AMCA News and Discussions

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 26 Apr 2013 00:21

indranilroy wrote: One professor (an endowed chair) suggested that IITs should have 2 placements for UGs. One right after the first year, where financial companies come and recruit the guys for their beautiful analytical brain. These students should be then taught things which would be useful in that field. Why waste 3 years teaching them engineering. The rest of the students who stay back would be taught engineering at the best possible fashion and would be able to seat in all companies company at the end of their third year from their respective domains. This way both the objectives were served.

I love that idea. At 17 when kids get into the IITs, their analytical mind is at its sharpest. Not so much their experience, exposure and maturity. No reason why companies shouldnt either (a) Train them for a couple of years or (b) Recruit them right away and provide on-the-job training.

Better still, have incubators talk to them about start-ups

I agree. Wasting public money on Engineering education doesnt make sense if the grads arent interested.

Sujata · Post by **Sujata** » 03 May 2013 07:33

It is very sad to see that the AMCA is not fully supported by the Indian government.I was hoping to see India use it's vast ,and talented pool of scientist ,and engineers create a world class 5th generation jet fighter.India has to try and be self sufficient in Jet fighter manufacturing ,and save the people of India billions of dollars that would also stay in the country.

The reason that usaf and russian airforce looks so great is not because they have better scientist and engineers ,but because they have much more funding for their jet fighter programs.

The IAF will be obsolete vs 5th gen. jet fighters from others countries.Please watch this video and see what would happen to an air force much like IAF.
The IAF needs game changers that will tip the hand of self defence in favor of India ,and deter countries that would even dare threaten you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnUwxDhE1kU

Also please look at ways to make jetfighters cheaper and faster with new technologies
Examples:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 140207.htm (new material)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 114157.htm ( new material)

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?se ... _id=258652 ( new manufacturing methods)

I think that the Japan is also working on their own 5th gen. fighter:
Northrop-Mitsubishi F3 (F-36A US) Affordable Interceptor
http://www.outie.net/forums/viewthread.php?tid=22747

It would be great to see the AMCA mass produce and even sold to European and friendly countries of India.

The Usa is already working on the 6th gen. fighter.
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... ghter.aspx

The AMCA could be a Big step into making a Stealth bomber for the IAF. I love the YF-23 ,and just make a longer version of that jet fighter ,and you could have a stealth bomber that could go past mach 3 ,and that would be something to see.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 May 2013 08:00

It is impractical for India to afford to have three ,nay four major aircraft projects (FGFA,MMRCA,LCA,AMCA-apart from upgrades) running simultaneously,when even advanced nations have rarely more than one (Eu/UK-Eurofighter,France-Gripen,Sweden-Gripen,US-JSF/F-22 production over).The huge costs and human resources are unavailable in India.Even the US is considering buying basic/jet trainers from abroad.They chose the Hawk for the USN.

The AMCA and FGFA are too close in comparison to run two programmes simultaneously-the major diff. only appears to be the size,and the LCA hasn't even been perfected.Both the GOI/MOD and the IAF are justified in shelving the project and waiting for the same team to deliver on the LCA.That happy event once behind us,we can start work on a 6th-gen AMCA with the experience of the LCA and FGFA to draw upon.For the moment,the classified and top-secret UCAV in the works can be given the thrust to the programme as is needed.

Let us also remember that the key to any aircraft project is the engine and we haven't even perfected the Kaveri after decades! What engine may one ask will power the AMCA? Another firang engine?

Sujata · Post by **Sujata** » 03 May 2013 08:49

Working on the AMCA is the future of the IAF,and the MMRCA ,and LCA are obsolete vs 5th generation jet fighters. The FGFA is not a joint program with the russians ,but just a 5th gen version of the Su-30MKI that sucks the blood,sweat,and tears of the Indian tax payer.The main reason for the MMRCA is for the technology transfer ,and of course build up numbers of the IAF,but the could of just bought more MKI's for that.The russians just sold SU-35 to china,and the chinese didn't just buy that because they needed numbers ,but to learn from the technology and incorporate that into the 5th gen. fighters.

Did you see the video were the usa F-22 takes out a bunch of Su-30 and Rafale like they were just frozen in the air.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnUwxDhE1kU

If India can mass produce the AMCA it will not have to spend billions of dollars for the Pakfa or any other russian or french jet fighter.What's wrong with being self sufficient.

