AMCA News and Discussions

brar_w
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 11 Feb 2019 21:02

gaurav.p wrote:
what is difference between 5th gen and 5+gen aircrafts?


It is literally any set of attributes that you can come up with as this is a generally a matter of marketing and trying to position a product with a defined set of capabilities. I remember that an Editor at AvWeek a few years ago was trying to push the Gripen-E as 6th generation... :rotfl:

More importantly, it is the set of capabilities that the end-user determines it needs to meet certain clearly articulated mission needs. So if you wanted to be logical about it, think of 5+ gen as a set of capabilities beyond those currently possessed by 5th generation aircraft that either allow the 5+ genreation aircraft to conduct the same missions more effectively or opens up new missions.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 11 Feb 2019 21:51

UK has a powerful media machinery.

they will position the Tempest as 6th gen and make it stick as much better than JSF mk2.

like a indulgent dad with a boastful son, the US will tolerate this mostly, until such time when they contest for a export order.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Feb 2019 00:29

well UK mic is on last legs. There is no harm in chai biscoot, They can be our guest through air india in ITC guest houses.

On a different note, could it be that AMCA was delayed because of Tejas. Few things may be tested on tejas, a proven flying platform, rather than AMCA.

What are the #requirements of AMCA? Sometime back I mentioned 6-10 sqdns, But there was disagreement around it. I would not expect us to invest anything in R&D for anything less than that. With PAKFA not in sight, there is scope for AMCA to fill in some of the roles. IIRC we had plans for some ~7 sqdns for fgfa in early 2010s

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Feb 2019 01:39

http://idrw.org/trap-set-by-uk-to-choke-iafs-neck/
While it is an IDRW article. I like the tone and tenor of the article. In public discourse, quite often the role of shakuni brushed under the panthean of characters. I have never seen the analogy of shakuni in recent past. The author must be credited for bringing it back and giving the britshits what they deserve. That said, I am all for chai biskoot with bretards (that's my term for post brexit britishs)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 12 Feb 2019 05:46

brar_w wrote:
gaurav.p wrote:
what is difference between 5th gen and 5+gen aircrafts?


It is literally any set of attributes that you can come up with as this is a generally a matter of marketing and trying to position a product with a defined set of capabilities. I remember that an Editor at AvWeek a few years ago was trying to push the Gripen-E as 6th generation... :rotfl:

More importantly, it is the set of capabilities that the end-user determines it needs to meet certain clearly articulated mission needs. So if you wanted to be logical about it, think of 5+ gen as a set of capabilities beyond those currently possessed by 5th generation aircraft that either allow the 5+ genreation aircraft to conduct the same missions more effectively or opens up new missions.


Yes, Bill Sweetman. :lol:

He was so dead set against the F-35, calling it a lemon and a truck and what not that he started promoting the Gripen E/F left right and center. Lost a lot of his credibility with that stuff.

Reminds me of another such pompous ass in India named Prof Prodyut Das, who is so offended by the LCA program that he will even criticize it as being overweight, while extolling another program (the JF-17) and not mentioning that its empty weight is even slightly greater.

People with agendas who get to write articles in journals that are widely (or at least somewhat widely) read.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 12 Feb 2019 12:48

^ But nothing beats the folks of UAC/pravda. They are leap frogging direct to the 8th Gen :mrgreen:

Russia's eighth-generation aircraft to put NATO on its knees

Well almost nothing.. anyday i expect the chinese to announce their next gen fighter will come with first gen wrap tech.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 14 Feb 2019 08:41

Well, finally managed to get the youtube channel unblocked. Here's a walkaround of the model at defexpo last year.


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 19 Feb 2019 19:53

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097858393073692672 ---> AMCA will fit into our fifth generation requirement. If it comes up in time, it will be our first option,” says the Indian Air Force.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby hemant_sai » 19 Feb 2019 20:14

SaiK wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097858393073692672 ---> AMCA will fit into our fifth generation requirement. If it comes up in time, it will be our first option,” says the Indian Air Force.

I would have loved to hear from IAF that they do not expect any import post 2024/25.

Make IAF an accountable party to AMCA development and give a clear message that "There is no other option".

