Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 27 Nov 2013 00:59

So when is the next Nirbhay test? Also the A-II and A-III by SFC and A-IV,and PDV by DRDO. Not to mention HSDTV and GSLV-II and III next year. :(( Time moves so slow. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Nov 2013 02:44

Nirbhay was going to be tested in December, everyone knows...
The last test, there was no major problem with guidance per se, a part malfunctioned.
India's Cruise missile guidance is there for all to see in the Brahmos launches

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Leo.Davidson » 27 Nov 2013 08:07

chackojoseph wrote:
VikB wrote:what is the logic of Dhanush? a nuclear capable ballistic missile with 250 km range? the article also says that the missile was tested by SFC .that means it has to be used for nuclear strike only. what is the target? CBG? but 250 is too less. the article also says that the missile has already been inducted.


Dhanush is Prithvi variant and hence nuclear capable. It has a stabilisation platform and has sea worthiness. It can cripple a port or be used for area denial. The best part is that it can do what an ICBM/IRBM can do without the stigma of an long range missiles being used, depending upon the target.


Why are they wasting time with the Dhanush, when Prahaar has been designated as the Prithvi replacement. The Dhanush missile being quite cumbersome and it's delivery system - liquid propellants, unstabilized vertical launcher for 5 ton missile are all problematic.

Better luck with the Prahaar.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Nov 2013 09:11

Dhanush is first ballistic missile capability IN had. It is a proven capability with IN now. If it was cumbersome, then how did it enable IN establish the concept of launchers in the Ships, which later helped Brahmos project.

Your point that the missile has less favorable qualities for ship deployment is not felt by IN 'yet.' IN probably is not ready to ground existing ships for Dhanush to Prahaar installation. Prahaar is not required by Indian Navy on surface ships.

Dhanush also serves a platform for future ship based ballistic missile program.

Prahaar puts IN ships in danger due to its short range. IN is sensibly keeping enemy ships at > 250 km length, by fielding Brahmos and Dhanush.
Last edited by chackojoseph on 27 Nov 2013 09:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby maitya » 27 Nov 2013 09:12

Karan M wrote:
VikB wrote:[quote="Karan M"]Dhanush was INs claim to being part of the SFC and a TD/training platform for them to get used to Sea launched ballistic missiles. Plus allowed DRDO to build competence likewise.[/i]
is that all? so then are there plans to put longer range ballistic missiles on ship? are there any in the world? Arihant will be the one carrying the ballistic missile and there the command control will be much different so what benefit for SFC to fire a nuke ballistic missile from ship? what competence is DRDO building and for what?[/quote]

...
dhanush was IN's way of saying they too were in the game and would be in it for the long run and were not going to wait for arihant to arrive. otherwise it was all IAF (air launched) and IA (BM staffing). as regards the rest, DRDO used the dhanush to both learn navalization of BM tech (which includes component ruggedization), plus stabilization required, plus loop the navy into its missile development program (trishul was not exactly a success). so both sides learned a fair bit from dhanush, which was basically a TD but IN quickly handed over its OPVs to be made dhanush capable, which expanded the program plus showed IN was serious.
...
dhanush has served its purpose and will probably be deactivated or moved to a fully conventional role. there would be an inventory of dhanush's with adequate residual life, and the OPV/s are modified so why waste them. might be useful for Operation Trident redux.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

And here I was, thinking that this whole Dhanush-showbaaji is linked to an evil-baniya-yindoo way of trying to master IRBM-class-sea-based-ABM platform technology. :twisted:
After all, from a platform pov, how different would be the ABM missile launchers, form those of a Dhanush/Prithvi BM - not much, I presume.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kartik » 27 Nov 2013 09:34

Can't the K4 SLBM be modified and used in place of the Dhanush? With a longer range, won't it offer a much more potent capability than the Dhanush at 250-350km range?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Nov 2013 09:58

Kartik,

K series are long way to go. A 300 km k-series is useless in conventional role because of Brahmos. All alternatives we are speaking will take another 5 - 10 years for deployment.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pragnya » 27 Nov 2013 10:14

Leo.Davidson wrote:Why are they wasting time with the Dhanush, when Prahaar has been designated as the Prithvi replacement. The Dhanush missile being quite cumbersome and it's delivery system - liquid propellants, unstabilized vertical launcher for 5 ton missile are all problematic.

Better luck with the Prahaar.


LD, a correction. Prahar is a replacement for Prithvi 1 (150km range) in IA - which was a tactical battlefield missile. Prithvi 2 is for IAF which is similar in range to Dhanush which is a naval variant and both are not going to be replaced in a long time.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Nov 2013 10:17

^ Also Prithvi 150's are being converted to Prithvi 250.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 27 Nov 2013 10:21

I believe dhanush platform serves as an acceptable training ground for navy to.develop. nuclear command and control methods. The range and performance of the system is not.ideal but it is nevertheless an inductucted and operational system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pragnya » 27 Nov 2013 10:25

maitya wrote:And here I was, thinking that this whole Dhanush-showbaaji is linked to an evil-baniya-yindoo way of trying to master IRBM-class-sea-based-ABM platform technology. :twisted:
After all, from a platform pov, how different would be the ABM missile launchers, form those of a Dhanush/Prithvi BM - not much, I presume.


interesting and possible. :)

chackojoseph wrote:^ Also Prithvi 150's are being converted to Prithvi 250.


true CJ.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kartik » 27 Nov 2013 15:25

chackojoseph wrote:Kartik,

K series are long way to go. A 300 km k-series is useless in conventional role because of Brahmos. All alternatives we are speaking will take another 5 - 10 years for deployment.


I did'nt say that the K-4 was ready to be deployed. I was asking if the K-4 could be modified to be used in place of the Dhanush. The obvious intent was when the K-4 is ready, the Dhanush can be replaced with a superior BM.

and what restricts the K-4 variant on surface warships to 300 km? its not bound by any MTCR treaty, so a K-4 variant could have the full 750km range anyway. Far better than a 250-300km range liquid fuelled missile that requires the warship to get quite close to the enemy's coast, exposing it to AShM attacks from surface batteries or P-3 Orions with Harpoons or JF-17s with CM-400AKGs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 27 Nov 2013 15:40

A miniaturized K missile of same weight as Dhanush would have more throw and wont need much changes to the stabilization mechanism in place.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VikB » 27 Nov 2013 16:01

thank you Karan and Chacko

Any other country that fields ship based ballistic missiles? And why not (if not)?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nikhil_p » 27 Nov 2013 18:23

IIRC the Dhanush did not refer to the missile but the launching platform which carries the missile. The P150 and P250 were used because they were readily available in quantity and also some of them were at the end of life.
The Dhanush system was intended to qualify the systems and the controls required to have a stable launch at sea, which in the future will help us to base our other missile systems on the ships bringing in a fourth dimension to the nuclear delivery systems. (Land, Air, Sub Sea, Above Sea). Imagine a small corvette carrying a 200 - 750 km range missile, which can be launched at sea towards a land target well outside the engagement area of ground based aircraft.
It may well give us second/third strike capability as well.
Spin offs may also include stabilized launchers for SAM type long range missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2013 19:10

the italian cruiser guiseppe garibaldi had 4 polaris missile silos and launched a few tests. but usa did not provide the promised missiles. they then moved to a local irbm named Alfa but italy was persuaded to give up even irbm.
http://www.steelnavy.com/images/RM%20Ga ... sphoto.JPG
http://i.imgur.com/Q4hMK.jpg

it looks similar to our kashin ships

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 27 Nov 2013 19:18

maitya wrote:And here I was, thinking that this whole Dhanush-showbaaji is linked to an evil-baniya-yindoo way of trying to master IRBM-class-sea-based-ABM platform technology. :twisted:
After all, from a platform pov, how different would be the ABM missile launchers, form those of a Dhanush/Prithvi BM - not much, I presume.


Can't find any fault with what Karan say's but neither with your's,

Besides the two ranges along the East Coast, the DRDO was also planning to establish a Floating Test Range, which would include radars and launch facilities on a ship, another official said.

Problems relating to safety and other issues could be overcome through a Floating Test Range, which could be used for testing missiles relating to air defence or ship-based Dhanush missiles.


nikhil_p wrote:IIRC the Dhanush did not refer to the missile but the launching platform which carries the missile....


Technology Focus August 2007

DRDO has also developed indigenously Dhanush missile—a naval variant of Prithvi—and a supersonic cruise missile, BrahMos, in collaboration with Russian entity Mashinostroyeniye. Both the missiles are ready for induction into the Services after successful trials at sea. This issue of Technology Focus is highlighting the salient featues and achievements of Project Dhanush.

Project Dhanush was sanctioned by the Indian Navy to integrate and demonstrate the feasibility of launching variant of Prithvi from a ship. The translation from the technology demonstrator to weaponisation configuration, and induction of the Dhanush weapon system has been completed with the successful 'Acceptance Test Firing' conducted by the user, and after achieving all the planned mission objectives. The salient features and achievements of Project Dhanush required development and realiasation of a number of systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vipins » 27 Nov 2013 19:35

nikhil_p wrote:Paanwallah Alert***

Expect an air breathing mijjile test soon. does not create a shock wave...creates a shock though. Issues with guidance sorted out.

Around 2010 , Shiv Aroor posted about a LRCM ,with speculated time frame of testing around 2013-14.
pic
link to Livefist page about LRCM

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Nov 2013 20:01

Kartik wrote:I did'nt say that the K-4 was ready to be deployed. I was asking if the K-4 could be modified to be used in place of the Dhanush. The obvious intent was when the K-4 is ready, the Dhanush can be replaced with a superior BM.

and what restricts the K-4 variant on surface warships to 300 km? its not bound by any MTCR treaty, so a K-4 variant could have the full 750km range anyway. Far better than a 250-300km range liquid fuelled missile that requires the warship to get quite close to the enemy's coast, exposing it to AShM attacks from surface batteries or P-3 Orions with Harpoons or JF-17s with CM-400AKGs.


As mentioned, all alternatives are a long way. Nothing stops Navy to get a VLS Ballistic Missile. So, why not put an Agni -1 on ship with rail launch (minus the rails) kind of arrangement? It can be converted faster wrt K-4 and Dhanush's ship stabilised launcher can be adapted.

You should realise that the very reason we are speaking about using K-4 or A-1 on ships is because of Dhanush experiment and its continued validation.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 28 Nov 2013 00:55

Kartik, you mean K-15, right?

Chacko ji, while I (and am sure Kartik) understand what you are suggesting, I don't see your logic here. K-15 is designed to be launched from a submarine, another unstable platform. Though the motions from a ship and a submarine are different, I can't see why it would be difficult enough to need years to develop it!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Nov 2013 02:56

VikB wrote:thank you Karan and Chacko

Any other country that fields ship based ballistic missiles? And why not (if not)?


In these days of sat surveillance ship based assets are quite vulnerable to detection by those countries with such resources. And hence they are considered destabilizing as they would invite a first strike. However current Paki technology doesn't appear to have such resources. So its not destabilizing wrt to TSP.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 28 Nov 2013 04:21

chackojoseph wrote:As mentioned, all alternatives are a long way. Nothing stops Navy to get a VLS Ballistic Missile. So, why not put an Agni -1 on ship with rail launch (minus the rails) kind of arrangement? It can be converted faster wrt K-4 and Dhanush's ship stabilised launcher can be adapted.

Shourya and Brahmos use similar canister so an enlarged Brahmos UVLS could be used to launch K-15 as well. But as noted earlier what exactly is point of ship based BM certainly it can be detected with SLBM pretty much makes it obsolete.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 28 Nov 2013 06:11

indranilroy wrote:Kartik, you mean K-15, right?

Chacko ji, while I (and am sure Kartik) understand what you are suggesting, I don't see your logic here. K-15 is designed to be launched from a submarine, another unstable platform. Though the motions from a ship and a submarine are different, I can't see why it would be difficult enough to need years to develop it!


How many years you think is required to develop and deploy it?

John,

None of them are deployed programs. Only Brahmos and Dhanush have are deployed and proven programs.

ramana,

You do not meet sophisticated, ever turned on and omnipresent enemies every day. Other than US and allies, none of them are as sophisticated and even if the lesser ones have capabilities, don't seem to as good as textbook.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 28 Nov 2013 06:35

chackojoseph wrote:John,

None of them are deployed programs. Only Brahmos and Dhanush have are deployed and proven programs.

You are overestimating DRDO, Considering at the pace at which our development programs take. Even anything as simple as naval K-4 mounted on Rajput DDG will take decade to see day of light, by which time decent force of Arihant K-4/15 will all be inducted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 28 Nov 2013 06:44

John wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:John,

None of them are deployed programs. Only Brahmos and Dhanush have are deployed and proven programs.

You are overestimating DRDO, Considering at the pace at which our development programs take. Even anything as simple as naval K-4 mounted on Rajput DDG will take decade to see day of light, by which time decent force of Arihant K-4/15 will all be inducted.


Can you point out my overestimation?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 28 Nov 2013 08:16

chackojoseph wrote:Can you point out my overestimation?

As mentioned earlier by the time K-4 or Agni are modified for stabilized naval platform it would take years not to mention i don't think the existing Subhadra hanger is large enough to accommodate either. IMO is much better alternative to simply mount the K-4 canisters in Rajput (like they had done with Brahmos) or develop a larger UVLS that can fire both Brahmos and K-4.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 28 Nov 2013 08:39

I have no idea what you are trying to say on over estimation. I suggested new ships and never mentioned Subhadra.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 28 Nov 2013 12:21

Second user trial of Agni III next month
http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... 913845.ece
After Agni-III trial, the DRDO has scheduled to conduct third trial of
4000-km range Agni-IV.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kartik » 28 Nov 2013 16:17

indranilroy wrote:Kartik, you mean K-15, right?

Chacko ji, while I (and am sure Kartik) understand what you are suggesting, I don't see your logic here. K-15 is designed to be launched from a submarine, another unstable platform. Though the motions from a ship and a submarine are different, I can't see why it would be difficult enough to need years to develop it!


yes, pardon my error. I meant the K-15 that has been tested extensively and will soon will integrated with INS Arihant. Realised that the K-4 is the longer 3000 km variant that is not yet developed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 29 Nov 2013 00:00

chackojoseph wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Kartik, you mean K-15, right?

Chacko ji, while I (and am sure Kartik) understand what you are suggesting, I don't see your logic here. K-15 is designed to be launched from a submarine, another unstable platform. Though the motions from a ship and a submarine are different, I can't see why it would be difficult enough to need years to develop it!


How many years you think is required to develop and deploy it?

Chacko ji,

Here is a list of things that DRDO already has:
1. Between K-15 and Shaurya they have the technology to launch the missile either submerged or from the surface.
2. A hydraulically stabilized platform to launch Dhanush (almost the same weight/dimensions as the K-15).
3. Both the K-15/Shaurya are vertically launched systems from launch tubes/canisters.
4. With the last test of K-15, DRDO said that it is ready for induction into Arihant.

I don't see what is missing in fielding the K-15 from warships. Except that IN would rather field cheaper cruise missiles like Nirbhay.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Nov 2013 07:09

You still haven't given me the time frame you are targeting.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kartik » 29 Nov 2013 09:33

What's this about time frame? Nobody suggested that the K-15 has to be deployed tomorrow. However, the fact remains that its a modern solid fuelled missile, with a longer range and has already been tested from submerged pontoons, which suggests that it can handle the rolling motions of a ship. If the IN believes that it needs the ability to launch BMs from surface warships, then the K-15 could take that role, replacing the Dhanush which tactically and operationally would be a far more risky missile to use.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 29 Nov 2013 09:34

chackojoseph wrote:You still haven't given me the time frame you are targeting.


If it was a priority item, I think it could be tested within 1-2 years.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VikB » 29 Nov 2013 12:15

ramana wrote:
VikB wrote:thank you Karan and Chacko

Any other country that fields ship based ballistic missiles? And why not (if not)?


In these days of sat surveillance ship based assets are quite vulnerable to detection by those countries with such resources. And hence they are considered destabilizing as they would invite a first strike. However current Paki technology doesn't appear to have such resources. So its not destabilizing wrt to TSP.


I remember the argument given against the success of carrier-busting ballistic missiles of Cheen was that it is impossible to hunt for a ship in the vast oceans. Even otherwise, having some ballistic missiles on ships in the sea will increase the headache for the adversary in terms of the number of targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 29 Nov 2013 12:57

i imagine that finding a cbg in the open ocean is going to be a function of satellite imagery - that locates a crude box where the flotilla might be - but a box of several thousand sq kms (because of snapshots and time lags in image capture/processing/interpretation). then elint, and more specific fixing by long range aviation and submarines to narrow down to a few hundred sq kms to tens of sq kms - before you can even think of launching a specific attack against it. still find it difficult to figure out the logistics of targetting a carrier with a bm without knowing its precise location and trajectory, but a seeking cm or swarm is a different matter - assuming one can get enough attack craft into launch range within the defense bubble

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 29 Nov 2013 13:15

DRDO Developing High Altitude 'Killer' Missile
http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... 917837.ece
By Hemant Kumar Rout - BALASORE Published: 29th November 2013 08:51 AM Last Updated: 29th November 2013 10:18 AM

After a long wait, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is contemplating to conduct the first test of its newly developed interceptor missile from a defence base off the Odisha coast next month.

The missile, dubbed as Prithvi Defence Vehicle (PDV), has the potential to destroy enemy missile with a strike range of around 2,500 km outside the earth’s atmosphere (at an altitude of over 150 km). Only a few countries in the world have such a capability.

The air defence exercise, a part of India’s Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system, would involve two missiles- the interceptor and enemy missile. Both the missiles have been developed for the first time and will be programmed at separate locations in Chandipur and Wheeler Island.

A source said while the enemy missile would be fired from a Naval warship in the Bay of Bengal, the interceptor would be launched from the launching complex-IV at Wheeler Island. “The test is likely to be conducted any time between December 20 and December 27,” he said.

Earlier, the DRDO had successfully test-fired exo-atmospheric (outside the atmosphere) and endo-atmospheric (within the atmosphere) interceptor ballistic missiles.

Of the seven interceptor missile tests, six have been successful. While two were in exo-atmosphere region, five took place in endo-atmosphere (below an altitude of 50 km).

“Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) interceptor missile has already demonstrated its killing capability at an altitude of 50 to 80 km. The Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile has destroyed the target missile at an altitude of 15 to 30 km. Now we want to achieve the interception altitude of over 150 km,” a defence scientist said.

The two-stage PDV interceptor will be powered by solid propellants and fitted to an innovative system for controlling the vehicle at an altitude of more than 150 km.

A scientist associated with the PDV project told ‘Express’ that the focus was now to achieve the killing precision at the highest altitude with the help of an advanced software for which the DRDO would achieve a direct hit-to-kill on the target missile.

In a bid to protect major cities, the DRDO has developed two-layered BMD system and the R&D is on to develop Phase-II anti-ballistic missile defence system, capable of destroying enemy inter-continental ballistic missiles fired 5,000 km away.

The two-layered BMD system is expected to be inducted in the armed forces by the end of next year.

However, prior to the PDV test, two user trials by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) have been planned.

While the 350-km range Prithvi-II ballistic missile is slated for test on December 3, Agni-III missile, with a range of 3,000-km, is scheduled for test on December 18.

Hit-to-kill

* The missile, dubbed as Prithvi Defence Vehicle (PDV), has the potential to destroy enemy missile with a strike range of around 2,500 km outside the earth’s atmosphere (at an altitude of over 150 km)

* Only a few countries in the world have such a capability

* The focus was now to achieve the killing precision at the highest altitude with the help of an advanced software for which the DRDO would achieve a direct hit-to-kill on the target missile

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Nov 2013 17:34

indranilroy wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:You still haven't given me the time frame you are targeting.


If it was a priority item, I think it could be tested within 1-2 years.


Which ship are you proposing that can be cut in the middle or even at sides and insert a 35 feet VLS launcher in next two years (besides what is priority? Nothing is leisurely done).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2013 18:18

any chances of a Liaoning killa missile in a year or two?

how about modifying the shourya both into a awacs/tanker killer (using active-radar LRSAM as a terminal vehicle) and as a single-piece carrier killa with a 400kg warhead?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Nov 2013 19:15

Dhanush is area denial missile. It can, but is not hit to kill. I doubt it will survive ABM defences of Liaoning, if it has one. So its better to shower ordinance and make the AC to restrict operation. Brahmos is Hit to kill and hence the hypersonic version. Shaurya would be unnecessary effort.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2013 19:24

Shaurya has the huge advantage in range over Brahmos. @ 1000km it can still take a considerable payload...enough to rip the guts out of a carrier 8 decks deep, where a brahmos homing in at sea level might just mission kill it.

not that I am opposed to the idea of a combined Shaurya + brahmos attack - one starting from 30km high and the other at sea level.


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