Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

sanjaykumar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Dec 2013 03:36

Okay dudes, his first language is obviously not Hindustani. I am sure he speaks it better than some of us speak Telugu etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vipul » 17 Dec 2013 05:34

US anti-tank missile Javelin in face-off with Israel's Spike.

The United States is rising steadily up the list of India's top military suppliers. The ministry of defence (MoD) is finalising a decision to allow the FGM-148 Javelin missile, built by US companies Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, into a contest to supply the Indian Army with anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM).

This is bad news for Israeli company, Rafael Advanced Defence Systems, whose Spike ATGM was poised to be awarded the contract for 8400 missiles for India's 350-odd infantry battalions, estimated to be worth Rs 9,300 crore ($1.5 billion). When India floated a tender, only Rafael had offered a missile that met the army's requirements. Now the Javelin is on offer and an interested MoD wants it to compete with Spike.

On November 11, the MoD's apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) debated whether to buy the Spike. Eventually, it shied away from a single-vendor purchase, though a "global technology scan" that the military carried out earlier this year found no comparable option. Now, with the Javelin on offer, albeit as a latecomer, the game has changed.

The US Department of Defense (the Pentagon) has offered the Javelin in two separate letters to the MoD this year. As Business Standard first reported (September 17, "US offers to co-develop new Javelin missile with India") the Pentagon has sweetened its offer with a proposal to co-manufacture the Javelin in India, and to partner the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) in co-developing an advanced version of the missile for the future.

The Pentagon has offered the Javelin under the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme. This implies it would be contracted directly between the Pentagon and the MoD, with the Pentagon negotiating terms with Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, and charging India 3.8 per cent of the contract amount as a fee. The MoD, wary of procurement scams, believes FMS contracts are relatively clean and increasingly favours this route. The C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft, bought for Rs 25,000 crore ($4.12 billion) was an FMS contract; the on-going purchase of M777 artillery guns is also through the FMS route.

The Javelin offer also benefited from the personal advocacy of the recently retired US defence secretary, Ashton Carter, who lobbied forcefully during his visit to New Delhi on September 17.

"(The Javelin) is being offered to no other country but India", Carter told the media in New Delhi.

MoD has declined to comment on this proposal, but officials privately term the offer "unprecedented". US equipment has always been bought over-the-counter. Now the offer to co-manufacture the third-generation (i.e. "fire-and-forget") Javelin ATGM could bring in US best practices in high-tech manufacture. Meanwhile, the DRDO is evaluating the proposal to co-develop the fourth-generation missile, an offer that the US has not made even to its closest allies.

The Javelin, which has seen extensive combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, is regarded as the world's premier man-portable, anti-tank missile. It allows infantrymen, who are often vulnerable to enemy tanks, a weapon to destroy tanks from four kilometres away.

If the Javelin were superior to the Spike, as US officials claim, it would also be more expensive. The Pentagon's co-manufacture and co-development offer seeks to compensate for that higher cost.

Yet, the army is frustrated at the stalling of the Spike purchase, which was being finalised after extensive trials. The army has now asked the DRDO to co-develop an ATGM with an international partner. Since defence procurement rules require the DRDO to select a development partner through competitive bidding, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon might have to compete with Rafael, and possibly other global vendors as well.

MoD sources welcome the prospect of US companies competing with other vendors to partner India in missile co-development. "The more vendors that compete, the better the deal for India", says an official.

Missile co-development with Israel has been plagued with glitches in the past. The Indo-Israeli Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM) and Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MR-SAM) projects are running years behind schedule.

Meanwhile, Washington-based sources tell Business Standard that the Pentagon plans to make the Javelin offer even more attractive. Declining to provide details, they say the MoD will soon hear the specifics.

Washington had not offered India the Javelin when the MoD first floated a global tender for ATGMs. The Pentagon was eager but the State Department argued that equipping India so lavishly would "alter the regional military balance". With the US-India engagement maturing, the State Department is now fully on board. Indian Army missile pilots had fired the Javelin several times during US-India joint exercises and were impressed by its performance. Nevertheless, the Javelin would be comprehensively trial-evaluated, as the Spike has been. That will only begin when an FMS request is processed between Washington and New Delhi.

