AMCA News and Discussions

Vivek K
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 20 Sep 2012 10:58

If the AMCA is pursued there will be work going on at the same time on
a) LCA Mk2 (hopefully Mk1 will be in service by then)
b) FGFA with Russia
c) MRCA production
d) AMCA
e) Jaguar DARIN III
f) M2K upgrade
g) IJT

This means that DRDO will need to start a farm of aerospace and allied engineers so that there can be enough skilled personnel to work in a nearly non-existent sector presently. Wouldn't it be better to focus energies on deliverable concepts and improve others by MLUs so that improved capabilities could be fielded on older platforms to match the crap the Chinese put up?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 20 Sep 2012 11:41

a) LCA Mk2 (hopefully Mk1 will be in service by then) => ADA, DRDO and HAL involvement
b) FGFA with Russia => I am not sure what new work is needed from indian side. consider the 2 seater abandoned. in that sense HAL will do licensed production only.
c) MRCA production => again almost zero local content. HAL to do licensed production onlee.
d) AMCA => NAL, ADA, HAL full involvement needed
e) Jaguar DARIN III => this is mainly HAL and DARE I think and its mostly decided and known what to do. OEM help is there too. honeywell might supply new engine.
f) M2K upgrade => against quite low local content, mainly HAL work
g) IJT => under HAL. not sure how serious they are now.

if you look at high level design involvement by DRDO, its mainly the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA only. even the AMCA could if necessary use 414EPE/M88-3 engines and utilize a downsize version of the FPGA aesa radar or a upsized RBE2-AA if local efforts fail. so the two biggest hurdles engine and radar have fallback options.

however I agree that massive projects like these need 30-50% over provisioning of key people and good manpower planning, being 10 yr terms. we dont have enough high level key people in many fields for sure.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Sep 2012 17:10

Vivek K wrote: Wouldn't it be better to focus energies on deliverable concepts and improve others by MLUs so that improved capabilities could be fielded on older platforms to match the crap the Chinese put up?

-would you have said LCA was not a deliverable concept some 10 years back?
-LCA mk1. could not be in MLU say 5 years from now.

Forces have been long just plain buyers... and that is not going to be anymore true for the future. LCA++ onwards, and hopefully a third leg to fourth leg jump should make IAF feel that ADA team will deliver soon., not just on paper but on air to the final frontiers.

I think you are just getting carried away by DDM crap rather chinese crap. BTW, I would never ever underestimate a xerox-khanic enemy.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nakul » 20 Sep 2012 17:19

We are already inducting 5th gen techs on our 4th gen fighters. Su 30 MKI has network centricity, super maneuvrability. Rafale will have super cruise in addition to sensor fusion & data linking. Even the LCA will have some 5th gen techs in Mk II avatar. There is no reason to have a 1 vs 1 engagement with China. I would prefer a datalinked Rafale anyday over a similar J 31. As most people know, Chinese goods take pains to look good on the outside. But in war, it is the inside that counts. AMCA is going to be truly 5th gen on the inside (FBL, distributed computing) as well.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby RajD » 20 Sep 2012 19:07

nakul wrote: AMCA is going to be truly 5th gen on the inside (FBL, distributed computing) as well.

Are you really serious? Has 'FBL' already been mastered by ADA, DRDO et al.( any link?) that it becomes a path breaker and takes AMCA to a totally different level, a cut above the rest? Or does it remain chasing some mirage at this moment which might result in perpetual delays, cost over runs and unpreparedness of the IAF and finally import of the hardware altogether.
Regards.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Sep 2012 19:45

What is there to master FBL? It is only a matter of using the bandwidth provided by it.., There are specific mil std bus for it., and the nature of controls is the same. only the medium of control communication is different.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nakul » 20 Sep 2012 20:28

Here is the wishlist of AMCA

http://www.livefist.blogspot.in/2010/11 ... st-of.html

This article was published in 2010. So things might have changed.

