Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Mar 2014 20:11

Isn't K4 supposed to be >3K Km ?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 25 Mar 2014 20:42

In a significant step towards completing the nuclear triad available with a few nations, India has successfully test-fired a nuclear-capable ballistic missile launched from an underwater platform with a range of over 2,000 kms.

Wow, quite an underwater platform. What is the range of the missile?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Mar 2014 20:49

SSridhar wrote:Isn't K4 supposed to be >3K Km ?

over 2000km can be >3K km also.

nash · Post by **nash** » 25 Mar 2014 21:09

AFAIR there was one article has quote from, i think, Mr chander, where he said that first test of K-4 would be around 1.5k, not for full range.

seems like they have tested for 2K this time in a very hush-hush mode, again no photo so far. It also may proved that missile testing was on hold because of multi-nation plane search mission.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 25 Mar 2014 21:29

Singha wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Isn't K4 supposed to be >3K Km ?
over 2000km can be >3K km also.

Seems to be a new way of obfuscating actual range of missile in order not to rattle Khan.

Actually Agni's range is only over 1 KM now.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 25 Mar 2014 21:33

Yay! That's a great news. This looks like much awaited pseudo official K-4 test.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2014 21:37

SS, This is a pontoon launch. And its 2K Km range which is the shorter trajectory to proof the basis systems.
The big possibility is Arihant might carry a mixed load.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 25 Mar 2014 21:38

From dingi to AC of 25 countries are in Hind Mahasager.......phir be test kiya.........wah wah kya konfidense hei.

Will · Post by **Will** » 26 Mar 2014 04:24

ramana wrote:Hat tip to Arun_S for the range of the K-4.

Anyone know if Arun_S is posting anywhere these days? He really had the goods on missiles years in advance.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2014 04:29

He is on India Forum when he gets time.

Anyway no updates from usual experts on the new missile test? No press conf about how it performed nominally etc.

I am interested in this one for it is a game changer.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2014 07:04

Conflicting media reports.However,these appear to be the facts.The pontoon was about 8km off the Vizag coast when the missile was fired (an old idea of mine to have UW mobile missile barges until we have enough SSBNs) ,one report said that the missile was the "0-5,1M dia" one,with both strategic and tactical warheads ,but another clearly said that it was the longer ranged version with a range of "over 2000km",which had yet to be tested from the ATV. "Over 2000km" is a hint that it has longer legs.Once a few tests have been conducted from the Arihant,and the sub complete her sea trials,she will be ready for operational deployment.

The massive Chinese "hunt" for the missing MH aircraft is actually a PLAN seized opportunity to exercise her aircraft ships and subs in the IOR,ostensibly to look for the aircraft,a legitimate action,which would otherwise invite sharp criticism and alarm littoral IOR nations .They can keep on using this excuse for quite some time! The request to India to 'search" in the A&N region was another trial balloon sent up to survey the andamans Sea.

The task before us is now to accelerate N-sub production and clear the SSN/SSGN production too in a second line,possibly at L&T's shipyard.This will take at least 3-4 years after clearance,which would require us to acquire another 2 Akula-2s from Russia on lease/whatever,in the interim to maintain a robust N-sub capability against intruding PLAN N-subs,supposedly operating on "anti-piracy duties"!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Mar 2014 07:37

^ Two reasons why it is not K-15/B-05 test two days back. The 'over 2000 Km' range is a certain giveaway that it is not K-15. Secondly, the K-4 test was expected early 2013, later towards end of 2013. It has happened now.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 26 Mar 2014 15:04

Great news, hmm

K-4 also a hybrid missile with 3500km range, lower altitude cieling and hypersonic cruise tracjectory guessing speeds of mach mach 8+ ( with terminal steep dive maneuvers. Could just be the deadliest missile for strategic needs in the world.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2014 18:23

The coming challenge.The admiral is mistaken.60-70 subs for a "regional power" is a lot he says,but China does not think of itself as a regional power ,but a future superpower which will overtake the US!

