Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2013 20:30

SagarG, Most articles on Indian defence matters are badly written:poor language, poor sentence construction and very pedantic. They use passive voice to convey information when it requires active voice.

They are written by English minors with agendas! Maybe they get paid by number of words?
Tried to encourage ChackoJ to learn to write here but he turned out to be from same pool.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Sep 2013 20:46

That's unfair to Chacko ramanaji. He had differences with some members and admins perhaps, but his articles were generally more credible than the farticles by sawheny.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Sep 2013 20:46

The other issue refers to Agni-5 navigation system. All DRDO ballistic missiles (the Agni series, Prithvi variants, Shaurya, Prahar, ABM interceptors, K-15 and K-4) as well as the BrahMos joint-venture cruise missile (interestingly, the BrahMos’ propulsion or rocket is Russia’s contribution to the system) use a strap-down Inertial Navigation System. As the name implies, the navigation system is strapped to the body of the missile itself. Given the technology improvements, the world over, strap-down is the popular INS used in aeroplanes and short range ballistic missiles alike as it is both cheap and easy to fabricate.

The exception are long-range ballistic missiles starting with 3,000km onwards which prefer to use a gimballed INS, which is both expensive and extremely difficult to engineer with only a handful of countries including China having them. Especially in ICBMs, no country uses a strap-down INS. In an acclaimed book titled ‘Strap-down Inertial Navigation Technology’, US scientists David Titterton and John Weston explain in detail why strap-down INS will not deliver the needed accuracy to long-range ballistic missiles even when using a nuclear warhead. There are simply too many systemic and atmospheric inaccuracies which multiply over the flight path of a long-range ballistic missile. Shouldn’t the DRDO be developing a gimballed INS before desiring to develop an Agni-6 or an ICBM?

This lecture about gimballed INS sounds BS, a bit of search revealed that Trident missiles uses RLG i.e the same guidance scheme used by A-4 and A-5. Still can some expert comment about this ???

ramana garu any comments about this "Gimballed INS" uvacha ???

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Sep 2013 20:48

Wow that's a strong statement ramana saar !!!!

Karan M any kaament about "Gimballed INS" ???

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 26 Sep 2013 20:55

Karan M wrote:That's unfair to Chacko ramanaji. He had differences with some members and admins perhaps, but his articles were generally more credible than the farticles by sawheny.

I agree Karan. His heart is in the right place. And English? It is a poor compared to Sanskrit. Or other Indian languages.

I miss him and Hakimji.

Sorry for the ot

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Sep 2013 21:08

if other Indian journos had half the dedication and integrity chacko has, Indian media would have been a very different entity.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Sep 2013 21:14

Sagar G wrote:Wow that's a strong statement ramana saar !!!!

Karan M any kaament about "Gimballed INS" ???

That gimballed INS stuff is pure BS. They have their own RLG-INS for long range navigation. There are other navigational sensors DRDO is working on which this guy apparently has no clue of.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 26 Sep 2013 21:17

Rahul M wrote:if other Indian journos had half the dedication and integrity chacko has, Indian media would have been a very different entity.

+100 and I have spoken to him

over the phone and am his fb friend.

And it is time Bharat had people who can do what he does. Helps us to kick @ss too.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Sep 2013 21:34

Karan M wrote:That gimballed INS stuff is pure BS. They have their own RLG-INS for long range navigation. There are other navigational sensors DRDO is working on which this guy apparently has no clue of.

Looks like the case but looking for info about gimballed INS I came across Advanced Inertial Reference Sphere

The AIRS has 19,000 parts. In 1989 a single accelerometer used in the AIRS (there are three) cost $300,000 and took six months to manufacture.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2013 22:46

Karan M wrote:That's unfair to Chacko ramanaji. He had differences with some members and admins perhaps, but his articles were generally more credible than the farticles by sawheny.

I gave a whole thread for him to compile his articles despite objections and still he got into a tiff and took off.

Anyway par for the course.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2013 22:49

SagarG you have already answered it!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Sep 2013 01:11

Ramana, understand your disappointment.

Can BR restart its Monitor experiment or start a section for indigenous programs? There needs to be an archive for the good reports and articles, as versus just analyzing them in these threads and then losing them.

NTI or some site had a pretty good archive on Indian programs.
Rahul M started a BR Wiki, but putting it on the main site would be a better idea.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Sep 2013 10:13

Interview with Sivathanu Pillai

“Looking for Project 75-I to have vertical launched BrahMos missiles”- Sivathanu Pillai

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 10:48

ramana wrote:Tried to encourage ChackoJ to learn to write here but he turned out to be from same pool.

What pool?

