AMCA News and Discussions

[Philip]

Great analysis.Sell it to the IAF and ask ACM Browne to recommend cancelling the deal in favour of the AMCA! We who have yet to perfect a basic trainer ,or IJT or Saras,and are struggling 3 decades on to perfect the underpowered LCA MK-1 ,can wave PC Sorcar's magic wand and conjure up a non-paper plane,the AMCA anytime.

[srai]

AMCA is an absolute necessity if India wants to catchup to the Western/Russian combat aerospace technology in the next 20-years. India got into the FGFA program a bit too late and now based on IAF's revised orders it would seem FGFA will be PAK-FA with some customisation. So this is not a great leap-frog learning vehicle for India.

[NRao]

Great analysis.Sell it to the IAF and ask ACM Browne to recommend cancelling the deal in favour of the AMCA! We who have yet to perfect a basic trainer ,or IJT or Saras,and are struggling 3 decades on to perfect the underpowered LCA MK-1 ,can wave PC Sorcar's magic wand and conjure up a non-paper plane,the AMCA anytime.

May be it takes time to understand, then agree, some subtle topics.

The issue here is NOT a dissatisfied IAF. The planes are great.

The issue is about technology and therefore a potentially dissatisfied research entities.

Two very different things.

While the IAF and ACM Browne could be very, very happy (as with the FGFA), the DRDOs/HALs/ADAs/etc may not be. And that is a perfectly fine scenario.

The expectation that the Russian/Soviet technologies would filter into Indian industries has not happened. THAT is the basic issue. There was an expectation - right or wrong - that techs would filter and it did not happen.

BTW, Indian rockets and nukes were a result of the PC Sorcar effect. It is a great effect.

[Philip]

Very true.If it could happen with our rocketry and missiles,spectacular efforts by any standard,why haven't we had at least modest success with our aviation/aircraft projects,when our helicopter development has been far more successful? It isn't as if money has been tight-look at the huge cost-overruns.At least less ambitious projects like the basic trainer and IJT could've been developed earlier,instead of having to resort to knee-jerk acquisitions.There was a plan for an AJT derived from the Ajeet/Gnat many moons ago,but what happened? Even the decision for acquiring the Hawk took over two decades,a world record!

This why I've often asked for an audit of the DRDO's successes and failures,which will enable us to understand why some projects succeeded and why others didn't.It isn't as if we were world leaders in rocket and missile tech,we started from scratch.In fact,our aviation industry was far ahead of our space tech decades ago.There seems to be in the aviation sphere some fundamental structural flaws including attitude. There have been in the past some articles on the lost generation/years after the HF-24 venture.Why the HF-73,etc.,was shelved,or even a fuller more radical development of the Jaguar with a new wing and more powerful engines,more ambitious than the Darin upgrades.It is only now that we are doing (upgrade with Honeywell) what we should've done much earlier.In hindsight perhaps one also has to factor in the fact that at that time in history-during the Cold War,reluctance to pass on hot tech was common to both west and east.Even we did not get the very latest aircraft form Russia,like SU-24s,but received more tech after we used them successfully in the wars with Pak-a good advt. for Soviet exports,and modified them to perform better.

One sincerely hopes that with the FGFA project,the deal will be substantially worthwhile in terms of genuine tech transfer,as reported,going far beyond the screwdriver degree.Hopefully spin-offs from this venture will benefit our own indigenous efforts in the future.If not,with so many aspects to master,we have a very long and hard struggle ahead to achieve genuine "indigenisation".

[NRao]

I have no quarrel with the delays, but am not willing to assign the blame to any one entity. ALL three: MoD, Research Labs and the IAF are problems in their own ways. They all need to grow up and pull in the same direction.

