Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 31 Jan 2013 13:14

indranilroy wrote:SNIP.........
Can they reuse SAMHO's guidance for a Krasnopol equivalent. The answer I think is a definite yes.



Even if the can't use it for a Krasnopol equivalent, no reason why the seeker tech cannot be re-used for a 125MM version of CLGM. Besides, this can serve as a stepping stone for the development of a Krasnopol, equivalent.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 31 Jan 2013 14:06

India’s K-15 launch and the dangers beyond
Even as New Delhi seeks deterrence stability against China, it realises that the latter’s nuclear arsenal looks beyond India to include US and Russia
By Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash
Published:January 30, 2013
http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists ... -1.1139370
The reason why nations place a significant part of their nuclear arsenals on board nuclear-propelled ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) is because of their invulnerability, in comparison with static air force bases and missile sites or even mobile launchers. Once at its patrol station, a few hundred metres underwater, the SSBN is considered safe from prying sensors, including satellites.
From this top-secret redoubt, her battery of ballistic missiles poses the threat of a devastating riposte to any adversary who may contemplate a nuclear first-strike.
In this context, the final launch of India’s K-15 submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM), marking successful completion of its development programme, is yet another feather in the cap of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). This event denotes the achievement of mastery over a sequence of esoteric technologies by Indian scientists. These include safe underwater ejection of the missile, ignition of its rocket-motor at the moment of breaking surface, control during its ballistic-trajectory and precise delivery of its payload over the target.
All that remains to be tested is how the K-15’s nuclear warhead will fare during its hypersonic flight and white-hot re-entry into the atmosphere; and the kind of explosive yield that its nuclear blast will deliver. However, the last bit may remain an unknown, in view of India’s self-imposed 1998 test-moratorium and the Comprehensive Test-Ban Treaty.

The primary aim of India’s no-first use (NFU) nuclear arsenal has always been to deter China from threatening it or attempting coercion with its powerful nuclear arsenal. It is for this reason that Indian scientists have steadfastly persevered, since the early 1980s, in their endeavours to produce a missile capable of delivering a sizeable nuclear warhead out to an inter-continental range of 5,000-8,000km. Their worthy efforts were crowned by success, with the successful test-firing of the Agni-V last year, and India can now claim to have an effective, land-based, nuclear deterrent against China.
An SSBN, being a vessel of immense strategic value, has to be deployed with care and secrecy in areas which are not frequented by shipping traffic. Their patrol stations are, therefore, chosen in remote parts of the ocean where they can loiter for months at a time, without fear of detection or interference. The obvious corollary is that their missile range must be adequate to reach adversary targets from safe waters. For example, the Chinese Jin-class SSBN is armed with the JL-2 SLBM, which has a range of 8,000km and can target both San Francisco and Kolkata from the South China Sea.
In this context, it becomes obvious that the 750km range of the K-15 is grossly insufficient for it to zero in on targets in mainland China from home waters. To be a truly effective third leg of the nuclear triad, an Indian nuclear submarine will have to await the delivery of an underwater launched missile of intercontinental range, so that it can threaten desired targets from safe patrol areas in the Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea.
However, it must be recognised that the American, Russian and Chinese navies had all followed a similar route before achieving SLBM capability of intercontinental range. Installed on board the soon-to-be-commissioned SSBN Arihant, there is no doubt the K-15 will serve as the most valuable stepping-stone and learning tool for more capable SLBMs that will follow.

Nuclear deterrence is all about sending the right signals to the adversary and there is a school of thought that Pakistan has already misinterpreted, inadvertently or deliberately, a number of Indian signals. The K-15 must not add to this list.
Even as India sought deterrence stability with respect to China, it clearly understood that the latter’s strategic calculus and nuclear arsenal looked well beyond India to include the US and Russia. It is a most regrettable aspect of sub-continental geopolitics that Pakistan has been unwilling to acknowledge that India’s arsenal, too, was predicated on factors other than Pakistan and has consistently sought to acquire parity with India.