The LCA is only around to keep HAL alive. How is it possible that it took 30 years to make.It one of the biggest jokes in aviation world history.Sweden has 100 times less people and money ,and they build their own jet fighter.It's only alive to pretend that they are building a jet fighter.Heck, the Indian government could have went to Northrop and ask for the design blue prints of F-5 ,and that would beat the LCA ,and they would have gotten it 15 years ago.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark

The AMCA is more important then the FGFA/Pakfa because it lets the IAF ,and Indian government be self sufficient and it saves the tax payer billions of dollars.The russians have never wanted the Indian people to be self sufficient because they would lose their Cash Cow which is India.
The HAL HF-24 Marut was a great jet fighter that the russians couldn't fit their engines it them.Wow really ,and you know why, because the russians more then likely didn't want those engines to fit because they have made Billions of dollars from the Indian government and people.They knew this back then how important it was to make the Indian People dependent of their jet fighters.

From the AMCA the Indian Air Force and future space force will be built.You have to do it by yourself you want to grow and develop you jet fighter and air plane industry.

I want India to build a stealth bomber ,and deter other countries from even thinking about bombing it.Look at what the B2 bomber , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B2_Bomber has done for the Usaf. It ended the cold war with russia . The russians have never built such a sophisticated bomber Ever. From the B2 Bomber , Northrop built YF-23 ,and that is still the best 5th gen. stealth design every made.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t/f-23.htm

How do you think russia came up with the Pakfa design, they basically copied off the YF-23 ,and F-22 ,and now are selling the copy of American design to India for billions.India could have copied the YF-23 themselves and said to russian you can keep your Pakf ,and we will keep are billions to ourselves. Like telling your drug dealer you can make you own drugs ,and you kick the habit of being a Slave to the monopoly of the jet fighter industry.

India has better scientist and engineers then russia or Sweden ,but still cant produce a 70/80 design LCA jetfighter,and some russians are paying big bucks for you India to not be able to.Russians would lose billions of dollars if you could.Go figure.

AMCA is the building block of the future of IAF stealth fighters.Imagine a Stealth bomber of this jet fighter that wasn't as big as B2 but faster.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwK2J3hJfmU

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 May 2013 08:55

Philip wrote:It is impractical for India to afford to have three ,nay four major aircraft projects (FGFA,MMRCA,LCA,AMCA-apart from upgrades) running simultaneously,when even advanced nations have rarely more than one (Eu/UK-Eurofighter,France-Gripen,Sweden-Gripen,US-JSF/F-22 production over).The huge costs and human resources are unavailable in India.Even the US is considering buying basic/jet trainers from abroad.They chose the Hawk for the USN.

1. I am not sure of your way of counting:
a. MMRCA (what are we designing exactly?),
b. FGFA (all components that will be part of the FGFA from Indian stables except for GTSU and APU will go onto AMCA).
c. Therefore according to me India is only developing 2 planes: LCA and AMCA.
2. Let me give you examples of lesser countries trying to build fighters:
a. China (6) - J-17/J-10/J-11/J-15/J-20/J-31
b. Korea (2) - T-50, KF-X
c. Japan (1) - ATD-X
d. Turkey (1) - TFX

Philip wrote: The AMCA and FGFA are too close in comparison to run two programmes simultaneously-the major diff. only appears to be the size,and the LCA hasn't even been perfected.

Wait, what is the difference in Mig-35 and Su-35/F-16 and F-15/J-20 and J-31?

Philip wrote: Both the GOI/MOD and the IAF are justified in shelving the project and waiting for the same team to deliver on the LCA.That happy event once behind us,we can start work on a 6th-gen AMCA with the experience of the LCA and FGFA to draw upon.For the moment,the classified and top-secret UCAV in the works can be given the thrust to the programme as is needed.

For the nth time! LCA Mk2 design is completed, we are hardly doing any FGFA design stuff exclusive to that plane. What should our designers do in the meantime? The designing of UCAV and a fighter plane are poles apart. They can't draw on each other on anything but RAM coatings and composite skins.

Philip wrote: Let us also remember that the key to any aircraft project is the engine and we haven't even perfected the Kaveri after decades! What engine may one ask will power the AMCA? Another firang engine?

The people who design engines and those who design planes are not the same. How does stopping the design of planes accelerate the fabrication of engines. Anyways, desi planes with firang engines are better than complete firang planes.