It should be clearly notified that there will not be any import of fighter aircraft or fighter helicopter post 2024/25. Here import should be linked to actual schedule of delivery and not signing of contract. Just no delivery of imported fighters post 2024/25.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 20 Feb 2019 01:44

AMCA, India's first stealth fighter, likely to be airborne before 2025
https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... -amca.html

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 20 Feb 2019 02:00

^^ The article refers to AMCA having DSI. The models seem to indicate having splitter plates. Is there any other confirmations on DSI yet? Also what would be the performance penalty of having DSI? I seem to recall reading somewhere DSI limits the max speed to upto Mach 2. If max speed is impacted then there could also be penalty for supercruise. If any gurus can shed some light on this please.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 20 Feb 2019 08:17

I dont know where he got that from.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Feb 2019 08:45

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098052816986349568 ---> The AMCA display at Aero India 2019. The IAF said yesterday that this platform will be their priority 5th generation procurement ‘if it comes up in time’. A huge ‘if’, but work on at full pace. Update shortly.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 22 Feb 2019 01:23

with 3300 kgs of fuel in MWF, I don't think AMCA will have any less fuel than 6600 kgs. I think it will be closer to 8000 kgs as carrying external fuel tanks is really difficult to keep stealth advantage.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Feb 2019 01:33

we have to be extremely careful in not to delink stores and weapons as "stealth", and keep those separated as the stealth definition changes if we can fire any non-stealthy weapons from a stealthy platform.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 02:07

ADA should consider using some of the design ideas from AMCA in to LCA MK2, like the nose cone, boxy intake.

Will greatly help AMCA development.

If wishes were horse, they should have taken the AMCA design as the base and create a non-internal bay version of it..

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 02:11

nam wrote:ADA should consider using some of the design ideas from AMCA in to LCA MK2, like the nose cone, boxy intake.

Will greatly help AMCA development.


How many years of re-design, wind tunnel testing and risk do you think the IAF should be willing to cede for this to happen? Lets be realistic, the MWF is a really good and ambitious project and if everything goes smoothly it has a likelihood of being delivered to operational squadrons towards the end of the 2020's. Add some margin as risk which is quite common in the A&D sector. I don't think any additional risk should be added at this point. Let ADA and HAL deliver this at 24-48 aircraft a year by 2030. That will be a major achievement.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2019 02:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Feb 2019 02:12

If the engines to be used is same on both MWF Mk2 and AMCA, then I would seriously consider the same team to work out concurrent and component based LRUs to satisfy both these projects in one shot! lower costs, and lesser jigs and production systems.

We have to keep concurrency in mind going forward

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 02:17

In my opinion, it would be a very poor decision to add any more risk to the program and tinker around with trying to change things to allign with the AMCA at this point (beyond sensors, and avionics). ADA and HAL have to deliver the MWF within a reasonable time-frame as their primary customer (IAF) has replacement needs which usually have a cost and readiness component if delayed. The success of the AMCA depends upon the success of the MWF effort as the team and suppliers will learn and will be able to apply that knowledge. Most critical thing is to put an operational MWF out by 2030. A decade to do this is reasonable and should be doable if they are properly supported though the margins would be tight as there is always risk with advanced aerospace projects of this caliber.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2019 02:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 02:23

brar_w wrote:
How many years of re-design, wind tunnel testing and risk do you think the IAF should be willing to cede for this to happen? Lets be realistic, the MWF is a really good and ambitious project and if everything goes smoothly it has a likelihood of being delivered to operational squadrons towards the end of the 2020's. Add some margin as risk which is quite common in the A&D sector. I don't think any additional risk should be added at this point. Let ADA and HAL deliver this at 24-48 aircraft a year by 2030. That will be a major achievement.


If not for IAF, they should consider it for IN LCA, given it is now a divergent design anyways. ADA should utilize other projects to de-risk AMCA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 02:30

I am so tempted to use the non-stealth AMCA as a MK2 solution, given that both are expected to have flight one year apart.

Get a non-stealth optimized version by 2023 and works towards IOC. Get the true stealth by 2024-25 and carry on.

It meets the medium category requirement, de-risk AMCA hugely.

Drawback is 2 engine, however MK2 is expected to replace Mig-29 & Jag, both dual engines!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 22 Feb 2019 12:16

‘First AMCA flight in 6 years’: We interview the Director of India’s fifth generation stealth fighter program

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098802839038685185

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2019 12:26

even if their first flights may happen close together, the MWF will reach IOC and FOC clean and fast as it will be based on proven Tejas tech base and available technology.