China to have nuclear missiles on subs soon: US admiral
http://news.yahoo.com/china-nuclear-mis ... 08006.html

Washington (AFP) - China for the first time will likely have subs equipped with long-range nuclear missiles later this year, part of an increasingly potent submarine fleet, a top US officer said Tuesday,

The head of US Pacific Command, Admiral Samuel Locklear, said the latest class of Chinese subs would be armed with a new ballistic missile with an estimated range of 4,000 nautical miles (7,500 kilometers).

"This will give China its first credible sea-based nuclear deterrent, probably before the end of 2014," Locklear told the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Locklear was referring to the production of China's JIN-class nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine and the new JL-2 missile on board the vessel.

"China’s advance in submarine capabilities is significant. They possess a large and increasingly capable submarine force," the admiral said.

In October, Chinese state media for the first time showed images of the country's nuclear-powered submarines, touting it as a "credible second-strike nuclear capability."

Locklear said China's submarine modernization effort was impressive.

"I think they'll have in the next decade or so a fairly well modernized force of probably 60 to 70 submarines which is a lot of submarines for a regional power," he said.

China now has five nuclear attack submarines, four nuclear ballistic missile submarines, and 53 diesel attack submarines, according to Jess Karotkin of the Office of Naval Intelligence.

China's production of submarines has moved at a quick annual pace. Between 1995 and 2012, Beijing produced 2.9 submarines a year, according to the Congressional Research Service.

Locklear, repeating the Pentagon's view of China's military profile, said Beijing is investing in new weapons and naval power in part "to deny US access to the Western Pacific during a time of crisis or conflict and to provide the means by which China can bolster its broad maritime claims in the region."

He added that Chinese military operations were "expanding in size, complexity, duration and geographic location."

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 26 Mar 2014 18:44

India Test fires Missile from Underwater Platform

India successfully test-fired a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) of its most ambitious ‘K’ series from an underwater platform off the Visakhapatanam coast. The 750-km range missile, codenamed B-05, was reportedly launched from a submerged pontoon in full operational configuration on Monday.

The user associate launch was conducted by the defence personnel in association with Indian Navy. Defence sources said the pontoon was positioned inside the sea, about 8 km from Visakhapatnam coastline. The missile was fired from 20-metre deep water.

Developed by DRDO, B-05 is about 10 metres long with one metre diameter. Its launch weight is about 10 tonnes. This missile uses solid propellant. It can carry a conventional payload of about 500 kg. Tactical nuclear warhead can also be fitted to it.

Tested several times earlier, the missile is ready for induction. This is said to be second user associate launch of the missile which would propel the armed forces to go for the first user trial of the missile.

Launched underwater, it surges to the surface and is the world’s best weapon in this class. The DRDO has begun its production. After its induction, the missile will equip the country’s first nuclear-powered submarine ANS Arihant.

“This missile has got both the versions __ SLBM and SLCM (submarine-launched cruise missile). While cruise missile is a loose trajectory missile guided to its destination by an onboard computer, ballistic has a high-trajectory and transcends the atmosphere to re-enter from above the targeted site,” a defence scientist said.

The DRDO was focusing on the success of the missile as only a few countries have the triad of firing nuclear-tipped missiles from air, land and undersea. Other countries, which have the capability, include Russia, the US, France, the UK and China.

The source further said that the Navy has reportedly been insisting on the test of B-05’s cruise variant as it is difficult to be obstructed and has pinpoint accuracy. It engages in a series of terminal manoeuvres designed to defeat enemy missile defences.

Sources said the DRDO would soon test this missile from a submarine to gauge its effectiveness.

This test, the source indicated, would pave the way for the maiden trial of K-4 missile, which has a strike range of nearly 3,000 km.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 26 Mar 2014 20:01

Was the pontoon used to fire both the ~2000 km SLCM & the 750 km B-05/K-15 in quick succession? I understand SLCM/SLBM options present on all K family missiles.