P.S. Edited for typos.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 03 May 2013 09:32

Sujata wrote:Working on the AMCA is the future of the IAF,and the MMRCA ,and LCA are obsolete vs 5th generation jet fighters. The FGFA is not a joint program with the russians ,but just a 5th gen version of the Su-30MKI that sucks the blood,sweat,and tears of the Indian tax payer.The main reason for the MMRCA is for the technology transfer ,and of course build up numbers of the IAF,but the could of just bought more MKI's for that.The russians just sold SU-35 to china,and the chinese didn't just buy that because they needed numbers ,but to learn from the technology and incorporate that into the 5th gen. fighters.

Did you see the video were the usa F-22 takes out a bunch of Su-30 and Rafale like they were just frozen in the air.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnUwxDhE1kU

If India can mass produce the AMCA it will not have to spend billions of dollars for the Pakfa or any other russian or french jet fighter.What's wrong with being self sufficient.

The LCA is only around to keep HAL alive. How is it possible that it took 30 years to make.It one of the biggest jokes in aviation world history.Sweden has 100 times less people and money ,and they build their own jet fighter.It's only alive to pretend that they are building a jet fighter.Heck, the Indian government could have went to Northrop and ask for the design blue prints of F-5 ,and that would beat the LCA ,and they would have gotten it 15 years ago.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark

The AMCA is more important then the FGFA/Pakfa because it lets the IAF ,and Indian government be self sufficient and it saves the tax payer billions of dollars.The russians have never wanted the Indian people to be self sufficient because they would lose their Cash Cow which is India.
The HAL HF-24 Marut was a great jet fighter that the russians couldn't fit their engines it them.Wow really ,and you know why, because the russians more then likely didn't want those engines to fit because they have made Billions of dollars from the Indian government and people.They knew this back then how important it was to make the Indian People dependent of their jet fighters.

From the AMCA the Indian Air Force and future space force will be built.You have to do it by yourself you want to grow and develop you jet fighter and air plane industry.

I want India to build a stealth bomber ,and deter other countries from even thinking about bombing it.Look at what the B2 bomber , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B2_Bomber has done for the Usaf. It ended the cold war with russia . The russians have never built such a sophisticated bomber Ever. From the B2 Bomber , Northrop built YF-23 ,and that is still the best 5th gen. stealth design every made.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t/f-23.htm

How do you think russia came up with the Pakfa design, they basically copied off the YF-23 ,and F-22 ,and now are selling the copy of American design to India for billions.India could have copied the YF-23 themselves and said to russian you can keep your Pakf ,and we will keep are billions to ourselves. Like telling your drug dealer you can make you own drugs ,and you kick the habit of being a Slave to the monopoly of the jet fighter industry.

India has better scientist and engineers then russia or Sweden ,but still cant produce a 70/80 design LCA jetfighter,and some russians are paying big bucks for you India to not be able to.Russians would lose billions of dollars if you could.Go figure.

AMCA is the building block of the future of IAF stealth fighters.Imagine a Stealth bomber of this jet fighter that wasn't as big as B2 but faster.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwK2J3hJfmU

Edit: Good use of post number 420

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 03 May 2013 12:50

India Postpones AMCA Program
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... et-Program

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 May 2013 13:22

^^^ So cancellation of AMCA is a precursor to purchase additional Rafale , likely we will see Rafale numbers will be bumped to 200-250 .....in line with MKI numbers getting bumped up.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 May 2013 13:41

Indi,with respect,there is right now an acute shortage of aero-engineers,etc.If you recollect,not too long ago,of all teams,the IJT team was also tasked with the FGFA programme as there weren't enough scientists to go around! This is why the whole gang is being asked to concentrate efforts and fast track the LCA MK1,then after that the MK2,which has yet to fly,apart from those working on the FGFA project with Russia.Two simultaneous 5th-gen programmes right now is absurd.We need to focus on one and make it a success-the FGFA.We don't have the talent and the moolah too.Perfecting the LCA MK-2 ,establishing full production lines,MRO ,etc.,will take us to 2020 at least.Once the LCA and FGFA projects are on stream,or on the road to success,we can move the design teams to the AMCA .

