AMCA News and Discussions

Sujata · Post by **Sujata** » 15 Mar 2013 04:37

Wow, The AMCA looks simply amazing with the diamond shaped wings!Very beautiful plane indeed!

I was thinking to myself that what a jet fighter is doing when it goes so fast through the air is simple cutting it's way through a wall of air. The faster he or she goes through that air the tougher that air becomes. Air is pressure wrap around your jet fighter,and the faster he goes through it the tighter the squeeze he encounters. I have observed 2 animals that have evolved with nature that are very successful with cutting through that air,and water to be the fastest animals in the world.Animals evolving because they must get better to survive in real world conditions called nature.That's Research and development,but at much slower pace then a jet fighter program,but it works because their survival depends on it.

The Great Snipe:http://planetearth.nerc.ac.uk/news/stor ... eConsent=A
(also another bird that looks like it with the long beak as well.Bar-tailed) godwits:http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/wading-birds/page-7, and Finally Sailfish:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish

All of these animals are very fast because their noses cut through the air ,and water that greatly enhances their speed,and makes them more efficient then other animals.I use these animals as an example of things to learn from that animals use in real world conditions.

What else could they do that is not that obvious to make the AMCA better.I was looking at other 5th generation planes and I see that not only did Wing area get bigger then previous generations ,but the nose of the planes are very long and sharp from the underside to all the way to the back of the wings.

Why is this? These designers knew that the way to make the plane work less and be more coefficient was to make the nose of the plane like a sword that cuts through the air so that it can go faster forward ,and sides ways.

The nose of the AMCA is stealthy,but I was wondering if they could make the neck of the plane longer and to maximize it's ability to cut through the air and make it more maneuverable.Like the YF-23 has very sharp creases in the nose and has a long neck. Check out this video and see the nose and see how the neck goes ALL the way to the center of the Wings.Why did they design it that way?Did they find out that it makes it better overall? I think so.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9-n3tNrec0

If you ever see the YF-22 vs F-22 you will see major improvements from prototype to productions version,so theirs time to improve the AMCA for the better.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2013 07:27

Has this been posted before:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 548182.xml

The twin-engine, stealthy, multirole fighter was first unveiled at the Aero India show in 2009, in the form of a metal wind-tunnel model. At the show in 2011, a reshaped model revealed an F-22-like appearance.

The final design, or at least the one the concept designers have put out this year, is strongly reminiscent of the Northrop Grumman YF-23 prototype that lost the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition to the Lockheed YF-22 in 1991 in what became the F-22 program.

The AMCA's new fuselage is stretched, with symmetric trapezoidal wings, notably losing the leading-edge extensions that were once part of the design. The aircraft will have an internal weapons bay and fully indigenous stealth technologies now under development, including radar-absorbent paint and composites.

A senior scientist at the AMCA directorate in Bengaluru says, “we have the fourth-generation Tejas on the one hand. But evolutionary technologies we are developing for the AMCA are on the cutting edge. They hope to be comparable with the best in the world. If we need a little help along the way, in the interests of pragmatism, cost and time, we will study the feasibility of cooperation. But this ideally needs to be a fully Indian program. Sensitive stealth technologies will not be shared by foreign technology companies.”

A brief list of the ambitious technologies with which India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) hopes to equip the AMCA includes a panoramic active-matrix cockpit display, triplex fly-by-light architecture with an optical-fiber-based digital flight-control computer, and serpentine air intakes to suppress radar signature.

Describing the AMCA as a “fifth-generation-plus” platform, Defense Research and Development Organization chief Vijay Saraswat says that “work on the AMCA will begin soon. This will involve identifying technologies and systems for the aircraft.”

Saraswat has also appealed to Indian private-sector companies to support and get involved in the program. Industry executives indicate that aircraft makers including Saab, Dassault and EADS have expressed a willingness to consult with the ADA on the AMCA concept to speed things along. A formal selection of possible foreign technologies could happen this year.