Before someone goes off on my sentence construction and others, I should tell you, I barely have time. Usually my articles are written in flat 5 mins or so. Mistakes are bound to come. It is also very difficult to type on mobile or tablet. I have given articles to many of BR folks who are not able to send it in time or are not able to send it. Others are asking charge. I edit my FB posts (long ones) atleast twice. On chat i use * corrections atleast 1 time. If you can forgive my sentences and concentrate on the content, its ok.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Sep 2013 11:09

Agreed CJ. The content is important. And as a source I have found your articles to be informative.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 27 Sep 2013 18:55

Aakash, Prahar missiles to be displayed at Seoul Aero Show

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will showcase Aakash and Prahar missiles at the International Aero show scheduled in Seoul from October 29, a top official said today.

The DRDO-developed ballistic missiles would be showcased to demonstrate to other countries the knowledge and strength of Indian scientists in this technology, Air Defence Programme Director of DRDO in Hyderabad Adalat Ali told reporters here.

Since Prithvi 1 has been phased out as it outlived its life of 10 years, DRDO wanted to develop an upgraded version and had come out with Prahar, surface-to-surface guided short range missile, he said.

While Aakash had a range of 30km, Prahar, a tactical ballistic missile, already carried out a test trial, will have 125 to 150 kms range, Ali said, adding, that the second test trial would be held soon.

When asked about the commercialisation and export opportunity of the missile, he said it was for the Government to decide.

He said Prahar could be inducted into the Defence by 2015.

On upgrading the Agni 5, he said there was always the possibility of extending the capacity or range, since technology was already available.

However, repercussions from other countries, particularly European nations, have also to be considered while enhancing the capacity, Ali, who was here to attend the i3 Expo 2013, a National level exhibition on Ideas, Invention and Innovations, organised by PSG Tech Alumni Association, said.

Interesting information ...
Prithvi-1 is being phased out and will be replaced with Prahar by around 2015. But I don't think Prahar will carry chokha maal.
Europe is pressing us more then the Uncle ....
We are trying to sell our stuff ... first baby step forward.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Sep 2013 20:57

imo the project 75I will need to have a diameter of 9 meters to accomodate the 8m brahmos and 1m of hatch and hull.

the Soryu is the only SSK on this planet that comes remotely near that limiting factor.
(a) exists and works today
(b) meets the size spec
Displacement: Surfaced: 2,900 tonnes (2,854 long tons)
Submerged: 4,200 t (4,134 long tons)
Length: 84.0 m (275 ft 7 in)
Beam: 9.1 m (29 ft 10 in)
Draught: 8.5 m (27 ft 11 in)

there is no point in giving a global tender because no other sub of same size is under construction or even on the drawing board. the U216 is a ppt tiger that will take ages to finalize and work the kinks from vs the Soryu which JMSDF is already using and building more of.

let us not get into barak8 mode and punish ourselves deliberately...its a single vendor situation. either build a smaller SSK off the arihant by importing the diesel engine and fuel cells or run with Soryu.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Sep 2013 21:28

Singha saab you are forgetting that Brahmos can be launched in inclined position as well. So the exact size/height of Sub is immaterial.

But most likely option that I think is, 75-I will be a mini ATV taking all the best things from French sub and Russian sub technology along with Indian. Point to note is already Navy mentioned they are looking for 4k+ t sub capable of deep ocean going with long leg which will act as II-tier, ATV as I-tier and Scorpene for close to the base/shore defence as III tier. Infact there is thinking that this 75-I can morph into mini N sub like the Russian one - I think work twowards this is happening.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 07:12

Brahmos Vertical launch is being sought for P-75I and all potential suppliers claim that it they can do it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Sep 2013 09:06

chackojoseph wrote:
ramana wrote:Tried to encourage ChackoJ to learn to write here but he turned out to be from same pool.
What pool?

Before someone goes off on my sentence construction and others, I should tell you, I barely have time. Usually my articles are written in flat 5 mins or so. Mistakes are bound to come. It is also very difficult to type on mobile or tablet. I have given articles to many of BR folks who are not able to send it in time or are not able to send it. Others are asking charge. I edit my FB posts (long ones) atleast twice. On chat i use * corrections atleast 1 time. If you can forgive my sentences and concentrate on the content, its ok.

OK Glad you came back after my admonition. And really thanks.
Will keep in touch by email.
Sorry you were given the run around.
I always liked the content.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Sep 2013 09:41

chackojoseph wrote:Brahmos Vertical launch is being sought for P-75I and all potential suppliers claim that it they can do it.

are there any other suppliers other than HDW, Rubin and Japan? have the japanese been invited to bid? Aus is in talks with both japan and germany to finalize.
I feel japan is least risky and proven option for obvious reason.

wrt to inclined launch that would be a inefficient solution unless the sub had a huge diameter like Oscar class and could locate these outside the main hull neatly in a row inclined to the front. also remember the missiles have to fire and clear the conning tower as well......no sub design except LA/virginia class have VL tubes ahead of the sail so far , the sail tends to quite near the bow. if a missile ejects and falls back due to misfire we dont want the sail to be in the way.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 09:58

Welcome Ramana

Singha,

Navantia, DCNS. Japanese have not 'yet' shown interest.

