Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 27 Jun 2013 14:07

ramana wrote:Kersi,
AS-20 was to be license produced at BDL. AS-30 was finally bought for Mirages.

Glad you recall something of those days.


AS 20 / AS 30 / Martel

I have been hearing about IAF having these ASMs since past few years/decades. But I have not yet seen a single pic of these ASMs, relating to IAF. Usually when a system has been is use for quite some time, it appears on the Republic Day parade. Till date I have seen only AS 7 and Sea Eagle displayed during Republic Day parade. AS 7 was supposed to be used with MiG 23BN / MiG 27ML. But when I have spoken to a couple of pilots of MiG 23BN / MiG 27ML they seem to know nothing about AS 7 !!!!

Information (or the lack) on the ASMs of IAF hase ben my per peeve ever since I joined BR, long long long time ago.

Only recently have we seen some pics of Kh 31 and Kh 59, with SU 30.

I understand, form reliable sources (i.e. my mother-in-law's second cousin's third wife's fourth brother-in-law's paan wallah's milk supplier's servant's brother;s .................) that IAF uses the Israeli Spice on Mirages.

Just for info : talk with any IAF man of SU 30 or Mirages, start talking about ASMs, he clams up tight and immediately!!

Wud be happy to enlighten myself on this topic

K

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 27 Jun 2013 15:35

PAC-3 has already demonstrated the capability to intercept high speed targets flying at low altitudes so no reason why S-300 can't do the same, the question is more of being able to detect the missile in urban scenario and the reaction time.[/quote]

Indeed however Brahmos is very different, the terminal altitude can be as low 10m-1m and the missile is travelling at mach 3 while maneuvering so at this altitude there is nothing out there that could intercept it. However, at high altitude of 15 km, it should be fairly easy game for s-300, patriot etc in a straight line. as long its not maneuvering.

Brahmos is not a stealth missile in the pure sense, at high altitude its thermal and radar signatures will register in most new gen radars, however at low altitude and cleverly set waypoints through valleys and mountains it can probably even slip through the latest Thales Raytheon Low level radars.

Brahmos can fly its entire mission at low level out to a reported 40% of existing reported range of 300km i.e 120km. However, since the true range of the brahmos is more like 500 this number should be about 200 km which is more than enough for most targets without being detected. A brahmos strike in early days of war will almost always be a surprise devastating shot at critical targets that are very well defended.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Jun 2013 20:14

Mehra saab told us the French maal is for special targets and is thus classified. ASMs are even more so.

My guess is some of them have special payloads.

Even in Kargil only jugaad LGBs were used.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2013 20:17

er sire the AS30L is a short range laser guided missile used to strike hard targets.
it would have no role as a special payload missile.

The missile has a range of 3 to 11 kilometers, carries a 240 kilogram warhead, and claims a 1-meter CEP with either airborne or ground-based laser designators.

The AS-30L was deployed by French SEPECAT Jaguar aircraft during Operation Desert Storm in Iraq and Operation Deliberate Force in Bosnia, with roughly 60 missiles being launched. It was proven highly effective and accurate, with a claimed hit rate of 97%.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Jun 2013 20:22

Paydirt. The doyens of IGMP have written two papers here!!!!

DSJ May 2013 Issue

papers 1 and 4

Re Paper 1, Its amazing that such senior people do such fundamental papers while still working on program management.
Am very familair with ref 15 in that paper.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Jun 2013 20:49

DSJ archives:

1995 papers on Nag technology

Propulsion sytem for ATGM

Focal Plane Array for IIR sensor for ATGM

Recent advances in ATGMs

Gives systems aspects

Kalam Lecture

Future Operational Scenarios for ATGMs
-------------
Those Nag articles give an idea of how complex it is and why so many tests.
But by now ~18 years after they were published it should have been ready.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2285
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 28 Jun 2013 03:39

Septimus P. wrote:Indeed however Brahmos is very different, the terminal altitude can be as low 10m-1m and the missile is travelling at mach 3 while maneuvering so at this altitude there is nothing out there that could intercept it. However, at high altitude of 15 km, it should be fairly easy game for s-300, patriot etc in a straight line. as long its not maneuvering.