With over Rs 50,000 crore ($8 billion) worth of orders already on its books, America is closing in on another Rs 30,000 crore ($5 billion) worth of arms sales to India. These include six C-130J Super Hercules tactical transport aircraft; 22 AH-64D Apache attack helicopters; 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopters; and 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers. The Javelin could now swell that tally.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 17 Dec 2013 06:57

After the successful trials of Nag with modified sensor able to hit targets at 4km and Helina able to hit target at 7km, there is no need to go for a man portable system which weighs 22.3 kg. Rather than going with this circus of trials and foreign stuff, the three year time frame can be provided for DRDO to come up with the Manportable version of Nag in the next three years. Army better work with DRDO in this regard to develop the man portable Nag.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srai » 17 Dec 2013 07:25

^^^

Going by past lengthy foreign procurement process, it is wise for DRDO to continue to R&D domestic alternatives. Take for example, 155mm howitzer purchase that has failed to materialise even after more than a decade and 4 rounds of trials. Had the DRDO been allowed to R&D 155mm howitzer guns it would probably have been ready for induction by now.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 17 Dec 2013 08:26

Agni-III test tomorrow..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Dec 2013 08:48

Its MMS last baksheesh to khan.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2013 08:57

well, when was the successful 7km target destruction happened? links?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 17 Dec 2013 09:11

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... -programme
Defence sources said, "For hitting the target, a launching pad was made in Pokhran field firing range. Helina's target was set 7km from the launching pad. The target was fired from launching pad and was hit successfully."

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2013 09:15

awesome!.. what is more important in that news bit is this:
An air-launched, 10-km range variant will be launched from tactical interdiction aircraft like the upgraded Jaguar IS. It has a nose-mounted mill metric-wave active radar seeker,"

i hope they are telling the truth.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 17 Dec 2013 09:19

ramana wrote:Its MMS last baksheesh to khan.

There will be few more..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Dec 2013 11:22

vic wrote:Karan you forgot to add that while Army wanted DRDO to produce a 4th Gen system, it continued to buy 2nd Gen ATGMs license assembled by BDL.


There we go again with stupid line of argument...and I'm deliberately using the word here. Because it has been stated up-teem times that Nag has no equivalent in Indian Army's current inventory. IA using 2nd generation man-portable ATGM has nothing to do with induction of otherwise of Nag. Had the development of Nag been linked to replacement of in service man-portable ATGM, it would have died a quick death before anybody realized what happened.

Next time you decide to 'protest' against any act of commission or omission by MOD or Services, at least use correct data points to make your case.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 17 Dec 2013 11:24

sanjaykumar wrote:Okay dudes, his first language is obviously not Hindustani. I am sure he speaks it better than some of us speak Telugu etc.


You mean Hindi right? or Malayalam is not Hindustani? You will be disappointed if you ever take a Hindi, Sanskrit test with me. In addition I will challenge you in Punjabi and Bhojpuri too. :lol:

Ok, the LR-SAM project seems to be on track despite the bad news flowing over ToT etc.

Radar integration begins on Indian Navy Ship for LR-SAM tests

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Dec 2013 11:34

uddu wrote:After the successful trials of Nag with modified sensor able to hit targets at 4km and Helina able to hit target at 7km, there is no need to go for a man portable system which weighs 22.3 kg. Rather than going with this circus of trials and foreign stuff, the three year time frame can be provided for DRDO to come up with the Manportable version of Nag in the next three years. Army better work with DRDO in this regard to develop the man portable Nag.


Even the DRDO has not tabled any proposal - that we know of in public domain - to develop a man-portable ATGM.

And what is the issue with the weight? The weight is combined weight of missile and command launch unit with CLU being detachable. A two man team can easily carry the missile. As compared to this, the NAG itself weighs 40+ Kg. So, any comparison is moot.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Paul » 17 Dec 2013 11:38

With the US-India engagement maturing, the State Department is now fully on board. Indian Army missile pilots had fired the Javelin several times during US-India joint exercises and were impressed by its performance.


