Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

tushar_m

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 14 Apr 2014 12:20

India to conduct complex interceptor missile test

It will be conducted in exo-atmosphere at an altitude of 120-140 km over the Bay of Bengal on April 27 or 28

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 14 Apr 2014 13:20

tushar_m wrote:India to conduct complex interceptor missile test

It will be conducted in exo-atmosphere at an altitude of 120-140 km over the Bay of Bengal on April 27 or 28


Feel good to hear this, it has been long delayed and if it comes up good then we can say that DRDO has all the building blocks of 2-tier BMD and after few more test it will be deployed in next 2-3 years.

IMO talks with Israel hint us that DRDO is looking to build a integrated system like S-300 & 400, which has range of missile from 30-40Km(Akash) to 80-100(B-8 or MRSAM) to 300Km(LRSAM) with AAD and PDV as BMD.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2014 13:34

for cost & ownership reasons I think we should avoid trying to build "complexes" like the S300 or 400 with a zoo of launchers, radars and missile types and instead focus on 4 separate systems.

Spyder/Maitri as the SRSAM - mainly for IAF and IA mountain units
Akash & its successor as the MRSAM - IAF + IA
Barak8 as the LRSAM - IA
ABM - IAF

we also need a modern gun system to back up the Spyders and get rid of the old ZSU-23-4. its better this be mostly local.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 14 Apr 2014 14:04

Actually one way or other it may becomes an integrated or complex system. We are going for network centeric warfare. In that case all the radars and other systems from space to air to surface are all going to be integrated. Thus, in case of threat detection, airborne or ground, all the resources should be integrated to take down this threat. This can be done in seperate programmes or single programme, not sure about the cost which one will be more costlier.

AFA ownership is concern we can go for SFC or similar commmand.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby P Chitkara » 14 Apr 2014 15:44

err....for the benefit for people with lesser knowledge, what is so special about night testing?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srai » 14 Apr 2014 16:21

Singha wrote:...

Spyder/Maitri as the SRSAM - mainly for IAF and IA mountain units
Akash & its successor as the MRSAM - IAF + IA
Barak8 as the LRSAM - IA
ABM - IAF

...


Minor Correction: LRSAM will be with the IAF, not IA.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 14 Apr 2014 18:50

Singha wrote:for cost & ownership reasons I think we should avoid trying to build "complexes" like the S300 or 400 with a zoo of launchers, radars and missile types and instead focus on 4 separate systems.

Spyder/Maitri as the SRSAM - mainly for IAF and IA mountain units
Akash & its successor as the MRSAM - IAF + IA
Barak8 as the LRSAM - IA
ABM - IAF

we also need a modern gun system to back up the Spyders and get rid of the old ZSU-23-4. its better this be mostly local.


Spyder would also be used by IA to accompany armour and mechanized infantry for defense against attack helos and UAVs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2014 19:52

I believe Spyder or VLmica is not the type of system that is highly mobile on tracked vehicles and meant for that role...unlike SA6/Akash/Buk/Tor/Tunguska.
its truck mounted.
something like the tunguska is still needed to protect armour units or logistical convoys from ambush attacks by armed UAVs or helicopters.

US army never cared for this role in recent past due to massive air superiority. they would keep some F-16 flying around to deal with such threats and their own gunships had aim9 missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 15 Apr 2014 12:23

Singha wrote:I believe Spyder or VLmica is not the type of system that is highly mobile on tracked vehicles and meant for that role...unlike SA6/Akash/Buk/Tor/Tunguska.
its truck mounted.
something like the tunguska is still needed to protect armour units or logistical convoys from ambush attacks by armed UAVs or helicopters.

US army never cared for this role in recent past due to massive air superiority. they would keep some F-16 flying around to deal with such threats and their own gunships had aim9 missiles.


While SA6 and Akash are medium range, missiles of the Tor/Tunguska are short-range - so you are comparing different class of systems.

The Akash seems to be an overkill for most of the aerial threats an army formation would face. It pays the penalty in not being fully autonomous (it doesn't have a TELAR, so The Akash on T-72 chassis doesn't have integrated radar on the same chassis, so it isn't autonomous). Moreover, you only have three missiles on a launcher.

So - where does Maitri fit in ? My guess is it would be VL-Mica'ish, and as a missile-only replacement for Tunguska. For army version, they may squeeze in a radar and half a dozen missiles on a single tank chassis, making it more autonomous.

The airforce story is probably the weakest because for static defences, Akash offers more bang in terms of range and warhead.

In Navy, I suppose on corvettes or lesser ships, this would be a cheaper Barak-1 equivalent.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2014 12:29

Shhh...dont given ideas to DGMF...they will demand that Arjun launch a Manpad SAM from its gun, capable of intercepting crossing supersonic targets at 8km and withhold induction of mk2 until that is achieved.

tushar_m

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 17 Apr 2014 17:29

India Stocks Up On APFSDS

India has ordered 66,000 Russian 3VBM17 APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) shells for the 125mm guns on their T-90 tanks. Each of these shells will cost $6,556. The 3VBM17 entered service in 1986, weighs 20.4 kg (45 pounds) and employs a 4.85 kg (10.7 pound) tungsten penetrator that will go through 450mm of steel.


If i remember correctly there was some indigenous APFSDS rounds displayed 2 years back at an army display.

But now we are mass importing 3VBM17 i hope the indigenous round materializes .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28526 » 17 Apr 2014 22:03

Regarding Barak-8: when is it going to be operational? It is said 3-4 years? Will our new DDGs be without AD till then? This is very poor military planning.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shalav » 17 Apr 2014 23:49

^^ By whom?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 18 Apr 2014 21:45

i am a bit confused about the specification of the air launch Brahmos when compared to Air-Sol Moyenne Portée : the air launched nuke missile of France.
Both seem to have a range of 300 Km and around the same speed of Mach 3. But while the Brahmos in this spec weighs 1.5 tonne the ASMP weigh only .8 tonne and carries a punch of 150KT warhead.
I always thought Brahmos was some thing unique and world class with no match, but here it does not seem to be case.

Could someone please give me a better perspective in case I am wrong

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28526 » 18 Apr 2014 22:30

Shalav wrote:^^ By whom?


By whoever decided that the P-15 would be armed by the Barak-8 without the missile system being ready. They cut it too fine and lost. Now the Kolkata is ready to be commissioned without the Barak-8 and this ship was supposed to be the new generation multi role naval platform and carrier escort. Now even it will be a sitting duck.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shalav » 18 Apr 2014 22:56

^^ and the alternative to the Barak 8 was what?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 19 Apr 2014 01:27

dhiraj wrote:i am a bit confused about the specification of the air launch Brahmos when compared to Air-Sol Moyenne Portée : the air launched nuke missile of France.
Both seem to have a range of 300 Km and around the same speed of Mach 3. But while the Brahmos in this spec weighs 1.5 tonne the ASMP weigh only .8 tonne and carries a punch of 150KT warhead.


ASMP doesn't have large onboard seeker, booster or additional fuel for final terminal maneuvering (not needed for engaging ground targets but required for evading ship's defenses.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28526 » 20 Apr 2014 09:51

Shalav wrote:^^ and the alternative to the Barak 8 was what?


Was there no other alternative at that time? or in development?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2014 10:29

dhiraj wrote:i am a bit confused about the specification of the air launch Brahmos when compared to Air-Sol Moyenne Portée : the air launched nuke missile of France.
Both seem to have a range of 300 Km and around the same speed of Mach 3. But while the Brahmos in this spec weighs 1.5 tonne the ASMP weigh only .8 tonne and carries a punch of 150KT warhead.
I always thought Brahmos was some thing unique and world class with no match, but here it does not seem to be case.

Could someone please give me a better perspective in case I am wrong

With a 150 kt nuclear warhead pinpoint accuracy as achieved by Brahmos is unnecessary. Brahmos will be used in an anti-ship and anti-bunker role in any conflict. ASMP will not be used at all unless a nuclear war occurs.

ASMP should be compared with Prithvi or Agni in terms of envisaged role.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pankajs » 20 Apr 2014 11:45

crosspost
----------->
Country will test missile shield next week: DRDO

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 991171.cms
BHUBANESWAR: In a boost to the defence sector, the country is all set to test its anti-ballistic missile defence system for long range (beyond 100 km) off Odisha coast for the first time next week. This will be followed by trial of cruise missile Nirbhay (whose maiden test had failed last year) and air-to-air missile Astra next month, Avinash Chander, scientific adviser to defence minister, said here on Saturday.
Chander said DRDO is also preparing to test Nirbhay, a sub-sonic cruise missile which flunked maiden test in March last year, early next month off Odisa coast. Nirbhay (which means fearless) is India's equivalent to America's Tomahawk and Pakistan's Babur. DRDO will also test-fire Astra, the beyond visual range air-to-air single stage and solid-fuelled missile, from an aircraft. The 3.8-metre Astra is the smallest DRDO-developed missile.

"Both are having unique capabilities. Astra will be tested for the first time from an Su-30 aircraft. These two tests will be carried out between Chandipur and Wheeler Island in next 15 to 20 days", Chander said. Sources said if Astra is successfully fired, India will break into elite group of nations, including the US, France, Russia and Israel, possessing such missiles. The missiles are capable of engaging ultra-modern supersonic fighter jets. Astra can carry a 15-kg high-explosive warhead.

tushar_m

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 20 Apr 2014 21:05

Mention of astra firing from Su 30 mki seems awesome.

Any guess at the range for which the missile will be tested :?: :?: :?:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shalav » 21 Apr 2014 21:12

kaizanin wrote:
Shalav wrote:^^ and the alternative to the Barak 8 was what?


Was there no other alternative at that time? or in development?


LoL, you're the one who said it was poor planning, you should know if there was an alternative before you make that statement - obviously you have no idea, and your statement shows it.

So what was the the point of the rant? To my mind it's just useless hot air, no value-add, and ignorant of facts.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Apr 2014 08:19

was this video linked here earlier?

feb 2014?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 22 Apr 2014 14:34

In addition to Brahmos & Nirbhay, would be great of have an indigenous ASMP-A kind of 2 mach missile armed with TN-81 like Thermonuclear warhead which has actual capability of 300 kt.

Even Tejas + M2ks armed with it can launch 400 of these missile on porkis obliterating them. No need even to bother Agni-Shaurya-Prithvi stocks; keep them for cheenis.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 23 Apr 2014 20:14

India test fires Akash missile in Odisha


BHUBANESWAR: India on Wednesday test fired its Akash surface-to-air missile from a defence base in Odisha, an official said.

The indigenously developed missile, with a 27-km range and an effective ceiling of 15km, was test fired from the Integrated Test Range of Chandipur in the coastal district of Balasore, 230km from here.

"It was a trial by the Indian Air Force," test range director M V K V Prasad told IANS.

The 700-kg all-weather missile can carry a 60-kg warhead at speeds of up to Mach 2.5. It can operate autonomously and simultaneously engage and neutralize different aerial targets.

It can be launched from static or mobile platforms, enabling flexible deployment by the armed forces.

Developed by DRDO, Akash is being produced by Bharat Dynamics Limited as the nodal production agency with the involvement of Bharat Electronics Limited and a large number of other industries.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 24 Apr 2014 09:56

Hemant rout reports that Akash missed the target

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 185940.ece

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Apr 2014 10:55

if the target was manouvering hard, I think misses are fairly common in SAMs and AAMs.

tushar_m

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 24 Apr 2014 11:49

i always thought that SAMs are to be fired in salvos

for that 3 missile per launcher seems low . Are there any programs of DRDO to increase the number of missiles per launcher ???

or to introduce a new launcher itself

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23891 » 24 Apr 2014 12:41

PTA maneuvers are so hard for the missile to reach at the desired proximity to explode and destroy it? This failed test raise lot of questions on it's credibility.

IMO The speed of Aakash 2.5 mach is also seems less vis a vis its range for any maneuverable mach2 AC. Seniors may help me clear my doubt if I am wrong.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 24 Apr 2014 13:04

^^^ there could be a whiplash maneuver by the towed target mimicking the most difficult of maneuvers by the targeted aircraft.

The flight profile of the targets have never been told, I think in any of the tests. Doubt if they ever will be.

Image

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/rpav_jindivik.html
An onboard winch system was devised that could send out one of two infra-red flares on the end of a 200ft (61m) wire rope. The flare then becomes the hot target for the incoming heat- seeking missile. After the 'hostile' aircraft has expended its missile, the spent flare is wound in and the second flare is trailed out for a repeat performance.

<snip>

Since June, the principal weapons officers have had to be content with tracking targets towed by civilian Learjets on lines up to nine kilometres long. (Other countries have been a bit more daring, shooting at targets streamed from aircraft on short lines. Unfortunately, some managed to shoot down the tow plane.) :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Apr 2014 13:09

they use crossing, approaching and receding targets at various speed and height to simulate aircraft or CMs attacking the akash bubble.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 24 Apr 2014 15:08

Crossing targets too can be expected to be difficult to track. Or probably the Towed Target Unit malfunctioned in some manner. Dekho kya hota hai.

The slower missile maneuverable up to 15g loads (most likely at heights) and bigger warhead give me confidence that Akash would otherwise be very difficult to avoid within its 20-25 km bubble.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 24 Apr 2014 17:07

Praval wrote:PTA maneuvers are so hard for the missile to reach at the desired proximity to explode and destroy it? This failed test raise lot of questions on it's credibility.

IMO The speed of Aakash 2.5 mach is also seems less vis a vis its range for any maneuverable mach2 AC. Seniors may help me clear my doubt if I am wrong.


Most of the SAMs have a powered phase (where the rocket motor burns) and a coasting phase. Once the motor shuts off, any maneuvering to follow the target bleeds energy. So - high initial energy is an essential pre-requisite.

Akash is powered through out the envelope, so it is sustained velocity, and a maneuvering target is less likely to avoid the missile. Though, being ramjet powered, its maneuveres will be limited so that the engines are not starved of air.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 24 Apr 2014 22:47

deleted

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 25 Apr 2014 05:28

The IN did not "cut it fine".The DDGs are 4 years behind schedule.It is the Israelis who have failed to deliver and I find it peculiar that while they have installed B-8 recently on their warship/s,we have to wait for a few years more before we get our missiles! That sound to me a funny JV .Secondly,the choice of B-8,still under development while Aster and other SAMs were readily available.Apart from the Russia RIF missiles,even the US SM-2/3 series would've been an excellent choice.These have ABM capabilities too.The US had offered us AEGIS tech so there is the definite possibility that had we asked for an SM missile the request would've found a positive response.

However,well knowing that the delay in warship delivery was stretching to 4 years,it is a legitimate Q as to why the IN did not have a plan "B" ready for the first batch of Kokattas? There has also been no public attempt to pull up the Israeli JV partner for Israel's delays while criticism of delays by other nations and their manufacturers has been healthy.Russia for the Gorshkov/Vik,IJT engine,etc.,Britain for Hawk components,France for the Scorpene ,Italy for the AW VVIP helo scandal,which does not suggest a level playing field.

The ultimate blame must rest with the asinine Def. Min who was deaf to the please of the services for speedy decisions regarding critical issues.It was just last month that the Barak-1 decision was taken,where IN warships were about to go defenceless against anti-ship missiles as the old lot of B-1 missiles had to be replaced and new ones also required for new warships in the pipeline.
Surely he would've "red flagged" the delay ,as he was so prone to do with acquisitions suspecting malfeasance and the top priority of all during his tenure,to keep his dhoti spotless white. His dereliction of duty to see that the IN's warships and subs were in fine fettle,fighting fit,well stocked with spares and munitions,projects on time and within budget and crucial decisions taken asap,has cost the nation dear,the loss of the SRakshak,precious lives lost in other accidents,and a huge drop in morale of the service after dumping his responsibility and dereliction of duty upon the navy chief and anyone else but himself,leading to the chief's resignation and delaying the decision on his successor for so long (he was too busy politicking in GOC)that when it was taken another V.Adm. and chief of W.Command resigned in protest!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23891 » 25 Apr 2014 13:56

Thank You srin sir.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 25 Apr 2014 18:27

The failure seem to be of a few meters, indeed good we test, they are meant to identify weaknesses, I am sure fixes can be implemented quickly, must have been a tricky target to shoot down.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 25 Apr 2014 19:09

srin wrote:Akash is powered through out the envelope, so it is sustained velocity, and a maneuvering target is less likely to avoid the missile. Though, being ramjet powered, its maneuveres will be limited so that the engines are not starved of air.

Akash ramjet engine has burn time of only around 18 seconds hence the range of around 25 km no different than for example Shtil which is solid fueled and has burn time of 12 seconds but has much higher top speed hence the 35 km range. One of the reasons Russians replaced SA-6 with SA-11 and IMO we should focusing on getting improved Akash out asap. Army/AF has given the $$ with akash orders DRDO need to take initiative and push it out.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 25 Apr 2014 21:11

Tests must fail so people can find bugs. Or else bugs may surface when they are least wanted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 25 Apr 2014 23:26

Akash booster has burn time of 5-7 secs and booster has burn time of 24 secs.


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