Suggestion:

1) India delinks imports from domestic efforts. NO MORE ToT. To fill the gaps within missing squads, let the Russians build the FGFA and the French the Rafale - NO manufacturing them in India - the both are foreign planes and let the parent country build them. (This ToT stuff has never worked the way it was intended to. India should never have expected anyone to part with leading edge technologies - and just BTW, the Russians are NOT parting with anything earth shattering in the FGFA or the Akulas or the Smerches or the T-90. Nothing. Great as all things are, they are old techs from a Russian point of view. More on that later, if need be.)

2) India then concentrates on local planes: LCA/AMCA/IJT/Trainers/whatever_else. Do NOT depend on any one. Import with the intent of paying a full price - blood and flesh.

[Philip]

That thought has occurred,but wasn't the argument put forth a long time ago that that way would make us very vulnerable with respect to spares,etc.? The argument went that if we manufactured much of the same at home it would give us the ability to support the aircraft better,manufacturing spares here when required and not having to invest heavily in huge stocks of spares inventory.The Chinese have a solution,to reverse engineer as much as possible,with or without permission,mastering the tech., and developing what it cannot beg,borrow or steal,at home .

Now one major Indian pvt. entity I know is quietly making key components for some of our flagship projects,both firang and indigenous.If similarly some of TOT is shared with pvt. industry on a large scale,as our DPSUs cannot absorb the entire lot,TOT may be more successful,with Indian industry also benefiting in the long run.The offsets policy has to run its route somewhere.

[Sujata]

I would really like to see Indian Government think long term and invest in the future of the Indian Aerospace programs. The Sweden Government ,and country is not a better one vs India ,but they had the foresight to see past 5,10,or 20 years ,and invest in jet fighter industry ,and are very successful in the long run.

In my opinion some of you guys that post here are not here to support AMCA ,or anything to do with India being Self Sufficient in making their own Jet Fighters. Just like foreign governments have lobbyist to influence the Indian government to do what they want to be done ,and not what is right for the Great People of India in the long run.Some of you guys are just here to Deflect,sabotage,and promote other countries interest ,and not promote what's best for the India People,and it's Air Force.

Why can't India be self sufficient in making it's jet fighter ,and who would lose the most if they did? I see that even if the America gave the Blue prints of F-22 ,that HAL would not be able to make it.

For example the Car companies don't make a lot of money selling a car at a retail price,but they make a whole lot more when all of those people have to buy Spare Parts for their cars,because they all get old,and used up.India being dependent of other countries product not only hurts the present Indian Aerospace ,but also the future Aerospace industry because they will always be seeing their money go out the country,and not staying in it.

Why can't people see the big picture ,and see that a lot of people in India could be making a lot of money with not only making LCA,AMCA,and Stealth bomber for the IAF,but make even more when you export them ( lesser version) to other countries like Europe,and other Asian countries.

To start the process ,and to create that Aerospace industry would mean partnering up with Sweden and South Korean Aerospace industry then do so.They are much smaller countries that would not have an "Ego",and ulterior motive in not seeing India being in charge and successful in making they own Jet fighters.Move the small companies to India ,and start from there.

[Philip]

Sujata,that requires formidable political will,especially to deal with an entrenched babudom.Sadly,that is in short supply today.Mrs.G. turned us into a nuclear weapons capable power,plus kickstarted the IGMDP,etc.,Rajiv carried on the good work with OK'ing the LCA,etc. ABV with the P-2 tests saw our N-deterrent mature and turned us into a de-facto N-weapons state. Later leadership in the last decade failed to deliver in full,hesitant and indecisive describes the current dispensation-as an earlier post showed that the budget actually discouraged "indigenisation" ,runs contrary to its public mouthings.

[SaiK]

Again, it is important for AMCA to materialize, LCA Mk2 or Mkn achieves porting Kaveri engine on to it successfully.

[Philip]

I've posted some interesting details of the SoKo path towards developing a stealth fighter in the LCA td.There are two options being considered.A slightly larger than EF size twin-engined fighter and a single-engined fighter, an evolution from its supersonic light attack trainer.The latter being considered as easier to develop.Both options will not have the full stealth features as on the JSF and F-22,the SoKo industrial base being less able to deliver than that of the US .

