Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

geeth
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Mar 2013 12:55

If Nirbhay can be brought back, then it has to have more than 1000 km 'range' (or the range is less than 500 Km or it should carry much more fuel), the engine should be sturdy enough for re-use, have landing gear (or recovery mechanism) and the wings should be large. Probably that is why the speed is somewhat lower.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SivaVijay » 11 Mar 2013 13:25

I simply dont see the point in having a missile that can be brought back. A missile should be expendable, F&F and all that. A drone is supposed to survive and do the coming back. Why have a missile that comes back (carrying sub munitions is good though)? coming back means survival and all the gizmos needed for that. If the idea was to combine the best of a drone and a cruise missile, I just dont know how Nirbhay will achieve that, atleast not from what we have about it so far.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 11 Mar 2013 13:33

At AE-13,a boffin in uniform was open mouthed when he saw the UMS micro-GT engine desi developed ,perfect for our missiles and UAVs.In fact he commented that it appeared to be far superior to the "Russian ones..." Let me try and get some further details of that engine if I can.

Now the details in the media appear to be confusing,that a mobile launcher is reqd. ,it resembles Lakshaya,looks like an aircraft,will return,etc.So it is a variant of the target drone design or what? APJAK used to comment about a re-usable missile,but one generally thought that that was part of the hyperplane project.The range looks fudged if it the same size as Tomahawk,which can be fired from land,sea,undersea, or air,and which has a 2000km range.Given the above hints from the media,I wonder how it is going to be fired from a sub.Nevertheless,great news.If the test date has been announced in advance,then this is the first "official" test and it must've been launched earlier.

PS:If re-usable,then how many times can it be done before the engine requires replacement or modification?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Mar 2013 13:47

disha wrote:
Nirbhay, which looks like an aircraft, can drop bombs. It can be remotely controlled and brought back. In this mission, there are no plans to recover it or use it to drop bombs.


I take it that it means the systems are shared with say Rustom (UCAV) only the command, guidance and datalink package may be changed.


I dont think the rustom airframe is capable of mach 0.67 speed at all. a far more streamlined fuselage and powerful engine is needed for nirbhay.

probably all this coming back and reuseable thing is a FUD. there is no proper CM that is reuseable and we already have harpy and harop drones for localized SEAD. saturn engines would not be needed for such , small scale piston engines are enough.

someone was having fun pulling the reporters legs

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 11 Mar 2013 17:07

Reusable Nirbhay that can drop bombs? Damn, if true, they seem to have created a hybrid UAV/Cruise missile. Possibly the first of its kind. Can't wait to see its basic shape.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 11 Mar 2013 17:59

Philip wrote:If the test date has been announced in advance,then this is the first "official" test and it must've been launched earlier.

PS:If re-usable,then how many times can it be done before the engine requires replacement or modification?


+1 there is lesser possibility that the first launch is announced considering the amount of secret that was kept about the project. There must have been some tests earlier , as k15 quickly goes to its 12th launch we might see DRDO or ARDE to say now its 6-7th launch of nirbhay.

the design must have been tested somehow on lakshay as they appear to be of comparable design (excluding size etc)

the guidance could have been tested earlier & engine can always be tested on ground or some aircraft.

They have already said that the induction time for this missile will be less (maybe a year+ but less).

some people may say that there should be Indian engine on-board but just imagine the nightmare of the engine saga in Indian aircraft industry (+ also in panda industry).

the 200+ engines that we got is enough to built a credible cruse missile inventory & the mk2-mk3 may have Indian engine.

finally best of luck to all for tomorrow

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 11 Mar 2013 18:04

Err,
They have been testing the 'Lakshya' a few times this past few years, I think

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 11 Mar 2013 18:08

Nirbhay's first flight which was earlier expected in 1Q, 2012 was then scheduled for August and later postponed to October, 2012 and eventually to 1Q, 2013..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 11 Mar 2013 19:12

India to test fire sub sonic cruise missile Nirbhay on Tuesday
http://jaipur.co/india-to-test-fire-sub ... n-tuesday/

Balasore: The much-hyped newly developed subsonic, medium range, cruise missile ‘Nirbhay’ will be test fired from Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur on sea, about 15 kms from here on Tuesday, defence sources said today.

Nirbhay is being developed by Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation. For the first time that India has developed a cruise missile which will travel at a sub-sonic speed (less than
the speed of sound).

Nirbhay has good loitering capability, good control and guidance, high degree of accuracy in terms of impact and very good stealth features and it is equivalent of Tomahawk, a long-range, sub-sonic cruise missile, developed by the United States. The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a DRDO facility in Bangalore, has designed Nirbhay, the equivalent of Lakshya, which is a pilotless target aircraft developed by the ADE.