Per Ajai Shukla, Raytheon technicians were embedded with the US army team during the joint exercises in Jhansi to "suitably impress" the India army with it;s performance.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Dec 2013 11:56

Karan M wrote:<SNIP>- Army wanted Nag to be deployed by recce and support battalions of mechanized infantry. Hence wheeled option of carried was ruled out. Also, had to be top attack. also meant BMP2 as that's what mechanized infantry employ<SNIP>


Now, this is a bit intriguing for me.

Assuming the development of Nag was started in early 80s, Indian Army was just about in the process of mechanization on large scale. Further, I think the R&S Battalions (from Guards and Mechanized Infantry) were created in mid-80s and were allotted to the RAPIDs - of which we had a grand total of 4 for a very long time.

Which is a very low base to develop a dedicated ATGM like Nag.

My guess is that we planned to have higher number of such R&S battalions under Army Plan 2000 which called for full mechanization of the army but of which nothing came about.

As per my calculation, we have somewhere around 8-9 R&S Battalions with some of them in completely wheeled role. The tracked R&S Battalions are a candidate for the Nag+NAMICA combination.

25th Mechanized Infantry (Recce & Support) (wheele)

Image

23 Mechanized Infantry (Recce & Support) (Wheeled):

Image

Check out the 4 x 4 vehicles and BRDM-2 on the stamps.

19 Mech Infantry (Recce & Support)( Tracked):

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Dec 2013 12:04

BRDM-2 of a R&S (Wheeled) Battalion which seems to be part of 7 infantry division. This image from RD Parade is similar to the one that appears on the stamp of 23 Mechanized Infantry listed above.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Dec 2013 12:09

MOD is the biggest hurdle standing in the way of India achieving anything worthwhile in terms of genuine TOT and tech gain from foreign vendors. The babus in MOD seem to bat for one faction or another and not the country. What could have a good approach to learn new technology has been turned into a farce by MOD.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2013 12:46

The info is verbatim, so could it be R&S was ultimately planned to be standardized on BMP2 (as limited numbers of BRDMs) as they had to accompany other tracked BMP2s.

Also, the news report is very interesting. My comments in blue.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... -programme

1. "The range of the land version will be extended by development of a mast-mounted missile launcher that is hydraulically raised to a height of 5 metres to enable the missile to acquire its targets up to a distance of 7-8km. (So at the very least, optics can acquire the target at 7-8 km. Raising the entire mast means even the missiles have LOS to a larger range, see 4.)

2.An air-launched, 10-km range variant will be launched from tactical interdiction aircraft like the upgraded Jaguar IS. It has a nose-mounted mill metric-wave active radar seeker," sources said. ( Excellent. Upg IS has radar for long range acquisition. And with MMW seeker able to acquire targets, we are seeing a desi brimstone and also, a possible option to supplant import IIR seeker if it continues to be challenging)

3.Defence sources said, "The Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) will also start working on the 'man portable' Nag soon. It would weigh less than 14kg. It is being developed as per user requirements (Good - ties in with Defense News report of IA now wanting to have DRDO work on a MPATGM too. Better late than never. This is a huge requirement and can be a big win for indian industry, rather than oft quoted TOT/assembly)

4.and will see upgraded propulsion to enable 'Helina' to strike enemy armour at a distance of 7-8km. (reporter seems to have mixed things up and taken the first line ref to HELINA and taken it here. This likely refers to Nag itself being upgraded to 7-8km range. See1, which would mean leveraging tech currently developed for the 7-8km HELINA like the RF datalink etc. )

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2013 12:48

rohitvats wrote:MOD is the biggest hurdle standing in the way of India achieving anything worthwhile in terms of genuine TOT and tech gain from foreign vendors. The babus in MOD seem to bat for one faction or another and not the country. What could have a good approach to learn new technology has been turned into a farce by MOD.


Problem is no coordination - MOD is doing one thing, services another, triservice requirements are rarely factored in..
If things got sorted out and teh right people empowered, arms import gravy train ends.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajanb » 17 Dec 2013 13:11

chackojoseph wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Okay dudes, his first language is obviously not Hindustani. I am sure he speaks it better than some of us speak Telugu etc.