Raicharan · Post by **Raicharan** » 23 Mar 2013 09:34

indranilroy wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:Joey

1 yes. Check gripen
2 yes. New concept . Costs time money. Question is that are you ready to build 1000s of these canvas with weapons to the tight tolerances required of f22 type fighters ?
Well Chandler,

1. Grippen checked: Under ideal circumstances like fuel truck standing by refueling time is 7 minutes. Rearming time is 10 minutes. So, if rearming times goes to 0, you will still be saving 3 minutes. By the way red eyed pilot would kiss your hand for the seven minute gap you graciously granted him between missions and hoping that the time on the MTBF clock (which on the Gripen) is 7.2 hours.

2. I don't think you understand the complexity. The tray is dead weight and dead volume. So it has to be minimized. Yet you are asking it to do the following contradictory things:
a. To carry 500 kg bombs, each of which either push against the ceiling at 1.5 Tons or pull the ceiling at 4.5 Tons. Also imagine the point where this tray attaches to the body. It is pushing or pulling between 4 Tons to 12 Tons (assuming to bombs and 2 Astras from -3Gs to 9 Gs). Oh! and by the way the ejection system (atleast on the F-22) creates a force upto 40 G.
b. Do not deform. Because, ejection of arms from internal bays is dependent air flow inside the internal bay. If the missile does not eject, it might be a catastrophic.

For you reference the AVEL system on F-22 is made of very high grade aluminium and yet each one of them weigh 50 kgs.

shiv wrote:Has this been posted before:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 548182.xml

The twin-engine, stealthy, multirole fighter was first unveiled at the Aero India show in 2009, in the form of a metal wind-tunnel model. At the show in 2011, a reshaped model revealed an F-22-like appearance.

The final design, or at least the one the concept designers have put out this year, is strongly reminiscent of the Northrop Grumman YF-23 prototype that lost the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition to the Lockheed YF-22 in 1991 in what became the F-22 program.

The AMCA's new fuselage is stretched, with symmetric trapezoidal wings, notably losing the leading-edge extensions that were once part of the design. The aircraft will have an internal weapons bay and fully indigenous stealth technologies now under development, including radar-absorbent paint and composites.

A senior scientist at the AMCA directorate in Bengaluru says, “we have the fourth-generation Tejas on the one hand. But evolutionary technologies we are developing for the AMCA are on the cutting edge. They hope to be comparable with the best in the world. If we need a little help along the way, in the interests of pragmatism, cost and time, we will study the feasibility of cooperation. But this ideally needs to be a fully Indian program. Sensitive stealth technologies will not be shared by foreign technology companies.”

A brief list of the ambitious technologies with which India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) hopes to equip the AMCA includes a panoramic active-matrix cockpit display, triplex fly-by-light architecture with an optical-fiber-based digital flight-control computer, and serpentine air intakes to suppress radar signature.

Describing the AMCA as a “fifth-generation-plus” platform, Defense Research and Development Organization chief Vijay Saraswat says that “work on the AMCA will begin soon. This will involve identifying technologies and systems for the aircraft.”

Saraswat has also appealed to Indian private-sector companies to support and get involved in the program. Industry executives indicate that aircraft makers including Saab, Dassault and EADS have expressed a willingness to consult with the ADA on the AMCA concept to speed things along. A formal selection of possible foreign technologies could happen this year.

Sujata · Post by **Sujata** » 23 Mar 2013 11:46

Are they trying to mix and match design elements from both the YF-23 and F-22? If they are then they should only copy from most advanced version of the two which is YF-23. If you every look at YF-23, F-22 and Pak-fa you can clearly see which one is the most sleek and aerodynamic of the 3,and it's not even close.http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images ... 236779.jpg
Why do you think that its performance is still classified because it's design is so cutting edge ,and the other 2 planes have copied elements from it,and not the other way around.http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... axiway.jpg

Start from the beginning and look how much they learned from 160 million stealth program of Tactic Blue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Tacit_Blue ,and from their they incorporated that into a jet fighter.Learn from the YF-23 overall design and incorporate that into the AMCA. The design is the only thing they will not change in the future of the program.Every thing will be upgraded,but the design.

