AMCA News and Discussions

NRao
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 04 Jan 2011 06:21

indranilroy,

The intake seems to be covered by some thing:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/332 ... G_0122.JPG

This photo:

http://www.sawf.org/Newsphotos/Blogphot ... a_2009.jpg

I am not sure, but is that a flap of sorts at the mouth of the intakes?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2011 06:46

^^^ thanks, that could be an explanation :)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Christopher Sidor » 05 Jan 2011 14:04

While we are debating the avionics, engine and weapon systems, one thing is getting ignored. The airframe. Since AMCA is going to be stealth capable, it drastically reduces the material from which the airframe can be manufactured.

The reason I bring up the stealth question, is that Stealth is big, in fact a major factor in American calculations. The reason is not hard to seek. America will face after this decade, i.e. 2011-20, opponents which will be able to field a bigger airforce and navy than it possesses. Currently its military is already smaller. To overcome this deficiency of numbers America will rely on technology and tactics. In the technology sphere, stealth is essential, because it permits its fighters to operate without detection. In this age of over the horizon engagements, this is indeed a capability which gives one a leg up. It helps the fighter to survive an engagement, so that it can live one more day and inflict one more day of pain on its adversary.

Currently India has less than 50 fighter squadrons in IAF. As our armed forces are a function of our economic strength, we can assume that with time, our number of IAF fighter squadrons will increase along with bomber squadrons and air-lift capability. While we currently face a numerically superior threat, even if we ignore the fact that china cannot field its entire PLAAF against India, this situation will reverse. We will be able to field a IAF numerically equal, if not bigger, in size and capability to PLAAF after this decade, i.e. 2020.

So we might not be in a position, like the Americans which will have a numerically smaller USAF compared to is main rival. If this is not the case w.r.t India, should not we be concentrating on making a more lethal and a more versatile AMCA fighter rather than concentrating on the stealth? Like concentrating on making AMCA EMP resistant, or equipping it with a better and more powerful radar, etc.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Jan 2011 18:12

^^^ the US relies heavily on network centric warfare to leverage its assets and the denial of the same to the enemy

low observability is not the only trick up their sleeves - we sometimes lose track of this 'invisible capability', but mark my words, it is what makes them so powerful

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby shukla » 26 Jan 2011 19:11

Kaveri engine to power the AMCA
The Hindu

Under development for over two decades, the indigenous fighter jet engine ‘Kaveri’ will be used for powering the home-grown fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). Being developed by DRDO’s Gas Turbine research Establishment (GTRE), the Kaveri was initially being developed for the LCA Tejas programme but now it will be used on the AMCA, which is expected to be ready by 2016-17, senior officials told PTI here.

The AMCA is a twin-engine indigenous fighter aircraft programme for which initial sanctions have already been accorded by the Defence Ministry, they added. The indigenous fighter aircraft engine programme was first started in 1986 and has suffered delays and cost over-runs. It was also marred by the technology denial regimes in the 90s. After not being able to get the desired thrust for powering fighter aircraft, the DRDO entered into a Joint Venture with the French engine manufacturers Snecma to further enhance its capabilities.

“In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 70-75 Kilo Newton but what the IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 90—95 KN. “I think with the JV with Snecma in place now, we would be able to achieve these parameters in near future,” they said. On using the Kaveri for the LCA, they said the engine would be fitted on the first 40 LCAs to be supplied to the IAF when they come for upgrades to the DRDO in the latter half of the decade.

Due to the absence of an indigenous engine, GE engines from the United States were procured to power the LCAs and recently, another tender was awarded to the American company for supplying 99 engines for the advanced version of the Tejas. On the present status of the programme, officials said the maiden flight test of the Kaveri was completed successfully during the Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow November last year. During the coming months, 50-60 test flights will be carried out to mature the engine in terms of reliability, safety and airworthiness. These trials would pave the way for further flight trials of Kaveri engine with a fighter aircraft, they added.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby karan_mc » 07 Feb 2011 09:00


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 07 Feb 2011 14:13

Will the Kaveri (95Kn) be adequate for the AMCA specially if we go for the flat nozzle that requires a powerful engine?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 07 Feb 2011 14:16

^^
For a medim weight fighter, 95 KN will be excellent. If it was a legacy fighter, then even present Kaveri with 75KN would have sufficed (Rafale comes to mind here).

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby karan_mc » 07 Feb 2011 22:42

flat nozzle will mean it will be limited to 2D TVC ?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 07 Feb 2011 22:57

karan_mc wrote:flat nozzle will mean it will be limited to 2D TVC ?

Can't really say. I have read some posts in other forums which say that PAK-FA would have 3D TVC even after flat nozzles because the engines are widely placed. Of course, the credibility of such posts are always a question. I personally have some doubts regarding these claims because I had read somewhere that flat nozzles would have to suffer from both tensile and bending stress (as opposed to only tensile stress in case of circular ones). I have little gyaan in these matters so maybe some other fellow with some understanding of these things can say more.