Even B-05 on a 750 km ballistic trajectory could be taken to mean ~1800 km full range.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2014 21:59

SS, Philip and Klaus, The New Ind Exp article by Rout claims its the B05 that was tested with the IN user for second time. So could be precursor to the Arihant trials. The confuser is the 2K km range which was initially stated. Inn retrospect with all the flotillas looking for MH-370 it doesnt make sense to trial the K-4. A NoKo type of action.
Besides user trials of the K-15 is more useful for Arihant deployment.

Also pay attention to the payload weight of 500kg. This is less than the Agony series.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2014 22:03

It just struck me. The 2K range is in CM mode. This is what was trialled on Monday!!!!

nash · Post by **nash** » 26 Mar 2014 22:29

As per wiki, K-15 can go up to 1.9K with lesser payload. They may be trying some similar configuration

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 26 Mar 2014 22:56

Septimus P. wrote:Great news, hmm K-4 also a hybrid missile with 3500km range, lower altitude cieling and hypersonic cruise tracjectory guessing speeds of mach mach 8+ ( with terminal steep dive maneuvers. Could just be the deadliest missile for strategic needs in the world.

Sir Isn't Mach 8+hypersonic. Few days back there were articles in IDRW that US and China are testing such vehicles(http://idrw.org/?p=35020). Are we that far ahead of rest of the world or am I missing something.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2014 23:51

ranjan, Those are different configuration vehicles. They usually have a first stage and are sent of forward at hypersonic speed. The Shourya and K15 the whole vehicle from second sage onwards goes. No wings as it depends on lifting body.

See this:
BGRV and Indian Missiles:ArunS

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 Mar 2014 01:03

Ramanaji: this is good news & confusing news at the same time (typical of a Rout report)

a) If B05 has a 2K range, then its not as short-legged as it was made out to be. We had suspected the higher range all along & its good to get this confirmation

b) If this was a depressed trajectory test, shouldnt the range be *shorter* than the ballistic range? I would have thunk that B05 would have a 750 KM range while cruising & 2000 KM range when going ballistic. This is confusing

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 27 Mar 2014 01:26

It appears to have been K-4 with over 2000 km range. Even then, this is not a NoKo like act. We would have certainly issued relevant NOTAM and NAVAREA warnings well in advance (unlike what NoKo does at times).

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 27 Mar 2014 05:23

I think its 2000km in the ballistic mode and 750km in suppressed atmospheric flight for K15

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 27 Mar 2014 09:16

Thanks for clarifying Ramana ji. Very perceptive to think of NoKo like aggression. What this test implies is that the SLBM/SLCM program covers every possible range & warhead combination possible.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 Mar 2014 10:49

vic wrote:OFB idiots will turn the screw counter clockwise instead of clockwise and then we will pay USD one billion dollar again for new set of screw drivers and components.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 Mar 2014 10:51

Will wrote:
ramana wrote:Hat tip to Arun_S for the range of the K-4.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 28 Mar 2014 04:16

Coming to think of it, the missile program is the only sphere of national activity where things were not very bad during the UPA II govt.

2009-2014 saw

5 Agni I tests
6 Agni II tests (2 failures in 2009)
3 Agni III tests
4 developmental tests of Agni 4 (including the initial failed Agni II+ flight)
2 developmental tests of Agni V

This is not very bad. In addition, we seem to have had

1 longer range SLBM (K-4) test
several K-15 tests.

Still, it would be nice if we did better: like having missile testing at the rate of one strategic missile a month, with more emphasis on longer range missiles. Also, one hopes that GoI clears the Agni VI in the future after operationalizing Agni-V at the earliest. Hopefully, the coming election gives a stable NDA Govt. that does the needful.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Mar 2014 04:50

India needs for next 72 months one missile test per month. This is to take care of the external threat perception which will subside after that.

Every 6 mths there has to be one A VI test.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2014 05:49

ramdas, To proof out a total vehicle system one needs four tests with repeatable parameters. After that one needs a number of tests to give statistical confidence. Now consider that Agni series has common components:stages, guidance, separation systems, whatnot, all these add to the overall reliability of the delivery system.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 28 Mar 2014 08:24

Ramanaji,

That was true of Agni -I and II, which seem to have a lot in common with ISRO systems. Agni III uses similar systems, going by one of Dr. Avinash Chander's interviews to Frontline, except that the 2m dia means that A-III's systems cannot be exactly the same as that of A-I, II.

A-IV and A-V are new generation systems with different propulsion systems (2m dia vs 1m dia). Only some electronic components could possibly be common for these systems.

It seems that after three successful development flights, SFC starts periodic testing. Very likely that one is tested from each (small) production lot. These tests have now started happening once a year for each system for the past 2 years. What I meant is that we should increase the frequency of tests to once every 6 months for each system. When A-VI comes into the picture, we will then be doing a test every month or so…

In retrospect, I speculate that the A-II failures in 2009 opened many eyes to the need for regular testing. Hopefully, the new GoI (whoever it is) also realizes the need for testing a TN about whose success there is no dispute within our strategic community and without…..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Mar 2014 11:03

India successfully tests nuclear-capable Prithvi-II missile - ToI

India successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable Prithvi-II surface-to-surface missile from a military base in Odisha on Friday, a senior official said.

The indigenously-developed ballistic missile with a maximum range of 350 km was fired from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in Balasore district, about 230 km from Bhubaneswar.

"It was a perfect launch. It met all mission objectives," test range director M V K V Prasad told IANS.

The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of the Indian Army conducted the test as part of a regular training exercise," he said.

Prithvi is India's first indigenously-built ballistic missile. It is one of the five missiles being developed under the country's Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme.

The battlefield missile, with flight duration of 483 seconds and a peak altitude of 43.5 km, can carry a 500-kg warhead.

The missile has features to deceive anti-ballistic missiles and uses an advanced inertial guidance system with manoeuvring capabilities and reaches its target within a few metres of accuracy.

It has a higher lethal effect compared to equivalent missiles in the world. Scientists say the accuracy has already been demonstrated in the past in the development flight trials.
P

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Mar 2014 16:15

SO silently Prithvi II range increases from 250Km to 350KM and is now in the Inventory of IA and not IAF?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2014 20:46

ramdas, In stages first stage is most important as it provides the largest component of the thrust budget. And ground tests are good enough for that. Whether 2m or 1m its the propellant formulation that is getting tested. The DRDO tests are the development tests and the SFC tests are the repeated flights for statistical and user experience.

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Mar 2014 22:32

So if in cruise mode K4 has a range of 2000 km then in ballistic mode it may have a range of 5000km with 500kg payload.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Mar 2014 03:41

And 12 000 km with 50 grams.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2014 17:42

Concerned about global trends, India is making progress in building its space defense capabilities.

India and Space Defense

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 30 Mar 2014 20:18

What was mostly launched ? K4 or B05 ?
Prasanna

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2014 05:25

B05 based on re-reading Hemant Rout. It was launched by SFC personnel with DRDO in the cruise mode wih 2K km range and 500 kg maal.

----

Besides I don't see the point of testing K-4 when the more urgent need is to proof the Arihant and get it going on deterrent patrols. The user invovlement in the test inidcates it something getting ready for the Arihant which means its the B05 that was tested in its long range mode.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 31 Mar 2014 05:39

it was probably K-4 going by the NOTAM (which is likely to be similar to what somebody posted on this forum). B-05 has only a 700 km range in a full cruise mode and about 2000 km range in a ballistic mode with a very light payolad (going by what Arun_S has written on this topic).