In any case,even the 4++ gen. Rafale production will not even be halfway complete by 2020-and the options are there for a further 80.Our order of battle by 2025 will consist mainly of SU-30 variants,Rafales,LCAs,and upgraded M-2000s,MIG-29s and Jaguars.How the shortages in numbers are also going to be met is anyone's guess as of now.As for engines,i is essential that we set up a new facility for aero-engine R&D for all types both for aircraft and helos.There is a massive requirement for a variety of aero-engines and we are woeful in following up on this vital component,always at the mercy of a friang manufacturer.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 03 May 2013 14:27

Philip, you're wrong!! The ADA design team (mostly from aero-structures, airframe design aka CFD side, Flight Control Law etc) that are curerntly working on AMCA were derived from the the LCA ADA team which doesn't have much to do nowadays - no, they have no role in FGFA and not even in MK2. And there's not much aero-dynamic and structural work involved in MK2 anyway, and even if it does, it will involve a fraction of the MK1 design team.

IJT and FGFA has no bearing with ADA (it's HALs domain), so moot.

And setting up production line etc doesn't involve the core competencies of the ADA design team mentioned above - it most probably (not sure 100%) would involve systems etc and most probably some from the structures side as well.

So even if there's any "gang" required to fast-track LCA, it would be required to be drawn from HAL and not ADA (for some consultative support etc ADA interface is required though) - after all, if there's a problem with Autoclave (however it has since been denied by HAL) issue, ADA can hardly help.

IOW resources required to "concentrate" on various programme that you've mentioned above are not the same resources that are required to work on AMCA.

And regarding success or failure of FGFA is concerned, I'd go on a limb to state that we have limited exposure on it's both success or failure - in fact, we can wrongly increase the risk-impact of FGFA programme failure on us (which of course will be a music to the Russians, as it increases our dependency on them), by not pursuing a parallel 5th Gen programme like AMCA.

And actually from a counter argument pov, from a pure risk mitigating side we need to go full-steam ahead with AMCA - after all why should we forget the Cryogenic fiasco wrt Russia's ability to maintain friendship etc in terms of high-tech defence equipment supply etc.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 03 May 2013 14:33

Austin wrote:^^^ So cancellation of AMCA is a precursor to purchase additional Rafale , likely we will see Rafale numbers will be bumped to 200-250 .....in line with MKI numbers getting bumped up.

Did someone come and tell u these numbers, if not where did you pull this out of? Do you have anything to back up these numbers with?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 May 2013 14:47

Yes MMRCA has the option of 126 + 64 as option total to ~ 200 aircraft if the latter is exercised link

Even MKI initial deal for lic production was less then the 280+ now we plan to make/procure.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 03 May 2013 17:45

Austin wrote:^^^ So cancellation of AMCA is a precursor to purchase additional Rafale , likely we will see Rafale numbers will be bumped to 200-250 .....in line with MKI numbers getting bumped up.

Logically, any cancellation / hold for IAFs AMCA would result into higher orders of FGFA, since the main point is AMCA being a stealth fighter. Similarly, any further delay of LCA MK2 will result into higher orders of Rafale.

maitya wrote:that are curerntly working on AMCA were derived from the the LCA ADA team which doesn't have much to do nowadays - no, they have no role in FGFA and not even in MK2. And there's not much aero-dynamic and structural work involved in MK2 anyway, and even if it does, it will involve a fraction of the MK1 design team.

How did you come to that conclusion? The airframe will be extended, the fuselage will be a new one, the air intakes will have changes, IRST is possible, all the planned weight additions that needs to be evaluated wrt to the structure and weight balance, not to mention the changes needed for N-LCA MK2. There is more than enough to do with LCA MK2 itself, "IF" we don't want to face further delays for the induction into IAF, but ADA seems to have other priorities now, which is the real problem!

agupta wrote: In general: For years, BRFites have moaned lack of proper PM etc., and its hilarious now to hear complaints when some fundamental principles ARE being applied - focusing on critical stuff, not allocating money that has been proven will remain unspent. Hilarious !!!

I think that's a general problem on Indian forums, we simply blame government and politicians for anything, but never take the scientist accountable for the mistakes or failures they made. If a government makes major mistakes, you can elect another one after 5 years to take them accountable. The LCA project on the other side is going on for decades, was any scientist of the project, ever taken accountable yet? Overweight, drag, Kaveri failure, MMR(?), overdeveloped gears of N-LCA, completely underestimating the efforts needed in most parts of the projects? Of course not, instead we find excuses for them.
MoD and IAF has now made not only some stronger statements, but finally takes some real steps to hold our industry accountable for delivering what they promised and that is the right way to go. The new policy defence procurement policies will put even more pressure on ADA, DRDO and HAL (partially), since several Indian private companies will form JVs and co-developments now with foreign counterparts, to offer our forces capable arms and techs, with less delays and the required quality.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 May 2013 18:16

Have we taken the risks required in LCA project. Can we??? Doing a complex system for the first time and no accidents? No deaths? Nothing going wrong? May be we are afraid to push the envolope. We ar fearful of the hostile paid media and pro import lobby killing our efforts even if there is on accident? In Bussiness we expect some units to fail. In making highly complext systems with no prior experiance it would be natural that somethings may do wrong. Yet almost nothing gone wrong either with LCA testing or Kaveri?