Study the YF-23 to see why it is so aerodynamic and sleek.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t/f-23.htm
http://sportscarforums.com/gallery/show ... hoto=18203

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 21 Apr 2013 13:22

Hope not posted before.
http://idrw.org/?p=21120#more-21120
Titled 'Tejas Grounds Medium Combat Aircraft Project'
Really a sad day!!!
Rajendra

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 21 Apr 2013 13:54

While certainly not a news to rejoice, it is not bad news either. LCA/Tejas must see a logical end with the IAF inducting the Mark-ii version as early as possible. Any cutting edge technology developed therein can always be used in the AMCA project later.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 21 Apr 2013 15:23

RajD wrote:Hope not posted before.
http://idrw.org/?p=21120#more-21120
Titled 'Tejas Grounds Medium Combat Aircraft Project'
Really a sad day!!!
Rajendra

Seems like a BS news item. The ADA site has clearly listed the scientists who are working on the respective programmes. Dr. A.K. Ghosh is the project director (PD) of AMCA and Shri J J Jadhav is PD of LCA AF Mk.1 and further Shri.H.Siddesha is the PD of LCA AF Mk.2. So when teams are already formed and working on there respective projects I don't get it why would MoD suddenly do a jihadi strike on AMCA. Further the article is full of quotes from shady "sources" and I think we all know how reliable these "sources" are given the already known stellar performance of our desi dorky defence journos

Reading the "article" carefully reveals the level of dorkyness of the journo sample this,

Considering that most of the capabilities of AMCA will be covered by the MMRCA and FGFA planes, the revival of the AMCA will be a well thought-out one, sources said.

Considering that the MMRCA is a 4.5 th gen plane and FGFA is a 5th gen one in the heavy category while AMCA is a 5th gen in medium category I don't see how they are going to "cover the capabilities" of AMCA.

Now the dork journo makes an attempt to criticise LCA by again quoting "sources" saying that,

But sources pointed out that the LCA still lacks certain critical capabilities, including a reliable radar, and is deficient in at least 100 technical parameters. “The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians,” they said.

But in the very next para it again says,

The LCA, in fact, gave creditable flying displays during the AeroIndia show in Yelahanka in Bangalore in February this year, and followed it up with weapons firing to hit both ground and aerial targets during the Iron Fist fire power display by the IAF in the Rajasthan’s Pokhran ranges, again in February this year. “The common man thinks the plane is doing fine, its engine sounds great and the manoeuvres are perfect. But those flying and weapons firing displays are done with ground monitoring and support. The plane is still not ready to flying on its own,” sources stressed.

See the contradiction between the two bolded statements ???

Again the article quotes "sources" and says,

“Normally, a combat plane is ready for its next sortie following a 30-minute attention from ground service personnel soon after it has returned from a mission. In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie,” they said.

Excuse me moron but LCA is still an aircraft under development so how come it is being done an == with some in service "combat plane" which allegedly are ready for next sortie after a span of 30 min. ??? OK lets take this allegation and test for it's credibility. Here is the list of LCA flight from ADA site, if you scroll down a bit you would see flight test updates for 13-sep-10 to 17-sep-10 take a look at the flights of PV-3 and decide for yourself how true are these "allegations" from the said "source"

I am sure if you dig more you would be able to find more such regular flights and I am not even emphasizing here about the fact that these are test aircrafts which are used to gather data and hence after each flight the data gathered will be analysed before it goes for the next.

All said I severely doubt DRDO would allow the MoD to dictate it like this on one of it's star programmes when it has got a heavy weight lobby in the form of SA to RM and that to a man like Dr. Saraswat. I rest my case.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Apr 2013 16:07

Rubbish motivated report. The intent is quite clear. These are last ditch efforts to try and give the aircraft a bad name when it's nearly in the last lap before it sees IOC. Not a reliable radar? Utter nonsense. Deficient in 100 technical parameters? Wonder what the source is, but the ADA should publicly challenge these sort of planted stories. If the aircraft has telemetry on board that means it cannot fly on its own? That is just plain retarded logic.

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 21 Apr 2013 17:40

I have put a rebuttal on the information and they published my reply on the website but I do not think people will stop thrashing LCA...

