it can be interpreted either way:

see the 7th para from the bottom
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1514/15140890.htm

a few paras above Unkil was saying what sudeep is saying but thats Unkil not the whole NSG. russia used the loophole Sudeep pointed out and apparently only the site will be under IAEA inspection.

So that leaves open the question of whether further deals signed now is possible....the "law" is not useful...all depends on how strong Russia is economically to stand upto Unkil.
Last edited by Rudra on 09 Aug 2004 22:10, edited 1 time in total.


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