Regardless of India’s true intentions in undertaking the Pokhran I nuclear test in May 1998, Islamabad jumped to the conclusion that India had embarked on a Pak-centric nuclear weapon programme and accelerated its own ongoing bomb project. The test of the liquid-fuelled, nuclear-capable 150km-range Prithvi missile in 1988 and that of the 1,500km-range Agni the following year confirmed Pakistan’s apprehensions that India’s nuclear capability was intended, not against China, but itself. The range of these missiles seemed to confirm this. India’s much publicised ballistic-missile defence programme, the launch of the Arihant and the maiden display of Agni V during the Republic Day parade may have all added to this paranoia. None of these developments are meant to be Pakistan-centric, but the induction of the 750km K-15 SLBM will certainly fuel the fears of Pakistan.

In a related context, since nuclear weapons have a large kill radius, accuracy is a relatively minor consideration for the delivery system — as long as the targeting strategy calls for counter-value attacks against cities, envisaged in the current Indian nuclear doctrine. However, the mention of single-digit accuracy’ by the DRDO chief in the K-15 context raises the spectre of ‘counter-force’ targeting and an entirely different ball game.

Pakistan’s nuclear ambitions have acquired such a desperate edge that its fissile plutonium production rate, from China-supplied reactors, will soon enable it to acquire one of the world’s largest warhead inventories. Apart from inducting cruise missiles, Pakistan has also stepped into the dangerous realm of tactical nuclear weaponry, and, there has been intriguing mention of Pakistan Navy’s Strategic Forces Command being the ‘custodian of the nation’s second-strike capability’.
With India’s scientists having done their job well, it is high time India’s national security experts and analysts step on to the strategic stage and, apart from considering the strategic context of the K-15, reflect on the state of mutual suspicion, rather than the actual needs of deterrence and stability that seem to be driving the growth of nuclear arsenals on the sub-continent.

{Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash is a former chief of the Indian Navy and former chairman, Chiefs-of-Staff Committee.}
— IANS

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 31 Jan 2013 17:56

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 273282.cms

BALASORE: For the second consecutive day, India's indigenously developed multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) weapon system, 'Pinaka' was successfully test fired today from a defence base at Chandipur-on-sea, about 15 km from here.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Boreas » 31 Jan 2013 19:24

Even as New Delhi seeks deterrence stability against China, it realises that the latter’s nuclear arsenal looks beyond India to include US and Russia
By Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash
Pakistan’s nuclear ambitions have acquired such a desperate edge that its fissile plutonium production rate, from China-supplied reactors, will soon enable it to acquire one of the world’s largest warhead inventories. Apart from inducting cruise missiles, Pakistan has also stepped into the dangerous realm of tactical nuclear weaponry, and, there has been intriguing mention of Pakistan Navy’s Strategic Forces Command being the ‘custodian of the nation’s second-strike capability’.
With India’s scientists having done their job well, it is high time India’s national security experts and analysts step on to the strategic stage and, apart from considering the strategic context of the K-15, reflect on the state of mutual suspicion, rather than the actual needs of deterrence and stability that seem to be driving the growth of nuclear arsenals on the sub-continent.

If it wasn't bunch of ball-less congressi dudes deciding future of this country, tsp would have been cornered into giving up its nuclear expansion plan long back. It is unparalleled in history that a country as unstable and as bankrupt as tsp is able to maintain and increase its warhead count and rest of the world is watching elsewhere.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Jan 2013 22:51

A few comments on Arun Prakash's article.

The B05 was tested to 700km full range in the hypersonic mode. This mode is to evade space surveillance assets. In ballistic mode it is capable of much greater range.

The pinpoint accuracy due to the maneuvering reentry vehicle makes up for the smaller tested yield of the Indian payloads. Ref US studies quoted in "Lighting Bolts" by William Yengst. So its not a first strike nor a counter force objective.
Thirdly the political nature of the challenger regime requires mixed strategy. A totalitarian regime requires to be physically threatened and pinpoint accuracy assures that.

And I wish he had commented on the importance of the Arihant with a Polaris class outload in range and number of vehicles.