[tushar_m]

some pics of AMCA(possibly) i found on net

[member_24146]

Few CGI of AMCA

[krishnan]

nice , so they went from tailless to this config and they should have atleast opened the engine nozzles

[Philip]

There seems to be an anomaly in the config. of the AMCA given the DRDO chief's statement that it will be "larger" than the FGFA.Secondly,are there any details given out as to how many missiles/payload the bird will carry,both in internal bays and underwing.

[NRao]

What is your hurry?

The shape seems to have been pretty much decided on. The size has been talked about.

The above CGIs seem to be based on the newer presentations, but they are his own. Browny points for effort, good work.

Please do not place the Labs in a hole and rubber stamp them on the AMCA. This pup will beat your fav FGFA too.

[member_24146]

.... The above CGIs seem to be based on the newer presentations, but they are his own. Browny points for effort, good work. ...

All pictures is taken from the ADA's video, which is in public domain from few months. (If I remember correctly, that video is on YouTube). All posted CGIs is from that video. Have few good pictures of AMCA's internal weapons bay, I will post it here soon.

[NRao]

.... The above CGIs seem to be based on the newer presentations, but they are his own. Browny points for effort, good work. ...

All pictures is taken from the ADA's video, which is in public domain from few months. (If I remember correctly, that video is on YouTube). All posted CGIs is from that video. Have few good pictures of AMCA's internal weapons bay, I will post it here soon.

Thanks. That is lot of work. Good work too and keep it coming. (The only suggestion I have is please remove the ADA emblem from your CGIs. Or make it much smaller than your URL.)

___________________

On a different note, whatever the ADA has put forth so far are referential models - best what-if solutions they have modeled so far. It is subject to change. And given that computing power is at their disposal (for that little thing called RCS) and materials are changing by the day (composites are no longer in that great a fashion) I for one would expect things to change - perhaps even dramatically. Radars are changing (growing smaller), using much, much less power, lighter, more powerful, more clarity, ............................ Who knows what this plane would look like. The FGFA is perhaps the best effort India has to this day. But I would not hold that as any type of standard (outside the engine), as good as it will be. The AMCA needs to stand on it's own legs.

[Manish_Sharma]

Euphoria of being partner in PAK FA / FGFA program is wearing off. Just for 144 FGFAs how wise it is of us to spend 30 billion dollars? Which will go higher as is russian nature, already there are reports of escalation in price. By 2025 it can easily go upto 50-60 billion dollars. That too for just 144 fighter jets.

We aren't going to get engine tech in this package.

No AESA tech in this package.

Neither IRST tech in this package.

If we had spent this 50 billion dollars to set up organisations all around nation to make engines, lighter stronger materials and design for landing gear, Astra Mk III missile on the lines of Meteor. Gone with JV development for few things to be used for AMCA.

That would have been pure gold investment. Now 60 billion dollars gone down in russian drain for just 144 jets

Through Tejas experience our designers already know the areas where we need help, in those areas we could have thrown money to get help + knowhow and made AMCA. But all sorts of kanjoosi will be shown by bean counters at MoD etc. while usual people will see the whole tamasha and make saintly remarks like "some people might remember I'd been saying since 2013 that AMCA should be cancelled and all the funds should be diverted to buy 30 more FGFAs for 15 billion dollars...."

As usual russian peddling network did its job with efficiency. First they offered a JV assuring that a separate FGFA will be created according to Bharat's needs like 2 seater version. Once we got hooked by paying 5 billion dollars they told us "ahem 2 seater isn't possible as it would affect the stealth........ so you only get 1 seater, no choice."

[NRao]

^^^^^

You do have a point - based on the current status.

[OT]
When the "FGFA" effort was first mooted, the idea was to actually design a dual seat plane for the IAF. Granted it was based on the Russian PAK-FA, yet the design of the FGFA meant a very good deal of actual "design".