The terminal maneuvering and low altitude is primarily intended for naval targets, unless you are hitting in installation in middle of dessert or targets in coast line it is not the same when it comes to engaging land targets. The SAM system could be located anywhere in flight path of brahmos as F-117 found out in Kosovo, so yes it might be useful for Brahmos to evade a Air defense systems but there is much greater probability that it would be intercepted way before that.

chiragAS
BRFite
Posts: 169
Joined: 16 Nov 2006 10:09
Location: INDIA
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chiragAS » 28 Jun 2013 11:37

ramana wrote:Paydirt. The doyens of IGMP have written two papers here!!!!

DSJ May 2013 Issue

papers 1 and 4

Re Paper 1, Its amazing that such senior people do such fundamental papers while still working on program management.
Am very familair with ref 15 in that paper.


Ramana, though these papers are published even outside desh, Don't you think there should be some kind of authentication system so that these are availble to Only SDRE students/scientists etc. don't understand why DRDO put it online for all, why make it avilable to TSP theives. though i am well aware all these would be first scrutnized by DRDO before they put up online, still any information is a tresaure trove to TSP. every drop helps them considering their current state of affairs.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 28 Jun 2013 12:18

True.

Its a double edged sword. They want their citation index (quoted in DSJ) to go up & solicit good quality contributions from other scientists, plus showcase what DRDO is doing. If they don't do this, they get accused of being lotus eaters and time wasters.
Note, the explicit reference to Trishul guidance problem being resolved was noted in DSJ. Since DRDO lacks an effective PR mechanism, even these help in putting motivated detractors in their place.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5241
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 28 Jun 2013 18:50

BK on his blog.

France loading ASMP-A on Rafale

Now what do we hear? There’s tantalizing talk of France offering, as sweetener for the Rafale MMRCA deal still hanging fire, the Air-launched ASMP-A (Air-Sol Moyenne Portee) cruise missile. The twin objective could also be to displace the Brahmos with the argument that ASMP-A at one ton weight can be carried by MiG-21 (but these are being quickly wasted out of IAF) and even the Tejas LCA (which is simply not possible). Besides, as those in the know point out, the Brahmos may be heavier at 3-ton weight but in no other parameter is it outperformed by the ASMP-A. For instance, the French item can go supersonic in only certain flight regimes (such as high altitudes). The ASMP-A, it may be noted, has also been offered to China. Great business this — make oodles of money arming all sides against each other! But the ASMP-A riding on Rafale is a sign of desperation. But also a means for the entire $22 billion deal to go down easier. Well placed sources particularly refer to the fact of the French having paid up, ahem!, the “commissions” to every one up and down the Indian system starting at the political apex, and expect the beneficiaries will now do their bit.

The ASMP-A offer encompasses the larger issue of foreign arms suppliers doing every thing in their power to kill off indigenous projects –in this case the highly regarded Brahmos made in collaboration with Russians, and the even more local DRDO programme for “hypersonic” cruise missile with the platypus nose which’s coming along nicely and, many knowledgeable people say, will add an additional 200 kms to MIRVed nuclear warheads as glide bombs on A-5 and the coming A-6.


More on ASMP-A, Brahmos, HCM MIRV-ed warheads

Missed a zero! With hypersonic cruise glide MIRVed warheads (not glide-bombs) on A-5 and successor A-6, the range actually is increased by 2000-3000 kms (not 200 kms as mentioned in my previous blog on the subject). So, an 8000 km A-5 becomes a near ICBM with 11000 km range (tho’, strictly speaking, 12000 kms range defines ICBM).

Further on ASMP-A, it can go supersonic at low altitude but isn’t maneuverable at these heights because its MiG-25-type air-intakes would be pulled sunder. At tree-top height it, in fact, becomes a “dumb bullet” that a mobile target can avoid, rendering ASMP-A vulnerable to interception. Brahmos, on the other hand, can pull an S-maneuver at very low altitudes. This was proved in the 2nd Brahmos test in the desert, destroying a target 20 kms away with pinpoint accuracy after relying on the Russian Glonass GPS. (The first Brahmos test failed, it may be recalled, because the US GPS it was using to cue to target “blinked” at a crucial moment in time in its flight path.)

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2013 20:27

I see he is talking to some of our ex-members. Glide RVs are his insight!

The real game changer is the Arihant class with K4 operating in Southern Indian Ocean to stay out of range of PRC search forces.

I dont understand how ASMP will kill Brahmos-2 for they are different class of vehicles. And if provided it will give IAF more flexibility and even better break the four-letter pacts and treaties.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2013 20:30

Chirag and Karan M, The DSJ provides a vehicle for them to show case their skills. And gives the outsiders a benchmark. It all adds to credibility. BTW what is published is most likely a smattering of what has been achieved but is enough to reveal just like the splashdown pictures.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2285
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 29 Jun 2013 08:04

ShauryaT wrote:Further on ASMP-A, it can go supersonic at low altitude but isn’t maneuverable at these heights because its MiG-25-type air-intakes would be pulled sunder. At tree-top height it, in fact, becomes a “dumb bullet” that a mobile target can avoid, rendering ASMP-A vulnerable to interception. Brahmos, on the other hand, can pull an S-maneuver at very low altitudes. This was proved in the 2nd Brahmos test in the desert, destroying a target 20 kms away with pinpoint accuracy after relying on the Russian Glonass GPS. (The first Brahmos test failed, it may be recalled, because the US GPS it was using to cue to target “blinked” at a crucial moment in time in its flight path.)


Can't speak about Brahmos but Yakhont supposedly flies below mach 2 speed when performing those maneuvers so they come at a cost.

As i mentioned earlier against land based targets it is not that effective since you already over flying enemy air defenses' most of your flight duration, performing maneuvers at what is not even 5% of over flight duration is not going to save the missile if the enemy hasn't already done so. Tomahawks for example can perform maneuvers through it's flight path.

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 29 Jun 2013 11:15

Playing ping-pong with the words..
So they have postponed the Canister launch test?

Agni-V to be tested twice this year, could be inducted by 2015
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Jun 29, 2013, 04.53 AM IST
NEW DELHI: India's most formidable strategic missile, the over 5,000-km Agni-V, will be tested twice before this year ends to ensure it is ready for full-scale induction in the armed forces towards end-2015.

Interestingly, the latter [should be read later ?] of the two tests will see the 50-tonne Agni-V being fired from a hermetically-sealed canister mounted on a launcher truck. A canister-launch system will give the forces the requisite operational flexibility to swiftly transport the ballistic missile and launch it from a place of their choosing. Consequently, the highly road-mobile Agni-V will be able to hit even the northernmost part of China if fired from close to the Line of Actual Control.

"We are getting ready for two more tests of the three-stage Agni-V this year, which will include the canister-launch trial. Our aim is to make the missile ready for induction in two years," said new DRDO chief Avinash Chander, talking exclusively to TOI.

Similar plans are underway to make the two-stage Agni-IV, with a 3,500-km strike range, ready for induction by end-2014. The armed forces have already inducted the Pakistan-specific Agni-I (700-km) and Agni-II (over 2,000-km) as well as the 3,000-km Agni-III.

The Agni-IV and Agni-V missiles, however, are in a different class with "much higher accuracy and kill efficiencies" to give teeth to the minimum credible deterrence posture against China. With a massive nuclear arsenal and missiles like the 11,200-km Dong Feng-31A capable of hitting any Indian city, Beijing is leagues ahead of New Delhi.