I don't know the specific. VLS is being sought based on what they have tested and deployed. Inclined launch, i suppose will have an additional maneuver at launch stage.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 28 Sep 2013 10:44

ramana wrote:OK Glad you came back after my admonition.

Yeah yeah do the same thing to bring other oldies back as well, start with Shiv and Arun S

koti · Post by **koti** » 28 Sep 2013 18:43

I have a little confusion regarding Naval Brahmos. Does the naval pontoon test is only validate vertical launch or both vertical and horizontal launches?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 18:52

Brahmos has never been tested in horizontal launch. Earlier ship based launched were inclined launch which helped them to develop vertical launch.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 28 Sep 2013 19:39

Welcome back CJ. Nice to see you posting on BR

As regards, no vertical launch of Brahmos done... Isn't this a vertical launch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUVMsuLW2EE

John · Post by **John** » 28 Sep 2013 20:02

Brahmos has been tested in both configurations using both L&T & Russian VLS system.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default/files/images/3_Brahmos%20firing%20by%20INS%20Rajput.preview.jpg

http://www.brahmos.com/news%20image/1369208057-L-1.jpg

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 20:22

Thank you sirs?
. Last two questions are for me?

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 28 Sep 2013 22:54

Yes, my question was to u CJ ji

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Sep 2013 06:33

But why?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 29 Sep 2013 06:35

Ajay Sharma wrote:Welcome back CJ. Nice to see you posting on BR

As regards, no vertical launch of Brahmos done... Isn't this a vertical launch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUVMsuLW2EE

he never said it was never launched vertical , he said it has never been launched horizontal

bhart · Post by **bhart** » 29 Sep 2013 10:22

Chacko,
Any news on Akash Mk2 and Barak - 8?

And since you're active on this thread, any news on Saras?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Sep 2013 13:52

Both mentioned projects have slippages. Expect them in next 2 years.

Another prototype of Saras has been in making and can be expected in 6 months time. A partner for Saras is being explored.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Sep 2013 14:24

Singha wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Brahmos Vertical launch is being sought for P-75I and all potential suppliers claim that it they can do it.
are there any other suppliers other than HDW, Rubin and Japan? have the japanese been invited to bid? Aus is in talks with both japan and germany to finalize.
I feel japan is least risky and proven option for obvious reason.

wrt to inclined launch that would be a inefficient solution unless the sub had a huge diameter like Oscar class and could locate these outside the main hull neatly in a row inclined to the front. also remember the missiles have to fire and clear the conning tower as well......no sub design except LA/virginia class have VL tubes ahead of the sail so far , the sail tends to quite near the bow. if a missile ejects and falls back due to misfire we dont want the sail to be in the way.

incline can be towards the side as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2013 18:20

incline toward side is limited by the diameter of the hull.
that is why oscar inclines it to the front where the giant granit's point.
in a DDG ship your plan would work fine.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Sep 2013 20:58

chackojoseph wrote: Another prototype of Saras has been in making and can be expected in 6 months time. A partner for Saras is being explored.

Welcome back Chacko sahab. Had been missing you.

I have been hearing about the Saras prototype flying soon for such a long time now, that I have kind of given up hope. I wish that they rope in Mahindra-GippsAero for the production as they did with NM-5.

The Saras and the GA-18 might complement each other well. The Saras will form the higher end, while GA-18 forms the lower end. It would be awesome to see NM-5, GA-8, GA-10, GA-18 and Saras rolling out of the upcoming Narsapur plant.

Meanwhile, the HAL chairman is pushing hard for marketing the Do-228 better. It will be an interesting space to watch.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Sep 2013 21:15

singhaji, by side I didn't mean perpendicular to hull axis but just enough so that a misfire falls in the water, beyond the superstructure.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 29 Sep 2013 22:03

Good to have u back CJ

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 29 Sep 2013 22:18

krishnan wrote:
Ajay Sharma wrote:Welcome back CJ. Nice to see you posting on BR

As regards, no vertical launch of Brahmos done... Isn't this a vertical launch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUVMsuLW2EE
he never said it was never launched vertical , he said it has never been launched horizontal

I need new specs. Sorry CJ

John · Post by **John** » 30 Sep 2013 00:25

Technically they are no Horizontal launchers they are launched inclined. Even before brahmos came to be, Yakhont was tested multiple times in that fashion from a Nanuchka missile corvette IIRC.