PS: I would personally not lose much sleep over FGFA or AMCA not having 3D TVC. IMHO, it is not such a big deal.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2011 23:16

not because it is widely spaced but because the movement is NOT in a vertical axis but one tilted to the vertical. neat bit of improvisation.
read it in a recent article by piotr butowski.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 07 Feb 2011 23:25

Rahul M wrote:not because it is widely spaced but because the movement is NOT in a vertical axis but one tilted to the vertical. neat bit of improvisation.
read it in a recent article by piotr butowski.

You mean like MKI?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2011 23:29

does it move like that in the MKI, I though it only moved in the vertical plane i.e about the pitch axis pitch up and down.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby hnair » 07 Feb 2011 23:34

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ the US relies heavily on network centric warfare to leverage its assets and the denial of the same to the enemy

low observability is not the only trick up their sleeves - we sometimes lose track of this 'invisible capability', but mark my words, it is what makes them so powerful


400% correct! I dare say, even if they have an opponent with stealth, that advantage would be lost if khan keeps the superiority with his networks. Again OT, but the very reason khan is not investing in Brahmos type weaponry is because of the belief (along with existing significant investments!!) that anything carrying a brahmos will be tracked and engaged much before striking distance, whereas khan's current adversary cant claim the same with confidence.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Raman » 07 Feb 2011 23:52

Is there a navy requirement for AMCA a la LCA? I recall PS saying that it would have been easier to create LCA-Navy first and only then the LCA-AirForce. It seems that this is a good opportunity to do it the other way. It would also make the navy a prime stakeholder, and the program would greatly benefit from having the increased collaboration and patronage that the navy is renown for. Lastly, it would give a clear roadmap for naval aviation for the post-29K era, whereas the IAF already has sufficient clarity on this through the PAK-FA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 08 Feb 2011 03:00

Rahul M wrote:does it move like that in the MKI, I though it only moved in the vertical plane i.e about the pitch axis pitch up and down.

The farnof guy of red flag controversy fame had mentioned that the MKI's TVC nozzles are little tilted. Also from the following link.
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html#11
Al-31FP builds on the Al-37FU with the capability to vector in 2 planes i.e. thrust can be directed side-ways also. The nozzles of the MKI are capable of deflecting 32 degrees in the horizontal plane and 15 degrees in the vertical plane. This is done by angling them inwards by 15 degrees inwards, which produces a cork-screw effect and thus enhancing the turning capability of the aircraft.

This gives MKI the unique ability to manuever in yaw axis without the use of any control surface.

PS: Are we talking about the same thing or have I completely misunderstood about what you were trying to convey regrading PAK-FA?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 08 Feb 2011 05:54

Raman wrote:Is there a navy requirement for AMCA a la LCA? I recall PS saying that it would have been easier to create LCA-Navy first and only then the LCA-AirForce. It seems that this is a good opportunity to do it the other way. It would also make the navy a prime stakeholder, and the program would greatly benefit from having the increased collaboration and patronage that the navy is renown for. Lastly, it would give a clear roadmap for naval aviation for the post-29K era, whereas the IAF already has sufficient clarity on this through the PAK-FA.


I think he said, it is easier to first complete the testing of LCA-Navy compared to LCA-IAF. LCA-Navy with extra control surface LEVCON makes the task of testing easier.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 08 Feb 2011 05:57

Gaur wrote:^^
For a medim weight fighter, 95 KN will be excellent. If it was a legacy fighter, then even present Kaveri with 75KN would have sufficed (Rafale comes to mind here).


Rafale is getting standardized on new engine known as M88-4E with increased thrust and durability.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 08 Feb 2011 11:28

VINAYAK SHETTI FOR IDRW.ORG

MCA 1.0 – Concept and initial idea for development of Twin engine based Medium combat aircraft can be traced back to late 90’s. That’s even before first flight of the LCA TD-1 had taken place, Medium combat aircraft (MCA) then was a tailless delta design with two engines, combined with a thrust vectoring control capability.

Aircraft was designed keeping in mind LCA-Tejas Delta wings and was a direct derivative from LCA , as per original idea it was supposed to have maximum spare and design commodity with Tejas at that time. Main purpose was to replace the aging Jaguar & MiG-27 fleet from the Indian Air force, original design weight was supposed to be less than 20 tonne. And was supposed to be a Strike aircraft with secondary role of a point defence fighter , In Beginning very small team of Scientist were working on it which was privately funded by ADA from its own budget, but without Tejas proving its mettle first, India air force nor Government of India was Interested to seriously consider this Proposal by ADA, till Tejas Program started gaining popularity among IAF and Defence Ministry whole MCA Project was in cold storage and put under back burner only to revived again in mid-2004-5. A twin-engine delta wing version was been shelved by ADA then.