DRDO, however, remains unfazed. Work is in progress to make the solid-fuelled Agni-IV and Agni-V, the latter virtually an intercontinental ballistic missile, even more lethal.

"After these two missiles are inducted, the two major focus areas will be maneuvering warheads or re-entry vehicles to defeat enemy ballistic missile defence systems and MIRVs (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles)," Chander said.

An MIRV payload implies a single missile carrying several nuclear warheads, each programmed to hit different targets. "But there is no Agni-VI programme as of now. We are working on enabling technologies and capabilities... we will come to the Agni-VI programme, if required, later," he said.

But is DRDO being too optimistic about the Agni-IV and Agni-V induction schedules, given that both have been tested only once till now? "No, we require just six to seven trials. We are no longer in the age when a large number of trials are required," said Chander, a missile scientist who was the overall head of the expansive Agni programme earlier.

"These surface-to-surface missiles have well-defined (parabolic) trajectories, unlike say air-to-air missiles. We conduct thousands of tests through modeling and simulation in our labs under different conditions. The actual flight trials are to validate what is predicted in simulation tests, match the algorithms," he added.

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5095
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jamwal » 29 Jun 2013 11:39

Agni IV will be inducted by the end of 2014 ? Isn't it too slow ?

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_26965 » 29 Jun 2013 11:43

jamwal wrote:Agni IV will be inducted by the end of 2014 ? Isn't it too slow ?


Bench marked against what?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Jun 2013 20:51

Those six to seven trials all have to be successful. If you plot them on probabiliy paper after that it gives high confidence. at same time many ground tests of components has to be done on regualr basis to uncover any production anomalies.

jaladipc
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 20:51
Location: i CAN ADA

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 30 Jun 2013 06:06

Heya Folks..

Good to be back after a long hibernation :D

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 30 Jun 2013 15:11

Prithvi missiles to be replaced by more-capable Prahar: DRDO

Seeking to enhance its precision strike capabilities, India is planning to replace its 150 km-range Prithvi ballistic missiles with the newly developed quick reaction Prahar missiles.

"We are withdrawing the tactical 150 km-range Prithvi missiles and will replace them with the Prahar missiles, which are more capable and have more accuracy," DRDO chief Avinash Chander told PTI in new Delhi.

The tactical versions of the Prithvi missiles would be withdrawn from service and will be upgraded to be used for longer ranges, he said.

The DRDO chief said after the withdrawal of the tactical ballistic missiles from service, there would be a gap in strike capabilities in the range of 100 to 150 km-range.

"The Prahar missile would be used to fill up that gap," he said.


The 150 km-range 'Prahar' is a single-stage missile and is fuelled by solid propellants. It was first test-fired by DRDO in mid-2011 from its range in Odisha.

The uniqueness of the missile system is that it can be fired in the salvo mode also from one launcher vehicle in which four missiles can be fired in one go.

This short-range missile would be an 'excellent weapon' which would fill the gap between the 90 km-range of the Smerch multi-barrel rocket launchers and guided missiles like 'Prithvi', which can strike at 250 km to 350 km range.

The under-development Prahar missile would be offered to the Army for user trials very soon and after its acceptance, it is planned to be part of its Corps of Artillery.

The Prithvi missiles were developed by India under its Integrated Missile Development Programme in the 1980s. The ballistic missile was developed with multiple strike ranges from 150 km to 350 km.

The longer ranges are planned to be in service with both the Army and the IAF.

Brando
BRFite
Posts: 675
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 06:18

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Brando » 30 Jun 2013 15:56

Why replace these tactical missiles ? Instead having both will give the Army to flexibility to use Prahar AND Prithvi for different tasks, utilizing the warhead size of the Prithvi and the precision of the Prahar optimally. While Prahar may be technologically superior, does the cost required to refurbishing these Prithvi missiles justify their replacement ? Also what is the cost differential between Prithvi and Prahar in this range - which is cheaper to use and operate/maintain ? After all the Army and AF already have 250-350 km Prithvi brigades to meet their capacities, would it make sense to transfer those 150 km Prithvi missiles ?