Will · Post by **Will** » 21 Apr 2013 19:26

The way things are going the govt should sanction a TD project to test futuristic concepts. Once Indian engineers develop the required know how and expertise , only then should the full fledged AMCA be given the go ahead.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Apr 2013 20:20

RajD wrote:Hope not posted before.
http://idrw.org/?p=21120#more-21120
Titled 'Tejas Grounds Medium Combat Aircraft Project'
Really a sad day!!!
Rajendra

I don't know about the AMCA decision, but the info on Tejas is blatantly false.

But sources pointed out that the LCA still lacks certain critical capabilities, including a reliable radar, and is deficient in at least 100 technical parameters. “The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians,” they said.

How do the ground control support the components?!!! All the LSPs are test articles and have telemetry to monitor the correct functioning of the components!

To give an example of LCA’s troubles, the sources noted that LCA was grounded for three months between September and December 2012 following problems with its landing gear.

First of all the dates are wrong. LCA was grounded last year and the reasons were not landing gear. But for modifications to the ejection system.

“Normally, a combat plane is ready for its next sortie following a 30-minute attention from ground service personnel soon after it has returned from a mission. In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie,” they said.

First of all, there is only 1 combat plane in the world which advertises the turnaround time of 30 minutes, the Gripen.
Second, each sortie of a plane is separated by 2-3 days not because it requires maintenance of 2-3 days. It is because, every flight is a test flight. That is the amount of time that is required to check if all parameters were met in the previous test and to prepare the flight for the next test. This time is a global norm. For every trial, exercise and airshow that Tejas has participated in, the aircrafts have flown more than 2 sorties a day, which is a good standard, globally. There are days when Tejas has flown 3 or more times a day, which is exceptionally good.

It is sad, that Indian newspaper and an Indian reporter does not find out about India's own plane before publishing this.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Apr 2013 20:50

interesting point

Swedes - paragon of virtue

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Apr 2013 21:54

In a way the AMCA news makes sense. The LCA must first fly with the Kaveri. After we have an engine we move ahead for a new aircraft. I think we have done aircraft without engine several times. Enough of that. Need to move on with informed caution. Won't be long IMO.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Apr 2013 22:18

This news - taking AMCA resources and reallocating them to the LCA - seems to be (correct me if I am wrong) (only?) for the LCA's IOC phase.

IF that is true, I like the idea of this reallocation and placing the AMCA to chill for a while.

However, the problem will only get worse if after this reallocation the team does not meet some expectations. And, IMHO, the chances are pretty good that the LCA would be further delayed. India has zero experience in testing and certification, which I feel is causing these heart burns and IF that is true then allocating more resources is not always the right thing to do - unless they plan to work in parallel.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 21 Apr 2013 23:21

Regarding AMCA, it is a good thing IMO. This makes it easier for LCA to morph into AMCA with 2 engines down the road. It could happen very quickly if it all stays within the same program and that could even be the intention. One more reason to change the name of the LCA project and hopefully they will do so after IOC or FOC.

Regarding LCA, there are IAF officers on deputation to HAL/ADA who are sending a stream of inputs to Air HQ on a daily basis so the only reliable feedback is from the IAF and we should ignore everything else and treat them as static.

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 21 Apr 2013 23:54

To all the gurus -

Halting of AMCA project to allocate resource for LCA does not make complete sense to me. What baffles me is that both the planes are in different level of development - For LCA as we all know is in flight test program, AMCA is in early design stage.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... 20-382045/

So how is the involvement of designers of AMCA would help in fast tracking AMCA program? More importantly, what inputs designers of AMCA are going to put in flight testing program of LCA unless these are the same guys who design the plane and flight test it. I do not know whether this is the case.

@Shivji - I am not sure I agree with you. I completely agree that engine is most critical but if we see the approach of ISRO which is still perfecting of GSLV has perfected the art of complex satellite manufacturing to a large extent. I think AMCA, being stealth, twin engine, is a different beast alltogether than LCA and thus it is very important that work should continue on this together with development of Engine.

