Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Mar 2013 19:49

shiv wrote:Strangely, this particular missile has got more publicity for a first launch than most other missiles. Why?


maybe because its ADE's first missile and they have different take on the publicity thing. it didnt come from the missile center in Hyd which has done everything from A5 down to Nag so far.
could be a funding play to gain visibility and get more work on similar projects.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 12 Mar 2013 19:54

300 km, ..... MTCR .........just wild guesses

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 12 Mar 2013 19:55

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:my wild theory - one or more of the control surfaces jammed in a certain position, making it deviate continuously.

Plausible but it could be cause by faulty commands or by hardware failure. Anyway a failure of the first few launches is always better than three roaring successes. Failures must occur and show up what is wrong rather than accidental successes where the failures which are waiting to occur simply wait for later.



I think the transducer problem


Why did they hype about reusability and dropping bombs from missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rakall » 12 Mar 2013 19:59

Singha wrote:
shiv wrote:Strangely, this particular missile has got more publicity for a first launch than most other missiles. Why?


maybe because its ADE's first missile and they have different take on the publicity thing. it didnt come from the missile center in Hyd which has done everything from A5 down to Nag so far.
could be a funding play to gain visibility and get more work on similar projects.


1. It is the one thing that western neighbours have & we dont

2. It is THE ONE THING of utmost strategic & tactical importance to our defence preparedness.. the missing piece of the puzzle in our inventory & acquisitions

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anujan » 12 Mar 2013 20:05

Journo wondering on twitter if it was named nirbhay after the Delhi case. Face palm.

And we expect them to cover defence issues accurately and fairly. :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 12 Mar 2013 20:22

Anujan wrote:Journo wondering on twitter if it was named nirbhay after the Delhi case. Face palm.


Name plz.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sriman » 12 Mar 2013 20:30

Anujan wrote:Journo wondering on twitter if it was named nirbhay after the Delhi case. Face palm.

100% expected that to happen. Predictable lot.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anujan » 12 Mar 2013 20:30

Last edited by Anujan on 12 Mar 2013 20:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Mar 2013 20:32

Singha wrote:
shiv wrote:Strangely, this particular missile has got more publicity for a first launch than most other missiles. Why?


maybe because its ADE's first missile and they have different take on the publicity thing. it didnt come from the missile center in Hyd which has done everything from A5 down to Nag so far.
could be a funding play to gain visibility and get more work on similar projects.


The high publicity/expectation in the last few days is also because of the hush-hush nature of the program. DRDO had dressed up Nirbhay in a mini-skirt, revealing just enough for people drooling to see more

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pankajs » 12 Mar 2013 20:39

I don't know about the media coverage but I was as eager about the A5 and the SLBM program as about Nirbhay. Each represents a quantum leap in technology as far as the country is concerned.
Last edited by pankajs on 12 Mar 2013 20:42, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 12 Mar 2013 20:41

Anujan wrote:Journo wondering on twitter if it was named nirbhay after the Delhi case. Face palm.

And we expect them to cover defence issues accurately and fairly. :roll:

Oh my this journalist is scraping every corner his brain for information on defence related issues and during that search he suddenly finds this in the big empty space in his head. A big Aha! moment. He probably heard the words "Nirbhay Cruise Missile" and his mind did a search for info

Cruise: 0 results
Missile: 0 results
Nirbhay: 1 result

So he has reached the limits of his knowledge there. A good defence reporter. Know nothing. Talk bullshit.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 12 Mar 2013 20:48

Will there be commonality between the rear fins assembly of Nirbhay and the future Sudarshan kits since both are from ADE? even the mid fins by their size seem suitable for an extended range desi 'JDAM', the upcoming one from ADE

if there are going to be sub-munitions they might be placed inside the airframe just behind forward wing kit, from the high res picture there seem to be 6 segments upto the tail piece, counting from the nose, the 3 and 4 segments seem suitable for sub-munition storage and also keeping the CG in-flight.

On the personnel from the ndtv video, would like to see the teams wear color coded T-shirts just for the campaign, that way it looks more orderly, ISRO does that I guess.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 20:56

karan_mc wrote:If the missile Crashed in the sea , why Nirbhays lower engine section was found on land ??

Image

Image

Where did you get these pictures from? This seems like CG done to malign DRDO/India. The guy even forgot to match the font of the inscriptions.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2013 20:58

Good launch and the vehicle looks good.
No big deal on flight had to be aborted.

