AMCA News and Discussions

sharma.abhinav
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby sharma.abhinav » 22 Jul 2011 13:41

I think a couple of Exocet or Harpoon class anti-ship missile could be carried in internal weapon bays of AMCA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby gakakkad » 22 Jul 2011 16:13

Could the non stealth in maritime missions be due to external fuel tanks? And arguably (my personal assumption, not a fact) we need more stealth for attacking land based targets than maritime as air defence network of land is any day much denser than of sea. (AGREED does sound a bit like lahori logic ;) )Gurus shed some light. Besides air to ground missiles even exist for land based target. Brahmos can be anti ship mission as well as anti land target mission. So if brahmos /nirbhay compromise stealth at sea it will compromise stealth at land. This is indeed confusing .

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Jul 2011 00:12

disha, please read Singha's post. you can find answers why it can't be brahmos under the hood [context: stealth].

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby shukla » 08 Aug 2011 04:17

India to build its own stealth fighter jet
IBNLive

New Delhi: India is getting ready to add another fighter aircraft to its fleet with the DRDO working on an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.

In a little over a decade from now the Indian Air Force will be needing replacements for its MiG-29, Mirage and Jaguar fighters. The DRDO through its Bangalore based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) will unveil the design for that replacement to the air force brass next year, an indigenous design for a stealth aircraft

Director General VK Saraswat DRDO said, "Our requirement is to look for a fighter aircraft which will be required after 2025 and that aircraft should have all capabilities in terms of agility, maneuverability, load carrying capacity, low radar cross-section, super cruise."

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft could be in the 20 tonne range and composite materials will comprise much of its structure. Weapons will be carried in internal concealed bays and It will be powered by two Kaveri engines.

It will be powered by our modified Kaveri engine. It will have additional features in terms of better fuel consumption, thrust vectoring, serpentine intakes and also some of the technologies critical for high fuel efficient and high turbine temperatures, said Saraswat.

Originally the Kaveri was to power the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas but is yet to develop the required thrust forcing the authorities to opt for the GE414 engine. Given that experience, the DRDO through the ADA plans to collaborate with a foreign engine manufacturer to speed up the development and testing work.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Christopher Sidor » 27 Dec 2011 11:04

Finally there are signs that Japan may be about to lift its ban of weapon exports.

This is a god send. And on the eve of Japanese PM's visit to India this week, India should talk to japan to build AMCA together. This will lower the cost of development and will cement our ties with Japan.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Jan 2012 10:13

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/11/ex ... st-of.html
revisiting back to these desires, I really loved the distributed architecture with smart sub systems/ that was my one dream to do one given time and resources.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby uddu » 22 Jan 2012 11:10

Christopher Sidor wrote:uld talk to japan to build AMCA together. This will lower the cost of development and will cement our ties with Japan.

Not always. One must not forget the delay caused due to us taking the U.S assistance with FBW. The sanctions that followed the nuclear test. So it's better to go alone alone from now onwards. Continue with whatever we have gained from the Tejas program. Cooperation can be in areas like machinery meant for aircraft production, equipment sourcing for such etc. That's Technology and equipment to speed up the process.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 22 Jan 2012 12:46

todays TOI:

Amada plans tech centre in Bangalore
Umesh M Avvannavar, Bangalore, Jan 21,2012, DHNS:
Japan-based machine tool maker Amada Group is planning to set up technical centre in Bangalore with an investment of $13 million. It would be operational by 2014.

The state government has allotted 8 acre land at Aerospace SEZ for the centre which would be used to upgrade the group’s global solutions centre and also house high class vocational training facility for its employees and customers in India.
According to Amada Co Ltd Senior Managing Director Toshio Takagi, the centre will support other aerospace companies coming up at the SEZ. It will have about 100 engineers and have a parts centre to cater to the growing requirements of its customers in India.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2012 01:23

Singha wrote:yes to a certain extent they can be stealth shaped and coated with RAM paints, but nothing beats having a internal bay. due to size issues I dont think ASM/LACM can be carried in the new gen of stealthy "containers" meant to hung under wings - those would work for AAM/ARM onlee.