You mean Hindi right? or Malayalam is not Hindustani? You will be disappointed if you ever take a Hindi, Sanskrit test with me. In addition I will challenge you in Punjabi and Bhojpuri too. :lol:

Ok, the LR-SAM project seems to be on track despite the bad news flowing over ToT etc.

Radar integration begins on Indian Navy Ship for LR-SAM tests


Thanks CJ. Any idea when the tests will take place?

And I wouldn't challenge you to any multilingual contest :lol:

Reminds me of a saying that some should follow: "A closed mouth gathers no foot!" :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 17 Dec 2013 13:24

Oh! the cliches'. I spent my entire childhood in north.

The tests could be in second half 2014. its more of a guess, as I have no authentic info on the same.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 17 Dec 2013 14:21

As usual the import lobby is making derogatory comments about MOD, OFB and BFR posters. Only the Army is right. Carrying the attitude of you bloody civilian! To this thread.

Army has been importing laser guided ATGMs in form of Reflecks and Kornets but refused to consider this technology for Nag. Reflecks and proposed Import of Hellfire are not man portable ATGMs.

VK Singh ex-Army Chief himself stated in an interview also posted here on BRF that Army has a habitnof formulating absurd specifications.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Dec 2013 15:29

Karan M wrote:The info is verbatim, so could it be R&S was ultimately planned to be standardized on BMP2 (as limited numbers of BRDMs) as they had to accompany other tracked BMP2s.<SNIP>


Well, it seems the BRDM have been consolidated in wheeled R&S battalions and tracked R&S battalions are all BMP-2 equipped ones (information courtesy generally dormant BRFite).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby mody » 17 Dec 2013 17:58

The army should have realized in the late 90's or atleast by 2001-2003, that their requirement for a vehicle mounted Nag kind of system was limited at best, whereas their requirement for 3rd gen map portable ATGM, is going to be huge. They should have asked DRDO, to re-direct their efforts and come up with this version first.

But as usual IA was least interested in Indigenous efforts and chose to just sleep through the whole development effort. They opened their eyes, only when Nag succeeded with an indian IIR seeker. Then the whole changes in Namica, increased range for vehicle launched version, lower weight, better operation in extreme condition etc etc delay tactics have started. As I have said before, only Helina can save this project. Keeping all fingers crossed.

Wonder what kind of testing was Spike subjected to. There should be a rule, that DRDO representatives should also be present for testing of all foreign maal or atleast the test points and results should be available to DRDO, to know the performance of the uber cool imported systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_27581 » 17 Dec 2013 19:46

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/12/u ... -face.html

The Pentagon has offered the Javelin under the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme. This implies it would be contracted directly between the Pentagon and the MoD, with the Pentagon negotiating terms with Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, and charging India 3.8 per cent of the contract amount as a fee. The MoD, wary of procurement scams, believes FMS contracts are relatively clean and increasingly favours this route. The C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft, bought for Rs 25,000 crore ($4.12 billion) was an FMS contract; the on-going purchase of M777 artillery guns is also through the FMS route.
..........................
With over Rs 50,000 crore ($8 billion) worth of orders already on its books, America is closing in on another Rs 30,000 crore ($5 billion) worth of arms sales to India. These include six C-130J Super Hercules tactical transport aircraft; 2[b]2 AH-64D Apache attack helicopters; 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopters; and 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers.
The Javelin could now swell that tally.

[/b]


Any updates on these?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2013 21:38

mody wrote:The army should have realized in the late 90's or atleast by 2001-2003, that their requirement for a vehicle mounted Nag kind of system was limited at best, whereas their requirement for 3rd gen map portable ATGM, is going to be huge. They should have asked DRDO, to re-direct their efforts and come up with this version first.

But as usual IA was least interested in Indigenous efforts and chose to just sleep through the whole development effort. They opened their eyes, only when Nag succeeded with an indian IIR seeker. Then the whole changes in Namica, increased range for vehicle launched version, lower weight, better operation in extreme condition etc etc delay tactics have started. As I have said before, only Helina can save this project. Keeping all fingers crossed.

Wonder what kind of testing was Spike subjected to. There should be a rule, that DRDO representatives should also be present for testing of all foreign maal or atleast the test points and results should be available to DRDO, to know the performance of the uber cool imported systems.


