Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 26 Jan 2013 07:30

Agni-V on its King of the Road TEL :D

Image

sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sarabpal.s » 26 Jan 2013 07:57

Juggi G wrote:Agni-V on its King of the Road TEL :D


it appears that IMHO reentry vehicle is more conical Like A3 than the A5 which give round shape at the based between third stage an reentery vehicle
Last edited by SSridhar on 26 Jan 2013 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Don't have to re-post the image.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Jan 2013 09:04

my spider senses tell me there are actually 2 versions each of Astra and Nirbhay undergoing somewhat concurrent development.

astra1 - lead platform - the lighter 175kg airframe similar to Mica specs
astra2 - the longer range 300kg Lraam to launch ambush attacks on large targets using supersonic launch platform at 50,000ft to maximise the energy - stuffed with the same goodness as astra1 only more of it. might have a 150km range in lofted mode

nirbhay1 - the vanilla tomahawkish deep strike SLCM / GLCM to start with, followed by air launch
nirbhay2 - a larger , slower , loitering version using propfan borrowed from early days of kh101 - a kind of ER-Harop if you will with a heavier bombload. and this needs a stealthy airframe to loiter safely. a "swarm" could be launched to hunt their meat along certain axis like the lhasa-chumbi valley road or any such designated waypoints to patrol. Harop and its modded successors with IIR sensors and vehicle id libs can take care of the 'tactical' radius in this role. BAI can be nirbhay2 to hit the MSRs.

in 3 yrs time I expect to be proven fully correct on the above. until then feel free to trash my opinion and heckle me here.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2013 10:08

the main maal section can take 200kg times 5 petals [the maroon region], and the brunt of re-entry is taken by the pointed black cone (high composite carbon shield). Not sure how much of maal's primary trigger section is part of the black exterior of the cone face

but then, the same of A5-MIRV should be different.. we shall see, hopefully before year end.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Jan 2013 12:56

when the SLBM application is seen for K4, we shall likely see the tapering part gone, with a fat third stage and a "ogival" cone ahead of it, featuring aerospike, aeroplate and a ring of small RV warheads arranged around a central core . some have even managed to squeeze the 3rd stage into this central core making the missile very short like Trident D5 but it might take us the 2nd gen SLBM to get there.

also composite casing for 1st stage is a must to reduce weight, making the missile both faster and smaller(less propellent needed for 1st stage work). again it might take us to K4-v2 for it.

first let us get 20 of these bad boys into SAC active duty in steel cansisters and then the modding can start.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jan 2013 14:51

arun wrote:
ravi_g wrote:Ok now this could be the answer.

The Prithvi used UDMH (stable). but the problems seems like was because of Oxyacid route to oxidation. Seems like we use Nitrogen Tetroxide a lot for our rocketry and missiles. During production and usage NTO needs to be cooled to a liquid form and then during the production process Nitric Acid is also produced which is also an oxidizer and is also used in PUREX. :rotfl:

Good thing they messed around with the fuel instead of the oxidizer.


From what I can make out the liquid propellant used by the Prithvi is not UDMH.

The Hypergolic fuel aka “G Fuel” used is Isomeric Xylidine (50%) plus Triethylamine (50%).

The Oxidiser aka “O Fuel” used is Red Fuming Nitic Acid (RFNA) with Phosphoric Acid (H3PO4) and Hydrofluoric acid (HF) added as corrosion inhibitors.

See this link from the OFB:

Clicky



Thanks for pointing that out.

The Mix you are talking about is the Samine/Tonka. Also very old (German). I had read that during the Kerosene days of Scuds this was used as the starter fuel. I reached the wrong conclusion that this fuel was only meant as a starter. Apparently there are a lot of missiles (Non western) that use this combination.

Amines & Samines are the situ or the base materials on which Hydrazines (UDMH) are maide. So the Samine fuel should be usable as the base for other hydrazines (other then UDMH). Even for UDMH the Triethylamine you are talking about is one of the recommended inputs for certain processes.

This Samine/Tonka is the other route to getting some of the fuel characterstics of UDMH but much more toxic and somewhat poorer ignition characterstics compared to UDMH. Apparently in one of the old methods of UDMH manufacturing (Nitrosamine/Nitroamine) the amine usage was found so risky for workers that they had to shut down the plant for good in US and US moved wholescale to UDMH/MMH by Chloramine which required one more step but the production process was safer and so was the end product with lower freezing point aka good for Himalayas and space use & other low temp applications requiring long storage times.

Actually I never went on to read flame characterstics nor did I read about Isayev engines. Thanks to you now I know something about these too. Engines and Flame characterstics should have made it clear had I reached that part of reading.


