AMCA News and Discussions

Sagar G
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 23 Dec 2013 21:33

NRao wrote:SG,

That is the current Kaveri - as is. It will make the LCA fly, but not "power" it.


I know that.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 23 Dec 2013 21:54

NRao wrote:True. Thx.

Do you recall when the article was published at least? TIA.


FORCE does not maintain much of the archive online but I will search when I get time and post it here if it exist.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 25 Dec 2013 06:40

From reports seen from IAF , the MOD is likely to approve AMCA program once Tejas Mk2 gets into production so likely time date for FSED would be around 2018 time frame , it takes around 12-15 years to put an aircraft into production after elaborate flight test program.


Did a little digging around, and:
* There are no official stand from the IAF, nor the MoD. There are a few from both that have suggested that the AMCA be restarted after the LCA MK2 attains FOC
* There are plenty of articles where IAF and Lab people have come out to support the AMCA. Which tells me that there are those within both establishments that would like to see it being funded ASAP and that it is a very, very critical aspect of teh future
* There is nothing to indicate (from my research) that the MoD is even close to considering this option, leave alone implementing it. But, ........
* Even if implemented the group suggesting the postponement expect the production to be around in 10 years - 2028ish. Which is not too far from 2025 if it were funded right now
* The AMCA team had already, by 2010, spent $300-400 million. In 2010 the team had requested $2 billion, a sum they were confident of getting then
* I very much doubt that the AMCA will take more than 10 years. In fact, my feel is that the more time that passes the more robust will be that plane
* I am also inclined to believe that the decision taken on the FGFA will impact the AMCA. Furthermore my gut feel is that the FGFA, in terms of quantities, should slide even further. I think they may come down to some 80 or so

Let us see.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srin » 25 Dec 2013 08:58

I beg to differ ...

AMCA will be ours, our design based on experience gained from everywhere. We don't have the skills to do a stealth aircraft yet. Our first LCA has just got IOC, so while progress will be rapid, will not be rapid enough to have an operational stealth aircraft in 10 years. And if we have to have our own engines and the like, there is a lot of time-risk in the project.

FGFA, which is presume will be an MKI'ized PAK FA, has lesser risk comparatively. That should be the insurance in case AMCA gets into time trouble. Our armed forces would prefer to have a platform they can use in the battle if such a conflict happens in early 2020's.

It is a *good* thing to decouple AMCA from FGFA. We need to build our own and we also need to have ready platforms to fight and we need both.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Dec 2013 09:16

The official stand has already exists. AMCA is not conditional to MK2. It is resourcing problem. AMCA technologies is been full fledgedly developed by ADA etc. It has multiple design options too. It might take another 2 years for AMCA to be frozen by the service and developer.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 25 Dec 2013 09:42

I really don't know how much design/feasibility studies had been done for AMCA but expecting that it will be ready in 10 years is disaster recipe. Any decent plane take two decades before it goes into series production. They could make first PV flight in 10 years.


Noob disclaimer and all that. However, re the above, there's a chance series production time cycles will compress bigtime owing to 3d printing tech. Reports already abound of an entire aircraft wing being printed out basically.

http://www.engineering.com/Videos/Thisw ... -Wing.aspx

So yes, the issues with dies, casts molds etc is resolved to great extents. Anyways, following LCA trailblaze, composites will likely be the material of choice, fits very well with additive manufacturing... Design and spec changes can be incorporated whenever with minimal production fuss... I mean, its a whole new world out there coming alive as we speak. Or so I hope.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 25 Dec 2013 09:49

I beg to differ ...


I perfectly understand anyone who would disagree with me, so need for any formalities.

However, the AMCA (MCA) was first formulated around 1997!!! Recall ............. without vertical fins?

The next data point: Russia offers India to join the PAK-FA effort in 2001. Indian "joined" it in 2011 (or so?).

Let me get the bad news out of the way: The only feature that seems to be "missing" (or not talked about in the recent past) is thrust vectoring.

This from wiki (saves me plenty of time):

In November, 2010, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) sought $2-billion (approximately INR 9,060 crore) of funding for the development of the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA).[8] PS Subramanyam subsequently stated, “We have just started working on this fifth-generation aircraft, for which we had already received sanctions to the tune of Rs 100 crore. The way the government is cooperating, I am able to say that we will receive the funding ($2 billion) in the next 18 months.”[8] Funding will initially be utilized to develop two technology demonstrators and seven prototypes. The first flight test was expected to take place by 2017.[8] Currently, the configuration finalization is planned for 2018, with the first flight planned for 2020


So, IF they had got the funding in 18 months, that would have put them in mid 2012. Then work yourself to 2020. So, if they now expect funds in say 2018, then the final product (based on this timeline) should be 2026ish.

There are reports that they have done a lot more research than they have let us know - in fact one "expert analyst" has even complained as to how come they have been able to do any research on this plane. (black funds - like China?)

By August 2011, the aircraft was in preliminary design phase. As of July 2012, with aerodynamic design optimisation near complete, the AMCA's broad specifications are final. The aircraft will have a weight of 16-18 tonnes with 2-tonnes of internal weapons and four-tonnes of internal fuel with a combat ceiling of 15-km, max speed of 1.8-Mach at 11-km.[10] The final design is expected to be shown to the air force by 2012, after which full scale development on the aircraft may start.[11] In February 2013, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) unveiled a 1:8 scale model at Aero India 2013.[4]


In the Paris Air Show 2013, ADA revealed that the the AMCA will have "net-centric warfare, vehicle management (including weapons), data fusion, decision aids, integrated modular avionics, internal carriage of weapons, signature control with sharpening for low observability, AESA radar, IR search-and-track, supersonic persistence, high-speed weapon release and thrust vectoring." The aircraft is designed to be multi-role, with the ability to undertake both long and short-range missions, and conduct both air-to-air and strike missions. Unlike the HAL Tejas which has a digital flight-control computer and hydraulic controllers, the AMCA is likely to have a distributed processing system employing fast processors and smart subsystems and will be an electronically controlled via a "central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic-fiber channel by means of a multi-port connectivity switching module". This would require using the IEEE-1394B-STD rather than MIL-STD-1553B databus standard.[18]


And, I was not aware of this:

A naval version is confirmed, as the Indian Navy also contributed to funding.


A naval variant would be truly exciting.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srin » 25 Dec 2013 10:01

NRao wrote:But, yes, certainly make up your own mind, but, please conduct some research.


That last part was uncalled for. If you conduct your own research a bit more, you'd have seen that AMCA has been de-focussed to concentrate on LCA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 25 Dec 2013 10:09

For the AMCA TDs, a lot of the LCA technologies (some as is and some with modifications) could be incorporated to get them flying by 2018-2020 timeframe. This is unlike the LCA project where everything had to be built from ground up! The PVs will take more time given a whole sets of new technologies planned for it but even here the new technologies could be added incrementally through PVs 1 to 7.

Here are technologies that will transfer relatively "easily" to the AMCA TDs:
  • R&D Infrastructure - more than 60 test rigs (iron bird,etc) and various facilities (wind tunnel, lightening, stress tests etc); design software
  • R&D Practice - experienced management, engineers and scientist along with best practices
  • Flight Testing & Certification - various telemetry equipment, experienced test team and practices and certification process
  • Components - Composites, Avionics (computers, controls, MMR), EW suite
  • FBW - if written well, software architecture and code reuse and where possible extension

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 25 Dec 2013 10:32

srin wrote:
NRao wrote:But, yes, certainly make up your own mind, but, please conduct some research.


That last part was uncalled for. If you conduct your own research a bit more, you'd have seen that AMCA has been de-focussed to concentrate on LCA.


(Which is why I deleted it before you responded. My apologies.)

However,

Our first LCA has just got IOC, so while progress will be rapid, will not be rapid enough to have an operational stealth aircraft in 10 years.


They are expecting it to be done in 8!! Mine was "less than 10". vs. some others who expect it to be up to 15.

The de-focusing has nothing to do with this timeline. IF they are right, then they will still get it done in 8 years - first flight.

Anyways .....................

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 25 Dec 2013 10:38

srin wrote:
NRao wrote:But, yes, certainly make up your own mind, but, please conduct some research.


That last part was uncalled for. If you conduct your own research a bit more, you'd have seen that AMCA has been de-focussed to concentrate on LCA.


That's for public consumption only, AMCA hasn't been put on a back burner, work is ongoing.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Christopher Sidor » 25 Dec 2013 11:58

Karan M wrote:long term, we have to develop our own internal MIC, and that will hopefully happen once MMS is sent off next year

a nationalist govt like the NDA is 10x preferable to the bunch of folks running the game now

apart from st antony, rest less said the better.

Less said about the previous NDA regime the better, they were a disaster, consider their accomplishments
  • The failure to cross LOC/IB during Kargil
  • Their stationing of our Army in the sweltering heat of Indian summer during operation Parakam.
  • Going to play homage where the resolution to divide India was passed in Pakistan.
  • The PM of NDA went to PRC and said out aloud that Tibet is a part of PRC. Many of the people slam Nehru and his ilk on giving up Tibet, but they maintain a studied silence on this regard.
  • The Khandhar hijack and release of the three most notorious terrorists.
  • UPA -II is not the first government during whose reign the price of onion equalled that of a price of a litre of petrol. NDA had the dubious honour.
  • The corruption done by NDA, remember the coffin-gate scam?

And I am not even talking about the pogrom of over 2000 Indian citizens in Gujarat which again happened under NDA rule. About UPA -II and congress, they got arrogant and misgoverned during their entire Tenure. 10 years is more than enough to complete a stalled LCA project or to rectify the shortcomings in Kaveri. It is more than enough to do capacity building. Right now we should be flying prototypes of AMCA in air.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Lilo » 25 Dec 2013 12:12

^^ Reply in OT thread
viewtopic.php?p=1564862#p1564862

What a load of equal equal... :rotfl:
Re: Guj riots..
2000 citizens killed ?
A pogrom ? When out of thousand dead, roughly 30% were Hindu(and most killed in police firing ) and 70 % Muslim ...?
That's called a "riot" if you don't know the word !
Please to stop reading out your "facts" from NGO guide book to Gujarat .
Last edited by Lilo on 25 Dec 2013 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2013 12:18

Christopher Sidor wrote:[*] The failure to cross LOC/IB during Kargil


Which would have led to a full scale war which India was unprepared for. Go look up/research India's limitations in ammunition reserves prior to Kargil, again a legacy of previous Govts.

[*] Their stationing of our Army in the sweltering heat of Indian summer during operation Parakam.


A war which could have been fought in the nuclear overhang, which the GOI had no clear answers for. Today, we know immediately after Parakram, the NDA Govt kicked off the BMD program and the IA the Cold Start. And whats happened to Cold Start? Hobbled by lack of procurement and deliberate lack of support, even as IA tries its hardest to do its bit.

[*] Going to play homage where the resolution to divide India was passed in Pakistan.


The Pakistanis have a long history of pulling stunts to embarrass India. Compare & contrast to Sharm al Sheik where the present Govt agreed to Pak terms. Or the long history of Pak loving despite terror attacks, for instance sending a dove card to Zardari by the PM after 26/11.

[*] The PM of NDA went to PRC and said out aloud that Tibet is a part of PRC. Many of the people slam Nehru and his ilk on giving up Tibet, but they maintain a studied silence on this regard.


Tibet being a part of PRC has been the Indian establishments line for a long while in order to prevent PRC from escalating insurgency in the NE. To expect NDA to reverse this at a time when they were under geopolitical pressure, and against a powerful neighbor is folly.

[*] The Khandhar hijack and release of the three most notorious terrorists.


This is sheer silliness. The NDA Govt had no other options once the aircraft were out of Indian soil, that at least is something they could be blamed for, but again, more a sign of systemic C3I failure in the Indian response system as evident in 26/11. What would you have them do otherwise? JS too the considered brave decision to put himself in harms way & go to Afghanistan himself (as versus sending a flunkey) along with NSG commandos. The situation was such that no other response, at short notice was possible, with relatives wailing Kashmir de do, humare logon ko waapas lao.. and the anti NDA media playing up a frenzy.

[*] UPA -II is not the first government during whose reign the price of onion equalled that of a price of a litre of petrol. NDA had the dubious honour.


Yes, demand supply mismatches should be considered a big deal, whereas scam after scam after scam, now in the thousands of crores range are no big deal.

[*] The corruption done by NDA, remember the coffin-gate scam?


What coffin gate scam? The "scam" wherein the IA pushed for & asked for urgent imports of metal coffins for its soldiers, and the NDA obliged only to be accused of a scam by a prufrock Tejpal? At best, it could be accused of rushing things through, which is usually the case when people are dead, and there is no time to sit around evaluating a zillion proposals on who is the cheapest.

The other "scam" - Barak missiles etc - foisted on the NDA for political purposes alone, slandering a CNS in the process, was finally closed after twelve years after no evidence was found that any scam occurred.

Compare & contrast to the long running Tatra one.

And I am not even talking about the pogrom of over 2000 Indian citizens in Gujarat which again happened under NDA rule.


Enough of the craziness please, repeating motivated propaganda as some sort of shibboleth.

There was no "pogrom" of Indian citizens in Gujarat. There were communal riots sparked off after a bunch of idiots murdered a bunch of pilgrims in a train. Not the first time riots have occurred, and unfortunately won't be the last either.

This year itself we saw riots in UP, we saw the huge issue in the NE - and those are merely the tip of the iceberg.

About UPA -II and congress, they got arrogant and misgoverned during their entire Tenure.


Oh, merely arrogant. And merely misgoverned.

The massive corruption and the scams, the demonization of a community by associating it with terrorism (wherein wailing everytime the reverse was done), the attempt to foist 26/11 on the same community and absolve Pak, the almost complete disarming of the Indian Army when it comes to warfighting requirements of ammunition & arty (cancelling many of the NDA era decisions) and only partial reversal after a letter leaked to embarrass an Army Chief backfired, the reversal of national security related laws (POTA), the abject surrender to Pakistan on many issues ...all these don't count.

10 years is more than enough to complete a stalled LCA project or to rectify the shortcomings in Kaveri. It is more than enough to do capacity building. Right now we should be flying prototypes of AMCA in air.


Yes, your aerospace expertise, gained from your detailed knowledge of these programs history, the technical requirements therein & what are available led you to this superb conclusion. Very believable.
Last edited by Karan M on 25 Dec 2013 12:25, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2013 12:19

Marten wrote:We can hear the wind tunnel being put to full use through even this holiday period.
If that is a sign of good things to come, cheers to all.


MK-2 zindabad!!
So located near WTR?? The folks there crib about that tunnel noise everyday.. is it really that loud?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Christopher Sidor » 25 Dec 2013 12:27

Lilo wrote:^^ Reply in OT thread
viewtopic.php?p=1564862#

And the point remains the same, the previous NDA did next to zilch for Indian defence, they were in many cases bad for Indian defence.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2013 12:37

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Lilo wrote:^^ Reply in OT thread
viewtopic.php?p=1564862#

And the point remains the same, the previous NDA did next to zilch for Indian defence, they were in many cases bad for Indian defence.


Your point is no point at all, and only shows how completely ignorant you are about anything in depth, related to Indian defence otherwise you'd not have responded with such frivolous claims.

The NDA:

1. Revitalized Indias defence research by ramping up support for local program after program which were hitherto languishing. There are several memoirs of prominent technologists during the period who note this.

2. Rapidly conducted India's nuclear tests in the face of intense international opposition, and weathered it. Shepherded important programs through the backlah and did not cancel even ONE strategic program. In the face of sanctions, reached out to Israel and started off a new arms/technology pipeline.

India today is a de facto nuclear power thanks to the spine the NDA showed during its tenure. They not only had the tests done, but legitimized India's nuke status & had its establishment get clear recognition, hence resources to pursue their work openly, instead of languishing as some sort of jugaad enterprise in the background. Without this, India would have had no deterrence. Till they came about, work on NW was ad hoc & conducted as some sort of avoidable enterprise. They made it the cornerstone of Indian power and legitimate.

3. Attempted to reach out to Pak, and when rebuffed, became practical and imposed a slew of anti terror measures for internal security & also gave free leash
to the Indian Armed Forces for COIN ops/cross border duels. In contrast, UPA has hobbled the IA from even reacting to cross border attacks, let alone interior ones. Internal agencies have become political tools

4. Kicked off a long overdue modernization of the Indian services by approving rapid procurement of arms and munition, expansion of defence capacity - production & manufacture, and also doctrinal modernisation (Cold Start was born off of this). In contrast, UPAs tenure saw the Indian services starved of critical systems while a few high profile acquisitions were touted.

5. Encouraged the technologists to address the nuclear angle - kicking off the BMD program.

Basically, you neither understand nor know the depth of the rot under the UPA regime, hence your glib homilies against the NDA. Spend some time looking up the facts, instead of mouthing propaganda about pogroms and you'll understand the difference.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2013 13:02

srai wrote:For the AMCA TDs, a lot of the LCA technologies (some as is and some with modifications) could be incorporated to get them flying by 2018-2020 timeframe. This is unlike the LCA project where everything had to be built from ground up! The PVs will take more time given a whole sets of new technologies planned for it but even here the new technologies could be added incrementally through PVs 1 to 7.

Here are technologies that will transfer relatively "easily" to the AMCA TDs:
  • R&D Infrastructure - more than 60 test rigs (iron bird,etc) and various facilities (wind tunnel, lightening, stress tests etc); design software
  • R&D Practice - experienced management, engineers and scientist along with best practices
  • Flight Testing & Certification - various telemetry equipment, experienced test team and practices and certification process
  • Components - Composites, Avionics (computers, controls, MMR), EW suite
  • FBW - if written well, software architecture and code reuse and where possible extension


I hope the IAF wishlist for the AMCA remains prudent and the scientific community likewise, make a clear distinction between essential and good to have, and focus on the former. In which case, a lot in your list can be leveraged to a large extent.

The critical areas that are currently lacking and can then be addressed will be:

1. Full blown, wideband stealth research - facilities with full scale test chambers, materials, subsystems (e.g. flush air data sensors, wideband, yet freq selective radomes, effective cooling systems, LPI algorithms and compatible hardware)/
2. Focus on propulsion - getting a decent technology engine with significant growth potential.
3. State of the art targeting sensors compatible with VLO/LO characteristics.

Otherwise, we are going to extend the envelope to best-in-everything, add far too many items to the critical path and again face challenges. Good enough versus the best in everything must dominate thinking.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 07 Jan 2014 08:00

Note: It says launch the program, not first prototype. The design work will be completed by 2018.

'India to Launch Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft in Another 5 Years'

The product design work of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft has been started by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and the vehicle is expected to be ready in 2018, Dr Tamilmani, Director General (Aeronautical Systems) DRDO, Bangalore has said.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the three-day international meet on ‘Product Life Cycle, Modelling, Simulation and Synthesis (PLMSS) at VIT university on Monday,’ he said the aircraft would be equipped with twin engines with super cruise power and for the first time it would be using the stealth technology to ‘hide’ from radar surveillance.
...
...

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nash » 07 Jan 2014 08:56

If it is launch in 2018 then we can expect first flight by 2025, as per statement of DRDO scientist.

I think this time line is also enough to get the operational kaveri on-board.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 07 Jan 2014 09:25

putnanja wrote:Note: It says launch the program, not first prototype. The design work will be completed by 2018.

'India to Launch Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft in Another 5 Years'

The product design work of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft has been started by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and the vehicle is expected to be ready in 2018, Dr Tamilmani, Director General (Aeronautical Systems) DRDO, Bangalore has said.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the three-day international meet on ‘Product Life Cycle, Modelling, Simulation and Synthesis (PLMSS) at VIT university on Monday,’ he said the aircraft would be equipped with twin engines with super cruise power and for the first time it would be using the stealth technology to ‘hide’ from radar surveillance.
...
...


An older article:

Dec 21, 2013 :: "There are no serious technology challenges ahead" says PS Subramanyam, Director ADA

I do not think the engine is an issue.

Q. After the Tejas, ADA has been pushing hard for a programme to develop an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)? Where is that?

There is no approved programme yet, but the DRDO had approved a feasibility study which we have done. We are trying to arrive at the specifications of an engine that can give us supercruise (i.e. flying at supersonic without afterburner) but that kind of engine is not readily available. So we are deliberating on whether we should start designing an engine ab initio, or improve upon an existing engine. The IAF is very keen on the AMCA.

Q. How long would this take to enter service?

The AMCA would need 7-10 years for development, and so would enter production only in the mid-2020s. We would require time for building prototypes, stabilising the design, establishing a production line. We would gain expertise from the (Indo-Russian) Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme.

Q. Would we have both the AMCA and the FGFA?

These are two different classes of aircraft and there is no clash between them. The FGFA is a 30 tonne class heavy fighter with a long range. The AMCA would be a 20 tonne medium fighter, with an extreme range of about 1000 km.

Nor does it clash with the MMRCA. The Rafale is an early-1990s design. It does not fall into the 5th generation in terms of stealth characteristics. So the air force sees a place for the AMCA in its future fleet.


Production in 2025 was based on a 7-10 year cycle. IF it is a 5 year cycle, then I would expect a AMCA closer to 2020. Perhaps 2021-22ish.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Jan 2014 18:36

the lack of a supercruise capable engine is the critical factor here
wonder if MMRCA will change things in this picture?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby member_28041 » 07 Jan 2014 20:15

Are the GE414 EPE version (with 120kN wet thrust and 75KN dry thrust) capable of super cruise?
Can anyone confirm the dry thrust figure of 75KN for EPE?

The thrust figures of GE414 are : 98(wet) and 58(dry)

GE414 EPE could be a potential candidate for AMCA initially which should enable it to super cruise.
Of course this again depends on the planned weight of AMCA.

Any other engine available in its weight/thrust class as of now(Apart from EJ200)?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 07 Jan 2014 20:17

nope... resistance is futile.. give up on this lethargy towards turbine technology. invest more, get the best of the cream deployed to get kaveri happen for LCA Mk3... we can wake up for mmrca effectively and meaningfully later. imho onlee

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 07 Jan 2014 20:30

Lalmohan wrote:the lack of a supercruise capable engine is the critical factor here
wonder if MMRCA will change things in this picture?

nitinraj wrote:Are the GE414 EPE version (with 120kN wet thrust and 75KN dry thrust) capable of super cruise?


I don't get it. What does a supercruise capable engine mean? Whether or not the AMCA is able to supercruise will depend on its aerodynamic characteristcs and T:W ratio. Two aircraft having the same engine may exhibit different supercruise behaviors. Saab claims the Gripen NG can supercruise with one regular GE-F414 (not the EPE). If true, that just means the Gripen is light enough and not too draggy so that the dry thrust generated by the F414 is enough to propel it past mach 1. There is nothing special about the engine itself.

That's my understanding anyway.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Jan 2014 20:40

the engine should be able to generate sufficient sustained thrust at around ~75-80% output (not peak thrust) such that the aerodynamics of the aircraft allow it to achieve sustained supersonic speeds and the fuel burn rate does not exceed the 'efficient' part of the curve. there is no simple formula for this, but the key question is what is the thrust level required for sustained supersonic cruise, and which engine can deliver it for the given configuration? the suggestion from the above article is that the engines being tried out are not able to provide sufficient sustained thrust for the configuration and that a different one will be required

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2014 20:58

is there a 'transonic' region mach1-mach1.3 where some characteristics of planes are not desirable, so everyone likes to stay below mach1 or above mach1.3...it 'useful' supercruise is only a saleable product in +mach1.3 range?

wiki has this:
Severe instability can occur at transonic speeds. Shock waves move through the air at the speed of sound. When an object such as an aircraft also moves at the speed of sound, these shock waves build up in front of it to form a single, very large shock wave. During transonic flight, the plane must pass through this large shock wave, as well as contend with the instability caused by air moving faster than sound over parts of the wing and slower in other parts.

Transonic speeds can also occur at the tips of rotor blades of helicopters and aircraft. However, as this puts severe, unequal stresses on the rotor blade, it is avoided and may lead to dangerous accidents if it occurs. It is one of the limiting factors to the size of rotors, and also to the forward speeds of helicopters (as this speed is added to the forward-sweeping (leading) side of the rotor, thus possibly causing localized transonics).

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Jan 2014 21:01

there is generally a lot of buffetting in the transonic range

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2014 21:05

I guess a lot of planes can supercruise in clean mode, but
- except raptor, all of them have external stores to make them useful and this prevents supercruise (EF might be able to with 4 semi conformal AAM)
- in useful roles they need to cart around drop tanks
- they dont have enough fuel in clean mode to supercruise for a long duration - big boxy airframe needed for lots of internal fuel

actually I also doubt how useful the raptor would be in clean mode, without bigtime tanker support to avoid carrying external drop tanks.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Jan 2014 21:12

actually very few, the engines are not able to sustain high thrust for long, particularly if they have to resort to afterburner (and then the fuel runs out fast anyway)

roughly speaking, mostly the mil thrust rating is supposed to sustain a 0.6-0.8M range (without burners) and boost to the full speed for 15-20 mins (for the big boys) with the lights on - but newer aircraft have pushed that out to the 1.1-1.3M range at altitude

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2014 22:51

Lal mullah,

I think you meant
Lalmohan wrote:actually very few, the engines are not able to sustain high thrust for long, particularly if they have to resort to afterburner (and then the fuel runs out fast anyway)

roughly speaking, mostly the mil thrust rating is supposed to sustain a 0.6-0.8M range (without burners) and boost to the full speed for 15-20 mins (for the big boys) with the lights on - but newer aircraft have pushed that out to the 1.1-1.3M range at altitude

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 07 Jan 2014 23:11

instead of % speak, in layman's terms (what i understand) is if the engine can help sustain the aircraft at any mach level > 1 constantly for the entireflight/mission profile without using the afterburner, then that engine should qualify for super cruise.
Last edited by SaiK on 07 Jan 2014 23:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Jan 2014 23:12

only for the cruise phase of the flight

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 07 Jan 2014 23:13

yup.. correct that!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 08 Jan 2014 09:09

putnanja wrote:Note: It says launch the program, not first prototype. The design work will be completed by 2018.

'India to Launch Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft in Another 5 Years'

The product design work of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft has been started by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and the vehicle is expected to be ready in 2018, Dr Tamilmani, Director General (Aeronautical Systems) DRDO, Bangalore has said.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the three-day international meet on ‘Product Life Cycle, Modelling, Simulation and Synthesis (PLMSS) at VIT university on Monday,’ he said the aircraft would be equipped with twin engines with super cruise power and for the first time it would be using the stealth technology to ‘hide’ from radar surveillance.
...
...


Yes indeed and that is what the IAF has been saying too that AMCA will be given the go ahead once Tejas Mk2 is done with , so 2018 is when they would start FSED ...it takes 5-7 years to build a prototype and another 5-7 years to get the IOC done .......so realistically speaking we should get AMCA IOC done by ~ 2030

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 08 Jan 2014 19:10

The K word again will repeat itself for self-reliance!!! I'd expect logical thinking gets into senior strategists to invest more into K.


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Jan 2014 18:34

DRDO opens Dhruva-3 indigenous High Performance Computing Systems for AMCA stealgth fighter aircraft program

:D “Its a high end facility very useful for the design of aircraft's particularly Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - AMCA and other such aircrafts where we require analysis of aerodynamics at high speeds and under different conditions”, said Avinash Chander addressing ANURAG scientists on this occasion.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 25 Jan 2014 19:32

Chacko,

Do we know if this software does anything more than "analysis of aerodynamics at high speeds"? So, does it have a library for materials and associated items? How about costing, manufacturing, perhaps even supply chain?

Thanks.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2014 00:30

NRao, apples and oranges.. for that kind of info, one would not need high end facilities and super computing systems. my laptop power is enough to fetch you those cost, mft, supply chain, and even keep management, orchestration, engineering drawings etc,. :)


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