AMCA News and Discussions

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 26 Jan 2014 00:46

Well.......

For one, it was one of the drdo talks t hat brought that up.

For another I think I recall a Clemson univ software that does some of these things.

And, I do not think it is that difficult. Matter if libraries.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Jan 2014 07:27

NRao,

They have a dedicated team for software development since this is totally Indian and so is software. For normal functions you mention, we do not need a supercomputer.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 26 Jan 2014 07:43

I understand that, however, that does introduce a delay in the process. Integrating the two is a better way forward. Provides RT at the project level. Anyways ...............

Thanks.

BTW, this DRDO/HAL/ADA person - as he narrates - gave a presentation (IIRC about the LCA) at a western location UK/US. At the end in the question answer session there were two questions (he was expecting a lot more). One of them was - what is the estimated cost? The presenter states that that thought had not even gone through the mind of the Labs people - they just designed the plane and did not go into other details. That is when he mentions that the whole/complete process needs to be modeled - not just the CFD/ABC/XYZ stuff - the aeronautical stuff. If a material, of an object, is changed, the software should be able to provide what is the weight differential, changes in CG, etc, including who the manufacturer is and how would the material get from point A to manufacturing site.

The supercomputer is not needed for these other areas - granted, but neither does the supercomputer provide a complete picture (cost, etc) in RT, which is highly desirable.

The western and some colleges already have that.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Jan 2014 09:01

See Dhruva-3 is access permission and task based. Its not a production server, if you understand what I mean. Dhruva-3 is meant for high end computing which normally cannot be handled by main frames etc. If you club Bill of Quantity with an experiment, its not practical. DRDO has other servers which handle those functions.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4066
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 26 Jan 2014 10:29



Hmm the question would the amca achieve a good amount of stealth against surveillance and tracking radars that are deployed a decade later when it enters service or would it work only with the legacy systems that are state of the art now.. a wide band stealth will be achieved only by a 6th generation fighter that according to LM/ BOEING would have visual stealth as well.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2014 10:55

here would be few reasons why we need super computing power to v&v amca stealth designs:
also, please remember, it is not about measurements and metrics of single component, or embedded system that is in the designs.. there is going to be SOC components, and still acting as LRU component with a federated mission computing system - la f22 raptor.
the real-time events could be sporadic, predictable say for planned mission, or even aperiodic owing various profiles the airframe will be subjected to. now, it is not about having to do with super computing needs, but it is all about multti-processing environemnt, where ton of analytics are running for real-time metrics on all these sub systems in a model put together. the behavior model can feed ton of data, that can be used for actual models.
big data! tera-flop-data, at that speeds.. and some of these data might get back into the models as closed-loop feedback, corrections, and metrics again.. diff between earlier run, history, etc.
the simulation of all these needs super computing power.
again, this is just an assumption... when it comes to stealth, the actual feedback and response say of the stealth structure to radar waves could be only generated with live feeds first.. then use that as baseline to simulations and models.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Jan 2014 11:23


SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2014 11:33

mm.. i thought they would use fiber optics, at much higher bandwidth switching between nodes... perhaps they can architect in a way, that lesser data is piped via the giabit wires.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4066
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 26 Jan 2014 12:14

Fiber optics would be resistant to emp weapons...also a good idea to have a fly by optics instead of the fbw for flight control.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2014 20:51

quite right kit.. but i was referring to the nodes interconnect in dhruva system, but your thought is valid even though such eventuality might not happen.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7534
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 27 Jan 2014 05:38

CFD stuff for aerodynamics work alone would need tremendous computing power.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2014 11:14

and specific areas include the transonic flows with the propsosed model for super cruise.

govardhanks
BRFite
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jun 2009 23:12
Location: Earth

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby govardhanks » 27 Jan 2014 11:18

kit wrote:Hmm the question would the amca achieve a good amount of stealth against surveillance and tracking radars that are deployed a decade later when it enters service or would it work only with the legacy systems that are state of the art now.. a wide band stealth will be achieved only by a 6th generation fighter that according to LM/ BOEING would have visual stealth as well.


Kit saab and Saik saab thanks for enlightening me, :)

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 27 Jan 2014 12:13

This is all up my alley. HPC is my research area, but I have no clue what you guys are discussing here :roll:

member_24146
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 30
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby member_24146 » 22 Feb 2014 16:44

Some official photos of AMCA's internal weapons bay, Taken from ADA's public domain video of AMCA. More photos HERE.