A low RCS weapons pod like that of the Super Hornet International roadmap could be developed for carrying weapons externally. a pod that is RCS optimized and reduces the overall RCS of the aircraft carrying it as compared to say just slinging weapons externally could be developed.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2012 01:26

SaiK wrote:How about, if we could design an aerodynamic canister like conformal under the wings, released, breaks up, and then fires.. then a/c can retain stealth?

of course I am imagining.


actually its not a bad idea at all. the pod/canister that you're talking about could be aerodynamic and shaped for low RCS and that would actually help to carry larger weapons externally. I'm sure this is going to happen for the F-35, PAK-FA and hopefully our own AMCA as well. And once pictures of it appear on ANY fighter (if they don't manage to steal it before that through cyber espionage), the Chinese will copy it within 1 or 2 years and it'll be on the J-20 as well.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2012 01:39

sharma.abhinav wrote:I think a couple of Exocet or Harpoon class anti-ship missile could be carried in internal weapon bays of AMCA.


That would mean a huge weapons bay, which would mean a huge cross section for a 20 ton AMCA, which would adversely impact its aerodynamic performance (such as transonic acceleration). That is one of the lessons from the F-35 that we know of. The Korean KF-X, a supposedly F-16+ class aircraft isn't aiming to carry all of its weapons internally, precisely for this reason.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2012 05:48

sharma.abhinav wrote:I think a couple of Exocet or Harpoon class anti-ship missile could be carried in internal weapon bays of AMCA.


That would mean a huge weapons bay, which would mean a huge cross section for a 20 ton AMCA, which would adversely impact its aerodynamic performance (such as transonic acceleration). That is one of the lessons from the F-35 that we know of. The Korean KF-X, a supposedly F-16+ class aircraft isn't aiming to carry all of its weapons internally, precisely for this reason.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 29 Jan 2012 07:18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellige ... rol_System

Any study under taken in desh for this?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kuldipchager » 29 Jan 2012 08:20

What this have to do with our amca.
Please do not asvertise somebody's stuf in our program.
We have to feel good what we have good or bad and try to make better.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby sumshyam » 29 Jan 2012 09:47

kuldipchager wrote:What this have to do with our amca.


wasn't there talk of artificial intelligence in AMCA?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 29 Jan 2012 19:22

sumshyam wrote:
kuldipchager wrote:What this have to do with our amca.


wasn't there talk of artificial intelligence in AMCA?


And much more - such as panoramic displays, voice commands, getting rid of HUD, and my fav "triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture", etc.

For people who would like to re-visit the topic Google is of great help.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby sumshyam » 29 Jan 2012 21:06

Wiki says "The final design is expected to be shown to the air force by 2012, after which full scale development on the aircraft may start."

From my understanding, Final Design means staff requirements being charted out and a conceptual design of would be fighter to be framed. am I right?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 30 Jan 2012 02:55

Another aspect of logical component based design should not just thought off at integration of a distributed real-time sub-systems, but also more from a concept of how much of it can be reused especially during unknown conditions.

For this, they could perhaps divide the a/c with 2 or 3 main sections where each part gets separated and parachute land safe.. except those that is on fire (mostly engine, and rear fuselage). The avionics, radar, and the brain along with cockpit could be considered another section that be ejected altogether.. but a split second decision could be made to do normal ejection if everything is on fire.

There is no end to these type of sdre thoughts.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby saje » 30 Jan 2012 18:49

SaiK wrote:For this, they could perhaps divide the a/c with 2 or 3 main sections where each part gets separated and parachute land safe.. except those that is on fire (mostly engine, and rear fuselage). The avionics, radar, and the brain along with cockpit could be considered another section that be ejected altogether.. but a split second decision could be made to do normal ejection if everything is on fire.


While on the topic of damage... anyone passing by the HAL complex in bangalore going towards M'halli would've noticed a building on the left side with the lettering "SHAPE MEMORY ALLOYS". If it means what I think it means, I hope they'll be including that aspect as well in the AMCA. Aahhh, imagine the face of a puki pilot who shoots holes in the AMCA, only to watch those holes fill up again :evil: !

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby manum » 30 Jan 2012 20:49

I wish I had like button for above post... :D

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby aditp » 30 Jan 2012 22:12

saje wrote: If it means what I think it means, I hope they'll be including that aspect as well in the AMCA. Aahhh, imagine the face of a puki pilot who shoots holes in the AMCA, only to watch those holes fill up again :evil: !


But what would be the point of the AMCA, if a puki is able to get into a gun shooting position :oops:

Nice thought though.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 30 Jan 2012 23:00

aditp wrote:
saje wrote: If it means what I think it means, I hope they'll be including that aspect as well in the AMCA. Aahhh, imagine the face of a puki pilot who shoots holes in the AMCA, only to watch those holes fill up again :evil: !


But what would be the point of the AMCA, if a puki is able to get into a gun shooting position :oops:

Nice thought though.