Nirbhay has many technologies derived from Lakshya. It is a two-stage, surface-to-surface missile. While a booster engine would ‘kick the first stage’ from the ground, the second stage has a turbo-prop engine, akin to an aircraft’s. It can carry multiple payloads and engage several targets. Even if there are multiple targets, it can pick out a target and attack it, defence sources said.

As a precautionary measure, the villagers residing within the 2 km radius of the the launch complex-III of the ITR will be evacuated. The defence authorities held a meeting with the Balasore administration on Friday last and it was revealed that about 3284 people, including 698 minors belonging to 453 families, all residents of five villages namely Jaydevkasaba Pahi, Sahaji Nagar Pahi, Luna Pahi, Kusumuli Pahi and Khadu Pahi would be displaced temporarily.

The displaced villagers would be given accommodation in two temporary shelters. While each adult would be paid Rs 185 for shifting from their houses, the minor would be paid Rs 75. This apart,the authority would also pay compensation for shifting the cattle and domestic livestock.

–UNI
Last edited by dinesha on 11 Mar 2013 19:31, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Mar 2013 19:15

IS Nirbhay going to be a "turbo Prop"? and not a "Jet" engine. Seems to be bit strange

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 11 Mar 2013 19:17

we don't even known what it is

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 11 Mar 2013 19:19

Reusable Nirbhay seems DDM

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 11 Mar 2013 19:34

Aditya_V wrote:IS Nirbhay going to be a "turbo Prop"? and not a "Jet" engine. Seems to be bit strange

Nirbhay isa turbo-prop (aka propfan), gas turbine engine + propellers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 11 Mar 2013 19:45

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Mar 2013 19:58

SSridhar wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:IS Nirbhay going to be a "turbo Prop"? and not a "Jet" engine. Seems to be bit strange

Nirbhay isa turbo-prop (aka propfan), gas turbine engine + propellers.


Yes I know Kinda unusual for Cruise Missile, just wanted to confirm. I assume the design of the blades will also be a bit unusal

Pentaiah, I think if Nirbhay uses the Prop fan, the propeller blades will be at the back end like what we see in UAV's unlike say a C-130 J engine

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 11 Mar 2013 20:08

Pusher is the word

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Mar 2013 20:15

Pentaiahgaru, propfan is not turboprop..In propfan, the fan will be inside the engine cowling, acting more or less like compressor blades.

I think Nirbhay is a larger, more sophisticated lakshya, capable of firing weapons. Heck, it can even take the role of a remotely piloted air defence platform.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 11 Mar 2013 20:18

Geeth garu
Sridhar garu had said turbo prop = turbo fan
Please take look at Sridhar gaurs post.

I only posted HS748 turbo prop picture

Here is turbo fan

Image
Last edited by pentaiah on 11 Mar 2013 20:24, edited 1 time in total.

geeth
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Mar 2013 20:20

I have always wondered why the DRDO guys kept on flight testing Lakshya for decades. With limited funds, may be they could do only that. But, if what is claimed is TRUE, Hats off to their ingenuity and concealment.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Mar 2013 20:23

Okay, granted...but it may or may not be pusher type..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 11 Mar 2013 20:26

A missile fired and then coming home is scary proposition if not propulsion and create convulsions

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Mar 2013 21:06

geeth wrote:I have always wondered why the DRDO guys kept on flight testing Lakshya for decades. With limited funds, may be they could do only that. But, if what is claimed is TRUE, Hats off to their ingenuity and concealment.

Agree 100%, all this Lakshya testing would be to perfect Nirbhay. also DRDO keeps saying its is a "derivative of Lakshya", either it is just an extended range Lakshya or Lakshya itself is way more than a target drone... probably an UCAV has been developed in Lakshya and Abhyas (on the line of harpy and Harop but reusable) but kept under wraps not to attract the attention of MTCR wallahs.
BTB, what munition would we use for this "reusable missile"?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Mar 2013 21:10

> Please take look at Sridhar gaurs post

:rotfl: talk about being bullish on India.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 11 Mar 2013 21:11

Defused or reccee cameras

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 11 Mar 2013 21:14

disha wrote:
SSridhar wrote:A DRDO official said Nirbhay was on a par with the best systems of its class. It was a third variant of India’s missiles, the others being the Agni series and the underwater-launched K-15/B05 missile. Nirbhay has latest navigation and guidance technologies, which were better than Pakistan’s cruise missile, {Now, why do we have to say that and compare ourselves to that wwretched country ?} he added.


Reverse swing? To draw out the attention that the Baki missile program is nothing but a Chinese one? First compare Nirbhay with "best system" like tomahawk and then bring in the Baki missile program.