The initial idea, therefore, involved design + testing. Two areas that the Labs (not the IAF) thought they could stand to gain a lot of knowledge.

In fact to cover the mistakes that made in the MKI program India -- as seen today -- got the Russians to mix Indian and Russian teams, hardware/software/etc, so the Russians could not do anything in isolation.

Well, with the dual seater was shot down -- due to cost and time, things changed dramatically. While the IAF got a great plane, the Indian Labs did not get what they wanted out of this deal: Design and testing experience. (One reason why I THINK the Labs are willing to ditch the 50% work that the IAF is now complaining about.) (Since the Labs are getting much less out of it, I would bail out too.)

I would expect the cost to be readjusted for the 144 planes. Which I would think would tick off the Russians - it should throw their computations for funds off a LOT.

But, I am of the opinion that the FGFA is great for the IAF but not for the Labs. Not something that the Russians will like due to a dramatic reduction is funds they will receive. I expect the costs to reduce to around $20 billion. A 1/3 "loss" to them. (I am not sure if this is what is making them escalate the "cost" right now.)
[\OT]

[SaiK]

I would say, get AMCA on a separate line as an augmentation of LCA. FGFA can be lower priority for this thread, and for IAF. FGFA does not come with what India may want.. atleast I don't see that coming.. it is nothing but an MKIzed platform. It is just a future MKI transition platform.

There are middlemen and our politicians, who are making big bucks on these deals.

[NRao]

AMCA needs to and will stand on its own two feet. Simply because of the technologies that are proposed for it. Irrespective of what any of us think of such techs as FbL, that is what it is, and, for that reason alone there are very, very few carryovers from other aircrafts.

Therefore the LCA needs its own thread.

And, so does the FGFA.

None of them should be dependent on the other (which I do no think they are) or even for that matter lean on the other.

[Manish_Sharma]

NRao ji, I have taken your post and put it in FGFA thread also for future data reference.

[NRao]

OK, (BR) AMCA. Build out. (Disclaimer: Not an expert, just a junkyard googler.)

Conformal radar effort:

Multiband Conformal Antennas contd..

Some areas of research include

Concept of fractal geometrics to be applied to antennas to explore and accomplish reduced size multiband antennas. These antennas can take advantage of self similar structure and space filling characteristics of fractal geometries.

Development of printable three dimensional, highly conductive metallization patterns on various substrate/dielectric mediums for advanced VHF/UHF antenna applications including ground and aerial vehicles.

Conformal phased array antennas

Bodyworn antennas for communication

Fragmented aperture antenna topologies

[NRao]

AESA Effort:

Sept, 2012 :: India Developing New AESA Radar for Light Combat Aircraft

[Singha]

I am sure we have many development projects but getting a proto into a deployable and supportable product form is a hard ride esp over the last 10% of work which never seems to end. holds true for any new leading edge product where the institution is stretching up its knowledge base. mistakes are common, and infact can be expected. problems in HW design & manufacturing are also common even in cos with a long product history in that domain .... respins of boards, internal and third-party asics due to bugs, new fpga images on a monthly basis to fix bugs. cos like netz with a 25 yr tail of institutional knowledge routinely face such issues in every new project...not to speak of the umpteen sw bugs we munnas are paid to introduce as a additional chaos layer on top of unknown hw

[SaiK]

It requires great maturity in dealing with PLM and engineering.. even the most advanced maturity model cos face problems in terms of ready availability of product intelligence, especially to predict the course of actions to be taken. this is where hard core handson sdres who has the knack of tfta lacing becomes vital.. and this what GE and others do.