Shows tracking and destruct system works.

No kidding when they said it was terminated for "coastal safety".

The solid booster seems to be a standard one now with DRDO.

Definitely turbo-fan. No prop/vop

The vehicle took its land attack role literally!


8)

indranil the pics look from ndtv site.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby AbhiJ » 12 Mar 2013 21:02

indranilroy wrote:Where did you get these pictures from? This seems like CG done to malign DRDO/India. The guy even forgot to match the font of the inscriptions.


drop.ndtv.com/albums/NEWS/nirbhay/gal1.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 12 Mar 2013 21:04

assuming the planned test is for reaching the 1k km range, & assuming flight path is a loiter in cyclical path, possibilities include range calculation achieved and mission preempted by built in oracle system based on observed parameters. why not think positive.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby NRao » 12 Mar 2013 21:05

The stencile (sp?) on the crashed version and the others are not the same.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Victor » 12 Mar 2013 21:09

The debris was found in Jagatsinghpur about 20km inland and 60km from launch in Chandipur. This is on a direct line to and 40km short of Puri :shock: . Bhubaneshwar is just 20km to the west. Something happened very soon after launch for the debris to have fallen so close to populated areas and so far inland, even if it was the booster and not the main missile. I don't think DRDO would intentionally launch in a direction so close to land. The very idea of Chandipur test site is to launch safely over the Bay of Bengal.

Back to drawing board but it is good to see DRDO keeping to a safe, proven config. Wonder where the DDM got all those wild ideas--turboprop, reusable, drop bombs etc. Sometimes they will only hear selectively and then rush out to publish sensational bunkum.
Last edited by Victor on 12 Mar 2013 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Mar 2013 21:13

tracking these CM tests is going to be tough....they setup some makeshift stations along the coast and made it fly parallel in 12,000ft for this one. when it drops down to 300ft for the proper tests, they will need a chase plane with active radar to video and radar track it.

for BM tests a couple of green pine type radars are enough as the missile goes to 100s of km altitude.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 12 Mar 2013 21:14

NRao wrote:The stencile (sp?) on the crashed version and the others are not the same.

the one on the ndtv video is not stenciled. the one tested is perhaps (per crash pic).

btw, why not test it over the seas/coast line?
Last edited by SaiK on 12 Mar 2013 21:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Mar 2013 21:15

second pic seems to have a wing. does not look like just the booster.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajanb » 12 Mar 2013 21:18

At 0.7 Mach, they should have a relay of chase a/c following it? This is an important project for us and we should pull out all the stops.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 12 Mar 2013 21:24

rajanb wrote:At 0.7 Mach, they should have a relay of chase a/c following it? This is an important project for us and we should pull out all the stops.

rajan they can destroy-test 2 missiles for the cost saved on chase aircraft and and its fuel I guess. Missiles and rockets are so much cheaper to test than manned aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajanb » 12 Mar 2013 21:31

yes Shiv. I agree.

But was thinking that if the videos from the chase a/c showed a mismatch of the control surfaces positioning compared to the commands (recorded on telemtry) given, it would identify the problem sooner.

Also, if there was problem with the difference in the positioning signal: GPs/Glossnass etc. the a/c could corroborate it?

There would be many flies trying to get into this ointment.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 12 Mar 2013 21:33

The missile looks very spiffy unlike the earlier podded designs being bandied about. No fear the next few tests will establish its caliber.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anujan » 12 Mar 2013 21:34

Test vehicles usually have radio beacons and radar reflectors. The radar reflectors are also placed in high altitude weather balloons for example so it is easy to detect and track them.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 21:35

rajanb wrote:yes Shiv. I agree.

But was thinking that if the videos from the chase a/c showed a mismatch of the control surfaces positioning compared to the commands (recorded on telemtry) given, it would identify the problem sooner.

Also, if there was problem with the difference in the positioning signal: GPs/Glossnass etc. the a/c could corroborate it?

There would be many flies trying to get into this ointment.

I had thought of this too. But at a range of 1000 kms, only the MKI could have don't it. Also suppose you had the video of mismatched control surfaces, what would you do with it. Which control surface got stuck, is very easy to deduce. Their problem is to find out why it did so. The video will not help them there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 12 Mar 2013 21:54

In this video grab it is clear that " Nirbhay " written was just above booster and close to lower end section near Missile turbo-fan. i have checked hi res pictures too and wording are only near end , if this was found inland then off can missile fly close to 300 km over sea ?? or it turned back and was coming back to the coast ?? and this is when it had to be killed for safety ??