AMCA will need a host of new techs developed over next decade wrt to LO techs - materials, coatings, thermal sig, RF antenna sigs, .... new aesa radar , a host of EW sensors , new weapons for its internal bay if astra1/2/sant/saaw/brahmosNG need mods
I would expect a 10 year test program from first flight to IOC - BEST CASE.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Bharadwaj » 22 Feb 2019 12:51

Dr. Gosh being understandably cagey about things... This is one program that needs to be structured like the N subs where funds and component procurement policies are not a hurdle.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 22 Feb 2019 15:42

As per the NGTD eoi, vendor chosen will have to deliver the first TD in 3.5 years from contract signing. If VEM technology is chosen already, won't they have to deliver the first airframe by 2022 end?
We might very well be seeing first flight in 2023. Hopefully it could be in the first half.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 15:48

VEM is delivering empty 1:1 airframe for RCS testing.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 22 Feb 2019 15:51

Isn't that's what the TD will be used for primarily? RCS measurements? to establish the geometric stealth.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 15:53

Singha wrote:even if their first flights may happen close together, the MWF will reach IOC and FOC clean and fast as it will be based on proven Tejas tech base and available technology.

AMCA will need a host of new techs developed over next decade wrt to LO techs - materials, coatings, thermal sig, RF antenna sigs, .... new aesa radar , a host of EW sensors , new weapons for its internal bay if astra1/2/sant/saaw/brahmosNG need mods
I would expect a 10 year test program from first flight to IOC - BEST CASE.


A non-full stealth version, use internal bay weapons only if available. Use the exact tech that is available for MK2. Once the stealth version is available with new weapons & tech, upgrade them if required.

ADA intend to have a version with external load. So create that first.

Fundamentally it will be a 2 engine LCA, with basic stealth shaping and usual composite. Will help the stealth program immensely to resolve flight testing and FBW.
Last edited by nam on 22 Feb 2019 16:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 15:56

souravB wrote:Isn't that's what the TD will be used for primarily? RCS measurements? to establish the geometric stealth.


I guess they want to optimize the shape before building the TD. Rather than build the TD and then optimise it. I think it is sensible.

Given that fundamentally everyone is doing F22 clones, it should fly fine, with help from CLAW.

Reading that the shell for RCS testing will be available by end of this year.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 22 Feb 2019 16:29

Nam ji, yes that seems more logical than what I posted.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Feb 2019 21:21

^^phillipji we can always buy from Russia, let the kids try out something. let 5 programs fly :)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 21:30

Philip wrote:As siad before, we can leapfrog 5th-gen tech by trying to turn the Mk-2 into a 5th-grn SE stealth bird ( which will have a good market)


How do you leapfrog 5th gen tech by trying to create another "5th gen stealth bird"? If you restrict yourself to a the OML of the MWF and try to make that into a stealth/LO design you will end up an extremely compromised aircraft with very poor combat performance, and fairly low range/payload and persistence. Low Observability requirement extracts some cost when it comes to weight, drag and overall design as to be 5th gen and LO you have to have an IWB, and have to be able to carry a large amount of fuel internally. There is a good reason that no one has attempted a single engine stealth fighter in this size/weight class. Once you add requirements for combat radius and persistence (similar to what many 4th gen aircraft get with EFT'/CFTs) and a decent payload (enough to be of utility given certain pre-defined mission scenarios) you end up with something that needs a minimum of 180-200 kN of thrust and once you go there you need 7000-8000 kg of fuel to cover most of the missions that 4+ gen MWF would have covered. There is no pixie dust that you can sprinkle over the MK2 that will magically transform it into a 5th generation aircraft with LO and other bells and whistles. Things do not work that way.

Low Observability and 5th generation capability pays off most in the offensive mission where you can utilize its advantages to get closer to the enemy and exploiting gaps in its defenses. You need this, despite the absurd and ill thought out claims of some that SO weapons can do everything, because your enemy always has a vote and is unlikely to be foolish enough to present some nice, juicy targets that are fixed and that can be mission planned hours if not days in advance - There will be many many targets that you will have to find, fix and the enemy will do its best to degrade your networks, move those high value capabilities (not fixed) and have plenty of decoys making discrimination challenging. In order to do this you need a decent magazine and good range/payload.