Till the Prahar missile system becomes as robust and as sophisticated as the Iskander system with the kind of countermeasures and ABM defeating decoys available - reducing the number of tactical missiles is unwise, especially when it involves the cost of training, refurbishment etc.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_26965 » 30 Jun 2013 16:29

The Prithvi's are not going to be removed with immediate effect. The older airframe's built under 1st lot have not just exhausted their life span but also are initial technology. P 1 and P 2 are really old. They use the corrosive liquid propellants. The liquid storage capability has improved and by 2015 the first unit produced would have completed 30 years with it. The targeting is also initial generation.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23779
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 30 Jun 2013 17:22

It looks like, from the wording of Dr. Avinash Chander ("The Prahaar missile would be used to fill that gap"), that the Prithvi-150 missiles are anyway being withdrawn. Were they withdarwn as part of CBM because a few years back, there was a focus on these missiles in Track-II ?

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2598
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 30 Jun 2013 18:45

The uniqueness of the missile system is that it can be fired in the salvo mode also from one launcher vehicle in which four missiles can be fired in one go.

The TELs displayed earlier had 6 missiles not 4(if that's what he meant). This might mean a lighter carrier. The earlier one was a 12 wheel monstrosity.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2285
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 30 Jun 2013 18:50

Brando wrote:Till the Prahar missile system becomes as robust and as sophisticated as the Iskander system with the kind of countermeasures and ABM defeating decoys available - reducing the number of tactical missiles is unwise, especially when it involves the cost of training, refurbishment etc.

Prahar is not a TBM like Islander, russian equivalent to Prahar is Tornado-S MLRS.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4304
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jun 2013 18:51

From 1000 kilogram payload carrying capability of Prithvi to 300kg. warhead of Prahaar would be a major downgrade in capabilities.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23779
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 30 Jun 2013 19:20

Manish_Sharma, if the earliest 150 Km range Prithvis are being replaced by Prahaar, we will be gaining not losing in capabilities.

jaladipc
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 20:51
Location: i CAN ADA

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 30 Jun 2013 19:40

Manish_Sharma wrote:From 1000 kilogram payload carrying capability of Prithvi to 300kg. warhead of Prahaar would be a major downgrade in capabilities.



Do count the 6 prahaars on each TEL(1800kg total warhead) in a ready to fire condition instead of a one prithvi that needs to be ready to fire with 1000kg.

A battery of Prahaars with same range as prithvis (150km) offer more flexibility against the same battery of prithvis.

Also, once goes into production, a prahaar will cost much less due to 90% or more commonality with AAD. It brings the cost of both systems down since we are looking at producing 1000`s of AAD to cover all major cities in the long term.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5241
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Jun 2013 19:45

SSridhar wrote:It looks like, from the wording of Dr. Avinash Chander ("The Prahaar missile would be used to fill that gap"), that the Prithvi-150 missiles are anyway being withdrawn. Were they withdarwn as part of CBM because a few years back, there was a focus on these missiles in Track-II ?
No, that is a separate issue. The statement says only "tactical" Prithvis would be withdrawn. It will also provide clarity as Prithvi and Prahaar would clearly go to separate deployment groups based on role. I guess we still have dual use Prithvis in the 250-350 KM range, so the matter of clarity between tactical and strategic missiles is not entirely clear. But, this is a step in the right direction.

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 30 Jun 2013 19:54

Manish_Sharma wrote:From 1000 kilogram payload carrying capability of Prithvi to 300kg. warhead of Prahaar would be a major downgrade in capabilities.


Note that the Prahaar missiles are much more accurate than the Prithvi missiles that they would replace. The higher payload may have been there to offset less accuracy but with more accurate Prahaars a higher payload capability won't be needed. Also isn't it obvious that DRDO will upgrade capability rather than downgrading them.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2013 20:32

SS I had mentioned that operationalizing the Prahaar would mean Cold Start is getting teeth.