Then the Puki would look at his plane, see the holes and say: "Holy sh!t. it isn't healing and indulge in ejection interuptuss" :rotfl:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 30 Jan 2012 23:25

boeing already uses sma-chevrons for noise reduction of butt exhausts during wet-thrust. could add to audio stealth characteristics.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prem Kumar » 31 Jan 2012 04:56

Kartik wrote:That would mean a huge weapons bay, which would mean a huge cross section for a 20 ton AMCA, which would adversely impact its aerodynamic performance (such as transonic acceleration). That is one of the lessons from the F-35 that we know of. The Korean KF-X, a supposedly F-16+ class aircraft isn't aiming to carry all of its weapons internally, precisely for this reason.


And this is what worries me about the AMCA. Why "medium"? If there is a lesson learnt from F-35, it is that there is a trade-off between stealth and internal payload capacity, which can degrade the efficacy of the platform.

I'd rather we go for a B2 Spirit type stealth bomber. It should be designed to carry a significant amount of ordnance & serve the dual role of:

a) Kick the door open by taking out S-300's and airfields - more punch per sortie
b) Nuclear weapons - N-tipped Nirbhays or bombs

I would also think that designing a bomber (without the significant aerodynamic performance requirements of a fighter) & focusing mainly on stealth/avionics/payload would be a more achievable task.

The next step after that would be to develop a "heavy, stealth fighter" like the FGFA. Do away with this "medium" business

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2012 08:30

^ thanks for triggering this train of thought.

perhaps they want to keep it small and manouverable as the fighter replacement for all the small/medium birds like Tejas/M2K/Mig29 while replacing the bombers like Jaguar/Mig27 as well. that brings in JSF style complex requirement.

I agree that developing a J20 sized larger pure bomber - high speed and stealth but not a great a2a product has merit, because same can be scaled down and slightly adapted (air intake in place of cockpit area) to derive a UCAV bomber. with a fully internal payload of say 6-8 nirbhay/Astra2 sized missiles it will be a ideal weapon for standoff strikes on defended targets.

we suffer from setting our goals small rather than big. big is actually easier because not everything needs to be miniaturized and stuff is easier to fit - a fact proven by the chinese J8, JH7, J20 etc. since we are importing engines anyway, we can import bigger engines.
Big domestic engines are easier to scale down than upscaling small engines probably...so kaveri-snecma will not easily yield a AL31 class engine while the chinese went for AL31 size and performance from the word go.

sooner we get rid of tying ourselves up with light/medium goals, better chances of success. HAL must focus and go for a 12-ton MTOW heli next to replace the Mi17 and be our standard battlefield and marine transport / ASW heli. hope they do not get suckered into making a new LOH (after 197 LOHs are set to be imported!)...be pragmatic and copy what works - the Mi17 shape and size is proven workhorse, so copy its general look and placement, with a new cockpit and turbomeca engines and better protection systems and composites with eurocopter quiet blade tech and name it "Snowy Owlet" or whatever....that will cut years of dev time vs a totally white sheet design.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kailash » 31 Jan 2012 22:26

x-post from Kaveri thread


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2012 23:17

It has been a year since we heard that.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby bharath_a » 01 Feb 2012 00:01

^ it would make sense to develop the AMCA into a Bomber with optional pilot capability. we are going to buy fgfa/t50, rafale, lca 1/2. even a 10-14 bombers would be a good enough deterrence.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 01 Feb 2012 04:06

mm.. you guys are getting lost into firangi world!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 01 Feb 2012 09:54

We need to leverage Rafale deal to get help for AMCA

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2012 10:03

imo AMCA should develop 2 models
AMCA-F - medium weight stealth A2A bird size and shape of rafale but with small internal bay for 4 LR AAMs and stealth canisters under wings for 4 aim9x type aam (use kaveri-snecma and M88-4 engines as available)

AMCA-D - heavy weight stealth A2G strike oriented with deeper stealth, le ss ACM but bigger internal bay for A2G weapons (use AL31F engines and AL41 engines as available...if thats too big use F414EPE or EJ220 while working to upscale the kaveri-snecma....)..borrow from pakfa learnings and manufacture....but make it stealthier like the YF23


we do NOT have the luxury of tinkering along doing things serially....the chinese are surely working on 3-4 stealth projects in parallel with J20 being tip of iceberg. they will develop and field and atleast 2 5th gen planes and 1 global hawk and 1 stealth UCAV in parallel by around 2020-25 timeframe.

serialization, trickle funding, token efforts, playing turf wars, pulling people down , small teams will just lead to widening the gap with PRC.