As always, correct me if I am wrong!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Apr 2013 23:59

1. I really don't understand the logic in the last few posts. How does curtailing AMCA speed up Tejas IOC/FOC? AMCA is in preliminary design stage. LCA Tejas is in Test phase. If you guys say that curtailing AMCA will speed up LCA MkII, it would make sense.

2. Shivji, how will the expertise of the AMCA, Tejas designers/builders be used to build an indigenous engine?

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 22 Apr 2013 00:03

[quote="indranilroy"]1. I really don't understand the logic in the last few posts.

@Sir Indranil - Second that! Though I beat you with the question !

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Apr 2013 01:16

rohankumaon wrote:
indranilroy wrote:1. I really don't understand the logic in the last few posts.

@Sir Indranil - Second that! Though I beat you with the question !

Oh! you are right. I asked exactly the same questions. Great, wise mean have said that there is strength in numbers.

But no 'sir' please.

member_23364 · Post by **member_23364** » 22 Apr 2013 01:35

^^ i think this article on suspension of AMCA is an one article wonder and this is something not to be taken seriously unless we hear something concrete from the PIB or the Saint himself, since a decision of this magnitude will not be taken by a low ranking bureaucrat. The author uses very slippery language in the article and not for once does he give a credible, official confirmation that the AMCA design has been stopped/suspended.

Age old technique of quoting "sources" to paint someone/something black, still rule the corrupt/paid news sections of Indian media.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Apr 2013 01:38

One thing it indicates is MoD and heads are struggling with project planning and implementation. They should leave this to experts.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Apr 2013 02:44

I really don't understand the logic in the last few posts. How does curtailing AMCA speed up Tejas IOC/FOC? AMCA is in preliminary design stage. LCA Tejas is in Test phase. If you guys say that curtailing AMCA will speed up LCA MkII, it would make sense.

Not too sure, so guessing here. They are running into issues (from the testing phase - which is normal) and need more resources to resolve the issues. The resolution of these problem should fall under the (re)design phase. The best resources for such an effort are from the AMCA project.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 22 Apr 2013 04:37

The IAF is aiming to maintain minimum 34 sq of fighters. By 2018 when all migs except mig 29 are retired, the likely fighter force is.

Su30 350 18sq
mig29 60 3sq
mirage 49 3sq
jaguar 120 6sq
lcamk1 40 2sq
rafale 36 2sq

Total 655 34sq

Present Su30 order of 272 14sq will go upto 350 with direct purchase of 80nos from Russia.

By early 30's when all mig29,mirage and jaguar are retired the likely force is

FGFA 214 10sq
Su30 320 16 sq
Rafale 180 9 sq
LCA 180 9 sq

TOTAL 894 44sq

You will need AMCA only if you want to raise fighter sq to 54 nos by 2040 when early Su30's will start retiring.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Apr 2013 06:29

sankum wrote:
Present Su30 order of 272 14sq will go upto 350 with direct purchase of 80nos from Russia.

By early 30's when all mig29,mirage and jaguar are retired the likely force is

FGFA 214 10sq
Su30 320 16 sq
Rafale 180 9 sq
LCA 180 9 sq

TOTAL 894 44sq

You will need AMCA only if you want to raise fighter sq to 54 nos by 2040 when early Su30's will start retiring.

First of all those figure have very liberal assumptions. I just do not see those numbers ever happening.

Besides it very heavily assumes that India is going to abandon her internal efforts and is going to solely rely on outside help. I just cannot see that happening.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 22 Apr 2013 08:59

Do i smell a news of buying JSF near 2020 ???...........

maybe ,maybe not who knows

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Apr 2013 09:47

Depending on the % if mafia is still in power.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 22 Apr 2013 13:13

NRao wrote:Not too sure, so guessing here. They are running into issues (from the testing phase - which is normal) and need more resources to resolve the issues. The resolution of these problem should fall under the (re)design phase. The best resources for such an effort are from the AMCA project.

indranilroy wrote:1. I really don't understand the logic in the last few posts. How does curtailing AMCA speed up Tejas IOC/FOC? AMCA is in preliminary design stage. LCA Tejas is in Test phase. If you guys say that curtailing AMCA will speed up LCA MkII, it would make sense.

Relax guys you are taking a load of garbage of an article way too much seriously nothing is being "put on hold" as the dork reports, scientists in DRDO work on multiple projects at the same time. It's nothing new, obviously the dork journo has no idea how DRDO functions and is making up junk based on "sources" in la la land. I am sure both the programmes are running as planned.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 22 Apr 2013 13:23

X post from LCA thread

suryag wrote:LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2125 Test Flights Successfully. (17-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-363,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-160,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2131 Test Flights Successfully. (20-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-259,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-164,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

LSP-5 logs 4 flights in 4 days. So much so for

In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie,” they said.

Moral of the story Indian Media is full of arseholes and we miss B Harry.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Apr 2013 20:10

I doubt if Harry returns to Earth, our media will change. The fundamental correction has to happen at the market, where the media is received. When those people who help the media don't change, how do you expect any force however dark it may be, make them change.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 23 Apr 2013 03:56

Moral of the story Indian Media is full of arseholes and we miss B Harry.

Main problem is our media is prowestern. Any thing we do good it can't go through there throat.
Bad news they give on front page. LCA is best plane and we can upgraded in future to our requirements.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Apr 2013 08:35

from a friend who works in the PR business, its actually common for money to be paid to journos to plant stories that paint their own products in a good light and their competitors in a bad light. We saw that at its peak during the MRCA competition when even respected people were coming out with articles extolling the Gripen as the best suited aircraft for the IAF.

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Apr 2013 10:16

DRDO must be given Media management and bribe fund to be successful.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Apr 2013 19:01

Kartik wrote:from a friend who works in the PR business, its actually common for money to be paid to journos to plant stories that paint their own products in a good light and their competitors in a bad light. We saw that at its peak during the MRCA competition when even respected people were coming out with articles extolling the Gripen as the best suited aircraft for the IAF.

And we know exactly the gentlemen names who they were.. here.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Apr 2013 01:11

Grippen got the greatest publicity ever globally just by participating in AI shows and MMRCA
Saab became a brand name out of nowhere in 1/6 of humanity by this participation.

They paid key media and digital outlets and invited public to ride on the Grippen aircraft.
Lot of smaller countries participate on India platform to gain global recognition. We find that in lot of India theme global organization

Suresh_Shyam · Post by **Suresh_Shyam** » 25 Apr 2013 22:00

AMCA Aircraft will going to be "Day Dream" for IAF without high Qualified Scientists. bcoz Quality Scientists won't work in DRDO with this PAY Scale. See the different between Lockheed Martin and DRDO.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=job_sc.jsp

http://www.salarylist.com/company/Lockh ... Salary.htm

i don't know how the MoD expecting world class aircraft from our scientist with this 'dirt-cheap' Pay Scale. US Scientist gets $75k per month. why MoD not think about this. MoD is ready to pay Billion dollar of money for Russian Scientist but not our country Scientist. i think india will not develop in defence sector until MoD change it's mindset.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Apr 2013 22:08

Suresh_Shyam wrote:AMCA Aircraft will going to be "Day Dream" for IAF without high Qualified Scientists. bcoz Quality Scientists won't work in DRDO with this PAY Scale. See the different between Lockheed Martin and DRDO.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=job_sc.jsp

http://www.salarylist.com/company/Lockh ... Salary.htm

i don't know how the MoD expecting world class aircraft from our scientist with this 'dirt-cheap' Pay Scale. US Scientist gets $75k per month. why MoD not think about this. MoD is ready to pay Billion dollar of money for Russian Scientist but not our country Scientist. i think india will not develop in defence sector until MoD change it's mindset.

I think you meant per annum.

You should not throw that number in isolation. Entry-level Google employee gets at-least 80k. If you have a Ph.D., the pay grade starts at 120k.

What India needs to match is that these scientist should get the same salary as the blokes in the financial institutions. I have had the misfortune of being in an IIT recently. There is a joke, the most important department is the placement office. And who are the most sought after companies, all financial ones!