The problem is IA has no institutionalized single agency for weapons development. Each arm has its own programs, run independently. Depending on the people involved, somethings work out, some dont. Arty for instance worked with DRDO to sort out the issues with Pinaka, and has inducted it without gripes. Infantry did so with INSAS and then next bunch of folks have decided that its too much effort and don't want to continue the work with OFB, and now want the easy way out with imports. The CADA guys now want a lighter system than Akash after all the effort in making it mobile with T-72s, but being pragmatic have taken it since it plugs vital hole in Strike Corps CADA SAM assets. The Armoured Corps/DGMF, less said the better about how they have gone about the Arjun and T-90 respectively. Basically, with the alphabet soup of agencies involved, no single organization working across the Army to smooth out things or do a technology forecast and work on it with developers, or for that matter represent consistent institutional buy-in, the current fracas will continue.
Ideally, MOD should have intervened by now and got all services to set things straight by at least issuing a directive seeing ww best practises. But they too are watching the system go haywire. Plus, ad hoc imports have their own advantages for many who want the current system to continue.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 17 Dec 2013 23:20

mody wrote:The army should have realized in the late 90's or atleast by 2001-2003, that their requirement for a vehicle mounted Nag kind of system was limited at best, whereas their requirement for 3rd gen map portable ATGM, is going to be huge. They should have asked DRDO, to re-direct their efforts and come up with this version first.

I don't think IA was that forward thinking nor did DRDO have capability to develop a 3rd gen MP-ATGM during that time. We can play what if scenario all we want but we cannot expect the government or military branch to come up with advanced systems. We need establish private companies that are forward thinking and are able to develop systems such as this rather than relying on DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 18 Dec 2013 01:06

Right. Private companies will have magical secret sauce that will allow them to somehow come up with the equivalent of teh 3 decades of hard won IGMDP experience that DRDO has via the DRDL, RCI, ASL cluster along with support labs like LRDE, ARDE, HEMRL, IRDE etc. all with their own subsystems and several gen of products, improved one by one.
Govt branch can come up with IR/ICBM/SLBMs which are not advanced i presume.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 18 Dec 2013 08:02

Pvt co if allowed will likely need hand holding for the conclusion of the first project.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Dec 2013 08:13

one area where pvt cos might do better is manufacturing under TOT and guidance from the prototype/development agency(DRDO). comparison with OFB here...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 18 Dec 2013 09:33

agree there completely.

i only question the claim that by themselves pvt companies can do everything themselves and come up with advanced designs on their own.
right now, ADA had to handhold them for even getting subsystems developed, at which PSUs had more experience, with limited scientists/staff all this becomes a hard choice.

DRDL et al have 3 decades of hard won experience under their belt and are now picking up speed (after,C, walk, run).. pvt firms in comparison can do niche stuff but the overall design and development is way beyond them.. just for us to get an idea... astra redesign took some 3 odd years of work in the aero arena before it was ready for trials again. this is after 2 decades spent on mastering nag, prithvi, trishul, etc aerodynamics.

pvt firms provide parts of the whole, but not the whole.

for instance, in Nag case - drdo designed the seeker, BDL is making it. it is using an improved FPA based on specs from france but have developed all the rest themselves - optics, gimbal, signal processor, power source - basically all that goes into the seeker. now at aero india, a pvt firm, which does work on subsystems from all the bangalore etc labs and is pretty good (giving BEL a much deserved run for their money) displayed one of their "seeker options", it was nothing but a selex seeker.

to make an eqvt of the existing Nag one they'll require years of effort..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 18 Dec 2013 09:35

Pratyush wrote:Pvt co if allowed will likely need hand holding for the conclusion of the first project.


first and even second in some cases. problem is staff to do this is limited plus timelines are also strict. the testing and certification part alone drops many pvt firms which simply lack the resources to persist.
OFB avadhi vendor base is a perfect example. getting pvt firms to make rubber gaskets, seals plus metal components and have them certified is painstaking tedious work. most fail QA and require years of rework and trial after trial after trial.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby mody » 18 Dec 2013 12:43

What the private companies can do or what DRDO or defense PSU's can do, is a question that comes later. The most basic question is what do the services want? Who is going to decide that. do you want the private companies in India or DRDO to decide what should be a requirement of the Indian Army?