Is this carefulness and fear to take any risks with the systems, design (with the life of test pilots in the end0 is a reason for the delays?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 May 2013 21:24

Philip sahab, Maitya sahab and AGupta sahab,

Thank you for your thoughts.

If there is a requirement for more skilled men, that requirement will always be there. India should invest in enlarging this pool of men (China is wise to this). In that respect, dropping projects due to lack of men is counterproductive. The solution is to hire and train more men, rather than drop projects. If these projects are not there, men will never get hired and knowledge will never get passed on.

Case in point: MDL and building of Scorpenes with a 15 year gap.

P.S. We won't get aircraft designers from any educational institutions. They will only be born inside design and production houses.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 03 May 2013 23:09

Rs 100 corer were sanctioned by the govt for MCA (NGFA) at the end of 2010. A joint team of IAF and DRDO were to use the funds to come up with specifications and initial configuration in 18 months. 30 months have passed but we have not heard a peep from this committee. PS Subramaniam also claimed that GoI will sanction $2billion in next 18 months to build 2 TDs and 7 prototypes.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 May 2013 23:19

Katare wrote:Rs 100 corer were sanctioned by the govt for MCA (NGFA) at the end of 2010. A joint team of IAF and DRDO were to use the funds to come up with specifications and initial configuration in 18 months. 30 months have passed but we have not heard a peep from this committee. PS Subramaniam also claimed that GoI will sanction $2billion in next 18 months to build 2 TDs and 7 prototypes.

Were we supposed to hear anything specific? Aren't we seeing the models?

Suresh_Shyam · Post by **Suresh_Shyam** » 04 May 2013 00:12

Even ADA Start AMCA program,they going to make mistakes.
1.Again the DRDO mis-calculate Engine Speci, what they did in LCA Program. 90Kn will not good enough for the AMCA Aircraft and going to be obsolete engine near future. Outcome weight of AMCA aircraft will be more than as expected. Already GE developing 120 Class Engine.Atlast IAF will select GE Engine for AMCA.

2. Normally serpentine shaped air-intakes need 18M Long for induct into Aircraft(Ex:F-22,J-20). but AMCA would be less than 15M and it's difficult to hide the Engine blade from Enemy radar.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 04 May 2013 00:17

Should have heard about team completing predesign phase by now. GoI should have cleared the $2b funding by now too. we heard of $296m predesign contract when it was signed and after it was completed for FGFA/T-50.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 04 May 2013 00:26

dinesha wrote:India Postpones AMCA Program
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... et-Program

DRDO spokesman Ravi Gupta said the AMCA project is still at a feasibility stage and is awaiting government approval .

He denied that the project is being abandoned and did not comment when asked if it was postponed.

That's all there is to the news about "AMCA being supposedly postponed" and we have posters already terming it "cancelled"

Scientists in DRDO already work upon multiple projects at a time so what is this talk about extra resources being allocated going on ??? How come postponing or cancelling the AMCA project will help Indian aeronautical industry ???

Day after day the standard here is tanking down.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 May 2013 01:50

^^^ Words of wisdom. Points taken. Thank you.

vic · Post by **vic** » 04 May 2013 10:36

We are working on three projects, all of which will be complimentary. AMCA, Stealth LCA MRk-3, and UCAV-AURA.

But simultaneously we should encourage CAT, HTT-40 and LCA Mark-2.

Will · Post by **Will** » 04 May 2013 12:54

vic wrote:We are working on three projects, all of which will be complimentary. AMCA, Stealth LCA MRk-3, and UCAV-AURA.

But simultaneously we should encourage CAT, HTT-40 and LCA Mark-2.

And when did we start working on a Stealth LCA Mrk 3???????????????????????

archan · Post by **archan** » 04 May 2013 16:06

Suresh_Shyam wrote:Even ADA Start AMCA program,they going to make mistakes.
1.Again the DRDO mis-calculate Engine Speci, what they did in LCA Program. 90Kn will not good enough for the AMCA Aircraft and going to be obsolete engine near future. Outcome weight of AMCA aircraft will be more than as expected. Already GE developing 120 Class Engine.Atlast IAF will select GE Engine for AMCA.
2. Normally serpentine shaped air-intakes need 18M Long for induct into Aircraft(Ex:F-22,J-20). but AMCA would be less than 15M and it's difficult to hide the Engine blade from Enemy radar.

I am sure you are an expert on the topic and know much more than those working for DRDO. It is a shame that India could not use your expertise and services. What a loss! however, kindly go easy on the smileys and maintain some maturity in your posts.

vic · Post by **vic** » 04 May 2013 20:20

I think the recent tender for 75/110kn engine indicates where AMCA is headed. Perhaps this engine will have Kaveri core with new LP and higher bypass ratio??

Sujata · Post by **Sujata** » 05 May 2013 19:36

I think that the Indian government should have just bought a major share of Saab Group ,and moved the manufacturing capabilities over to India. Instead of just buying the product you can now just build them yourselves.Transfer that technology to building up more LCA's and AMCA.

The AMCA will be the cornerstone of building stealth bombers for India.How much could you save with doing both programs ,and not having to rely on other countries for they stealth technologies when you can build it yourself? Also with out getting shafted with the high costs of buying and maintaining those expensive fighters.

The LCA and Rafael are obsolete vs stealth fighters,and will get blasted from the sky. A very interesting comment I read about why it was important for china to buy Su-35. It wasn't because they need the numbers, but because they have to train their pilots to fly such a sophisticated aircraft. Post are at the bottom. http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2 ... tary-deal/
"Kenneth, the most significant thing about this is it provides 24 aircraft of very modern type that can be used to build the most advanced pilot skills in a developing air force. Training the “PhD” level aviators, who will then train the following generation of fliers.

People get too caught up in the hardware specifications. in various (laugh) physical measurements, and nationalism. Operating a sophisticated aircraft at a high skill level with modern weapons is what is significant. These aircraft will provide a major step up in the ability to learn those skills and pass them on to others in their force.

More significant than ‘measurements’ or flag waving is the tiny details of what the electronics are sensing, emitting and processing. That is where the secrets are, and you will notice it is almost never discussed.

The comment on the engine technology is interesting also."

While India is waiting for the Pakfa, china will have already gotten their own pilots ready for the learning curve of flying a stealth fighter. Why would russia give them such an advantage over India. Shouldn't Indian pilots being testing the Pakfa themselves ,and get ready to pass that knowledge down to younger pilots.

What happens if russia sells china a Pakfa ,and then India Aif Force will be severely compromised? Why take that chance.For lots money,and pressure from china to russia for that technology could be possible.

Building the AMCA ,and a Stealth bomber of an elongated version will ensure India national security.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 May 2013 21:40

^^well building AMCA without defining the mission profiles and capabilities will not ensure India's national security. It will only help in establishing to counter a threat profile. Nothing is a guarantee to "ensure" national security, and we can go to sleep..

It is a 24x7 job to upkeep the nation, from not just technological capabilities, but capabilities to develop to counter many threats country is facing from both external and internal sources. We have enough capabilities to take up any immediate threats coming from external sources, but nothing actually exists for all internal threats.

We are vulnerable within than from external sources.. the MUTUs, MPTPs, MCTCs along with gullible corrupted setup, is the #1 vulnerability in our national security setup.

Staging technological capabilities is vital for long term survival.. LCA Mk3 with near AMCA profile the way to to go.. and AMCA can begin later on, on the same mode as A5->Surya will happen. A5 happened because of A4, A3++... etc.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 May 2013 09:09

Sujata wrote:I think that the Indian government should have just bought a major share of Saab Group ,and moved the manufacturing capabilities over to India. Instead of just buying the product you can now just build them yourselves.Transfer that technology to building up more LCA's and AMCA.

Though, I am with you that India should invest in the AMCA, I am not with you on your above statement.

The last week or so, I have been reading a few articles as to why India is not where it could have been by now. Is it that only money was missing? And one solid thing which I read consistently is that India has short-sightedly invested mostly in trying to get the technology. India has never invested enough in creating and nurturing people who can create the technology.

Your suggestion is right down that alley of investing in trying to get the technology.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 May 2013 09:15

wisely said indranil... none will share technology. all these business deals are fake.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 07 May 2013 04:09

Will wrote:
vic wrote:We are working on three projects, all of which will be complimentary. AMCA, Stealth LCA MRk-3, and UCAV-AURA.

But simultaneously we should encourage CAT, HTT-40 and LCA Mark-2.
And when did we start working on a Stealth LCA Mrk 3???????????????????????

Never, it's just another dream by ADA and DRDO officials, to create some news, the fact to is, that LCA can never be a stealth fighter, if it can't carry weapons and fuel internally. What they might have in mind and what they use to confuse the public, are some improved shapings of the airframe, but that's it. We currently see pretty well how difficult it is to find any internal space for the MK2 upgrades, let alone any dream of internal weapon bays. Even the addition of a weapon pod, like the Silent Hornet has is doubtful, because of the size limitations of the centerline station...
Just like MoD said now, they should get things done and not only dream around!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 May 2013 10:51

Of current programmes,two are vital;first, the LCA MK1 and MK2,so that we possess our own indigenous aircraft with the entire trail of components,spares and support infrastructure for the IAF.But even here,the initial avatar is flying with a firang engine,radar,weapon systems,etc. So one can see huge effort needs to be made.

Second is the FGFA which is supposed to secure our future stealth requirements,our cutting edge qulaitiative lead over the PRC and Pak. Though we joined the programme rather late,the amount of money we are investing gives us a lot of supposed tech from the programme, and now that the Indian two-seat version has been dropped,the aircraft will enter service faster than earlier anticipated and at lesser cost .This programme is supposed to introduce a new engine,radars,EW sensors,weaponry,etc., some of which will feature on the Super-Sukhoi 30s.

Therefore,the max effort should be given to these two programmes.The IAF chief has said that he doesn't want the HTT-40 (the Pilatus is a better bet) and that the IJT should be fast tracked.In fact the Pilatus is so good that one version can directly lead a rookie onto larger jets,AJTs/type trainers,without the need for an IJT.

AKA says today that the time needed to finalise the MMRCA deal cannot have a deadline! With his inglororious record of having the least ever defence decision-making ever,will we all be dead and buried before he finalises the MMRCA deal? I can see the Sukhoi and MIG bureaus...and HAL (Jags) licking their chops!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 May 2013 17:59

The FGFA may acquire the future stealth techs, but it has got to be the AMCA that sustains it. I just hope India does not squander away what has been learnt from the LCA experience and actually adds to that. the FGFA cannot be relied on to sustain anything - as proved in moving from a dual seater to a single seater. Even testing - a huge component of the learning process - has been curtailed.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 07 May 2013 18:57

All this talk about why we need the AMCA and PAK-FA to counter a threat (s) from China (J20-30-50-10000) reminds me of why the Russkies built the formidable F25. It was in response to a 'high alt- high speed' bomber being created by the USA. IIRC it was the Rockwell B1 and Valkyrie that they were counteracting.

This kind of my mijjile bigger than your mijjile doesnt work in the real world. Ultimately you must do what 'you' feel can or may be a threat to you 'in the future' both near and far. But if you start building bigger, larger stronger just because someone else has bigger larger stronger you will ultimately have an inferior product when they move on to the next generation product.
"You lose because you want to overcome me, I win because I want to overcome myself".

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 30 May 2013 15:42

Passive stealth technologies by ADE.

DRDO creates radar absorbers & FSS Radomes for stealth aircraft's

http://frontierindia.net/drdo-creates-r ... -aircrafts

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jun 2013 23:42

Indian ‘Home-Grown’ AMCA, An Alternative To FGFA

Despite being involved in the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) joint program with Russia, India is developing a next-generation fighter of its own–the advanced multirole combat aircraft (AMCA).

The Indian defense ministry’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) showed a large-scale model of the AMCA at Aero India 2013 in February, in Bengaluru. The aerodynamic shape has been considerably refined in comparison to an earlier model exhibited at Aero India 2011, and even more so when compared to a model for wind-tunnel testing shown at Aero India 2009, at which time it was “MCA” without being “Advanced.” This provides evidence that AMCA is being developed in parallel with FGFA. DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Establishment is leading the AMCA program.

Addressing the next-generation fighter issue, Air Marshall Norman Anil Kumar Browne, the Indian air force chief of staff, declined to compare the AMCA and FGFA, but insisted that “homegrown” projects shall be continued, especially in the area of mission equipment and fighter engines, since “nobody will give us these technologies.”