It does show up the interest in really advanced technologies. IAF is shooting for the stars. Even if it fails, it will end up on the moon. Either way, it is a win-win for us jingos!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby RajD » 20 Sep 2012 20:41

SaiK wrote:What is there to master FBL? It is only a matter of using the bandwidth provided by it.., There are specific mil std bus for it., and the nature of controls is the same. only the medium of control communication is different.

Sir,
I'm no guru in this regard but please refer to the discussion regarding FBL on page 2 & 3 of this thread between senior posters.
The gist of the same points to it as still a 'grey area'. Please throw some light if the situation has changed.
Regards.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 30 Jan 2013 21:44

Tarmak itself tags it as a teaser. Will wait till tomorrow.

It's the one! Tomorrow don't miss Tarmak007!

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 01:08

RajD, me no export or guru. what is more than indranilroy had said you are looking for in FBL?

basically the control surfaces are the same things.. except for the sensors and actuator design changes.
instead of 1553b, it would be 1773 for the optics.
analog to optics and back conversions.
since fiber optic has large bandwidth, one could think about distributed computing too.. again depending on the architecture of aMCA.
most likely embedded computing will not be on regular flight control surfaces but more on mission computing, radar signal processing, perhaps continuous health monitoring, fuel injection optimization are the areas need embedded processsors.. and all these needs to be integrated too.

so, a distributed super computing setup to handle dedicated real time computing needs. i am thinking a federated mission computer integrating with multiple embedded systems.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 31 Jan 2013 01:12

Singha wrote:a) LCA Mk2 (hopefully Mk1 will be in service by then) => ADA, DRDO and HAL involvement
b) FGFA with Russia => I am not sure what new work is needed from indian side. consider the 2 seater abandoned. in that sense HAL will do licensed production only.
c) MRCA production => again almost zero local content. HAL to do licensed production onlee.
d) AMCA => NAL, ADA, HAL full involvement needed
e) Jaguar DARIN III => this is mainly HAL and DARE I think and its mostly decided and known what to do. OEM help is there too. honeywell might supply new engine.
f) M2K upgrade => against quite low local content, mainly HAL work
g) IJT => under HAL. not sure how serious they are now.

if you look at high level design involvement by DRDO, its mainly the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA only. even the AMCA could if necessary use 414EPE/M88-3 engines and utilize a downsize version of the FPGA aesa radar or a upsized RBE2-AA if local efforts fail. so the two biggest hurdles engine and radar have fallback options.

however I agree that massive projects like these need 30-50% over provisioning of key people and good manpower planning, being 10 yr terms. we dont have enough high level key people in many fields for sure.


FGFA will be heavily customised for the IAF. While there will be limited participation on airframe design and engines, there will be substantial involvement on the avionics, computers, EW, weapons, composites, and other subsystems. This is similar to the MKI project but more.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 01:48

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19888
why not involve them? it is like a triple whammy force projection. we get japan's funds, some technology participation, and more effectively a strong force in the region to consolidate with against a common enemy.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Bharadwaj » 31 Jan 2013 08:24

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/01/express-exclusive-indias-stealth.html

:eek:

What a clean looking bird and thank god its not some cheap f-22/jsf xerox....

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 31 Jan 2013 08:38

Looks good seems like it has YF-23 style Diamond Wing now.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2013 09:08

the wing is more f22ish imo...not the pure play diamond of the yf23...http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... acjWKGpCDA

the air intakes are lower and wider than the engine faces, so the curving up and going inward thing of the duct resembles the F-18SH. likely a fixed vane radar blocker will be placed as on the SH.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/imag ... mH5nvuIMh5

it has also become more flattened and sleeker like the pakfa vs the earlier fatter jsfish models. the role also seems to have changed to include prime a2a work also vs emphasis on strike earlier. not obvious from model but wing area will likely increase to keep wing loading in a2a fighter range.