PS:
Also as an add on info. Indians had a 3.5 ton Hydrazine (old risky variety) production capacity in 1973 and lab capacity for UDMH. By 1986 it seems Indian scientists were very confident of all varieties of Hydrazines and this Samine fuels and had already begun working on newer varities but this new thing seems to have petered out as one of the material (2012) I read was also discussing the exact same position. DRDO seems to have moved focus out of this area. Not that, that is bad, though.

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1174
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 27 Jan 2013 15:05

India successfully tests submarine based ballistic missile system
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... topstories

member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 27 Jan 2013 15:47

dinesha wrote:India successfully tests submarine based ballistic missile system
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... topstories


the report mentioned launch from a submarine platform, it basically means submerged pontoon and not a submarine right ?
But why don't they show the launch when they acknowledge the missiles existence :x
A long shot will also do, per please ek jhalak to dikha do , with the missile coming out from water and then the booster firing :wink: :wink:

marimuthu
BRFite
Posts: 168
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 09:17
Location: India

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby marimuthu » 27 Jan 2013 16:06

DD news says "India Launches medium range K-5 missile from an underwater platform"

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jan 2013 16:32

^^
The reporter from Undie tv says 700 km clearly. And this being 14th test.

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 27 Jan 2013 17:31

Great post ravi_g ji. I enjoyed reading it.

Might you have anything to share about gel fuels which supposedly have start-stop capability and ease of storage like solid fuels?

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24261
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 27 Jan 2013 17:36

India Successfully Test Fires Underwater Missile - TSS & Y.Mallikarjun, The Hindu
India on Sunday successfully test-fired the underwater ballistic missile, K-15 (code-named B05), off the Visakhapatnam coast, marking en end to a series of developmental trials.

In its twelfth flight trial, the 10-metre tall Submarine-Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM) lifted off from a pontoon, rose to an altitude of 20 km and reached a distance of about 700 km as it splashed down in the waters of the Bay of Bengal near the pre-designated target point.

According to scientific advisor to the Defence Minister V.K. Saraswat, the missile was tested for its full range of 700 km and the mission met all its objectives. He said the impact accuracy of the medium range strategic missile was in single digit.

With the completion of developmental trials, the process of integrating K-15 missile with INS Arihant, the indigenously-built nuclear submarine, will begin soon. As many as 12 nuclear-tipped missiles, each weighing six tonnes will be integrated with Arihant, which will be powered by an 80 MWt (thermal) reactor that uses enriched uranium as fuel and light water as coolant and moderator.

India is only the fifth country to have such a missile -- the other four are the United States, Russia, France and China.

Meanwhile the reactor has been integrated with the submarine and it was expected to go critical in May/ June 2013. Once that was done, the harbour trials will begin.

Besides Arihant, three other nuclear-powered submarines were being constructed -- one at Visakhapatnam and two at Vadodara. India is also developing K-4 missile with a range of 3,000 km.


Great news.

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2159
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jan 2013 18:31

VIDEO: K-15 SLBM Test Fired

D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 27 Jan 2013 18:33


shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6932
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shyamd » 27 Jan 2013 18:44

Excellent news! Jai Hind! Congrats to all involved.

Sridhar
BRFite
Posts: 838
Joined: 01 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sridhar » 27 Jan 2013 18:46


Prabu
BRFite
Posts: 423
Joined: 22 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: In the middle of a Desert

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prabu » 27 Jan 2013 18:47

Congrats Scientific community !!

Boreas
BRFite
Posts: 315
Joined: 23 Jan 2011 11:24

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Boreas » 27 Jan 2013 18:55

Its a IRBM.
Range is 1500km.
Name is Bo5.. it is in production since 2011!!

Jai Jawan Jai Kisan Jai Vigyan \ :mrgreen: /
Last edited by Boreas on 27 Jan 2013 18:58, edited 1 time in total.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3062
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 27 Jan 2013 18:57

For the first time, video clip of K-15 is released.

We can now say with 100% surety,
1. K-15 is Naval version of Shourya or to state correctly, Shourya is a land derivative of K-15, a naval sub missile.
2. Release of footage suggest that, development is complete and reached enough confidence level.
Last edited by Kanson on 27 Jan 2013 18:59, edited 1 time in total.


K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 969
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby K Mehta » 27 Jan 2013 19:03

Sheer Awesomeness

sourab_c
BRFite
Posts: 187
Joined: 14 Feb 2009 18:07
Location: around

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sourab_c » 27 Jan 2013 19:03

Those videos and pics made my day! Damn those sneaky little Indians...

Sabyasachi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 03 Jan 2011 16:01

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sabyasachi » 27 Jan 2013 19:06

Kakarat wrote:VIDEO: K-15 SLBM Test Fired


What was happening at 15th second ?

Congrats India, this was one hell of a video.

D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 27 Jan 2013 19:10

booster separates.

and main solid rocket motor takes over.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jan 2013 19:14

If it is booster separation then it does not looks like bolts getting blasted away and that means the stage separation is good to go at all altitudes at all kind of pressure situations with whatever the mass and vibrations.


congrats bhailog.

PS:
PratikDas ji sorry dont know much beyond that. Never got interested beyond this much.

member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 27 Jan 2013 19:42

D Roy wrote:Underwater launch video of DRDO's B-05


wow....fantastic 8)
curious to see that here we don;t see the missile being pushed out by a gas generator system and main booster firing out of water. Rather here it seems that the missile is powered out of water by its own rocket booster and then the main rocket takes up after some time.
Is there any other SLBM with same approach
Please correct me if any other understanding

D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 27 Jan 2013 19:52

it means that you can fire this missile from deeper ***** :wink:

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2013 20:00

yup.. booster separation is clean.. and smooth - perfect timing. watch it with zoom.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jan 2013 20:01

Arre nahin bhai. That is also what I thought when I saw the photographs. Then I downloaded the video and it is a fit and proper gas generator launch.

Sridhar
BRFite
Posts: 838
Joined: 01 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sridhar » 27 Jan 2013 20:04

The rocket motor fires up right after the missile emerges out of the water, not before.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jan 2013 20:06

SaiK you realise this general confidence of smooth separation has big significance.

These guys can confidently show to the world how to achieve separation of 6 tons mass at the part of trajectory that carries the highest vibrations and standard shock element and then carries the risk of longest duration of possible damage due to fragmentation.

But this all depends on if there is a smooth separation. To me it looks like DRDO has mastered the low shock pyrobolt or the diaphragm method.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2013 20:22


member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 27 Jan 2013 20:24

just checked the shaurya missile launch again .
Both seems to have similar characteristics. Same booster separation after 15 sec.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 27 Jan 2013 20:54

Congratulations! excellent footage and collating reports,

a) the B05 was gas ejected from 50m depth, I thought 10m is the norm or maybe for heavier missiles, can one simulate the launch of a 25ton SLBM at 10m depth by launching a 7ton SLB(C)M at 50m depth?

b) it was also launched from a R-glass composite canister which we believe is placed in a 2.4 meter dia canister, if this composite canister is stressed as in point a), does that mean we can make composite canisters and gas generators useful for K5 SLBM even now as opposed to future development?

c) right after ejecting fro the water, the attitude correction is done by small thrusters in the nosecap, which means the solid booster isn't nozzle based but later on say the K-5 which is a SLBM will have to demonstrate that since there won't be any boosters, A-5 does this but on surface. A-5 also has small thrusters in its nose cone. This is similar to an articulated vehicle, flexible but complex.

d) Brahmos with its nosecap from day one is ready for a SLCM vertical launch, wonder why didn't they test it from a underwater pontoon yet? Nirbhay as an SLCM isn't too far, hopefully before the green Qing's make their debut in the Arabian sea

Anyways, looks like Arihant will be the playpen for all these babies and onto K-4 Ahoy!

member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 27 Jan 2013 21:17

dhiraj wrote:But why don't they show the launch when they acknowledge the missiles existence
A long shot will also do, per please ek jhalak to dikha do , with the missile coming out from water and then the booster firing


Guess i should have wished the same for K 4 missile too today :wink: :wink:
It could also have come true :P :P

SivaVijay
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 09 Apr 2009 19:23

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SivaVijay » 27 Jan 2013 21:26

^^^ :D

Ahem..., So has anyone seen a JL-2 Launch video? :twisted: :twisted:

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 27 Jan 2013 21:33

I wonder why does Shaurya needs a nose shroud ; Brahmos requires it because it has a ram air intake .

Uttam
BRFite
Posts: 469
Joined: 15 Apr 2003 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Uttam » 27 Jan 2013 21:38

negi wrote:I wonder why does Shaurya needs a nose shroud ; Brahmos requires it because it has a ram air intake .


(Just guessing).

Is it protect the nose skin from any kind of damage that sea water can do to the nose skin? I suppose the material and shape of missile nose is optimized to bear the high temperatures of flight through air and even a slightest scratch can be a killer for the missile (remember the Space Shuttle Columbia).

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2842
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 27 Jan 2013 21:43

Firstpost says its the K-5 missile with a 1500KM range. Later on in the report, it talks about K-15 separately.

Usually TSS is accurate on these things & he is calling this a K-15 launch

I am very conphused

http://www.firstpost.com/india/india-test-fires-k-5-ballistic-missile-from-underwater-603465.html

member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 27 Jan 2013 21:47

From the looks Shaurya and K 15 seems to be one and the same missile system.
Could hardly find any difference from their launch video


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests