Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Rahul M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Feb 2014 23:09

JEM, polnocny class landing ship, osa missile boat, a nilgiri/leander I think.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2014 08:48

Range for Brahmos is just a thing ..DRDO/Brahmos will never claim its range is greater than MTCR range i.e > 300 km.

Even Dr Pillai admitting it having capability to go longer than the present range in a Q&A at AI 13 was considered a faux pas

Claiming Brahmos having crossed MTCR range will have serious legal and geo-political consequences for both Russia and India.

It is no secret that range for Brahmos is a SW lock function and having control over the SW its easy to see why range is not an issue and its strictly at 290 km within MTCR norms and why even the mini-Brahmos having half the weight are within these criteria

The key to long range missile is to develop assets that can track long range targets , positively identify targets at those long range with minimum warning to the target under intense EW/ECM environment and then pass it on to friendly assets that can fire missile salvos all in real time and if required pass on mid course updates by continuously tracking enemy assets and friendly missile salvos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 10 Feb 2014 15:13

Thanks Rahul ...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Feb 2014 23:13

RahulM,
At 1.48 thru 1.55 which IN submarine is that from? And that bird doesnt look like the other birds. Maybe camera angle but where are the aft fins?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 10 Feb 2014 23:17

ramana wrote:And that bird doesnt look like the other birds. Maybe camera angle but where are the aft fins?


I think that's just the camara angle + resolution issues of the video. The fins are there as far as I can tell.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 11 Feb 2014 15:57

Image

First picture i have seen of canister based TEL.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kailash » 11 Feb 2014 16:00


Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2014 01:07

Astra moves ahead

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... sh-chander

HYDERABAD: In what will equip India with missile power comparable to only a few in the world, Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is finalising plans to launch Astra, the Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) air-to-air missile, in March or at the most April this year. If Astra is successfully fired from a Su-30 aircraft, India would join the elite group of nations including USA, France, Russia and Israel possessing such missiles capable of engaging ultra-modern supersonic fighter jets.

Summing up the developments so far, Dr V G Sekaran, distinguished scientist & director general, missiles and strategic systems while speaking exclusively to TOI said that so far, the captive trials have been completed and that they were a phenomenal success. Now, DRDO is planning for live trial or the maiden launch of Astra from Su-30.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2014 01:10

VEM Technologies (a key DRDO partner from the pvt sector, a SMB).. at Defexpo. Check out the missile airframes. One is the Nag, one clearly a new DRDO PGM (probably the 50 km range one) and another, a new missile (can anyone ID it)? These are representative models of the missiles VEM makes the precision engineered airframes for (examples to the right), so these are clearly actual designs.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2014 01:20

Note the above PGM is different from this new LGB module to be added to dumb bombs previously shown in Tech Focus.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2 ... 12_WEB.pdf

Also, the above pic clearly shows a laser seeker equipped one.

This basically makes it two known PGMs now known, in line from what we have been hearing periodically about tests etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2014 01:27

Now for more fun. Want a *third* PGM?

http://www.zeusnumerix.com/case_studies ... rial_store

Our customer is a premier defense establishment working for Indian Forces in developing state of the art armaments. They are engaged in precision strike capabilities by design & development of GPS/INS guidance and control kit for an air dropped store. For design of the guidance and control algorithm, aerodynamic coefficients of the store are required over the flight envelope possible during the guided flight. Even though, the semi-empirical DATCOM data-sheet was previously used for fixing store configuration, it fails to provide aerodynamic response of a maneuvering store with control surface (tail fins) deflection & orientation.


Image

And coming back to Astra, here is something from 2011. This was Astra MK2 configuration in 2011. Might still evolve further. Other pics of the exhibit showed MK2 written on the body.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 752532.JPG

Apparently well underway.
http://www.zeusnumerix.com/case_studies ... vr_missile

Our customer is a premier defense organization that develops state of the art missile systems. They are engaged with development of beyond visual-range air-to-air (BVR) missile. Being guided to hit a moving target, it undertakes high angle of attack maneuvers at supersonic speeds. It was thought that presence of external protrusions like wire tunnels and launch shoes may generates lateral instability making it difficult to guide the missile. In order to maintain control effectiveness through guidance algorithm, it was therefore, necessary to characterize the lateral forces and rolling moment on the missile at extreme flight conditions.