There is a reason why we have 8-10 5th generation aircraft or proposals from around the world and NONE have ever presented a light-medium class single engine stealth fighter. The performance penalty would make it a single trick pony capable of a small set of missions relatively close to its air-base. If the market for such a product is so good, why has no one anywhere around the world figured this out yet?

ADA and HAL work for a customer and the IAF has needs to replace the MiG-29's and M2K's beginning in the 2020's - 2030's and eventually thinking about replacing some of the early Su-30's in the 2035 timeframe. For the former the MWF is perfectly suited, if it can be readied in numbers by the early 2030s. For the latter, at least part of the mission can be replaced by the AMCA starting mid 2030's with other components being replaced by UAV/UCAVs and a potential 5th generation fighter purchase later next decade depending upon how things are going.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 21:57

Philip wrote:THE ADA/ DRDO claim that they know all about 5th-gen birds and can do it.Therefore why wait for 2030 when 5th-gen will be passe?


No, ADA/DRDO claims that they have a path to get to 5th generation within the normal development, risk and time frame associated with such an advanced A&D project. There should be no doubt that this will be a 15+ year effort involving tackling of some really hard challenges that only a few in the world have so far surmounted.

Your statement about "why wait for 2030" shows a very high level of ignorance when it comes to understanding of how advanced A&D projects work, how many challenges need to be overcome to actually get high performance advanced combat aircraft to fruition. In the 1980's, Northrop engineers adopted the motto “A Miracle A Day” while working on the B-2 bomber engineering program. This work is really challenging and will involve a lot of "Firsts" for ADA (design), HAL (production) and other suppliers. What they are saying is that they have enough technology and knowledge in hand to embark on this journey...they cant sprinkle some fairy dust and compress the 15+ years it will take to actually field this aircraft into a 5-10 year period of performance. In fact no one in the world can. Boeing took 8 years from EMD contract award to IOC on the Super Hornet which was a major re-design of the Classic Hornet. Getting it to its first cruise took an additional 2.5 years for a total of 11 years of performance from contract award to actually sending the sub-variant into an operational deployment. This despite having a lot of wind tunnel data from Northrop's various planned upgrades to the basic configuration. The EMD time frames for a 5th generation aircraft are in the 15-17 year horizon not because people just like going slow but because these things are quite hard to do.

With the MK2/MWF ADA/HAL are proposing an aircraft that can basically get you close to 80% of what the Rafale delivers today and with the AMCA in the mid 2030's this will likely hold true for 5th generation aircraft that currently exist. This would be an amazing achievement and will have spillover effects across other A&D disciplines and requirements for future weapon needs of the IA, IAF and IN..

Philip wrote:The earlier statements that our AMCA would first fly sometime post 2030 is simply disastrous.


No it isn't. ADA and HAL have just delivered a top class 4+ generation aircraft and are now rightly embarking on a protracted development phase for the next jump in its capability to develop high end combat aircraft. These things aren't handed to you by god but developed through dedication and decades of hard work and by overcoming a heck of a lot of technical challenges. If ADA/HAL can develop a 5th generation aircraft and put it into service by 2035, this will be a MAJOR achievement and something that is worth celebrating.

Philip wrote:.Do you think that yhe IAF will want the AMCA around 2035 when the Tempest (JV for dev.) SU-57, JSF and other goodies will be dangled in front of their noses post 2020?


Do you think the IAF will want an LCA MK1 and MK1A when the Rafale, MiG-35, F-16, F/A-18 and EF Typhoon are being dangled in front of it and have been for over a decade now? Is the IAF not committed to the LCA MK1 and its iterations?

The IAF needs to plan for fleet recapitalization as well as figure out where it needs to grow qualitatively and quantitatively over the next 2 decades. There is plenty of room to absorb all LCA sub-variants, and the AMCA even from a pure fleet replacement point of view. Even if the IAF goes for Su-57, F-35 or a 2040's Tempest/SCAF there is no way that these aircraft can meet 100% of the IAF's fleet replacement needs in the 2030-2050 time-frame let alone meet any targets to actually enhance the size of the force depending upon threat perception during that timeframe.


There is a huge market for an SE stealth fighter.


Absolutely! 131 F-35's will be produced this calendar year alone nearly 40 more than the 90 odd produced in 2018. But there is little to no market for a single engine stealth fighter that can't fight most of the battles because it has a unusable payload and does not have the legs to actually get meaningful range/payload to target. To overcome those you need some basic performance which then moves you to a range of thrust requirements and weapons carriage ability/flexibility that I highlighted earlier. The design trades then basically force you to a twin engine configuration because sticking with a SE design you limit yourself to exactly 1 engine choice to choose from.

There is a difference between a single engine stealth fighter and a single engine stealth fighter that resembles the Tejas MK2/MWF in design parameters such as weight, range, engine/thrust etc. The former is currently the best selling fighter in the world, the latter concept is not being looked at by anyone with either the resources or the need to develop a 5th generation aircraft. And for good reason!
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2019 22:28, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2019 22:12

Enough trolling Philip. You will NOT post on this thread anymore and any more rants, running down Indian programs on specious reasons, will attract a warning.
We had a good discussion and decent information flowing in, and your poorly researched rants are as usual detracting from quality posts.
Enough is enough.

Thanks,
KM

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Feb 2019 22:25

MiG-35 in 2020 is not obsolete but AMCA in 2030 is. Okay. The mental malkhamb vyayam required for this is out of bounds for mere mortals like us.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 22:37

Philip wrote:The F-35 is far too expensive for most nations and those outside the NATO bloc will never get yheir hands on one even if they havd the moolah.


Count the number of customers the F-35 has currently secured in North America, Europe and Asia. A vast portion of the ME market, barring Israel and Turkey, is yet untapped and will likely be opened up in the 2020's (KSA, UAE, Qatar, Jordan etc). The F-35 essentially has the vast majority of the F-16 and F/A-18 market covered. This then leaves other nations who also have the ability to, or want to develop the capability of developing 5th generation aircraft. Out of these, South Korea and Turkey (besides India) have announced plans, with the South Koreans even beginning fabrication of their first TD unit. Notice that all those designs are twin engined aircraft with overall thrust in the 180-200 kN class? Why do you think this is? Why do you think ADA and HAL are also sticking in this ballpark, and why Japan is also looking at a twin engined bird? Why have the Chinese put out two twin engined 5th generation aircraft?

What do you know that these nations do not?

Perhaps when you actually get into the technical specifics such as putting out a meaningful payload, or the ability to go a decent distance and actually perform the missions that require a new aircraft to replace older aircraft the idea of a single engine fighter in this class does not make sense for many of these teams?

If you want to actually develop a SE 5th generation aircraft that can cater to the F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, and Gripen replacement market then you essentially need to start off with a 180-190 kN thrust engine that has enough growth possibility to eventually deliver 220+ kN of thrust over its life as fighters usually require more thrusts over time as they add capability. The risk associated an engine program in this class is SIGNIFICANT and most would rather look to field a twin engined aircraft as there are many many options to choose from in the 20-22K lb thrust class and this significantly reduces the overall risk to the program.

If you have actually done some hard analysis then by all means share what you think the market size for a SE 5th Gen. aircraft is, what attributes (performance and cost) the said aircraft should possess to gain a threshold share within this market, and what fleet replacement needs (or additional incremental capability) such an aircraft offers for the various legacy aircraft operators out there and why the current and planned market options (F-35, KFX, TFX, AMCA, J-31 etc) cannot cater to that need.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 23 Feb 2019 03:39

brar_w wrote:
Philip wrote:The F-35 is far too expensive for most nations and those outside the NATO bloc will never get yheir hands on one even if they havd the moolah.


Count the number of customers the F-35 has currently secured in North America, Europe and Asia. A vast portion of the ME market, barring Israel and Turkey, is yet untapped and will likely be opened up in the 2020's (KSA, UAE, Qatar, Jordan etc). The F-35 essentially has the vast majority of the F-16 and F/A-18 market covered. This then leaves other nations who also have the ability to, or want to develop the capability of developing 5th generation aircraft. Out of these, South Korea and Turkey (besides India) have announced plans, with the South Koreans even beginning fabrication of their first TD unit. Notice that all those designs are twin engined aircraft with overall thrust in the 180-200 kN class? Why do you think this is? Why do you think ADA and HAL are also sticking in this ballpark, and why Japan is also looking at a twin engined bird? Why have the Chinese put out two twin engined 5th generation aircraft?

What do you know that these nations do not?

Perhaps when you actually get into the technical specifics such as putting out a meaningful payload, or the ability to go a decent distance and actually perform the missions that require a new aircraft to replace older aircraft the idea of a single engine fighter in this class does not make sense for many of these teams?