Browne also spoke in support of the light combat aircraft “Tejas,” despite the continuing slow progress of this indigenous fighter project, which has been delayed by some 20 years. He said the Tejas would attain initial operational clearance (IOC) at the end of this year and would be through final operational clearance in 2015, with the rider that the air force does not expect this airplane to fully meet specification until the advent of the Tejas Mk.2, with its entry-into-service planned for 2024.

The AMCA is likely to be powered by the Kaveri motor, also developed in-country. This engine had been conceived for the Tejas, but ran slower than expected and was eventually “detached” from the airframe effort. Instead, experimental and series production Tejas aircraft received the General Electric F404 turbine engine and later will get the more advanced F414.

The very fact that India continues with the AMCA is an indication that New Delhi has some concerns about the FGFA. Browne hinted that because of India’s late decision to join the Russian project, the FGFA is difficult to arrange as a 50/50 program, as the baseline airframe is too advanced for that. There are also some other fears, such as maturity of the Russian technology in certain spheres. In particular, the prototypes constructed so far feature extensive use of metal in their airframes, reflecting the gaps and shortcomings in the modern composite technology available to Sukhoi. At the same time, the homegrown Tejas has a 43-percent share of composites in its airframe.

Official information on the AMCA at Aero India 2013 was limited to a one-page leaflet with three views and key marketing terms, such as net-centric warfare, vehicle management (including weapons), data fusion, decision aids, integrated modular avionics, internal carriage of weapons, signature control with sharpening for low observability, AESA radar, IR search-and-track, supersonic persistence, high-speed weapon release and thrust vectoring. It was stated that the aircraft would be able to “swing roles” variously between long/short-range and air-to-air/ground strike.

According to press reports, scientist Dr. A.K. Ghosh heads the AMCA development effort. Some observers have suggested that, unlike the FGFA, the AMCA’s primary role will be ground attack, and so it will be a direct replacement to the MiG-27M and the Jaguar. Also, there are reports about a “revolutionary” pilot station employing a panoramic active-matrix display (or displays) with touch-screen interface and voice commands, and a helmet-mounted sight replacing, rather than supplementing, a head-up display.

The AMCA is likely to be an “electronically” actuated airplane rather than hydraulically operated. Instead of the digital flight-control computer, as used on the Tejas, the AMCA is to have a distributed processing system employing fast processors and smart subsystems that can pass over and combine the processing power available in them. This requires the employment of the IEEE-1394B-STD rather than MIL-STD-1553B databus standard. The new airplane is also planned to have a “central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic-fiber channel by means of a multiport connectivity switching modules.” Also mentioned are fly-by-light, electro-optic architecture with fiberoptic links for signal and data communications.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jun 2013 00:16

didn't get it.. electronically, on a distributed optic bus, they could exchange data and command, and know states for next op /event or feedback loop. but, replace hydraulically/pneumatic devices or are they electric actuators electronically controlled?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 14 Jun 2013 02:46

nikhil_p wrote:All this talk about why we need the AMCA and PAK-FA to counter a threat (s) from China (J20-30-50-10000) reminds me of why the Russkies built the formidable F25. It was in response to a 'high alt- high speed' bomber being created by the USA. IIRC it was the Rockwell B1 and Valkyrie that they were counteracting.

What was/is the "F25" or do you mean the MiG 25 Foxbat?

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 15 Jun 2013 01:26

He said the Tejas would attain initial operational clearance (IOC) at the end of this year and would be through final operational clearance in 2015, with the rider that the air force does not expect this airplane to fully meet specification until the advent of the Tejas Mk.2, with its entry-into-service planned for 2024.

2024 for the Tejas Mk 2. to enter service ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Jun 2013 10:16

^^^

Just to create FUD. Nothing more. IMO by the latest it ought have the FOC by 2018. The ADA is thinking that it will have FOC by 2016. Me thinks that by using the experience gained with the Mk1 and the Mk2 being an iterative development of the Mk1. The testing time will cut short.

So that the aircraft even if delayed massively it ought to be in sq service by 2018.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jun 2013 09:30

test program mistakes made in mk1 could be eliminated though. sometimes the ordering of things are sub optimal or more money can permit parallel testing now that risk factors are known. early tests of known problematic areas from mk1 could be done like the fuel pump leakage, electromagnetic dome issue, wake penetration, allah hu akbar angle of attack tests