we need to pull socks up now and start running.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 01 Feb 2012 10:09

Stealth should be enabling technology.. in the sense, any aircraft could be modified to become stealthier. possibility : 99.99% in mmw bandwidth. In the long run, capabilities of LPI + long range A-A/S would be the game changer that integrates well with a buddy mini AWAC system like a super-sukhoi that can scan and track 400km area. A buddy with 8-10 stealthy AMCAs would form a nice stealth squadron.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kailash » 01 Feb 2012 13:18

Singha wrote:we do NOT have the luxury of tinkering along doing things serially....the chinese are surely working on 3-4 stealth projects in parallel with J20 being tip of iceberg. they will develop and field and atleast 2 5th gen planes and 1 global hawk and 1 stealth UCAV in parallel by around 2020-25 timeframe.

serialization, trickle funding, token efforts, playing turf wars, pulling people down , small teams will just lead to widening the gap with PRC.

we need to pull socks up now and start running.


++1 to that. Apart from the emergency meeting that was scheduled after the J-20 flight, there is no visible progress/acceleration on the AMCA.

But let us forget the foreign engines. If I am Snecma, I would have no incentive to help Kaveri. I will make an outright sale of the M88. I do agree with a bunch of programs in parallel - medium/heavy fighter, dedicated bomber etc.

What is more important is to also start a bunch of different engines - differ power ratings, chopper specific, variant for transports and 90 seater civilian aircrafts etc. DRDO is on the right track concentrating on component systems before building the whole. But need to diversify into multiple parallel projects - and show some haste..

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 01 Feb 2012 13:55

Building multiple models defeats the "Omni" or "Multi" role concepts, specially with the Rafale claim of being able to switch in flight. So, that is a non-starter.

On the engine front, there was an article just a day or so ago that stated that they had a deal with Snecma on the Kaveri - or did I miss read? Either way, M88 or Kaveri, the point has to be Indian freedom on engine design and manufacture. Any thing less would be a reboot.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neela » 01 Feb 2012 13:57

X-post
vina wrote:Going forward, I do pray, that the AMCA is a multi national deal with us roping in the Swedes , Brazilians , South Africans and the French in as well , pool all resources and strengths and build a truly great fighter with good assured market and satisfying the needs of all friendly countries and to rub chilli into Panda's backside, export those to Vietnam and a threat of sales to Taiwan as well. :rotfl:

:shock:
And what exactly does that bring? We saw this happen with the Euro fighter - squabbles for everything from specs, to design, to logistics and production. That will further delay things. Each participating state wanted a bigger piece of the pie. 1983 saw the program being envisaged and 2 years later,France said bye-bye and went down the Rafale road.And all that with peoples with almost identical cultural background. What you are proposing is a nightmare to freeze even on the specs.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2012 14:35

brazil is much further along in domestic aviation industry and plugging into global ecosystem. plus they have money and are growing rapidly (in dollar terms bigger than india) and they have defence ambitions including n-subs.

the idea of doing a indo-brazilian thing does have merit

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neela » 01 Feb 2012 16:13

Singha wrote:brazil is much further along in domestic aviation industry and plugging into global ecosystem. plus they have money and are growing rapidly (in dollar terms bigger than india) and they have defence ambitions including n-subs.
the idea of doing a indo-brazilian thing does have merit


Question is, what specific extra does Brazil bring to the AMCA programme? Does it have strategic implications ? Does it make to develop and preserve the knowledge in-house.
Does development time constraints override strategic needs.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2012 16:24

Saras is ample proof that working in isolation even on relatively simple projects is hard.

we are playing catch up to PRC here and development time has its own value, else we'd never have invested so much in the pakfa.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby koti » 01 Feb 2012 17:22

Neela wrote:Question is, what specific extra does Brazil bring to the AMCA programme? Does it have strategic implications ? Does it make to develop and preserve the knowledge in-house.
Does development time constraints override strategic needs.

Extending your analogy sir, What more does Netherlands or Spain (Even UK)add to JSF?
It is not always about doing business, it is about building partnerships.

Lets say we somehow manage to rope in Brazil, wouldn't automatically translate to more orders for the bird?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2012 18:07

>> Question is, what specific extra does Brazil bring to the AMCA programme?

lots of money, talented engineering and a large new customer for the end product. plus Embraer can certainly teach HAL lot about manufacturing in volume and to global stds...HAL still operates somewhat on a cottage industry basis because they have no product for the civilian market and just one captive customer.

by the time vodka and biskoot talks are over on our MTA, the EMB MTA will be in squadron service! that was one good chance we let go.


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