ImageImage
Image

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 24 Feb 2014 07:38


NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 24 Feb 2014 08:28

The latest J-31 from jane's, Nov, 2013:

Image

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 25 Feb 2014 02:19

Is there any way to verify this news item (I do not trust this web site)?

http://idrw.org/?p=33909

India’s 5th generation fighter aircraft program Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA ) might use ‘No Risk ‘ engine which practically means , AMCA will be powered by Existing engine this was informed by Drdo chief to a defence magazine when asked about power house for AMCA .

He also informed that they are currently looking for a suitable engine which will allow them to have first roll out of AMCA TD-1 in 2018 and have its first flight by 2020 . AMCA project was briefly suspended by ADA on orders of MOD to fasten up work in achieving IOC -2 for Lca Tejas , now it is official that Work on AMCA is back on track and work on the project has commenced .

For a while there were talks that new engine will be developed with help of French by mating M-88 core with India’s Kaveri engine but according to buzz in aviation circle is that talks with French have failed due to opposition by IAF who wanted new engine to be developed based on current Kaveri engine and was not in support of such joint venture .

Interesting questions still remains which engines will power AMCA ? We’ll according to many media reports AMCA will be powered by Two 90-110 KN engines with thrust vectoring capabilities , only engines which currently Fits the bill of thrust vectoring capability is AL-31 engines currently powering IAF’s Su-30MKI but each AL-31 engines produces 123KN of power , which seems like a over kill for an 25 tonnes Medium category aircraft , Then again even AL-41 engine which will power FGFA belongs to a Heavy category class and will not be viable for AMCA .

Another Russian option could be R-33OVT engines which comes with 3D thrust vectoring capability and the same non thrust vector variant powers Naval Mig-29K and Mig-29SMT upgraded aircrafts in IAF . HAL currently builds them locally under licence and in terms of power will suit the bill but then again this engine are no next generation cutting edge technology which are usually associated with 5th generation planes .

Last one who can chip in are American GE corporation Which can offer enhanced variant of F-414 and have experimented with thrust vectoring in the past but then again such modification and testing takes it own time . But there is likely chance that first AMCA TD -1 might be powered by Non thrust vectoring engines which will allow enough time for Americans to carry out necessary testing and modifications on the final engine which will power Prototypes .

We have put together possible scenarios based on current availability , even if we start developing a new engine for AMCA it is likely that it won’t be ready before first flight of AMCA .


* Good to know that the earlier news, that they will wait for the LCA MKII to complete, is not true. Never made any sense anyways and could never verify it either
* IAF (supposedly) putting foot down on the engine? FGFA grips could also be filed under this category. ?????
* Do not know, but I would think the AMCA would need a designed engine to fit the AMCA. I very much doubt that an "existing" one will do

member_23360
BRFite
Posts: 152
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby member_23360 » 25 Feb 2014 06:54

engines were supposed to be stealthy ones. for e.g. ( f 119, yf 120)

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9866
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Yagnasri » 25 Feb 2014 07:38

Gurus - One mango man question - YF23 design seems to be almost the same and it does not have thrust vectoring etc Right? Are we following YF23 concepts now?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 25 Feb 2014 08:01

forget stealthy engines, just get it flying with GE414 or M88. we are already a decade behind the J35 program.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9866
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Yagnasri » 25 Feb 2014 08:10

One more US engine based aircraft? Somehow i am not sure we can trust Khan that much. M88 may be.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 25 Feb 2014 08:37

There was an article commenting on the criticism from the IAF on the FGFA (cannot find it at the moment). A commentator, in that article, stated that one of teh reasons the Russians could be facing issues is the engine. He was of the opinion that any 5th Gen plane has to have a proper engine. Which is why my comment in my previous post.

It seems to tie into the belief of a "5th Gen engine" - although I have no clue what that is.

Also, the Russians are building an engine for the PAK-FA (supposed to come out in 2020). So, that also ties into this story.

So, if at all AMCA goes for an "existing" engine: the derated one from (tada) F-35.

