AMCA News and Discussions

ranjithnath
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ranjithnath » 07 Dec 2010 07:23

it would have been good to see if GTRE actually replied to RFI for ATD-X engines :wink:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 09 Dec 2010 07:32

CVRDE, Avadi will design gearboxes for AMCA too
Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi, will design and develop gearboxes for India's advanced medium combat aircraft.

At a press conference, CVRDE director P. Sivakumar said the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has promised the new project after the Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gearbox (AMAGB), used in Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-Tejas), was approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC).

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 09 Dec 2010 10:52

A post in another thread showed how the Chinese were now experiencing some serious difficulties reverse-engineering Russian engines.Even though they have made huge progress in the same,the engines appear to be inferior to original Russian engines.Therefore,with the AMCA we should not make the same mistake as we have with the LCA and choose an engine for the first TD prototypes with room for a larger more powerful engine built into the design.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nrshah » 09 Dec 2010 13:05

There were some recent comments from ADA/HAL that it would have been better off designing NLCA ahead of air force LCA...Now when AMCA program officially includes N-AMCA, will we work on N_AMCA ahead of Air force variant?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nrshah » 09 Dec 2010 14:52

Marten wrote:^ That would drastically increase the chances of that bird being inducted on schedule without unreasonable demands made on the basis of foreign brochures and such demands being accepted by career bureaucrats masquerading as scientists, both parties acting at the cost of the nation's interest.


Agree with your point related to scheduled induction... However, your point as i assume was more related to customer interest /ownership in the project... While I was more to understand technical benefits that might be there in designing a naval version first...

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby glene » 12 Dec 2010 15:52

What Russia’s Stealth Fighter Developments Mean for America------Special Report

http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ghter.html

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Christopher Sidor » 14 Dec 2010 12:33

One thing I wish to know is why Fiber-optics were selected?
Was it because of the inherent resilience against a EMP attack or was it to keep the weight down.

If EMP attack was the main criteria, then we are far away from creating a truly optical system, using only optical communications and optical processing systems. Currently the proposed AMCA system will incorporate a significant amount of electronic sub-systems.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Jeff Wickline » 14 Dec 2010 16:04

Christopher Sidor wrote:One thing I wish to know is why Fiber-optics were selected?
Was it because of the inherent resilience against a EMP attack or was it to keep the weight down.

If EMP attack was the main criteria, then we are far away from creating a truly optical system, using only optical communications and optical processing systems. Currently the proposed AMCA system will incorporate a significant amount of electronic sub-systems.

Has the choice of "fly by light" frozen? Could we get the source of this info?
There may be bits and pieces of optical communication, that is plausible. But going whole hog optical communication and processing is a tad too futuristic. Cheers.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 14 Dec 2010 16:05

I think the main reason for choosing fiber optics is higher data transfer rate - lower weight comes as an added advantage.
It is far from being EMP resistant.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2010 16:48

Glene,that was a fine post about the PAK-FA/FGFA and the challenge to the USAF.However,the US has had a "flying start" of several years of operating the F-22 and one key aspect during any crisis especially with China will be the number of enemy aircraft opposed against US F-22s oipertaing in the Pacific out of Guam,etc.The number of AAMs that can be carried is critical if enemy forces vastly outnumber superior US F-22s.This is probably why the IAF expects to induct such a large number of FGFAs (250-300),probably at least 25-35% of the IAF's future inventory to deal with a joint Sino-Pak threat.If you add another stealth aircraft in the form of the AMCA then the % age of stealth aircraft in the IAF will be around 50% (450-500).Since so much of developmental work has been done on the LCA,I would even suggest that a stealth version-a MK-3,is developed too,which could be a single-engined prototype for a larger AMCA,much in the manner in which the SU-35S is being fitted with 5th-gen tech/systems before the PAK-FA is inducted.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Christopher Sidor » 16 Dec 2010 20:37

Philip I second that work on LCA-Mk3, which should incorporate stealth and other 5th generation technology should be started.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 16 Dec 2010 20:52

I think that LCA Mark-3 should be semi stealth something like EADS MAKO i.e. with external carriage of stores. AMCA & UCAV can be full stealth

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 16 Dec 2010 20:54

well stealth bomb / missile carriers and smaller munitions to fit inside could help everyone.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ashokpachori » 17 Dec 2010 00:28

Russia and India fix T-50 fighter design contract cost at $295 mln


"The cost of preliminary design is estimated at $295 million. The work is expected to be complete within 18 months," Nayak said.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2010 02:20

I think composite does not transfer to stealth in the sense, if the waves passes through, then it will reflect back on the internal surface and back through like a glass [example: radome on the tejas is kevlar]. The internal surface must be angled to deflect to take care of stealth. Perhaps like how ISRO packages golden film on its satellites pre launch, slightly thicker shape retainable foils to cover internal parts could be used to deflect.

I may be entirely wrong here. Any radiating stealth gurus?

BTW, ABV might name AMCA, tejas' bro - Ojas.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 17 Dec 2010 09:40

ashokpachori wrote:Russia and India fix T-50 fighter design contract cost at $295 mln


"The cost of preliminary design is estimated at $295 million. The work is expected to be complete within 18 months," Nayak said.


AMCA gets initial Rs. 100 crore and budget of Rs. 5000 crore

PAKFA gets Initial Rs 1400 crore and budget of Rs. 60,000 crore

And this when Sonia Kangess is for indigenisation

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 17 Dec 2010 09:53

to be fair its a not straight comparison. FGFA is starting out way ahead in the form of the flying Pakfa - 5th gen engine is on track (or so they say), the plane flies, radar is on track (so they say) and FCS is there. all the FGFA might do is work out the 2nd seat WSO config, avionic changes if any, EW fit changes if any......what else is there? the plane will be the same overall size. there is NO desi aesa radar (no pulse doppler either) anywhere near that big form factor, no desi engine, no desi AAMs to fit on the FGFA. the indian contribution to PAFA project is zero today and likely to remain minimal except the small customizations mentioned above. it will be license production of a customized product similar to the MKI deal. we will get a good product no doubt but learning is minimal...we might get some TOT on stealth shaping for fuselage and RCS testing methods for the same.

AMCA will be a ground up effort and leverage the Tejas building blocks. Engine imo is likely to be F414-mk2 or EJ220 since I do not except kaveri to be a working product in 7 yrs time when we need it . but we are likely to have a desi aesa radar (maybe with some israeli components taken off el2052) and astra,sudarshan working by then and all the FCS/cockpit avionics/airframe/stealth/EW will be ours or selected by us. the test infra and people for this itself is priceless. if VLO is a goal, we can attempt to copy features from working designs like JSF rather than 'make a statement' with a all-new design.

the AMCA funding is imo only the initial dole. far more will be needed (and given) if they are serious about it.

imo we should wrap up the FGFA spec quickly, tell them what we want and pay them to do it . focus all available resources on AMCA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 17 Dec 2010 11:10

Interesting news has appeared about Turkey's plans to develop its own fighter since the South Koreans would not offer full partnership (they offered something like 20% stake) and Turkey now claims to be not interested in the Typhoon. Pakis will look very keenly at this program since they have good defence ties with them and may be interested in getting a hand in a 4.5-5th gen aircraft at an early stage itself (although they have very little to nothing to offer technology or product wise). China is going it alone on the 5th gen fighter so this might be the Pakis best chance to ride along on someone else's coat tails (ala JF-17 where China did everything but Pakis are the ones producing it).

Turkey to build "national" aircraft

Turkey's top defense procurement committee decided late Wednesday that Ankara would develop and manufacture its next air-to-air fighter aircraft, either by itself or in cooperation with another country, Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said.

Gönül told reporters after a meeting of the Defense Industry Executive Committee that the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, Turkey's procurement agency, would start talks with Turkish Aerospace Industries, the country's main aerospace company, for a "conceptual design" of a fighter aircraft and a jet trainer to be built after the year 2020.
.....
Gönül also said Turkey has rejected an offer by the Eurofighter consortium for the sale of Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. "The Eurofighter is off Turkey's agenda," he said.
......
The minister said Turkey may cooperate with South Korea, but implied that this is a small possibility. "We can manufacture the new fighter aircraft with them, we don't rule this out. But the decision we have taken now calls for the production of a totally national and original aircraft," he said.

Separately, Turkish and South Korean officials earlier have said that Turkey, South Korea and Indonesia jointly may develop the South Korean-led KF-X fighter aircraft.

But Turkey is now stepping back from this option. "What we need is a true and equal partnership for the development of a fighter. The problem is that South Korea is not likely to agree to an equal partnership," a senior Turkish procurement told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review, speaking on condition of anonymity.



With no prior experience of building fighter jets except licence assembly of F-16s, this is a huge challenge for Turkey to go for it alone. EADS or Saab will definitely be interested in assisting them.

Turkey to field new fighter by 2023

The Turkish air force could introduce an indigenous twin-engined fighter around 2023, according to the nation's Undersecretary of Defence Industries (SSM) procurement agency.

Plans for the "Turkish type fighter" were unveiled in Ankara on 15 December, with local company Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) named as general co-ordinator for the programme.

The SSM has allocated $20 million for an initial two-year design phase to be conducted by TAI, with the company to also be responsible for sourcing engines from a foreign supplier.

Under the SSM's plans, the new fighter would be available for service around 2023 as a replacement for the air force's McDonnell Douglas F-4s (below) and Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 30s. It would operate alongside the service's planned future fleet of 100 conventional take-off and landing F-35A Joint Strike Fighters, plus its later-model F-16s.


So a twin engine fighter to replace F-4s and F-16 Block 30s. They have no engine of their own, so a US or European engine choice is required. With the existing engines they will likely end up with an AMCA class fighter as well.

Just posting it here since its another new program, with somewhat similar timelines (which will be even more tight for them) and an industry with a lot less experience in designing or developing fighters since they have no Tejas type fighter experience.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Dec 2010 21:46

^^^
What are the chances that this fighter might be seen in Pakistan Air Force?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 18 Dec 2010 21:47

who will pay for it ?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 18 Dec 2010 21:56

^^^ US , Swap a taliban get $100 million ...offer valid till talibans last :)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Dec 2010 10:41

nice find
http://books.google.com/books?id=qZlrRe ... &q&f=false

It finds place in stealth war planes..
MTOW 40K Lbs

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 20 Dec 2010 10:48

PLEASE DON'T VISIT the ASIAN DEFENCE BLOG

Site is being run by paki / closet paki with possible eye ass eye cooperation.
The owner has several viruses, spyware loaded on there.
You might compromise your location and BR Ids when you visit there.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Dec 2010 10:56

Thanks Gagan, perhaps post in other forum as well.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby arya » 20 Dec 2010 15:07

Thank-you Sir, i think there is a need of a thread where all the haraam site listed.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2010 16:16

pakis are always looking to absorb technology, they might fund some of the turkish program. other than pak will be bit hard for turkey to find financial backers - Soko and Japan have own progs, the gulf sunni's shiekhs are not great chums with them(and need to buy american/EU to recycle petrodollars), east europe is broken backed....

they will have to do it mostly on their own - like India did. a engine and radar can be purchased from anywhere they want. they might be able to build the radar themself actually.

relations with israel have cooled, else israeli help could have really helped their plan.

Malaysia might decide to invest, maybe Indonesia. but to be pragmatic they might decide to work with Soko instead - a far better chance of success on time and equally open doors to massa/EU kit.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 20 Dec 2010 16:26

indonesia is already committed to the SoKo program.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2010 20:31

on paper yes - but faith, emotion and unity can trump logic often.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 03 Jan 2011 00:21

Are there 2 AMCA wind tunnel models out there?

Note the air intakes.

Image
Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2011 02:59

Frontal view has dynamite stealth!!!!!


Kidding aside, I do not think there are two, although I cannot explain what appears to be the absence of air intakes in the second picture.

Befuddling that no one took a video of the model and put it on utube.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2011 04:11

Can't imagine having a LEVCON on this design.. may be the intakes needs to be pushed little back so that a canard/ LEVCON can be introduced to support high AoA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 03 Jan 2011 05:30

One doesn't need a canard or LEVCON for high AOA. Besides a canard and LEVCON is horrible for RCS.

The wing of the MCA is an ideal wing for high AoA by itself. Its leading edge is in principle very close to the F-16 XL wing.

I don't think we will see the curved wings on the wind tunnel model. we will see something closer to the wings on the CAD drawings.
Image

I must add, if the MCA looks like this CAD drawings, it will be a beautiful bird (certainly in my top 5 of all times without any nationalism :)).

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 03 Jan 2011 06:55

the wind tunnel model unveiled at Yelahanka in February 2009 is largely what the aircraft will look like, though there are three other variants that have not been displayed yet


http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/01/in ... craft.html

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2011 07:03

D Roy wrote:
the wind tunnel model unveiled at Yelahanka in February 2009 is largely what the aircraft will look like, though there are three other variants that have not been displayed yet


http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/01/in ... craft.html


(That seems to be from Jan, 2010).

It does mean that the two pictures belong to the same model (that was displayed).

BTW, recent articles seem to imply that the design will be frozen at the end of 2011.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2011 07:35

Well let us hope the sensor packs also improves, like in pak-fa having the radars on the wings, side lobes, rear etc. AMCA could think about Eu PIRATE and ALR-94 type passive receiver system to maintain LPI.

Quite a bit of work is needed. quite a bit of huge task at hand. Quite a lot of projects needs to kick off right away experimenting on the LCA platform.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2011 07:41

I view it is a process - FGFA and Tejas Mk2 will provide a better handle and learning to put together the AMCA which is most ambitious and challenging of the three. at the same time HAL will need to brush up its manufacturing technology to the sub-mm tolerances needed for VLO a/c and find ways to minimize the maintainence procedures. all in all a broad spectrum of challenges.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 03 Jan 2011 08:00

ultimately its about mastering the technology cycle ... as PPC's article in HT talks about.

But the good news is we will find a lot of people wanting to join this just as we joined the PAK-FA programme once this program advances to the prototype stage..

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2011 08:25

Saik,

THAT is one thing you do not have to worry about. FbL is enough said.

(Did you miss the AWST article by any chance?)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2011 01:56

I remember reading all of the links here.

But is there any explanation for the intakes looking so different? I mean it is not angles and stuff. One is a solid fill while the other has a hole. Possible doctoring?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 04 Jan 2011 02:01

If you read the AWST link, it says the design changes are expected and perhaps frozen only by EoY 2011. Sope, expect a lot nursing under few well qualified doctors. :mrgreen:


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