RajSingh · Post by **RajSingh** » 25 Apr 2013 23:10

It is a bit painful to see people who do not have a clear picture of IIT's, commenting on IITs and IITians all the time. Most of top IITians go for research even when they are offered great paying jobs by Google and MS. The problem is not only money it is more of recognition and opportunities. Most of our research organizations are highly hierarchical with scant regard for talent. BTW why is to pain to so many people if IITians join Financial or IT companies ? The number of IIT grads joining financial companies is actually very small compared to who join PSUs. The problem is that PSU's cannot retain talent.

But things have been changing in last few years. The new pay commission has increased payements to respectable levels and many IIT's and institutions are adopting policies which promote innovative researchers. If you see recent hirings in place like IIT Powai, most of the professors are IITians who have done their PhD's abroad.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Apr 2013 23:13

indranilroy wrote:...
What India needs to match is that these scientist should get the same salary as the blokes in the financial institutions...

It is completely impractical and I hope it never happens. We don't just need brilliant scientists but also committed ones. Money shouldn't be the only motivation. In fact a lower pay package should weed out those who don't have a natural incantation for it but are just looking for the fattest pay check. We must differentiate between the likes of V. K. Saraswat and that of the sleazeball Rajat Gupta types.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Apr 2013 23:45

RajSingh wrote:It is a bit painful to see people who do not have a clear picture of IIT's, commenting on IITs and IITians all the time. Most of top IITians go for research even when they are offered great paying jobs by Google and MS.

I am not making anything up. In 2011, I had a long long discussion on this with professors from an IIT. The professors started with passion of the IIT students to be the best engineers and to serve the nation. So I asked them how was it that the large percentage of these passionate students choose their branch according to their ranks. Next, what was being done at IIT to foster the interest of undergraduate students to pursue their passion in graduate education. Out of 800 odd students who graduated from that IIT that year, 18 of them went abroad (for higher studies), less than 20 stayed back for graduate studies in India. The rest took up "jobs". That IIT has a large graduate student population. But only a couple of them are from IIT. Most of them were from good colleges in states where the "placements" were low and looked at IIT as the platform to catch-up.
One professor (an endowed chair) suggested that IITs should have 2 placements for UGs. One right after the first year, where financial companies come and recruit the guys for their beautiful analytical brain. These students should be then taught things which would be useful in that field. Why waste 3 years teaching them engineering. The rest of the students who stay back would be taught engineering at the best possible fashion and would be able to seat in all companies company at the end of their third year from their respective domains. This way both the objectives were served.

RajSingh wrote: The problem is not only money it is more of recognition and opportunities. Most of our research organizations are highly hierarchical with scant regard for talent. BTW why is to pain to so many people if IITians join Financial or IT companies ? The number of IIT grads joining financial companies is actually very small compared to who join PSUs. The problem is that PSU's cannot retain talent.

I am sorry to cause you pain. But I don't think you have followed the IIT recruitment pattern of late. My father, also an IITian joined a PSU, and so did his peers. Me and my friends went to the PSUs for internships and got bogged down. We never looked back at a job prospect at a PSU, except 2 guys in my batch. My juniors don't even go there for their internships.

RajSingh wrote: But things have been changing in last few years. The new pay commission has increased payements to respectable levels and many IIT's and institutions are adopting policies which promote innovative researchers. If you see recent hirings in place like IIT Powai, most of the professors are IITians who have done their PhD's abroad.

This is certainly true. I have no questions about the credentials of the professors at IIT.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Apr 2013 23:49

abhik wrote:
indranilroy wrote:...
What India needs to match is that these scientist should get the same salary as the blokes in the financial institutions...
It is completely impractical and I hope it never happens. We don't just need brilliant scientists but also committed ones. Money shouldn't be the only motivation. In fact a lower pay package should weed out those who don't have a natural incantation for it but are just looking for the fattest pay check. We must differentiate between the likes of V. K. Saraswat and that of the sleazeball Rajat Gupta types.

Why? Scientists are not humans? Don't they have families? Why should they not aspire to have the same quality of life as another guy with the same, if not lower credentials.

What is wrong in incentivizing great minds to be great scientists? What would be wrong if V.K. Saraswat drew the salary of the Google India president?