[Philip]

From a cursory examination of aviation projects worldwide,aircraft development has often,more the norm been one of incremental development and tech sharing across types.I therefore wonder how we can isolate the three major types in the pipeline,LCA,FGFA and future AMCA,as "stand-alone" projects without tech benefits of each being used across the board.If we look at avionic eqpt. alone,Indian eqpt. has found its way into most of the IAF's types in service increasing standardisation.Unless there is a pooling of resources,esp. scientific,of which we are in short supply,we may run the risk of perpetuating the situ prevalent a few decades ago to date,when we had miscellaneous Russian French and British aircraft along with their varied supply chain and maintenance problems.The goal is now to reduce types and establish as much commonality as possible.

That a two-seater would have a larger RCS than a single-seater for the FGFA is a no-brainer.So the accusation that we were "duped" by the Russians is specious.All available info has it that the time and cost of developing the same by HAL would delay induction and increase costs,esp for just a few sqds. of two-seaters.Secondly,worldwide,planned numbers of stealth fighters for air forces (barring the US for the JSF) are being drastically reduced ,as the high cost of acquisition,anti-stealth developments and very high maintenance levels required for stealth aircraft has led to a rethink as to how many even a developed nation can afford.The increasing use of UCAVs/drones has also led to a rethink on numbers of manned fighters in the inventory of air forces.

The IAF/HAL should work towards synergising their efforts in combined tech development for these three crucial + MMRCA projects ,using whatever is worthwhile and relevant in futuristic tech as much as each project can accommodate within its own distinctive design envelope.

With the recent interviews of the new DRDO chief,it appears that some reorganisation of DPSUs and setting up of core labs-for engine development,one example as mentioned,is on the cards,very welcome.However,results cannot be expected immediately,we have to be patient and somehow manage the task of developing indigenous tech and reliable cost-effective weapon systems and their components involving both public and pvt. enterprise,while seeing that the services are not shortchanged for their daily needs essential in maintaining our security.We will have to live with both imports and hopefully a steady rise in % of indigenous products for some time to come.

[Manish_Sharma]

^ So 60 billion dollars for 144 FGFAs is a good price?

Since we now know that there is only one kind of ToT possible, that screwdriver.

Even if russians, french or even the brits want to honestly give us ToT for their Engines, radars, GaN chips, IRSTs they can't.

Nobody can give us a formula on how to design lighter stronger landing gear to save weight.

Neither Rafale, Nor Al 31, M 88 or GE 414 engines to be made in desh can make us knowledgeable into making current generation engine of our own.

So we know we are strong in making Quadraple mode FBW in Tejas, we have done all the work from ground up to develop that.

Part of composites are maybe also made here. So I'll tick that too.

Radar as Singha ji said, it can be Rafale's or even Tejas Mk 2's until the one for AMCA get developed with customary delays.

Like we got boeing to setup a test facility for engines in C 17 package, maybe similar arrangement can be made for some other deal to have them as consultants or co-designers in super-light landing gears for AMCA and N-AMCA both.

Instead of 60 billions on FGFA, we can even after paying through nose will have a worldbeating AMCA.

[Singha]

and best thing is we dont need to match the raptor, just the J-35. so the bar is lower *but* cheen has a 10 year headstart on this as the J-35 is already flying, while AMCA flies only in CAD diagrams and concept studies.

[Philip]

The beauty of the JSF F-35 is that the aircraft has equal to or inferior dogfighting capability as current F-16s,so the LCA in a stealth avatar will be a superior bird in this aspect at least!

[NRao]

and best thing is we dont need to match the raptor, just the J-35. so the bar is lower *but* cheen has a 10 year headstart on this as the J-35 is already flying, while AMCA flies only in CAD diagrams and concept studies.

On "CAD diagrams and concept studies": they have gone as far with around a $100 million MoD + internal funds. But I like the fact that they get "breathers" - a rare luxury as we all know. What is holding them back from going any further? I suspect it is the LCA predicament.

If we are to believe the AWST article, then at least they have nailed down the diamond shaped wing design (that we saw in the CGI above). IMHO that is a great, big deal - granted it is still a paper plane. The next: the engine - perhaps the most challenging segment of the entire program. Outside of that they should have done a good deal of work on off-beat sub-systems, the star wars variety (this has got to get a few here riled).