If you want to actually develop a SE 5th generation aircraft that can cater to the F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, and Gripen replacement market then you essentially need to start off with a 180-190 kN thrust engine that has enough growth possibility to eventually deliver 220+ kN of thrust over its life as fighters usually require more thrusts over time as they add capability. The risk associated an engine program in this class is SIGNIFICANT and most would rather look to field a twin engined aircraft as there are many many options to choose from in the 20-22K lb thrust class and this significantly reduces the overall risk to the program.

If you have actually done some hard analysis then by all means share what you think the market size for a SE 5th Gen. aircraft is, what attributes (performance and cost) the said aircraft should possess to gain a threshold share within this market, and what fleet replacement needs (or additional incremental capability) such an aircraft offers for the various legacy aircraft operators out there and why the current and planned market options (F-35, KFX, TFX, AMCA, J-31 etc) cannot cater to that need.


I think i understand your point ; the single-engine fighter you are alluding to is the MWF that is the LCA mark 2 , meaning it will replace the low end of the mix, the high end is the AMCA is the stealth class heavy fighter in evolution., its just that Indians do things in increments but they will get there., what flies now ( Indian Standard Time :mrgreen: ) is better than a superfighter on the drawing boards.

Karan M
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 03:44

Philips usual rants have been deleted.

Please get back to quality discussion on the AMCA.

Thanks.

Karan M
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 03:46

nam wrote:
Singha wrote:even if their first flights may happen close together, the MWF will reach IOC and FOC clean and fast as it will be based on proven Tejas tech base and available technology.

AMCA will need a host of new techs developed over next decade wrt to LO techs - materials, coatings, thermal sig, RF antenna sigs, .... new aesa radar , a host of EW sensors , new weapons for its internal bay if astra1/2/sant/saaw/brahmosNG need mods
I would expect a 10 year test program from first flight to IOC - BEST CASE.


A non-full stealth version, use internal bay weapons only if available. Use the exact tech that is available for MK2. Once the stealth version is available with new weapons & tech, upgrade them if required.

ADA intend to have a version with external load. So create that first.

Fundamentally it will be a 2 engine LCA, with basic stealth shaping and usual composite. Will help the stealth program immensely to resolve flight testing and FBW.


You can't develop a program like that.
Stealth is baked into the design via shaping and then RCS treatments add to it.
Can't expect making a non-stealth version of the AMCA will be easy or reduce time drastically.
All the core work of developing a fighter and making it fly, fight remains.

brar_w
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 23 Feb 2019 04:01

kit wrote:
I think i understand your point ; the single-engine fighter you are alluding to is the MWF that is the LCA mark 2 , meaning it will replace the low end of the mix, the high end is the AMCA is the stealth class heavy fighter in evolution., its just that Indians do things in increments but they will get there., what flies now ( Indian Standard Time :mrgreen: ) is better than a superfighter on the drawing boards.


That was not my point. Phillip wanted what essentially amounted to a light-medium weight SE stealth fighter or essentially a stealthified MK2. I was telling him that this is not possible without serious design compromises and the price that 5th generation/LO capability extracts shifts the weight and size closer to the medium-heavy class and most will then shift to a twin engined aircraft because essentially only 1 propulsion option exists if you wanted to develop something with a SE while still retaining performance that can satisfy the MiG-29/F-16/M2K/F/A-18 replacement need.

As Karan points out, a 5th gen aircraft is designed from the inside out with all design features that aid in its Low observability baked into the design from the very start. The order of magnitude reduction in RCS required to play in that category cannot be applied on something not designed for it from the very begining. Moreover, beyond design the production process also needs to shape up for this change. THIS is the best resource on what it takes from an engineering and industrial perspective on executing a 5th generation advanced fighter aircraft. It will be a long and hard road but the spillover affects of the capability ADA, HAL and its suppliers will get through the process has the potential to dramatically increase the capability to meet IA, IAF and IN needs across their respective weapons portfolios.

The MWF is something the IAF needs in the next decade to begin to replace some of the medium class fighters like the MiG-29, Jaguar and M2K etc. ADA and HAL are responding to their customers needs as the LCA cannot effectively meet this requirement without the planned modifications. The AMCA is going to have to be a completely fresh design with a completely different approach but they need to do both concurrently because of IAF's needs.


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