The pinpoint accuracy in my opinion will provide similar destructive power as measured in total yield over square of CEP

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby hnair » 31 Jan 2013 23:08

I am curious at Admiral-saab's reference to Paki naval second-strike. Other than this article, not many people in India seem to talk about it much.

Gosh, pakistan as a state is like a two-day old roadkill teeming with maggots - one dont feel like going near it to examine closely and even if you do, the internals are completely mushed up to make any sense.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 31 Jan 2013 23:43

hnair wrote:I am curious at Admiral-saab's reference to Paki naval second-strike. Other than this article, not many people in India seem to talk about it much.

Gosh, pakistan as a state is like a two-day old roadkill teeming with maggots - one dont feel like going near it to examine closely and even if you do, the internals are completely mushed up to make any sense.

Event the west will be interested. If countries like Pak get these capabilities then countries like Israel will be sitting next to GHQ all the time.
Pak is unable to ensure loyal Pak military personal and staff and how can it ensure responsible CO who have second strike capability in their control

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 31 Jan 2013 23:45

^ That would be equal to creating a nuclear non-state actors

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_22872 » 01 Feb 2013 00:07

mention of Pakistan Navy’s Strategic Forces Command being the ‘custodian of the nation’s second-strike capability’.


These are tactical or strategic missiles? do they have any vessels which can carry these missiles in the first place?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 01 Feb 2013 03:43

Rumors are that they signed up for 6 Qing class subs from China with Gwadar and Maldives emerging as Chinese administered ports

Here is an article on defending from subsonic SLCM threat

SLCM defence is inherently dual pronged, and involves using LRMP (Long Range Maritime Patrol) aircraft, warships and submarines to engage the launch platform, and AEW&C, tankers and fighters to destroy any missiles which are launched. The range of the opposing SLCM type will critically determine the effectiveness of either prong in this model. A shorter ranging 160 NMI missile like the regional 3M-54/14 series forces the submarine into a relatively small zone surrounding the target, increasing opportunities for ASW forces to find and kill it, especially once it has fired its SLCMs off. Conversely, with a 450 KTAS SLCM cruise speed, aerial interception opportunities are compressed into a 20 minute time window, making the odds of successful missile strikes greater.

A 400 to 650 NMI range class SLCM frustrates ASW operations as the footprint to be patrolled increases with the square of missile range, but it also much increases opportunities for aerial interception by tripling if not quadrupling SLCM flight duration over water.

The conventional force structure model used for defeating SLCMs is inherently expensive - 24/7 ASW patrols using aircraft and naval assets must be combined with 24/7 AEW&C, tanker and fighter patrols. While ground alert interceptors are an option, the ten minutes required to get them airborne on station reduces available time to effect engagements against the inbound SLCMs. Supersonic climb-out and sustained dash would minimise the time to station, but this is not an option for F/A-18A and JSF.

The biggest cost burden in defending against SLCMs lies in the need for concurrent airborne patrols using LRMP aircraft and AEW&C aircraft, effectively doubling up on the required airborne ISR component of the defending force. This is a byproduct of the niche specialisation of these systems.

LRMP aircraft on station searching for submarines being positioned for launches present an opportunity to free up AEW&C aircraft for other tasks - if the LRMP aircraft is equipped with radar/datalink capability to cue interceptors to SLCMs in flight. Existing search radars on LRMP aircraft have neither the power-aperture performance nor azimuthal coverage to be credible in this role. A viable radar for this role is an X-band active phased array in the class of the MT-RTIP family of radars planned for the E-8 JSTARS upgrade, the E-10 MC2A and growth Global Hawk variants. These radars will be used by the US Air Force for cruise missile defence, mobile ground target tracking, and likely by the US Navy for the BAMS maritime search role on UAVs - the Global Hawk being a leading candidate.

An LRMP aircraft equipped with such a radar acquires an inherent capability to detect and track SLCMs, in addition to gaining improved ASW and ASuW surface search capabilities, and JSTARS-like littoral GMTI search capabilities. This is an important synergy in functions which should not be ignored. Supplementary AEW&C capability for naval surface action groups, and over the horizon midcourse guidance and illumination for shipboard SAMs are also feasible.