Prithivi due to its dual capability would be destablising i.e. the challenger wouldn't know what is incoming and might be tempted to launch on warning. Now Prahaar is a conventional only and with a payload less than know weight of Indian nukes. So can't be mistaken for a nuke strike.

At same time it gives the Army flexibility for upto 200 km of Forward Edge of Battle Area (FEBA). Brings it on par with US Army with its ATACMs and a payload suitable for Indian conditions.


Note the Western expert embedded in IDSA was arguing against Prahaar deployment just recently!
So Jai Ho!!!!.

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 30 Jun 2013 22:14

Does it mean that
Prithvi with non nuclear warhead will be withdrawn and replaced with Prahaar
Prithvi with nuclear warhead will be retained

K

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Katare » 30 Jun 2013 22:41

A chander clearly states that prathvis will be upgraded to higher ranges and prahar inducted in their place for conventional attack purposes. There is no withdrawal of fores only augmentation and rearrengement to add more teeths and flexibility.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 30 Jun 2013 23:48

With 4 nos, seems like Prahar would be carried on the same TEL as the Prithvi so can use the same hardened shelters. And it is counter force for Nasr sort of MBRL.

Dharma R wrote:Also, once goes into production, a prahaar will cost much less due to 90% or more commonality with AAD. It brings the cost of both systems down since we are looking at producing 1000`s of AAD to cover all major cities in the long term.


if what you say is true, is it inside info? haven't seen open source reports on this.

The inventories of missiles are limited in TSP and China, they can only target so many, why should we then be ringing all our cities with so many AAD missiles? if a place like Uttarakhand is hit, say due its religious significance, the casualties could be in the same range as seen in the recent floods. Had a chat with Karan M on the need for better coverage of BMD across the Indian region, hence the possibility of air launching AAD vs just ground based.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11202
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 01 Jul 2013 01:17

Prahaar needs to be bulk produced and deployed. Also increased range with a higher payload version (2 per TEL like the Iskander) needs to be deployed)
Me thinks that the reason why Avinash Chander talks about a salvo of 4 is because that now equals the payload of a Prithvi (1200Kg for 4 Prahaars vs 1000 kg for the Prithvi), in case some DDM starts crying about loss of payload capability.

4 highly accurate, quick reaction, fast moving missiles are more lethal than a bigger, stouter slower moving missile with older gen guidance tech.

PS: The Nasr is a useless bit of hot air by the Pakis. That thing is a conventional MBRL. The Pakistanis don't have the capability to design, build and deploy a full sized nuclear bomb, can't expect these goat molesters to have the capability to miniaturize one. I don't think that the Chinese will ever transfer anything miniaturized to these Jihadis - there will be a 400% risk of a miniaturized bum ending up in a cheeni city tomorrow.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11202
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 01 Jul 2013 01:23

Another thing. Pakistan has buried undergound in Bunkers a lot of important mil hardware at around the 200-500 Km range from India's borders. Need to have mass produced bunker buster warhead laden missiles to take out these mil targets.
Would be wonderful if India would have the capability to launch a massive salvo to take these out in the initial 2-3 hours onlee.
Total big targets are 100-200 onlee.
No need to waste precious airforce onlee for these.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23779
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jul 2013 06:24

ramana wrote:SS I had mentioned that operationalizing the Prahaar would mean Cold Start is getting teeth.

Prithivi due to its dual capability would be destablising

Yes Ramana, agreed.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23779
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jul 2013 06:32

Long-delayed Astra will finally be test fired - ToI
India's first air-to-air Astra missile is finally back on track now after an excruciatingly long delay due to technical glitches. The beyond visual range (BVR) missile, with an eventual strike range of over 100km, will be fired for the first time from a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter this year.