==> engines will have to be very powerful, no compromises possible there. ==> EPE 414 or AL41

the big twin tailfins will likely be made smaller to mimic the pakfa. perhaps by funding the pakfa thing we can get help of sukhoi to test and validate many aspects of the air frame and rcs design quicker than doing it all ourselves. things like the internal bay system, and supersonic release of AAMs is also something the pakfa will test soon.... I am getting the feeling thats our real plan for sticking to the pakfa and scrapping the 2 seater fgfa thing...suck in as much of proven concepts and tech as possible into the amca instead.

folding fin versions of astra, sudarshan, the planned mini brahmos and the planned ARM can be planned now. Rus is already working on folding fun K74, K77, KH58, KH35 per reports...
Last edited by Singha on 31 Jan 2013 09:19, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 09:12

I think the curve may be little more than F18 perhaps taking two slight S twists

The frontal RCS looks neat! comparable to raptor! jai!
Last edited by SaiK on 31 Jan 2013 09:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2013 09:15

SaiK wrote:I think the curve may be little more than F18 perhaps taking two slight S twists


yes the f18 has a narrower fuselage due to no internal bay at bottom.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Bharadwaj » 31 Jan 2013 09:17

To my very untrained eye, there looks to be quite a significant deviation from the intake to the engine line. A radar blocker may not be needed

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 09:18

Perhaps the OLS and IRST lobes are inside the canopy.

nope, no radar blocker is necessary (check out the earlier pics of the inlets).. unless the skins don't do the job of right deflections or smudge the radar waves.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2013 09:20

what is the penalty in using a radar blocker like SH? some lower AoA limitation or loss of peak thrust?
if there is no penalty or small penalty for a further 5-10% gain in RCS reflections off the engine I'd say stick it in!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Bharadwaj » 31 Jan 2013 09:25

The bird seems quite errr.... longish.... hence engine guts may be much further up its a** and completely shielded. i would think any blocker would add a decent amount of weight.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 09:26

is it planned for mach 2? indranilroy, could you answer singha's question? AoA: the LERX like extension should do good., but for supersonic air flow, dunno about the thrust vs air flow controls for the mach supersonic speeds needed.

--

Currently the scientists are engaged in various scale model tests for the configuration of the design. With an initial government funding sanctioned in 2011 for a feasibility study, sources say that in the next few months a feasible design of AMCA should be out. Currently, a small team of scientists at ADA is concentrating on the design. The expected maiden flight should be by the end of the decade.


the choice of engine also matters now. end of decade is like 7 years left.. that will fly in a jiffy.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 09:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWWd9Xb786I
I think raptor has got a simple vane design.

some advanced basics here:
http://aerostudents.com/files/advancedA ... ummary.pdf

tushar_m

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby tushar_m » 31 Jan 2013 10:37

finally some news on big brother of tejas ...

maybe we should start it with 2 X GE414 & then replace it with some version of kaveri...

since we have ordered 99 of them with option for some more it will not be a problem.

also it will save a lot of time when your engine specs are out & it will help rapid development.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 10:40

quite possible since we have no news on K yet after snecma cancellation.
and anyway supercruise is out of question here

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 31 Jan 2013 10:49

Saik sahab, I am not good at understanding flow of air into inlets, engines etc. So, whatever I find will be through the same Google chacha that we all know.

I had fallen in love with this model:
Image

The newer model seems to be an elongation of that model, behind the wing. It is a good thing but visually not as attractive (to me :-? ).

The top part seems to have changed a bit. It always had broad shoulders, but the cockpit seems to have been made more fatter, more like PAKFA-ish.
Image

Looks good from the outside. Will wait for the inside stuff tomorrow. But they seem to have the ejection technology already.
A new technology is onboard for weapon release, considering AMCA will have an internal weapon bay
I think it will have the weapons bays as shown in the last model. You can see that there is depth below the intake in the frontal picture. I also think there will be two side bays.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 10:57

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/ ... _H-661.pdf
lot of inputs here.. but lot to read. sorry, i thought you had this gnawlidge!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 31 Jan 2013 11:25

So all the missiles will be stored on a single internal bay on the centerline ??

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 31 Jan 2013 14:38

^^^

krishnan wrote:So all the missiles will be stored on a single internal bay on the centerline ??
Check this out: The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2013 15:02

potentially room for 6 mraam in main bay and 2 sraam in side bays per raptor style
http://www.hasegawausa.com/product-imag ... ons-lg.jpg

making the a.c longer definitely helps to push engines back and create a longer bay below and bigger fuel tank, avionics bays behind the cockpit. would help in carrying longer weapons like a2g missiles where length is a factor...could carry 4 x harpoon sized weapons for sure or 2 x 2000lb sudarshans.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vina » 31 Jan 2013 16:14

Tarkmak has the cad cam pics of the AMCA configuration as finalized here

Looks like a mini F-22 Raptor less the squared off TVC exhausts. It is clear that they have moved away from a strike optimized stealth plane to a true multi role plane with strong A2A capabilities as well.

That brings us back the question.. What about the engine?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby member_23694 » 31 Jan 2013 16:42

one question : if AMCA is optimised for A2A, then how does it fit along with PAK FA in the overall scheme of things.
seems too many air dominance fighters ? who takes the role for bombing mission, one is Rafale , any other stealth option for strike ?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby prashanth » 31 Jan 2013 17:00

That brings us back the question.. What about the engine?


A good question to ask DRDO/NAL guys at the AMCA stall at Aero India.
Personally though, I think it would be disappointing to have an AMCA with foreign engine. Also, I doubt if DRDO/ADE can justify the use of imported engines for their second major project given the fact that they have been working on Kaveri since 1995. Sincerely hope they continue to improve the engine and get it to perform as expected.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Bharadwaj » 31 Jan 2013 17:34

dhiraj wrote:one question : if AMCA is optimised for A2A, then how does it fit along with PAK FA in the overall scheme of things.
seems too many air dominance fighters ? who takes the role for bombing mission, one is Rafale , any other stealth option for strike ?


Maybe a UCAV?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2013 18:17

the wings look too small in the model for the size of the plane. I figure the wings and elevator fins are going to be bigger.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 19:54

Singha wrote:potentially room for 6 mraam in main bay and 2 sraam in side bays per raptor style
http://www.hasegawausa.com/product-imag ... ons-lg.jpg
.

check the angle of the side bay racked aam., now that position should be released and then fired after some delta time, else the plume and exhaust could destroy internal wiring/components. [or everything is packaged and shielded] ?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2013 20:07

it is pushed out before ignition by telescoping pylon. it can even do it when ulta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-14GO09j5c

the AMCA increased size indicates IAF did a review and concluded just having a short legged small owlish VLO bird is not enough, it needs to have range and payload to do some damage.

I am betting it will be 18m long and not the stubby 15.2m/16m rafale/EF type.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2013 20:26

right, and the note from tarmak is that they have prioritized on SEAD and DEAD.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 31 Jan 2013 20:32

SaiK wrote:check the angle of the side bay racked aam., now that position should be released and then fired after some delta time, else the plume and exhaust could destroy internal wiring/components. [or everything is packaged and shielded] ?


There are small jet deflectors behind the missile, see in the top one.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby asprinzl » 01 Feb 2013 06:11

The fact of the matter is that the first Jet engined plane to take off to the sky did that in the late 1930s in Germany. The Brits have been working on jet engines a couple of years behind the Germans. Kaveri is not going to catch up with the western engines. It is not something to be ashamed off because it is not easy to catch up almost 80 years of development experience in a decade or two. A foreign engined AMCA should not be seen as a disappointment. What India should muster while pursuing domestic engine project is to parallely develop expertise in modifying foreign engines to suit local needs.


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