(Cued for UAC to deny all this. : ) )


On the resemblance to the YF-23, remember that the AMCA team arrived at that after (IIRC) two other design considerations (I had posted them some pages ago). Again, IIRC, this design means speed (as opposed to what else I am not sure, but I suspect maneuverability/agility)

What I did find "missing" is (my fav) fly by light. : ( But .................. one has to give up a few good things in life.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 25 Feb 2014 12:45

India should use derated AL-31 engines for AMCA for the testing process which may continue till 2025 and push the development of Kaveri 115/78kn engine in next ten years.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 25 Feb 2014 13:12

hopefully derated AL31 wont mean another Al55. otherwise the idea is perfect on paper.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 25 Feb 2014 13:28

al-31 is far too large for the AMCA. it's 50% larger and heavier than kaveri.

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20453 » 25 Feb 2014 14:30

Ideal to go for the GE F414 EPE, plenty of commonality with LCA MK-2 engines, long term working relation with GE, cheaper than the EJ2000 and most certainly M-88, far better tech with continuous innovation including usage of CMCs in the core and hence drastic weight reduction. It remains the most reliable engine ever made, no crashes yet due to engine failure.

http://ainonline.com/aviation-news/nbaa ... ry-service

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 25 Feb 2014 16:32

There is no other TVC engine apart from AL-31 which is readily available to India.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 944
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby sankum » 01 Mar 2014 03:27

Latest official photos of AMCA's internal weapons bay does not show side weapon bays for IR sraam like earlier designs.

The weapon bay can be estimated to be of dimensions 4m to 4.3m by 1.8m sufficient to carry 2 1000kg jdams and 2 BVR AAM for self defence.

Just like F35 IR SRAAM for ccm will be carried on outermost wing pylons.

My estimate is that it will carry all internal weapons which can be carried in front belly internal weapon bay of FGFA which is of 1.1 m width plus 2 BVR AAM for self defence as standard fit to give a internal weapon bay width of 1.8m.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 01 Mar 2014 03:44

For what it is worth ............... perhaps nothing ..............this from the French...

Feb 6, 2014 :: Snecma tightens India ties

LCA ... and AMCA

There is another project, however, that could result in high-level cooperation between Snecma and Indian industry, even though the French firm declines to comment on the matter. In 2007, India published a call for tenders for joint development of a 9 tonne engine for the light combat aircraft (LCA) programme. Early in 2010, Snecma was officially selected to participate in the programme; the idea at the time was to develop a slightly more powerful version of the Rafale’s M88 engine under the Kaveri K10 project.

This project was subsequently abandoned when India dropped plans to equip the Tejas with an indigenous engine. Nonetheless, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) later tested its locally developed Kaveri K9 in Russia, on an Il-76 flying testbed. India is currently considering development of a K9 derivative, without afterburner, to equip a future UCAV.

However, this is not the end of story. India recently issued a new Request for Information for co-development of a more powerful engine, in the 12-13t class. Presumably this would be used to power the future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a 30t twin-engine design that could enter service next decade. Logically, one would expect Snecma to respond to this RfI, even though, on this occasion, in view of the required thrust class, the technology strategy will probably be different from the Kaveri K10 — despite its substantial growth potential, the Rafale’s M88 was not designed to operate in this thrust class.


And then this .....................

Feb 19, 2014 :: An 'engine' for India's growth

The fact that HAL can now effectively re-negotiate for better deals is also indicative of the fact that the Indian aerospace sector now has more options than it did in the wake of 1998 Pokhran tests. Early in 2013 the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), DRDO's jet engine design laboratory, revealed that the MoD had discontinued discussions with Snecma on bringing it as a partner for improving GTRE's GTX-35VS Kaveri engine. Although de-linked from the Tejas program, India needs to keep building on the Kaveri program for newer programs like the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project.

Given the specifications of the AMCA a much higher thrust engine than the designed output of the Kaveri will be required for the AMCA even though it is envisioned as a twin engine aircraft. Accordingly, tender documents show that GTRE's next turbofan is in the 110 KN wet and 75 KN dry thrust category. An engine of this capability will certainly require GTRE to master single crystal blade(SCB) technology, integrated rotor disk and blades and super alloys of nickel and cobalt. The Kaveri currently uses directionally solidified blade technology and neither that nor even first generation SCBs which can now be fashioned in India will suffice for the new engine. Snecma far from agreeing to transfer any relevant technologies was instead offering that the Kaveri's Kabini core be replaced by a Snecma ECO core which is the heart of the Snecma M88 that powers the Dassault Rafale.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 01 Mar 2014 08:38

well without really mastering and putting in reliable service a kaveri std engine, how are we going to make the huge leap to not only a bigger engine but another generation ahead?

this is like a kid who is struggling to pass out of class8 being asked to sit for the class10 board exams.

and pray who will "TOT" us the huge missing gaps in design, materials and production and make this happen within 7 years...the AMCA cannot wait forever being already a decade behind similar project in Cheen J35.

japan and korea have 5th gen projects and might have been amenable if we joined our project with their for the sake of volume. i wonder if they are having domestic engine projs also.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 01 Mar 2014 11:04

IIRC had asked for collaboration on LP section only of new 115/78kn engine. The RFP was also restricted to 3-4 companies. Can anybody locate it?