On the AMCA standing on her own legs, it is the technologies that should dictate how isolated a development is and how much can it borrow from earlier efforts. It is my understanding - not an expert here and no chaiwala info - that internally the AMCA is very, very different, that the cockpit is way different. So what exactly will they borrow from the FGFA or the LCA efforts in unclear to me. Outside of composites. My recollection is that they have proposed a way different hardware architecture (distributed, with multiple nodes) - IF true, then what part of the LCA/FGFA will they borrow what from?

Dunno, I just do not see this as a world-over type of a plane. May be I am missing something ................. but I can only go by what is out there. What others have done, they have.

[NRao]

The beauty of the JSF F-35 is that the aircraft has equal to or inferior dogfighting capability as current F-16s,so the LCA in a stealth avatar will be a superior bird in this aspect at least!

Do not know what to say.

To beat snooping they first came out with the F-117 type of planes. Flat surfaces - facets - to scatter radar energy. Then came the B-2 bomber. Then came the F-22 and the F-35. In all this the main event that made it all happen is the computing power. That is the beauty - that they could figure out computationally - how to maintain very small RCS while going from flat surfaces to a curved ones.

Now, how all this could be defeated is another story, so do not go down that path.

I do not know, but does India have the computational power (both the mathematical algo + the computers to calc it all) to make the LCA vanish or close to it?

The F-16 certainly is not capable of vanishing to the extent the F-35 can.

[Philip]

With the current well known problems of the JSF and extensive maintenance regime reqd.,one would be able to afford 3-4 F-16s for the price of a single JSF and they would come in with a greater sortie capability too.This is where the Rand study of F-22s operating out of Guam,vs larger numbers of PLAAF Flankers ,is relevant.The study had said that the Raptors would run out of enough missiles to deal with the multiple Flanker threats. I posted recently a list of JSF test regime targets which need to be met before the definitive production version can be built.The last target date has again slipped by another year.The Israelis are supposed to be the first foreign users of the JSF,so we will have to wait and watch how the Israelis manage the induction of the aircraft before a prelim. assessment can be made of how capable it is.Here too massive cuts in the Israeli defence forces is on the cards,including that of the IAF,where older F-16s are to be retd.

PS:AWST in its June 10th issue has a feature on the Turkish effort to produce a 5th-gen fighter,preferring a single-engined bird,though the feature shows a twin-engined version too.Though Turkey has paid cash for a stake in the JSF,hoping to have the local bird fly in 10 years time, appears to be a Turkish gambit in case the JSF fails to deliver the goods,or becomes unaffordable.Having no other major aircraft projects on hand,like our LCA,the Turks feel that they can afford to begin work on an indigenous aircraft.The pics are interesting and should be compared with the AMCA model too.

Biggest obstacle that the Turks may face...."the engine for the single-engined version",finding a powerplant.The US,EU and Russian manufacturers are being approached.The Turks are also looking for a "foreign partner" for the same,with SoKo being named as one possibility.

PPS:Given the increasing global demand for a smaller more affordable single-engined 5th-gen bird,we could leverage the LCA programme and as said before,develop a Mk-3 version with stealth features.it might take some serious redesigning,plus a new engine,but could be a winner both for us and for exports,

[NRao]

As usual you ramble across all possible topics.

There is a technical angle to these planes and then there is a political-economic angle.

What each nation does, they do. What each air force they do. We can only learn from them, but we have to design and build for our own.

IMHO, gone are those days when the IAF could lean on a foreign entity to prop the IAF. Even Russia will become useless - as can be seen from the 40 odd modifications the IAF wants in the PAK-FA to make it more in tune with what the IAF wants. Imagine what would a plane be (NOT look) like if the IAF had to define her own.