The IA has to come up with requirements and realistic ones at that and then have the agencies work on them.

Hence my point, that IA should have realized atleast 10-12 years ago, that Nag in its current form is not their priority, but a 3rd gen F&F man portable ATGM is.
John, your claim that DRDO could not have come with a decent enough solution for 2.5 Km range 3rd gen man portable ATGM, in the last 10 plus years, is pure speculation at best and deriding indigenous effort.

The army has been least interested to go for indigenous systems or come with meaningful requirements. The result is that we end up importing even basic things like small arms and standard assault rifles, to mortars and ammunition. The case of 82 mm or was it 120 mm mortar is a classic example.
An army of more then a million men, importing basic assault rifles is a shame.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 18 Dec 2013 13:12

+1

Most of the development organizations have a "Product Management" function to ensure that they talk to the customers, prioritize the requirements and detail the requirements. They bridge the R&D and the customers.

Just to avoid things like this. IA is procuring thousands of man-portable AGTMs while DRDO is working on other types of ATGMs that will be procured in hundreds.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 18 Dec 2013 16:31

Agni-III test posponed due to bad weather until 23rd..
tracking ship failed to reach the designated spot..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 19 Dec 2013 08:57

For long, drdo is maintaining, range is not a concern, it can be added as needed, including the current chief and he reiterated that after assuming office.

So how can the lack of long range missile (comparatively) can be explained?

Though it may be too temping to say it could be due to handicap in latest rocket fuel technology, the real reason, as we understand, is to achieve highest possible accuracy at long ranges. Once the required CEP was achieved, they are moving to the next bigger range missile.

Simple comparison could be, Nag missile. Without sensor sensitivities matches the range, higher range for Nag is useless. Same goes to long range missiles like Agni.

Achieving Zero or close to Zero CEP, though may look like a simple statement, it has profound implication.

srin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 19 Dec 2013 11:05

A question on Akash & Barak-8.

Per-wiki, Akash weighs 720 KG with a 60 KG warhead. Its range is 30 KM. It has ramjet propulsion, meaning that sustainer doesn't need to carry oxidant.

Again, per wiki, Barak-8 weights 270 KG (40% less) with a 60 KG warhead. Its range is 70 KM (230% more).

I'd have expected Akash to be lighter given that it has ramjet propulsion, meaning the sustainer doesn't need to carry oxidant. Being command guided, its seeker should also be lighter.

What explains the huge increase in the Barak-8's efficiency ?

saumitra_j
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby saumitra_j » 19 Dec 2013 11:17

srin not an expert, but in my view, following points could explain the difference of range:
1. Missile material: Barak 8 may be using a more advanced and light weight material as compared to Akash
2. RAM Jet for Akash means heavier sustainer
3. And the most important reason: IIRC, Akash is remains fully powered during it's entire range of 30km giving it better ability to deal with maneuvering targets, especially fighters and CAS aircrafts. Barak 8 on the other hand is unlikely to remain un-powered through out its flight and is likely to cruise during the end game - hence suitable for taking out strategic non maneuvering targets like AWACS, Transports, Bombers etc

srin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 19 Dec 2013 12:27

That is possible, but to counter that, consider these ...
a) The Barak-8 propulsion system is being done by DRDO, which developed Akash. Could they have made such a big jump in such a short time ? In such a case, we should see a huge jump in Akash-2 specs.

b) The Barak-8 is dual-thrust which means the second phase is a slow burning sustainer. And the max speed (Mach 2) is similar to Akash's max speed. Given that it has to do fleet air defense and defend against supersonic maneuvering cruise missiles (Israel is scared of Syrian Yakhonts for instance) and also against fighters (like carrier-based Chinese flanker copies), unless it is powered throughout the flight envelope, it is going to be hard to intercept these targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 19 Dec 2013 13:16

srin wrote:Again, per wiki, Barak-8 weights 270 KG (40% less) with a 60 KG warhead. Its range is 70 KM (230% more).


You should compare it with Trishul Missile specs. You will find Barak-8 more heavier, bigger corresponding to the range.


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