I agree with SSridhar. Why mention those a$$holes?? BC panvati :evil:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Mar 2013 21:19

the more strike oriented KH101 had used a propfan earlier in life. just as cheen sometimes uses ideas or projects that didnt find much traction in Rus/ukraine biraderi, perhaps we took a leaf from that tree and made it grow under indic conditions...

Details of the Kh-101 remained shrouded in secrecy
for many years, but one of the most intriguing facts to emerge was that its
designers had planned to use a propfan engine to power the missile, in place
of a conventional small turbofan. This engine, the Soyuz/Moscow R128-300, was
rated at 1,300 hp for launch/boost and at 500 hp for the cruise phase.
Mounted on the rear section of the missile, behind the tail unit, it drove
two sets of three, curved contra-rotating props. It is believed that the
early prototypes of the Kh-101 were flown with the propfan engine, but that
its performance fell short of requirements. Instead, an 'interim' Kh-101
design was drawn up to use a podded OMKB/Omsk TRDD-50AT (izdieliye 36MT)
turbofan, which entered series production in 2002 at Rybinsk. The same engine
is used to power the Kh-555 strategic cruise missile, plus the improved Kh-35
and Kh-59M missiles. It is unclear whether work is continuing on the propfan-
powered Kh-101.

---
propfans will give it the huge loiter time and range at the expense of some speed over a turbofan..and it need not be shrouded though better from stealth POV
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... FEuJ8xIg7z
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... TXVfFZNM7Q
---

I am 101% mush-sure that nirbhay is not one missile but a family - one could be the reuseable loitering thing, another the more conventional indic tomahawk and so on...perhaps a heavier "deep strike" naval/ground version vs a lighter and smaller IAF version as well. Lord knows there have been *enough* Lakshya tests over the years to develop a lot of kit.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 11 Mar 2013 21:26

Most likely 36MT is going to power the Nirbhay

Image
36 MT

Kh-59M gives a glimpse of engine placement..
Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Mar 2013 21:35

the KH99 is the worst possible arrangement from RCS reduction or cansister packaging. the Thawk is in between with the spring loaded air scoop. the KH101 is the next gen with the fuselage itself having a shaped scoop with the engine directly inline and nothing sticking out.
the kh55 drops the whole engine down to the KH59 position from a internal cavity.

the KH59 on top of that needs a special big datalink pod for launch a/c to talk to the missile. in these matters the americans are far ahead and dont need separate hw / radar for each arrow in the bag.
Last edited by Singha on 11 Mar 2013 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vishvak » 11 Mar 2013 21:36

pentaiah wrote:A missile fired and then coming home is scary proposition if not propulsion and create convulsions

For return does the missile need the same place? In another scenario, post-attack can not the missile be put to stop at the nearest convenient location? There could be many interesting situations for return too.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 11 Mar 2013 21:55

If it is indeed reusable it would be a mistake to return to launch location unless it is flying back at treetop heights and can avoid being tracked. All the best to DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 11 Mar 2013 22:01

If the missile can come back then the range would be ~2000 km. Or quoted 1000 km include return journey as well? that means the range is ~500 km??

added later -- oh, geeth has already asked the same question.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Mar 2013 22:08

prop-fan
Image

Turbofan
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 00:02

I don't know where all these questions of prop fan etc. are coming from. ADE showed us how it is going to look like. The engine is going to be TRDD 50MT or a ToT version of the same.

Image

A cruise missile flies like a plane and can loiter at the the target. I don't think it should be confused with Nirbhay is like a plane which can fly some where, drop bombs and fly back. The reporter just made a mistake. Just imagine. How would you recover it when it comes back? How ill it drop bombs? How will it be air-launched if it is like a plane?

Just hold on to your horses for a couple of hours and you will see it with your own eyes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jamwal » 12 Mar 2013 00:18

I don't think that Nirbhaya can be a "reusable missile", if theres any such term. A reusable vehicle like this will be classified as an UCAV, not a missile. It's not big enough to carry multiple warheads either.

Lets suppose for a moment that it is reusable, then do you recover it ? Land it on a landing gear ? Recover it via parachute ? What about doing it safely with unused ordnance on board ?

IMHO, it's just a slightly complicated missile which can loiter for a while, looking for the best target before diving in. Nothing more.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vashishtha » 12 Mar 2013 00:43

probably someone confused 'Nirbhay' with 'Nishant'

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 12 Mar 2013 00:47

Nirbhay TEL (from DRDO website)
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 01:09

A Sharma wrote:Nirbhay TEL (from DRDO website)
Image

I was expecting TFTA TATA 12X12. :((

Between, Which truck is that?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 12 Mar 2013 01:10

Leyland comet

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 01:21

A Sharma wrote:Nirbhay TEL (from DRDO website)
Image


Where exactly on the DRDO site?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Misraji » 12 Mar 2013 01:27

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