If one is serious about such technologies, it is totally useless to have threads to bash the JSF/PAK-FA/PAK-DA/whatever. NONE of them will actually contribute to the IAF in any major way - to some extent perhaps. With the size and needs of India, India needs to go it alone. What does it matter what the US/Russians/Turks (where di they come from?) want or desire or decide on what path to choose? That is a weak attitude. Observing to learn is one thing, but to follow the world-over, is a weakness. You need to follow yourself.

[Christopher Sidor]

^^^
Yes one can buy 3-4 F-16s. And if one is interested even more Mig-21s. But the point is will these fighters be able to penetrate the air-defense forces of PLA/PLAAF/PLAN? And more importantly will it be able to do all that a F-35 can do? USAF and IAF do not follow the numbers game, where one tries to overwhelm the opponent with massive numbers.

[Philip]

Very true,of course we need to follow our lonely furrow,but ignoring developments worldwide and behaving like frogs in wells is a recipe for disaster! From where did we suddenly get the idea of developing our own stealth fighter,the AMCA pray may I ask? Did it suddenly descend into the heads of our aerospace boffins who have never delivered even a single fighter aircraft,that too even with 70%+ of imported components like engines,radars,weaponry,etc.? Or were they hoping to emulate what other nations had conceived of? Isn't the AMCA nothing more than an attempt to join the ranks of the advanced nations and their air forces,joining in the 5th-gen "rat race"? When we can't even deliver a basic trainer ,or a single aero-engine after decades since Independence,fact,we want billions to be spent on a paper plane even before the first avatar of the LCA has been inducted! Sure,protecting the gravy train for the next two decades is the top priority for our sole aircraft manufacturer.

There are some basic fundamentals,we first need to understand,to "cut our clothes according to our cloth",what we can afford,based upon our strategic planning ,% of the GDP,etc.Secondly,we must not bite off more than we can chew.While the first is a matter for pressure from the services to get at least 2.5-3% of the GDP earmarked for defence,as has been recommended, the tall talk from DPSUs which cannot deliver even when their plates are full with projects that are so badly delayed and still want more before they can digest the food in hand,smacks of greed and a dog-in-the-manger attitude.

We can go on debating the issue till the cows come home,but the stark fact remains that until the DPSUs deliver,and are held accountable for failure, we will be forced to import no matter what tall tales and promises they might make to the govt. of the day and to a sceptical armed forces. Only results matter.

[NRao]

Has anyone else proposed any plane with fly by light? May I ask?

So, yes, it did descend on our boffins (whatever that is).

High time you realize that India does have its own brains and the issue - if at all - is a means to verify what is possible.

"cut our clothes according to our cloth": YES. You seem to think stealth is some hardware modification to a plane, when in reality it is mathematical algorithms and associated computational power. Find out if Turkey or any other nation has how much of it first. THAT is what will tell you how much into stealth they are.

And, I could go on and on and on on this topic.

[NRao]

Isn't the AMCA nothing more than an attempt to join the ranks of the advanced nations and their air forces,joining in the 5th-gen "rat race"?

Nope.

The AMCA should go beyond joining anyone.

Which is what has escaped you.

AMCA >> FGFA (I have stated that for about 3-4 years now). Even way before what we see today in CAD diagrams. Heck even the FGFA is much different than the PAK-FA - something must have descended on the boffins geeks (BTW, what the heck is a boffin?)to propose such changes. (Does not make the FGFA any worse tho'.)

It is not an accident that the US is trying to see what the two nations can procure together. Neither is it an accident that Japan (out of all the nations) is cozying up to India.

Plenty of things have descended on these boffins geeks.

[astal]

Nrao,

Based on my recillection, Boffin is a Britsh word offen used to describe beaureacrats. A brit equivalent of babus.

[nachiket]

Nrao,

Based on my recillection, Boffin is a Britsh word offen used to describe beaureacrats. A brit equivalent of babus.

It's a British word for a scientist or an engineer.