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pankajs » 12 Mar 2013 21:57

India's cruise missile Nirbhay's maiden test fails
As the missile veered off its flight trajectory after travelling about 250 km, its engine was cut off to bring it down to ensure coastal safety. Its debris was later found on land in Odisha's Jagatsinghpur district by villagers;

Note:
1. 250 km in about 15-20 mins is about right.
2. Engine was cut off, the missile was not detonated.
3. My guess is that the trajectory was from Chandipur to over Wheeler Island and beyond and not straight out to the sea. Perhaps they had some kind of asset/radar on the Island for tracking. With the engine cutoff, a deviation on this trajectory would take it quite far inland before it hit the ground, especially if it was traveling at 0.7M and had to descend about 4.5 km. Wheeler Island is south of Chandipur.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 22:14

Is the village in Jagatsinghpur district reported?
Chandipur, Wheelers Island and Jagatsinghpur district

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Mar 2013 22:17

PMO level orders need to go out to depute a MKI with HD cameras and GPS/GloNass logging gear to follow the bird all the way....a MKI on full internal fuel and no payload (barring the camera pod) should be able mount a 1500km radius sortie...a 2nd mKI can relieve it for the final 30% of the 1000km run and keep margins of safety.

if MKIs can be deputed on 30 min notice to search for the wreckage of YSR reddys crashed helicopter , why not for national projects?

nothing beats having a HD record of every moment in flight and flies in ointment can be logged as in sudden degradation of gps or glonass data when compared to onboard INS in the MKI. trust no one.

khan chacha has used both airborne cameras and even a onboard tv camera glued below the thawk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5VcnCZ6Pv0

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pankajs » 12 Mar 2013 22:25

indranilroy wrote:Is the village in Jagatsinghpur district reported?
Chandipur, Wheelers Island and Jagatsinghpur district

None of the reports mention the village.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2013 22:28

karan_mc, In this picture the name is stencelled forward of the fins.

viewtopic.php?p=1423417#p1423417


If they cut off the enggine then it will coast for quite while from its 4.5km altitude.

In future it needs a destruct system to ensure "coastal safety" or population will be at risk.

Most likely this scenario of veering towards land was not planned and hence engine cut-off was the only option.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 12 Mar 2013 22:29

cost of testing should include cost of collecting metrics, no matter what platform/measurement is chosen to give the valuable data sets.. one can't get data from past events if it is not measured. if an HD recorder was needed, then DRDO should have had it covered already. meaning, hype should not be greater than need.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Mar 2013 22:34

NASA is able to mount a small camera on rockets and have it send back video even to the edge of space
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMfQHzjNvRU

we need such kit. lets not go dharmic and try to do this on a shoestring budget

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 12 Mar 2013 22:43

Jagatsinghpur district is roughly 30km inland from the coast, so the glide range would be greater than 30km on a diagonal axis assuming the engine was cut-off just before crossing the coast at a cruise speed of 0.7m

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 22:47

LCA should be able to carry upto 2 Nirbhay missiles on it's two under-wing hardpoints and may be one on the central hard point. Rafale and MKI will be able to carry more.

I am jumping the gun here. I think DRDO should develop a shorter version of Nirbhay too. Something like the 350-700 km range, about 500-800 kgs in weight. It should be easy to do.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pankajs » 12 Mar 2013 22:48

vasu raya wrote:Jagatsinghpur district is roughly 30km inland from the coast, so the glide range would be greater than 30km on a diagonal axis assuming the engine was cut-off just before crossing the coast at a cruise speed of 0.7m
Don't go by Google marker. The coast is also part of Jagatsinghpur district.

http://www.odisha.gov.in/portal/dist.asp
Last edited by pankajs on 12 Mar 2013 22:52, edited 1 time in total.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2013 22:51

vasu raya wrote:Jagatsinghpur district is roughly 30km inland from the coast, so the glide range would be greater than 30km on a diagonal axis assuming the engine was cut-off just before crossing the coast at a cruise speed of 0.7m


No, the town of Jagatsinghpur is roughly 30km inland. The district of Jagatsinghpur has a long coastline.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 12 Mar 2013 22:56

The missile without booster will still weigh 1200 kg so I doubt LCA can carry 2. Unless like you said a light weight 700-800 km range one is made.


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