Also with new engine in the region of 115/78kn, the AL-31 engine does not look bad for the PV of AMCA.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 01 Mar 2014 11:10


Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 01 Mar 2014 13:06

we should probably design and build the AMCA to size with the 117S interim al41f1s variant used in the PAKFA. it has provision for tvc.
that presents the most risk free path to our new design because AL31 family will be in service with us and russia for decades.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 01 Mar 2014 13:28

this whole gtre stuff makes me feel sick. they have bungled k-program management total! snecma is not the right partner for gtre, jmt. apologies and due respect to those who struggled to get k going.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20317 » 01 Mar 2014 17:10

Kaveri for the UCAV keeps getting mentioned but is it really that simple.

I have heard at various times Kaveri 9 (which is what we have in hand) as having been described as a turbofan as well as a leaky turbojet. But is a leaky turbojet the same as a low bypass turbofan. IOW would a higher bypass of a turbojet bring it closer in terms of design to a lower bypass of a turbofan. The stationary components - inside of the nacelles and exterior of the core has only the fan as the moving part (there may be other things perhaps) but will it not also make it difficult to manage the entrails of the core with a bigger fan. Will everything get stabilized as easily. I remember perhaps on this forum itself it was mentioned how the Viggen engine ended up as a compromise as it made a reverse journey from being a civilian engine to being a military engine, ending up as a compromise.

I am not doubting the ability of our engineers who will most likely produce the product as required esp. since the afterburning was the problematic part and the requirements in a UCAV are expected to be significantly relaxed. However this required product and the work involved itself may be a good reason to treat it as a new product and not necessarily a Kaveri K-9 lite (K-11!? perhaps, hence more committed and structured funding :P).

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4701
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 01 Mar 2014 17:46

So there is possibility of Thrust Vectoring in EJ-200:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurojet_EJ200

In 2009, Eurojet entered a bid, in competition with General Electric’s F414, to supply a thrust vectoring variant of the EJ200 to power the HAL Tejas.

After evaluation and acceptance of the technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lower bidder.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 01 Mar 2014 18:02

Rather than going for future unknown possibilities, better to go with something we already use. So it should be either AL-31 or F-414 or their followups.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 01 Mar 2014 18:33

Tvc at high alt permits lesser use of control surfaces and improves low rcs profile iirc.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21053
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 01 Mar 2014 18:51

I was always for the EJ as the engine for the LCA MK-2,with its TVC options.It would've been ideal for the AMCA.As of now,the best option for the first prototypes LSPs would be the TVC engine used on the MIG-29/35s which we are already manufacturing (without TVC).Supporting it will be no problem as the upgraded 29s and IN's 29Ks use the same.2020 is a long time for this engine to be improved for a stealth fighter,and in choosing it would accelerate the arrival of the bird.Looking at a production start from around 2025,after extensive testing of whatever exotic tech it comes with,NR's wish for FBL hopefully,developing an improved or new engine has a decade's time in which to perfect it.TVC is essential for dogfighting as it cannot carry a huge load of weaponry internally.

My only doubt about the medium sized stealth birds is the limitation of missiles that can be carried in its internal weapons bay.Anything underwing/fuselage affects stealth.A larger bird also has more endurance,loitering capability and about double the arsenal of weaponry.This is what is plaguing the JSF which was never designed to be better than an F-16 in aerial combat. It has several well-known liabilities in dogfighting. As has been found in exercises,the small MIG-21 of '50s vintage,with a low RCS and great speed and acceleration,has outperformed more celebrated fighters of the US.This bodes well for the LCA in the future.If it only had a truly great engine .The LCA design should be tweaked to see if a stealth/partial stealth version-a MK-3 cannot be developed with conformal weapon stations or even stealth pods for missiles.


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests