Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 Jan 2014 20:28

It would be interesting to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM-134_Midgetman

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 Jan 2014 20:38

My guess about range with 500kg warhead

Agni-2500km

Agni-2-3500km
Agni-4-5000km

Agni-3-3 warheads-8000km

Agni-5-5 warheads-10,000km

K-15-2500km
K-4-6000km
K-5-3 warheads-8000 km

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2014 21:16

for unknown reasons, Russia is also claimed to be developing a new 'small icbm' Rubezh of the midgetman type. perhaps the idea is release a conventionally armed hypersonic vehicle for prompt global strike in response to US work on similar lines. or perhaps a low yield n-warhead for precision counterforce attacks.

ausairpower has a short excerpt pointing to benefits of having a land rock to hit with RVs vs sea impact
The Kura Impact Range, located on the Kamchatka peninsula, provides a secure range where long-distance Soviet and Russian ICBM tests terminated. Various telemetry stations are present, including the RSN-225 radar formerly associated with the S-225 mobile ABM system. This radar is used to track inbound ICBMs, and caused a minor uproar when it was deployed as it was recognized by American intelligence as an ABM-related asset. While some ICBM tests do terminate in the Pacific Ocean on maximum range test flights, the Kura range is a significant asset as it provides a wealth of performance and telemetry data during the reentry phase of flight. Having an RV impact on land also means that any onboard telemetry equipment may be recovered with greater ease than if the RV impacted at sea.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2014 01:55

GD, That is hog wash or rather bokwas.
An RV impact on land wont have any telemetry equipment. It will be burnt up debris.
OTH a land range allows one to conduct tests without proximate observers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jan 2014 07:32

Kura Impact Range is used as it has elaborate Telemetry and Radar facility to track impact range of all kind of RV....all ICBM/SLBM tested development or deployed land up at Kura although that takes most part of the trajectory over the land mass of Russia.

Coming back to Chinese HGV test ...not many might be aware the most advanced HGV tested and deployed till date has been on RS-24 that does more than 10 km/sec and impossible to intercept even kinetically by any known ABM system deployed or on drawing board , here is chief designer of RS-24 mentioned in an interview http://vpk-news.ru/articles/7353

Yuri Solomonov questioned the effectiveness of a number of American and development on missile defense. "Those technical means by which the Americans are trying to solve the problems of interception of an object moving at a speed exceeding 10 kilometers per second, this task is technically unsolvable" - says Solomon. In real conditions of combat use with the environment blocks tens and hundreds of false elements completely identical warheads over the entire set of pattern recognition (dynamic, thermal and radar characteristics), he said, to solve the problem in the time available to intercept possible.

Thats more than Mach 30 HGV while the chinese has yet in process of testing HGV that does Mach 10 far less perfecting it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jan 2014 07:34

was this posted before

Nuclear Weapons and Deterrence

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2014 08:02

Kura probably has large radars capable of tracking inbound objects from 2000km away up in space. at present our ships can only track a couple 100km away. in future if we build a proper telemetry ship like cheen/rus/us with those big domes covering radars, we could do it too.

it will be needed to track evasive moves by RV or BGRV type systems.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jan 2014 09:43

^^ Singha , we can build such facility at A&N Island where we can have such ground facility and testing range , it would also take most of the trajectory of Bay of Bengal sea , provided Environmental Minstry and NGO dont raise hue and cry over it.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 31 Jan 2014 10:40

Austin wrote:^^ Singha , we can build such facility at A&N Island where we can have such ground facility and testing range , it would also take most of the trajectory of Bay of Bengal sea , provided Environmental Minstry and NGO dont raise hue and cry over it.

Of late Environment ministry and NGOs seem to be raising a noise, getting stay from judiciary for almost every project. If after these hurdles it goes forward... the whole land acquisition process takes an ugly turn... surprisingly these NGOs are well financed and organized. I sometimes wonder why our defence orgs also choose such locations. Ex: the location of the proposed second missile testing range encompases a reserve forest and mangroves.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2014 10:53

A&N is really to near given the A5 splashdown occurred somewhere past Indonesia. and A6/K5 will go longer.
we cannot rely on elliptical shots to simulate full range..full range means a full range shot as one never knows how different trajectories will affect the systems.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Feb 2014 13:01

Austin link in Nal disussion forum [BrahMos cruise missiles salvo-fired in India for the first time/url]

And

[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Astra-air-to-air-missile-to-be-launched-in-March-April/articleshow/29943764.cms]Astra Air-to-air missile to be aunched in March-April

If Astra is successfully fired from a Su-30 aircraft, India would join the elite group of nations including USA, France, Russia and Israel possessing such missiles capable of engaging ultra-modern supersonic fighter jets.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Feb 2014 19:11

I am sure that this may have been posted earlier/AWST Nov. 11t/18 2013 issue.Features global strategic N-weapons/delivery systems,including India.Quotes from the DRDO chief AC,etc.

Agni 1 and 2 Pak specific,3/4/5 China specific.A-5 5000km is being tweaked for better accuracy.An advanced version of A-5 with a range of 6000km is being developed 2 years time?.Road/rail mobile.Incidentally Russia prefers rail mobile ICBMs because they can be relocated 1000km in a day.China has vast underground hideouts for its missiles.Given the location of China's key assets in he north and east,range and accuracy improvement is the focus of the existing missiles.A-6 with a range of 8-10,000km has been designed.Only the "hardware-realisation" aspects are being pursued .A-6 will feature 4-6 MIRVs,independent targets.A-6 formal development will take place after A-5 perfected.K-15 trials awaited.Each K-15 missile weighs "6t".Mid 2013 expected service date for the ATV (poss schedule for K-15 tests),first of 3 SSBNs.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 06 Feb 2014 20:58

They are testing Nirbhay next month.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 07:47

Brahmos-M

Length - 6 m
Diameter - 0.5 m
Range - 290 km
Speed - 3.5M

BrahMos Mini - 1.5 ton missile - as compared to the regular 3 ton - was announced by the team. "These missiles, the engines of which we have readied and are now configuring, will have a smaller diameter to fit it into aircrafts as well as torpedo tubes of submarines," announced Dr Pillai

he noted adding that the fifth-generation fighter and carrier-based MiG-29K/KUB jets will be able to carry two BrahMos-M missiles, while Su-30MKI aircraft will carry three ones.

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/defexpo-20 ... 42143.html
http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2014/2/6/2163/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 08:08

Interview with Dr Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive BrahMos

BrahMos wants to make missile adaptable for FGFA - Sivathanu Pillai

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 08:28

^^^

We recently experimented with the concept of salvo. The idea is to prove that we do not have to wait and that we can simultaneously fire eight missiles with a gap of three seconds and all eight targets will be hit at almost the same time. This will completely perplex the enemy. This capability is available with BrahMos. If it can be launched like this from submarine, you will see the underwater form, which we have approved already. Eight missiles come from underwater and eight targets! Now, what are the targets? Each missile is capable of hitting sea target as well a land target. This is the only missile in the world which has got the capability to attack sea target as well as land target.

You can feed all the target positions in the fire control system whether it is land or sea and tell the missile to go all the way. This capability if it is coming from submarine, there is no enemy for us. That is why we are telling P75 I should have BrahMos vertically launched.

nash · Post by **nash** » 07 Feb 2014 21:19

Brahmos-M has same range and almost same warhead but dimensions are shorter and meaner, does it suggest that previous speculation of Brahmos range of 500Km can be correct?

Also, they have created a new engine, Dr Pillai say WE, does this WE means only Indian scientist or after this we have know-how of Brahmos ramjet engine?

John · Post by **John** » 08 Feb 2014 03:04

That is due to confusion with original specs for Oniks which called for missile with Hi-Lo range of around 500 Km+ but there was some issue with engine hence a modified variant of Moskit ramjet engine was used which considerably shortened its range.

I suspect improvements in the engine and fuel along with weight reduction of seeker/use of composites contributed to smaller footprint for Brahmos-M. The higher top speed hints at perhaps even a different ramjet engine...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2014 08:39

Dr Pillai hinted at a longer range for Brahmos during Aero India Seminar Q&A .there must be the video on u tube.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 08 Feb 2014 08:42

nash wrote:Brahmos-M has same range and almost same warhead but dimensions are shorter and meaner, does it suggest that previous speculation of Brahmos range of 500Km can be correct?

Also, they have created a new engine, Dr Pillai say WE, does this WE means only Indian scientist or after this we have know-how of Brahmos ramjet engine?

Is there any place where they have stated that the smaller Brahmos will have the same range as before?

Or is this purely an assumption on the part of BRF?

As far as I can tell, the original plan was to simply shuffle around the existing missile with the booster removed. That made it possible for one Air-Launched Brahmos per Su-30MKI. This missile would have retained the range of the original brahmos, simply because only the booster was to be removed in terms of propulsion energy, and that deficit was made up by the high altiutude release from the parent aircraft. Now they are claiming the smaller missile goes three-per-airplane. So unless they clearly state the range as being the same, we have to assume that these will be shorter range missiles.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Feb 2014 09:02

If its hypersonic, it may achieve.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2014 09:12

vivek_ahuja wrote:Is there any place where they have stated that the smaller Brahmos will have the same range as before?

Or is this purely an assumption on the part of BRF?

As far as I can tell, the original plan was to simply shuffle around the existing missile with the booster removed. That made it possible for one Air-Launched Brahmos per Su-30MKI. This missile would have retained the range of the original brahmos, simply because only the booster was to be removed in terms of propulsion energy, and that deficit was made up by the high altiutude release from the parent aircraft. Now they are claiming the smaller missile goes three-per-airplane. So unless they clearly state the range as being the same, we have to assume that these will be shorter range missiles.

Brahmos-M is a missile with different dimension , so they will have newer ramjet engine and perhaps a more efficient one too.

I think the goal is to carry a supersonic missile on as many platforms as possible and fire from TT of submarine 533 mm. The current Brahmos is just limited to MKI and that too a single one.

As far a range goes ..they can achieve a longer range if they trade of warhead weight from 300 kg to say something half.

Brahmos-M weighs 1.5 T compare that with modernised Kh-31AD it weighs 715 kg , carries 110 Kg warhead and has a range of 120- 160 km. Brahmos-M is twice as heavy as Kh-31AD.

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/5 ... 34c9a8d5fe

wig · Post by **wig** » 08 Feb 2014 09:44

this is regarding the ballistic missile defence system

India’s system to stall an incoming ‘enemy-fired’ nuclear missile in mid-air and destroying it will be put to test in a month from now. The Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system will tackle in mid-air any incoming nuclear missile. DRDO chief Avinash Chander said: “We are going through consolidation phase flight. A test flight is planned about a month from now”. We will finalise the configuration, this will conduct repeated tests for interceptions.

while the Arihant will test fire a missile with a range of 700km, termed, "B-05"

Separately, nuclear-powered submarine Arihant will test-fire the missile so far named ‘B-05’ as part of its forthcoming sea trials.

The DRDO chief told a press conference at the Defexpo here that the missiles to be fired from Arihant are ready and the submarine was going through power raising cycles. There are safety procedures to be followed and will be completed in a month or two. Once full power generation is achieved, it will go for sea trials. The DRDO chief while answering questions said “the B-05 missile will be tested this year and they are part of the sea trials of Arihant”.

Chander said the development trials of the B-05 missile were completed in January 2013 and it is ready for being fully integrated with the indigenous nuclear submarine. Sources said it can travel to 700 km while the bigger variant, so far known as ‘K-4’, can hit targets 3,500 km away and will finally be installed on the Arihant and also the next two follow-on submarines of the same class.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140208/nation.htm#2

John · Post by **John** » 08 Feb 2014 20:19

Austin wrote:Dr Pillai hinted at a longer range for Brahmos during Aero India Seminar Q&A .there must be the video on u tube.

Yes but at the cost of shorter or no terminal phase which would make missile a lot easier to shoot down that is true for almost all Ashm but while that might not be useful for AsuW since Brahmos has secondary land attack capability that is what he was hinting at. The land attack range for Brahmos could be much higher.

Current reports suggest Brahmos-M has 200-300 kg warhead identical to Brahmos, this could be a mistake.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2014 20:47

Even within MTCR restricition Brahmos has a decent range for any anti-ship missile and it has many capabilities including terminal one which are not advertised besides speed and range....reason Dr Pillai correctly stated that intercepting Brahmos for next 20 years is almost impossible.....ofcourse supersonic Brahmos would also evolve in the next 20 years and its capabilities wont remain static during that period

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2014 21:08

Some more details on Brahmos-M

http://defense-update.com/20140207_defe ... rt-ii.html

As the next generation of the current Brahmos, the missile will have reduced dimmensions, lower weight and higher speed, compared to the current BrahMos. It will be three meter shorter, with a diameter 190mm smaller, compared to the Brahmos. Its weight will be 1500kg, about 500 less than Brahmos. Optimized for airborne and tube-launched submarine applications, Brahmos M will have a range of 300 km (290 for Brahmos) and its speed will be increased to 3.5 Mach (2.8 max in Brahmos). The missile will have stealth features to reduce radar signature and will also have improved electronic counter-countermeasures. The new missile could be operational by 2017, on Indian Su-30MKI, MiG-29 and MiG-29K of the Indian Army and Naval Aviation arm.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2014 21:54

Shiv Aroor posted Defexpo video on Brahmos

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 08 Feb 2014 22:19

^^ Is this the first open source proof of underwater test of Brahmos? Was there any other news before this?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 08 Feb 2014 22:31

Underwater test has been reported before

http://www.brahmos.com/newscenter.php?newsid=166

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Feb 2014 22:58

Some thoughts and armchair analysis about the Brahmos-M.

1) What was thought of as probable is now obvious - that the full potential range of the current Brahmos is far more than 290 km in a hi-lo profile, and more than 120 km in lo-lo profile. While there will be legal fig-leaf like claiming it is software-limited to 290km, I'm surprised that we've more or less officially confirmed it. The two governments must be very confident that questions won't be raised about MTCR violations.

2) Being smaller than Klub (5m instead of 8m) and far more potent, it means that our existing and upcoming submarines (kilos, scorpenes and the Chakra) can now be equipped with this instead of the Klub. So the requirement of VLS tubes and large diameter in P75I will probably go away.

3) It was reported somewhere that the current Brahmos actual range is 500km - which means other than Balochistan, almost all of TSP are in its sniping range from within Indian territory. Very important for cold start. And, interestingly, so is Lhasa.

All in all, things have gotten a lot exciting.

nash · Post by **nash** » 08 Feb 2014 23:17

another thing which can be added after Brahmos-M(1.5 ton and 6 meter) is what will be the spec of hyper Brahmos.

I would say it will be quite similar to kh-15 if range is within 300Km

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2014 03:48

srin wrote:that the full potential range of the current Brahmos is far more than 290 km in a hi-lo profile, and more than 120 km in lo-lo profile. While there will be legal fig-leaf like claiming it is software-limited to 290km, I'm surprised that we've more or less officially confirmed it. The two governments must be very confident that questions won't be raised about MTCR violations.

You have to keep in mind china has Moskit-M which uses similar ramjet engine as Brahmos/Yakhont and carries nearly double the fuel so you can extrapolate what the true range of that missile is. It goes to show range is moot point since detecting and engaging a ship at that range is quite difficult, rather need to focus more on improved seeker the latter carries and making the missile smaller/cheaper and more compact. Brahmos-M is right step forward and it looks like it can be fitted into existing universal launchers.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Feb 2014 04:06

+1. The biggest issue with Brahmos from the physical perspective was its size - impacting rounds carried and cost.
From the Indian perspective, was the lack of Indian content in the seeker & propulsion. Hopefully there are improvements on that end as well with Brahmos-M.
There are local seekers & ramjet programs underway, but if the M includes new Russian tech, it would be good if its locally manufactured then just assembled in India from Russian kits.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 09 Feb 2014 04:36

With Brahmos-M fitting in 533mm torpedo tubes, why does Dr. Pillai still want vertical launch for Brahmos? its probably to do with 3 sec interval salvo launch which may not be possible from TTs

and for a conventional sub 290km is probably short for a land target even a coastal one, they should probably have a subsonic stage while flying low over the sea to increase range

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Feb 2014 04:47

Ultimately we need our own ramjet propulsion tech. This 290 km limitation is just BS and limits our options and puts our platforms at risk. Our urgent operational needs may be met by Brahmos etc, but the Russians are making a killing at our expense and will clearly not hand over tech beyond the MTCR, judging by all this 290 km rubbish.

srin · Post by **srin** » 09 Feb 2014 18:08

@KaranM, the point I'm making is that I don't think that 290km limit really exists. I think there is enough plausible deniability built into that Russia can disown (if it is software limited, and India has control to software, then India can change the limit, no ?) any changes.

But concur on needing to master liquid ramjet propulsion and seeker.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Feb 2014 18:31

I hope you are right.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 09 Feb 2014 20:46

Is there an opportunity here to make the Brahmos double hulled, the outer one is as is today except made of radar permeating composites, the inner one of the dimensions of Brahmos-M has a frame optimized for stealth, all angled and not aerodynamic, it then doesn't need to be terrain hugging and can fly hi-lo without being detected for increased range

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 09 Feb 2014 21:01

what ship is being destroyed there? seems like more than one judging from the videos...

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2014 22:14

srin wrote:@KaranM, the point I'm making is that I don't think that 290km limit really exists. I think there is enough plausible deniability built into that Russia can disown (if it is software limited, and India has control to software, then India can change the limit, no ?) any changes.

But concur on needing to master liquid ramjet propulsion and seeker.

Either way this discussion regarding ranges doesn't really belong in open forums since without confidential information no one can confirm or deny.

Vasu
I believe brahmos design already incorporates some stealth characteristics compared to Moskit but i believe the ramjet intakes makes it hard to make it truly stealthy compared to lets say JASSM.