While SLCMs lack the sustainable rate of fire, and achievable weight of fire of air launched cruise missiles, they do present a complex equation for a defender.


In a second strike scenario, the SLCM range required will be 1500 to 3000kms hence cj-10 cruise missiles with strategic warheads, paint job and title from Pakis and Chinese control. This cooperation for 2nd strike solely aimed at India frees up Chinese SSBNs back to their original tasking.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_22872 » 01 Feb 2013 04:23

Indian salvation then lies in Baluchistan and Tibet.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 01 Feb 2013 23:07

Kanson wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Can they reuse SAMHO's guidance for a Krasnopol equivalent. The answer I think is a definite yes.


I doubt...

indranilroy wrote:Why?

I think, the dynamics involved in the shell will be atleast marginally different from that of missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 01 Feb 2013 23:16

Boreas wrote:If it wasn't bunch of ball-less congressi dudes deciding future of this country, tsp would have been cornered into giving up its nuclear expansion plan long back. It is unparalleled in history that a country as unstable and as bankrupt as tsp is able to maintain and increase its warhead count and rest of the world is watching elsewhere.

If you are aware of Indian/Bharat history, you wouldn't have to let loose your feelings like this. :wink: :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 01 Feb 2013 23:23

In a related context, since nuclear weapons have a large kill radius, accuracy is a relatively minor consideration for the delivery system — as long as the targeting strategy calls for counter-value attacks against cities, envisaged in the current Indian nuclear doctrine. However, the mention of single-digit accuracy’ by the DRDO chief in the K-15 context raises the spectre of ‘counter-force’ targeting and an entirely different ball game.


A very rare acknowledgement of what is obvious to some of us for quite sometime. Don't expect any thing more than the current acknowledgement on the potential we are seeking because the topic is sensitive.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Feb 2013 23:30

counterforce changes option from 2nd strike to 1st strike... maybe pak can be forced to play prisoner's dilemma whilst still being an irrational player...?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 01 Feb 2013 23:34

For the first strike, volume/quantity counts. We have to join the treaty! but as said, the topic is best kept below the radar., till those levels are attained.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 02 Feb 2013 08:57

x Post from multi-media thread...

NDTV seems to have a pulled a coup of sort... a different view of the B-05 missile test from the observation ship..shows the jubilation of DRDO folks .....!!

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /263753?hp

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Feb 2013 09:52

A short synopsis please. Looks like Pallav Baghala got a ring side view of the pontoon launch and the systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 02 Feb 2013 10:00

Prithwiraj wrote:x Post from multi-media thread...

NDTV seems to have a pulled a coup of sort... a different view of the B-05 missile test from the observation ship..shows the jubilation of DRDO folks .....!!

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /263753?hp


At 10:30, says it was called "Dhanush" also. So was B-05 being tested everytime we heard Dhanush and assumed naval version of Prithvi ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 02 Feb 2013 10:02

Pallav Baghala and the cameraman were the only journalist invited on the observ. Ship.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 02 Feb 2013 10:34

Overall it was a nice brief... but editing and narration can be more truthful... too much of irrelevant stock footage including that of foxtrot class museum sub while talking about INS Arihant was totally unnecessary...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 02 Feb 2013 11:06

a question, the title of NDTV video says it has B'O'-5 not B-05, is it a typo ??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 02 Feb 2013 11:15

Baghala was calling it like that...Rajeev Ranjan is better...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Feb 2013 11:20

Twenty minutes of a flashing exclusive sign. Loved that.

It is amazing really, to see so many ethnic groups all working to one goal and all celebrating. India is doing something right and I don't mean just the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 02 Feb 2013 11:21

Ok...so more like how americans pronounce it...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 02 Feb 2013 11:25

standard routine is that attention to detail is missing in our culture, when we do that all those projects are huge success. The DRDO paid attention to every detail but NDTV can do it even though they were exclusive thats yehi to maar kha gaya hindustan

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 02 Feb 2013 11:50

ethnic groups?

I see only one ethnic group - Indian.

Speaking only one language - Indian.

And if anybody here with ideas of "rakshaking" India hasn't got that down straight should seriously consider doing something else.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Feb 2013 11:59

Hehe can't seem to recognize phenotypes among humans. Or are they all aryans. Sometimes common sense should be allowed to triumph over political constructs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 02 Feb 2013 12:03

Don't get smart on me.

unwarranted mention of "ethnicities", another unwarranted reference to "aryans". and hinting at "political constructs" when discussing Indianness.

Hmm. The only phenotype I recognize in you is Pakiness.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Feb 2013 12:11

So be it. Great swami. You certainly know better than I.

I don't like useless and meaningless interaction- be content in your beliefs, no skin of my nose.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 02 Feb 2013 12:17

no skin of my nose.


At least not yet. not yet.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 02 Feb 2013 17:36

D Roy wrote:ethnic groups?

I see only one ethnic group - Indian.

Speaking only one language - Indian.

And if anybody here with ideas of "rakshaking" India hasn't got that down straight should seriously consider doing something else.


Really... ? I tend to agree that different ethnic groups working together towards a common goal is fantastic... a bong director trying hopelessly with funny hindi .. was the icing on the cake... we all Indian all right...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 02 Feb 2013 18:16

Yes really.

Their peer affiliation - a common techno-scientific endeavour for India's strategic security.

Their macro affiliation - Indian.

Their *really* isn't any need or scope for identifying any other "ethnic markers" in that event.

And if you are indeed an Indian you will understand this standpoint and not regard it as a counterpoint to the unity in diversity argument.

It is time the Indian grew out of the British taxonomical agenda.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 02 Feb 2013 18:21

D Roy wrote:Yes really.

Their peer affiliation - a common techno-scientific endeavour for India's strategic security.

Their macro affiliation - Indian.

Their *really* isn't any need or scope for identifying any other "ethnic markers" in that event.

And if you are indeed an Indian you will understand this standpoint and not regard it as a counterpoint to the unity in diversity argument.

It is time the Indian grew out of the British anthropological mindset on every issue.


Sorry cant agree with you .. I have enough example of parochial favoritism within scientific communities in India. I don't want to list down the examples here but will respectfully disagree with your notion.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 02 Feb 2013 18:31

Prithwiraj wrote:x Post from multi-media thread...

NDTV seems to have a pulled a coup of sort... a different view of the B-05 missile test from the observation ship..shows the jubilation of DRDO folks .....!!

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /263753?hp


Look carefully at the video and you can actually ID The vessel.. Didn't take more then a couple of min to figure out that a desi company was contracted for this job. :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 02 Feb 2013 18:45

pushkar.bhat wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:x Post from multi-media thread...

NDTV seems to have a pulled a coup of sort... a different view of the B-05 missile test from the observation ship..shows the jubilation of DRDO folks .....!!

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /263753?hp


Look carefully at the video and you can actually ID The vessel.. Didn't take more then a couple of min to figure out that a desi company was contracted for this job. :)


yes.. I noticed that too.. !! :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 02 Feb 2013 21:25

What is the intentionally blurred thing in the video between 0:25-0:28?

Another pooch was what was so special in this test which caused such amount of jubilation and tears in the eyes of the Project Director, given that this was actually the 12th successful launch? What was special in this test compared to earlier 11?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Feb 2013 22:19

Its the last pontoon flight. its now ready for vessel integration. A milestone has been crossed. The next tests are vessel and vehicle integration. If the pontoon is a true replica that next step is a formality. By doing the pontoon tests they reduced the risk of underwater launch to negligible.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 Feb 2013 22:39

interesting operation name pointing to accuracy

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 03 Feb 2013 00:30

sum wrote:What is the intentionally blurred thing in the video between 0:25-0:28?

Another pooch was what was so special in this test which caused such amount of jubilation and tears in the eyes of the Project Director, given that this was actually the 12th successful launch? What was special in this test compared to earlier 11?


Ohh. That will be the other vessel that delivered the package to the pontoon.. Zimble Sir..


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