MCA 2.0 aka Next Gen Fighter aircraft (NGFA) – MCA got a new name “Next Generation Fighter Aircraft “on recommendation from the Secretary, Defence Production. DRDO and ADA again began to work on MCA aka NGFA in Mid-2006 after initial success of Tejas and with the backing of the government. Indian Air Force asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features. larger team of scientist were assigned to work on the Program, even in this period there was no funding from the Government but a request for Proposal was asked to ascertain if the project can be viable. This was completely new design based on low observability design elements. First look at the aircraft was only available in 2009 when a wind tunnel model was displayed in Aero India 2009 for the first time; Aircraft featured Serpentine air intakes with reduced RCS, and Internal Weapons Bay.

Earlier Design of MCA (MCA 1.0) was supposed to be a 4.5 Gen aircraft with larger payload , Range and powered by two Kaveri engine, but new MCA (MCA 2.0) had added stealth elements (Semi – stealth) with frontal section getting more Stealth element and also with Reduced Cross Section (RCS) , and with Empty weight of 17 tonne along with 2 tonne internal Weapons and 4 tonne of Fuel , new MCA could have MTOW (Maximum Take of weight) of 22 tonne powered by two Kaveri thrust vectoring engine based on Snecma’s M88-3 core producing 90k of thrust .

AMCA 3.0 (Advance Medium combat aircraft) – Indian Air force after studying ADA’s Proposal and after working out its own Air Staff requirements (ASR) for the AMCA issued its ASR to DRDO and ADA in April 2010. Indian air forces ASR threw few surprises for MCA Project, like a demanding customer which IAF has been all this year came up with more stringent requirements. some of the Requirements asked by the IAF in its ASR are below and how MCA (2.0) became AMCA

1) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight.
2) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.
3) AESA Radar
4) Semi – Stealth is not an option, IAF wants it to be fully stealthy aircraft with low RCS.
5) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it stealthier
6) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars, Engines, and Avionics)

7) Multi-Role all weather stealth aircraft (Earlier idea by ADA was a Strike aircraft with other capabilities)

8 ) Twin pilot configured

ADA is currently studying the ASR put forward by Indian air force and officially will began work on AMCA in mid-2011, MCA (2.0) design will get further optimization of airframe shaping to further enhance Stealth in it, it will also get further treatment to reduce its IR Signature through Nozzle design, better Bay cooling along with reduction on exhaust temperature from the engine nozzles, special coatings for polycarbonate canopy to make AMCA India’s first stealth fighter aircraft.

ADA has asked for 18 months to further improve the Airframe changes required to meet ASR issued by the IAF, other than the wind tunnel model displayed in Aero India 2009 there are more three other variants which never has been displayed yet, DRDO is currently planning three Prototypes of AMCA and two production series trial jets which will carry out initial test flights. ADA has promised first flight of AMCA by 2017 which looks highly unlikely, since ADA will need to work on Airframe optimization first and if it fails to get better optimization on stringent requirements laid down by IAF then it might have to work on completely new design itself . $2 billion funding is set to be allocated over the next three years for its development and ADA already received initial funds to start the project.

Whole MCA program has seen many changes From a 4.5 Gen aircraft to Semi-Stealth aircraft to fully stealth aircraft.

Engine: Plans are to use Two Kaveri engine based on M88-3 (Core) , if the engines are not ready by the time for first flight either Ge’s F-414IN engines which will power Tejas MK-2 will be used or original lower thrust Kaveri engine might be used for Technology demonstrator aircrafts , still clarity on engine part will come in coming years

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 08 Feb 2011 16:39

^ Dang! Someone copied my writings and versions from BRf :(( :D Very well written. From MCA 3.0, IAF expected a full aspect stealth. MCA 2.0 is like F-35. MCA 3.0 is like F-22/PAK-FA lite or could be a Gen 6 fighter?.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Feb 2011 20:36

^^Is the skeptic allowed to put some caution? I am shit scared of these advanced requirements (from an indigenous capabilities perspective) and the gap that the ADA has to fill. Anyways, hope for the best.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 08 Feb 2011 20:41

>>I am shit scared of these advanced requirements

Going by the silence on the AMCA front from ada, I guess, it is not only you, but ada too is bit apprehensive, i guess. :D We need to see, what they are planning only after the feasibility study currently in progress.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 09 Feb 2011 00:18

I don't mind ada adopting a stealth mode in r&d to deliver a real stealth a/c. making IAF happy must be its prime goal.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 09 Feb 2011 13:29

Latest model on Livefist.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2011 13:55

^^^ Looks very PAK-FA-ish

Could somebody take a good topdown (planform) picture of it?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vishnu.nv » 09 Feb 2011 14:29

rear view exposing its musharaff :)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 09 Feb 2011 15:57

it looks like something passable in the JSF class atleast. not the "fatbox" J20 obese flying grand piano shape.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 09 Feb 2011 17:35

Something tells me that the AMCA will do very well. I feel that technically it is in a class of its own and for that reason alone it should be compared to other options outside of a few technical details (RAM coating, etc). My feel is that they will achieve what others have but via other means. JMT.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Sidhu » 09 Feb 2011 19:07

<quote>VINAYAK SHETTI FOR IDRW.ORG

MCA 1.0 – Concept and initial idea for development of Twin engine based Medium combat aircraft can be traced back to late 90’s. That’s even before first flight of the LCA TD-1 had taken place,
<\quote>

Oh noooooo....... Soo the MCA program is already >12 years old... and WAY above budget.....

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 09 Feb 2011 19:12

So AMCA will be in the Mig-29 class
PAK-FA / FGFA will be in the Su-30 Class.

I hope the internal weapons bay is adequate on the AMCA.

The engine exhausts on this version seem to be together, that'll cause problems in the internal weapons bay wrt its size.

Even if external weapons are needed, they need to design stealth pods with doors for weapons to be stored inside them. The stealth pods can be slung under a wing pylon and can carry a few weapons inside.

This design was to be expected. I had drawn numerous designs on paper, and they all turned up looking somewhat like this. :twisted:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 09 Feb 2011 19:18

Even the top view it appears that the wing configuration is different from the last MCA model we saw.
This one does not seem to have that curved wings. But they appear to be more conventionally shaped.

I am sure that the final product will be different from this too. This one is too simple...

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 09 Feb 2011 19:22

stealth weapon pods will soon be going mainstream = F18 and F15SE already demo it, others will follow. the A2A armament sure can be used with such pods, reserving the internal bay for perhaps 4 A2G SDB type weapons using the new high energy explosives proven recently.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 09 Feb 2011 19:33

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/02/ae ... h-gen.html

Can the gurus tell us, what is the change from Def Expo 2009 model? To my layman eyes, it looks the same!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby sumshyam » 09 Feb 2011 19:41

vic wrote:Can the gurus tell us, what is the change from Def Expo 2009 model? To my layman eyes, it looks the same!


Changes in the vertical stabilizer is quite visible.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 09 Feb 2011 19:43

AMCA
Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby sumshyam » 09 Feb 2011 19:55

Gagan wrote:AMCA
Image



Only one undercarriage...?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 09 Feb 2011 19:59

Light blue- Weapons bay
Orange - Engines

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby KrishG » 09 Feb 2011 20:39

Gagan, I believe the wing is a bit further back (they end at where the rudder starts) and also the elevators look like they are smaller in the display-model.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2011 20:41

Gagan sir, the edge alignment doesn't seem right in your diagram. Also I think there will be two small bays after the intake lip
Somewhat like this:
Image
Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2011 21:40

vic wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/02/aero-india-new-model-of-indias-5th-gen.html

Can the gurus tell us, what is the change from Def Expo 2009 model? To my layman eyes, it looks the same!


Not a guru, just my thoughts.

This model is very different from the past model

1. Nose looks and first half of the cockpit and body looks more like Tejas with a chin
2. After the highest point of the cockpit, the neck is like PAK-FA (very nicely done)
3. The intakes have been canted out in the same sweep angle as the leading edge of the wing.
4. Splitter plates have been done away with (stealth requirement) and the boundary layer will be deposited above the wing (by the side of the neck) and below the intake through chiseled channels.
5. Can't comment on the changes of the wing as I can't see. But the wing body blending looks much smoother now.
6. The vertical stabilizer looks to have the exact same leading edge and trailing edge as the main wing (and most probably the horizontal stabilizer). This was not the case with the earlier model.

All in all this looks much sleeker through the air. I am pretty sure it will have a very good are ruling due to that neck and the nice tapering from the internal bay to the engine exhausts. The elevators extend all the way to the engine nozzle end.

Very few edges,
1. leading edge- wing, horizontal stabilizer, vertical stabilizer, intakes.
2. trailing edge- wing, horizontal stabilizer, vertical stabilizer.
3. wingtip edges of the wing, horizontal stabilizer, vertical stabilizer are the same (I think the horizontal stabilizer inside edge near the nozzles must also be edge matched)
4. leading edge of inside compound delta of the main wing.
The bottom looks flat, the top looks very well blended.

If they can replicate this model on the actual plane it will be REALLY nice aerodynamically as well as stealth wise.

People going to AI, please take loads of pictures from every possible angle of this model. Please get a picture of the planform (top-down, bottom-up).


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