Zeus Numerix recommended high fidelity turbulent viscous CFD simulation of the missile as flow separation and its interference was expected due to presence of multiple control surfaces. Zeus Numerix opted for its proprietary pre-processor (GridZ­TM, structured multi-block mesh generator), CFD solver (FlowZ­TM, compressible & parallel) and post-processor (ViewZTM) modules of CFDExpert­TM for the simulations. The simulation matrix of 31 CFD runs, as well as grid independence and validation studies, was completed within two months on in-house parallel computing cluster.


Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2014 02:02

Pinaka Mk2 BTW:
http://www.zeusnumerix.com/case_studies ... nge_rocket

Our customer is a premier defense establishment engaged in enhancing the capabilities of Multi Barrel Rocket Launch system for Indian Forces. They are targeting to increase the range of current rockets by 50% through use of additional propellant and associated design modification....Customer was provided with aero-dynamics coefficients, surface pressure distribution, rocket deflection and Von-Mises stress distributions. The highly stressed region over the fin was modified by the customer by varying its thickness. Through this study our customer was able to prove the structural integrity of his rocket design while aiming for higher range and speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 13 Feb 2014 06:04

Rahul M wrote:JEM, polnocny class landing ship, osa missile boat, a nilgiri/leander I think.


Rahul,minor nitpick... the one with k72 written and sinks with bow upwards is ins sindhudurg a durg class corvette not osa class.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2014 07:32

those models look like astra and sudarshan to me.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby merlin » 13 Feb 2014 12:46

Singha wrote:those models look like astra and sudarshan to me.


Yes, extreme left one looks like the Astra Mk. 2 or variant to me as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 13 Feb 2014 20:22

Karan M wrote:VEM Technologies (a key DRDO partner from the pvt sector, a SMB).. at Defexpo. Check out the missile airframes. One is the Nag, one clearly a new DRDO PGM (probably the 50 km range one) and another, a new missile (can anyone ID it)?


I agree with Singha and merlin the middle one is not a new PGM but Sudrashan only and the missile on left looks like Astra mk.2. The PGM given in techfocus is most probably the one with a 50 Km range.

Karan M wrote:Now for more fun. Want a *third* PGM?


I think this is the same GPS-Laser PGM given in techfocus. The missile seems to be fitted with the tail unit only which houses the GPS guidance unit which would provide a CEP of 10 m or so and the additional laser unit will help to knock out moving targets. But on second thoughts the fin like protrusions in the front doesn't fit the shape of any dumb bomb in our inventory I remember of.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 13 Feb 2014 20:55

Nag material on that website also refers to an ab-initio ATGM, an ideas?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2014 23:29

Good eyes guys. So we seem to have a refined Astra MK2 in the display and Sudarshan.

The Techfocus kit being the same as Zeus Numerix - not convinced on that. If a seeker module was added, it'd make sense to CFD model the whole thing.

This might be a pure GPS/INS kit, like the basic JDAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 14 Feb 2014 02:29

I agree with Karan.
1. The PGM showed and described in the Zeus simulations looks like a JDAM-GPS equivalent. The tail unit provides guidance through GPS and inertial navigation as backup. The bracket for the body provides the strakes for stability and lift. The strakes would not be there if there was a nose unit. And Karan is right the simulations would create different results if the nose is present or not.
2. The PGM showed in the TechFocus is like a LJDAM-equivalent. That is a hybrid system of laser guidance provided through the nose assembly in addition to the tail unit discussed above. The nose unit itself has wings, and hence the body strakes are not required.

Therefore if the PGM showed on the website is Indian, it is definitely a 3rd PGM. However, all the pictures shown on the website are not from object being studied. They have not shown any project which has not been shown to the public. For example, they use pictures of B-2 and F-117 when they speak of stealth in AMCA.

P.S. This is a great company for people like me. This combines 2 of my greatest passions high performance computing and aerodynamics. Will keep an eye out.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 14 Feb 2014 03:20

VLS silos for launching BMos from subs is neccessary,as it offers extra weaponry to be carried in the tubes.A sub with VLS BMos missiles could also have ASW and other Klub variants launched form the tubes as well,depending upon the mission.The larger variant of BMos could have an extended range similar to Yakhont or heavier payload (wink,wink,nudge,nudge),while B-M,could stay within the 300km MTCR regime.How long it will take for B-M to be fully developed is the Q.Nevertheless,given the JV aspect of the missile,it would be unlikely that the Russians would allow it to be used aboard non-Russian or Indian designed subs.With the smaller variant being developed,it would be easier to accommodate VLS tubes between double-hulled subs too.

BMos-M's dimensions appear to make it poss. for the missile to be carried internally aboard the T-50/Pak-FA FGFAs too. This could be a real game changer when in service.The beauty of BMos-M is that it can be retrofitted onto almost all classes of warships and subs in the IN's inventory,replacing our Urans and legacy Styx missiles still in service.The Klubs could still be retained,as it would pose a secondary supersonic threat to enemy warships ,complicating the task of its missile defences .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 14 Feb 2014 05:00

If you want VLS in a submarine you need large platform i know you are going to say Amur but even russians scoff at the idea that Amur is large enough for 8 VLS cell, it is simply not practical. You need 2500+ Ton Displacement submarine platform for that purpose.

IMO if you want large VLS standoff capability with submarines your best bet is SSN platform like Arihant which easily be fitted with 32 Brahmos VLS and can move to target vicinity 4 times faster than a SSK and not to mention get out after launching payload where as SSK would be quite vulnerable to P-3 orion.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 14 Feb 2014 08:07

John,with an 8 cell VLS system,plus AIP,a conventional sub would arrive at the tonnage you've indicated.Packing it all into a 1650t sub would require especial ingenuity.However,for quite some time the non-AIP 8-cell Amur has been on display at various defexpos.

I agree with you on the SSGN alternative,the only factor being the price.I don't think that an SSGN based upon the ATV can be built for under a billion.The non-AIP Scorpenes which we are building, which cannot accommodate BMos or Klub,only Exocet, is ridiculously expensive.It is almost twice the cost of a Kilo and makes an N-boat look cheap.The Amur is supposed to come at a lower cost than even Kilos.If this is true,then a variant of it that meets the specs of the IN could be examined.The IN needs large numbers as well as capability.This can only come by increasing the number of cost-effective conventional AIP boats which can accommodate BMos.Now that the M version is being developed,our existing boats could be refitted with it.However,the addition of VLS would give a greater weapons load and a larger sub be able to carry out greater blue water ops.It is interesting that Oz wants a 3500t AIP sub for its future line to replace the Collins class.Years ago,there was even a proposed Kilo variant with an additional compartment for VLS Yakhont missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2014 08:14

the fat bomb is a glonass/ins guided weapon like jdam. but the high angle of attack release in description is surprising. all the videos I see of jdam and sdb have straight level release. perhaps a mjoelnir type low level ingress but lofted release at last moment to let the a.c approach safer is the idea in some cases.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 14 Feb 2014 09:00

arvin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:JEM, polnocny class landing ship, osa missile boat, a nilgiri/leander I think.


Rahul,minor nitpick... the one with k72 written and sinks with bow upwards is ins sindhudurg a durg class corvette not osa class.

I actually mistook the minesweeper for OSA and completely missed the corvette. (note to self : don't post when sleepy)

@ramana ji, I think it would be the pontoon since no IN sub in service has VLS AFAIK. there is one that was undergoing refit at vizag since mandhata's era but we have no idea if it is a testbed for new tech or just a normal refit.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 14 Feb 2014 10:22

Austin wrote:Shiv Aroor posted Defexpo video on Brahmos



The target ship was INS Sindhudurg (K72)---

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 14 Feb 2014 12:55

Credit Twinblade of Military photos forum

[img]http://i.imgur.com/9JNQ9Jo.jpg
Last edited by Rahul M on 21 Feb 2014 13:37, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: please do not post large images inline.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 14 Feb 2014 13:08


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 14 Feb 2014 13:10


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 14 Feb 2014 16:03

Can someone direct me to a site which lists the specific Indian input into Brahmos? The info I've seen so far is vague.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2014 17:58

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Can someone direct me to a site which lists the specific Indian input into Brahmos? The info I've seen so far is vague.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZfI3jFUiFKg/U ... ster-1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QnUyZJiApPM/U ... ster-3.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Nktv-us-dOw/U ... ster-2.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 14 Feb 2014 18:02

Thanks Karan, fabulous! I had no idea the Indian contribution was so sophisticated and varied. All I read was 'some software and avionics'.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 14 Feb 2014 19:25

Philip wrote:John,with an 8 cell VLS system,plus AIP,a conventional sub would arrive at the tonnage you've indicated.Packing it all into a 1650t sub would require especial ingenuity.However,for quite some time the non-AIP 8-cell Amur has been on display at various defexpos.

Philip a 8 VLS cell would weight more than entire torpedo payload of Amur and put into perspective even Virginia class SSN could only be retrofitted with 12 VLS without comprising performance that's half the weight of 8 cell Brahmos system. IMO the idea of fitting Amur with 8 vls is purely promotional and not practical remember the models of Su-30 carrying 3 Brahmos and Mig-29 carrying 1 Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2014 03:16

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Thanks Karan, fabulous! I had no idea the Indian contribution was so sophisticated and varied. All I read was 'some software and avionics'.


Its going to get even better.

The main criticism has been around the missile itself in that that much of the missile propulsion and seeker were still mostly imported & hence the missile itself was too expensive.

Now, that has led to DRDO launching a program to make an Indian seeker, visible here on its testbed along with a private partner, Datapatterns:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OF14r5vRpLI/U ... hMos-1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-U4YQF-uwpJA/U ... erns-1.JPG

http://www.hybiz.tv/Rangarajan---Data-P ... Ltd/176173

Supposedly, even the core propulsion will be built in India. That should bring costs down further.

Of course many of the above Indian developed systems will have a positive spin off for programs like the Nirbhay cruise missile as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 15 Feb 2014 08:33

John, probably having a working ramjet engine in itself is a hard task, using serpentine intakes as the airflow is slowed to subsonic speeds inside is stretching it

Its already said that the Brahmos is capable of ECM and ECCM, avoids radars by flying around their detection/tracking range, in a double hulled config, with the Brahmos-M inside a Brahmos airframe, they could attach ARM missiles around the inner airframe and release each one as a radar is detected along the flight path. This ARM missile is of the form factor of the Astra BVRAAM and is cued at launch by the main seeker on Brahmos.

some options could be,

a. subsonic stage having a turbojet with 'afterburner' to push the missile back to ramjet speeds as needed after the release of each submunition, drop the subsonic stage before the end game. For sub launch, a subsonic stage would give it longer range and between a 1.5ton Brahmos-M and 3ton current VLS config there is a lot of play
b. use a 'turboramjet' which is a single engine working in both subsonic and supersonic regimes, its probably a myth
c. using active flow control between the inner and the outer hulls to release the submunition at supersonic speeds.
Boeing, USAF show off supersonic bomb firing technology

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 19 Feb 2014 15:50

Tech Glitch:Agni-I Launch Postponed
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... wSM1PmSwpo

The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of the Army had to postpone the first night user trial of surface-to-surface nuclear capable ballistic missile Agni-I reportedly due to a technical glitch in the launcher positioned at Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast.
Earlier, the Armed Forces had planned to test fire the missile in full operational configuration in between 7 pm to 8 pm. Accordingly, the missile was integrated with the launcher and countdown had begun. Defence sources said the countdown was stopped midway following a snag in the mobile launcher.

While the missile was to be tested for the first time during night, DRDO scientists were eagerly waiting for a successful launch of the missile to prove that the weapon has the capability to be fired from any kind of terrain anytime.“The test has been postponed. Scientists are working to fix the problem. The test is likely to be carried out on Wednesday,” a defence official said refusing to divulge the details about the technical snag.

All tracking systems along with radars and telemetry equipments have been put in place to capture real time data.There were considerable improvements in its re-entry technology and maneuverability since Agni’s first trial. This test will reconfirm the technical parameters set for the user and check the Army’s readiness to use it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Feb 2014 19:38

Where is Nirbhay??? No testing done so for.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 19 Feb 2014 19:44

Also the Phase-2 ABM test, 2 months have passed since the original planned test date.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 20 Feb 2014 06:25

Agni-I night launch postponed for the second time due to 'technical glitch'.
The first-ever night user trial of the nuclear-weapons capable Agni-1 surface-to-surface ballistic missile on Wheeler island, off the Odisha coast, was postponed for a second time on Wednesday due to a “technical glitch.” Personnel of the Strategic Forces Command had originally planned the test-fire on Tuesday night.

The 15-metre tall, single stage solid-fuelled missile can carry a 1,000 kg payload up to a distance of 700 km. The next launch date would be decided later, DRDO sources said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Feb 2014 07:31

with none of our FOCed strategic missiles being cansister launched so far...they need to do multiple launches in driving monsoon storm, high winds and downpour...thats a must.

night is no real diff from day imo...except that wind and EM conditions in upper atmosphere might differ due to no sun.


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