DRDO chief Avinash Chander candidly admits there are major technical problems in development of the Astra BVR missile, which sometimes pose bigger challenges than even nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. "The missile was repeatedly failing since the aerodynamically controlled interactions were very severe," he told TOI.

"Finally, we changed the entire missile configuration {that was the December 2012 triple tests}. It has now undergone three successful ground trials. It then underwent captive flight trials in a Sukhoi-30MKI this April. We are over the hump now. We hope to actually fire it from a Sukhoi-30MKI by year-end," said Chander.

With these "developmental flight trials" slated to soon kick off, which will involve a battery of tests covering the entire flight envelope, the aim is to make Astra ready for induction by mid-2015 "if there are no further surprises", added the DRDO chief.

Astra will have a Mark-I version with a 44-km range, which will be followed by the over 100km Mark-II version. "Astra will be a state-of-the-art missile that will first be fitted on Sukhoi-30MKIs and then Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, followed by others. We are pretty confident it will happen soon," said Chander.

Astra has had a chequered history. Long in the making, with its prototypes even being tested earlier, the Astra project was finally officially sanctioned in March 2004 at an initial cost of Rs 955 crore. But deadlines and project completion dates have long fallen by the wayside.

Consequently, IAF continues to import expensive missiles like the Israeli Derby, Russian AA-12 Adder, French MICA and Matra Super 530D for its combat aircraft fleet. Incidentally, Pakistan too has been buying large quantities of air-to-air missiles like the AMRAAM and AIM-9M Sidewinder from the US.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_26965 » 01 Jul 2013 07:20

ShauryaT wrote:No, that is a separate issue. The statement says only "tactical" Prithvis would be withdrawn. It will also provide clarity as Prithvi and Prahaar would clearly go to separate deployment groups based on role. I guess we still have dual use Prithvis in the 250-350 KM range, so the matter of clarity between tactical and strategic missiles is not entirely clear. But, this is a step in the right direction.


Prithvi's are nuclear capable if that is the meaning of being strategic. Here I suspect that DRDO chief is referring to distance being tactical or strategic. A SRM is normally tactical in nature. So DRDO chief is not clearly telling us if Prithvi's will use nukes or not.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7717
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 01 Jul 2013 09:51

ramana wrote:SS I had mentioned that operationalizing the Prahaar woul dmena Cold Start is getting teeth.

Prithivi due to its dual capability would be destablising ie the challenger wouldn't know what is incoming and might be tempted to launch on warning. Now Prahaar is a conventional only and with a payload less than know weight of Indian nukes. So cant be mistaken for a nuke strike.

At same time it gives the Army flexibility for upto 200 km of Forward Edge of Battle Area (FEBA). Brings it on par with US Army with its ATACMs and a payload suitable for Indian conditions.


Note the Western expert embedded in IDSA was arguing against Prahaar deployment just recently!
So Jai Ho!!!!.


Well said.

As I said sometime back during analysis of Indian Artillery Divisions, Prahaar will most probably fill up the Composite Missile Brigade in each of three artillery divisions.

We've raised third Brahmos Regiment @ one for each arty division and Prahaar Missile Regiments will complement Brahmos missiles. I've always maintained that contrary to popular perception, it is my understanding that Prithvi Missile Regiments were never part of Arty Divisions - they are under SFC. And meant for strategic role(s).

So, between Pinaka+Smerch+Prahaar+Brahmos, IA field formations (Corps and Command HQ) will have capability to cover the entire battlefield in depth. It will reduce the dependence on IAF to a great extent.

Gentlemen, welcome to the world of "Maneuver by Firepower".

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7717
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 01 Jul 2013 12:23

pandyan wrote:^^^ Saars - how much of this would be applicable on the easterner border? I do wish similar coverage is available on eastern side too to maintain peace, to preserve nature and human rights


IIRC, an artillery division has been sanctioned for Eastern Command. So, should see the missile appearing in that theater as well.


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests