Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 16 Aug 2013 10:15

Why are heads not rolling instead we see talking heads boning up and down like buoys

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Philip » 16 Aug 2013 10:23

Tx. Austin for this post.Very true,the double hulls took the major force of the blast.I posted earlier the view of a veteran submariner that he would be safer in a Russian sub (for the same reasons),We saw even in the Kursk disaster.how the aft section of the hull was virtually intact.

The decongestion of the Bombay base has to be accelerated.The GOI/MOD have to accomplish this on a war footing.In fact the IN now has (thanks to the saddest circumstances) an excellent opportunity to press its case for immediate action on the various decisions pending affecting its inventory,operational preparedness and logistic infratsructure.

PS:Heads not rolling? 18 have died for heaven's sake! If it was human error/negligence.The BOI hasn't even begun. But the buck stops with the DM and PM who have allowed the IN's sub status to plummet to such dangerous depths and the indecision and delays that are the hallmark of the DM's style of (non) functioning.According to an earlier media report,he is more interested in going back to his home state-keeping a close watch every day on developments there,rather than look after the affairs of his ministry.That head must be the first to roll.It should've been despatched after his "economy with the truth" statement to the House,about the Paki killings of our jawans ,which he later revised after he and the PM were found out.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2013 10:24

We do not have current political will to handle the fall out of such a rogue mission by Pakis. Who is going to retaliate?? Most likely if any involvement is found, the info would be kept top secret, buried in deep layers.

All AKA will send is Interim Dossier Lifafa from India= IDLI

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby tsarkar » 16 Aug 2013 10:29

krishnan wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Senior-submariners-suspect-sabotage-in-sinking-of-INS-Sindhurakshak/articleshow/21852621.cms
Correct article, warheads & propellants have safety measures and rely on the fire control device/computer to arm the weapons. Modern missiles are not Diwali crackers set off by a cigarette or dropping them on the ground or banging them against the hull. Unless there are manufacturing defect.
vina wrote:Sorry, got the name wrong. DRDO has a thermal torpedo program called Shakti, with a 500 kw
This project is in a nascent stage, but agree, that modern mono-propellants are quite safe. Coming to the original point, that was torpedoes in service or about to enter service, whether battery powered or mono-propellant, are safe.
vina wrote:The latest German torpedoes the Pakis have selected for the Agosta are thermal ones. The biggest and baddest types the world over are thermals!
There is only one German manufacturer - Atlas - and all its torpedoes are all battery powered.
SNaik wrote:There is no visible trail of discharge of the used components. What equipment are you talking about to detect the effluents?
Ship/Helicopter/MPA EO. One US helicopter pilot told me that his EO could track a Polish shallow running Russian torpedo back to its source through its hot discharge. Not sure whether he was boasting, but point is once an area is narrowed down, sonobuoys & dipping sonar could be used for precise location, and attacked. Similarly fast ASW class like Abhay can race down and pepper with mortars.

Fearing the worst that no tapping or any sounds have been heard from the inside.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2013 10:36

MUMBAI: Two days after the INS Sindhurakshak tragedy, naval divers have reportedly recovered two bodies from the badly damaged and half submerged submarine.

Search for remaining naval personnel onboard the submarine is on. There were 18 crewmen when explosions and fire devastated the frontline submarine of the Indian Navy late on August 13.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 855024.cms

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 16 Aug 2013 11:06

tsarkar, Also thermal batteries are extremely hazardous. Germans first developed them during WWII.

So to cut the speculations why don't we list probable causes based on the news reports and see if they match the signature:initial flame, bluish white flash and then the yellow explosion.

I still stick to
initial flame due to ESD while loading.
sets of the hydrogen accumulated due to battery being charged before sub being underway
the flash sets of the nearby warhead
All in matter of minutes

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2013 11:23

if you look at karwar photo it will take a lot of work to make it capable of taking the mumbai warships. also the basin itself is not that big...it looks smaller than the hangout purely of khan ssn's in mystic, CT all alone.

the current snails pace of funding to bring karwar upto 100% cannot continue ... it must be funded on par with other strategic projects and mumbai vacated. better for the navy, better for the city. MDL can take over and use the vacated space.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2013 11:41

Picture of Klub missile being loaded inside Indian Kilo class sub

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5448/kiloklub.jpg

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Aaryan » 16 Aug 2013 11:53

Sir I have query, that video we have of the blast can’t be from the start. I mean why would someone shoot a video of a dock at 12:10 am unless he/she knew something was gonna happen, so may be he/she was present there or was passing by then heard some sound, saw some flame and start shooting, in this way the video must have missed the original blast flames, what we are seeing must be 2nd or 3rd blast flame.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Philip » 16 Aug 2013 11:54

The deck hands who survived,along with dockyard staff on duty will be able to confirm whether the sub's loading was complete or whether the loading process was still on when the fire/explosions took place.

Good point in the above post.What was captured are probably the secondary explosions,not the initial one.Apart from the amateur footage ,There must also be base CCTV footage given the fact that it is a major defence establishment/prime naval base.From this there would/should be evidence of the event as well,which would be of great assistance to the BOI.
Last edited by Philip on 16 Aug 2013 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Indrajit » 16 Aug 2013 11:55

It is not that whether the pakis have it or not,they know pretty well that this Govt is incapable of taking a strong decision.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chaanakya » 16 Aug 2013 11:56

So far three Bodies recovered. Badly disfigured. DNA test to be carried out to confirm identity. Navy says survivors unlikely.
Search for others going on by navy Divers.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 855024.cms

Being reported on Z- News that front compartment is completely burned .

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2013 11:59

the RN trafalgar subs have another system wherein the weapons slide down a inclined plane from the top and stored inside.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... k3wg_2RTUi

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SNaik » 16 Aug 2013 12:07

Singha wrote:the RN trafalgar subs have another system wherein the weapons slide down a inclined plane from the top and stored inside.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... k3wg_2RTUi


Chakra (and Russian nuclear subs in general) has similar loading hatch and slip system.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Philip » 16 Aug 2013 12:11

SNaik,That's similar to the Akulas and most N-subs.Diesel boats being much smaller can't afford another large hatch topsides which will affect the integrity/strength of the hull.Did you take a look at the clip earlier posted,of a German sub transferring and loading a torpedo at sea during WW2? Amazing how easily they did it.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2013 12:27

Do they have to take care of things like Static Electric Build up while loading Weapons like Torpedoes or Missile inside the Submarine ? What do they do generally in such case.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 16 Aug 2013 12:54

Aaryan wrote:Sir I have query, that video we have of the blast can’t be from the start. I mean why would someone shoot a video of a dock at 12:10 am unless he/she knew something was gonna happen, so may be he/she was present there or was passing by then heard some sound, saw some flame and start shooting, in this way the video must have missed the original blast flames, what we are seeing must be 2nd or 3rd blast flame.



The video is from a camera that just happened to be pointed in that general direction like so many other cameras installed in high end commercial and other security conscious establishments in that area. Remember, this is close to where 26/11 took place.

Other, more explicit videos of the explosion will certainly exist and may not have been released to the general public.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2013 13:09

Expert on submarine fleet talked about possible causes and consequences of the accident on a submarine in India

"The fact that the explosion occurred at night in India, can attest to the fact that it was taken off the air torpedo ammunition", - told the newspaper VIEW chairman of the St. Petersburg Submariners' Club Captain 1st Rank Igor Kurdin stock. In his opinion, we should not ignore the version of the attack.


"Maybe someone wanted to spoil the party"

Igor K., what could there be? Which, perhaps, have weaknesses in boats of this series?

Igor Kurdin: Indian boat only recently was upgraded. The main advantage of this project - its simplicity, which, in turn, ensures reliability.

Anything like this before on submarines of this series did not happen. I want to remind you that we have built for themselves 24 and 20 such submarines were sent for export to different countries. In 2005, the serial order of the five boats brought us almost 75% of the profits from the export of Russian weapons. For us it is a very profitable and lucrative arms export item.

A scene on submarines at all, even the newest technology and well-trained crew is still inevitable. Another thing that one should always draw the appropriate conclusions.

What other emergency on submarines are parallels in this case?

IK: At one time, in January 1962, detonated a diesel-electric submarine B-37 at a pier in the Arctic - then the main base of the Northern Fleet submarine force. Killed more than 100 people, almost all of the crew, and even sunk two submarines stationed nearby. And still is not certain cause of the explosion of torpedo ammunition because of destruction there were such a force, which prevented reliably determine what happened. Most likely, the rules have been violated procedural works with torpedo weapons.

The fact that the explosion occurred in India at night, around midnight, and, according to witnesses, it was not even a single explosion, and four or five consecutive, can attest to the fact that it was taken off the air torpedo ammunition. And the explosion of such force leaves virtually no chance of saving the crew. I also note that the entire crew of a submarine consists of 52 people, and on board the Indian was only 18. I can say that nowhere and never carried out maintenance work with a gun at night, only during the day, when the whole crew is aboard.

Among the versions of what happened is called a hydrogen explosion when charging batteries submarine. What do you think about this?

IK: Yes, a number of experts are inclined to this version of the original causes of the explosion. Indeed, the boat was getting ready to go to sea, and it is possible that the forces of watches and electromechanical parts specialists conducted charging batteries. I will say more on my boat and was once the battery explode. But its effects were minimal in terms of destruction and loss of life. We have not lost a single sailor. So the version that subsequently led to an explosion of the torpedo explosion of ammunition, it seems to me somewhat strained.

Then what is left?

IK: In sort out the reasons for the special commission. But I note that some people express and the assumption of the attack. I think this version also has a right to exist, all the more so in India tomorrow a national holiday - Independence Day. Maybe someone wanted to spoil the holiday ...

Some have drawn parallels between the explosion and the death of the "Kursk". And there, and there torpedo bays ...


IK: Yes, unfortunately, this parallel suggests itself. Only the "Kursk" was at sea submerged, and this boat was in the tank. But I repeat the most important thing: that the cause of this explosion is catastrophic for the ship and crew.

And could the Russian experts who have upgraded it over the past few years, do something wrong?

IK: The fact that the overhaul and modernization that took place on that submarine, as you yourself said, were for a long time. Of these, no less than six months passed mooring boat, navigation, state tests, etc. took part in them, of course, and Indian sailors themselves, as well as specialists, they have attracted. This indicates that all of the comments, flaws and faults have been eliminated. And the main evidence of good status of a submarine - it's her three-month long transition from the White Sea, from Severodvinsk, around Europe, Africa, the Indian Ocean to India.

As for the Russian experts, this submarine is still in our warranty. And it is a common practice when the so-called group supervision warranty stays with the boat in India. They are there just for the fact that all these small imperfections and remove the comments, if necessary, call the contractors, etc. And as far as I know, no one has reported that on this boat there were any complaints, claims .

By the way, according to media reports, Russian experts still do not admit to the place of incident. Is this normal?

IK: First, of course, the commission, which is headed by Commander of the Indian Navy, will be to understand the state of emergency on their own. Agree, and we also do not attract foreign talent that we have something like this happens. But in this case, the Russian side has submitted a proposal to use in the commission of Representatives and the Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin", where the boat was designed, and the "Admiralty Shipyards", where it was built, and, of course, ship repair center "asterisk", where it was upgraded. We are ready to provide all possible assistance to the Indians, as this accident is not only important for the Indian Navy, but also for us in the first place. As for us, too, similar models are in service.

And what can you say about the reputational losses for Russia because of this accident?

IK: They have a place to be. And India is indeed one of the main exporters of our weapons, especially in the field of naval technology. Everyone knows that they have taken on lease for 10 years, our nuclear submarine "Nerpa", they are waiting for our aircraft carrier - the former "Admiral Gorshkov", they ordered the construction of the frigates.

Therefore, our task now - to take an active part in the analysis of the accident, identify the problem and understand what may have happened to some of the most reliable boats that are built for more than 20 years and are in service with many navies.

And I believe that our primary task is not that at all costs to prove that we are not responsible for the accident, and thoroughly understand its causes in order to ensure that this does not happen in the future. Loss of reputation, of course, important, but, in my opinion, they are secondary.

And say a few words about this series of submarines. Why is it called the common people "from Warsaw?" What kind of weapon it is completed?

IK: "Varshavyanka" her nickname because at the time we started building these submarines in the first place for us and for the countries - participants of the Warsaw Pact. These boats, as I said, are very simple to operate, not primitive, that is simple, reliable and has a good combat capabilities.

And at the center of ship repair "asterisk" she went modernization that included installation of new avionics, navigation equipment, primarily new weapons. On board the boat was blown up 14 armed torpedoes and four anti-ship missiles of the joint Russian-Indian development.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2013 13:17

Russian Deputy PM Rogozin comment on the tragedy

Rogozin: Technology is not considered as a cause of emergency with the submarine India

"The very first information was that the explosion occurred in the compartment where the battery was charging for the submarine. This is the most dangerous job, which is not so much with the manufacturers of these units, but with the safety precautions that must be maintained at a high level. Therefore, the first suspicions of our experts - is likely to safety issues. While we're on the technique do not sin, "- said Rogozin, reports RIA "Novosti" .

According to him, to seek the causes of the incident are already involved nine experts - they are now at the base of the submarine fleet in India. "And, of course, I ordered the leadership of the United Shipbuilding Corporation to send more experts in agreement with the Indian side to participate in the investigation of the tragedy and to provide full support to our Indian friends," - said Deputy Prime Minister.

He believes that the main lift, has announced a technology or human error. "But whatever the result, India - this is our leading partner in not only the purchase of military equipment ready - that is our leading partner for the future establishment of a joint creation of special military equipment. We will help India to build capacity in this business ", - assured Rogozin.

"We grieve together with our Indian friends as members of the crew were killed," - he concluded.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Philip » 16 Aug 2013 13:40

Some relevant info on our Kilos from Rubin in the latest "F" mag. F was in Russia at the "International Maritime Defexpo" at St.Petersburg.They with both Rubin and Malachite design bureaus.here are some excerpts with senior execs of the two Russian sub bureaus.

Rubin Bureau:
Dy.Dir. for Foreign Economic Activities,Andrey Baranov.

Lifespan of a diesel-electric sub (kilo) is 25 yrs.Life extension poss. only after an extensive inspection of the sub,preferably after 10 yrs."We have been discussing this with the In for many years....but the IN has still not asked us for a detailed inspection."

The first Kilo arrived in 1986 and last (S'Shastra) in 2000.Even if the class is the same,the vintage is different,hence "modernisation or refit that each boat can undergo will be different.Now when the navy is equipping them with Klub,the individual lives of the sub is coming in the way."
"After all,there is only this much that one can do to a platform which comes with a sell-by date."

We now are left theoretically with 13 subs.9 Kilos and 4 U-boats.Of the Kilos,two are over 25 yrs. old,no life extension.One more will enter retirement age by this year end.Furhtermore,the mainteneanc eand reliability of two more subs will be questionable within the next two years.We will then have approx. only 10 subs operational.Our coastline/EEZ is approx. 2.3 million sq/km.,660,000+ sq/km of the A&N islands alone.We also have our interests well away from our coastline and EEZ.

F states that unfortunately,the "Indian rate of development" came in the way of our ambitious programme started in the late '90s.In 2000,a delagation from Rubin came to India and offered to us the Amur,also examining Indian shipyards for the same purpose for the subs to be built abroad and locally.3+3.WE never took the talks forward.The thinking at that time was to first produce a western design then a follow on Russian one and combine the best of east and west for a future indigenous sub.The result,the Scorpene is "frightfully delayed" and at exorbitant cost,almost 3 times its original estimate,and the RFP for line-2 is now overdue by a decade.

The Q asked by F as to why the Amur was being offered instead of more advanced Kilos,was that the new sub would better fit in with the IN's requirements.Smaller crew,35 only,can carry a salvo of 6 cruise missiles,Brahmos variant also available,has a Russian AIP system ( that uses electro-chem generator using navan fuel,diesel,to produce hydrogen on-board and generate power that is supposedly safer than the German fuel-cell which requires hydrogen to be stored ashore,) be that the French MESMA which is noisier and heavier,and less power capacity.

We are yet to make up our minds and if the track record is anything to go by,it will be several years from now before the MOD will make up its minds as to which sub will be chosen.Given the grave situ that exists,it is for the IN to swiftly decide upon an interim solution,and force the MOD/GOI to go in for a most yrgent acquisition of extra subs, so that force levels are not irretrievably compromised ,especially at a most vulnerable state of security that exists right now.

Malachite bureau:

Ready to provide "Chakra-3" if asked,said Vladimir Dorofeev,GM of the Malachite design bureau,builder of the Akulas.IN Naval officers have expressed a wish for more of the same during the Chakra-2's commissioning at **** and the Russians are willing to help.
Reg. help/further help for the ATV programme,he said that that could not be discussed as it was in the "political domain".Nevertheless,that domain aside,provided there was "political clearance",the bureau was ready to help.

On new Russian subs like the Yasen,Onyx/BMos will be launched from vertical silos.A new "universal launcher" has been developed,like a revolver magazine which can fire "5 different types of missiles at a time".
Talks took place a year-and-a-half ago on smaller diesel boats and mini-subs like the small 3 man crew titanium hulled "piranha" class,meant for covert ops.

"It takes two to tango.Just as the Indians can learn from us,so too can we learn from them.Indian expertise in software and radio tech. is well known",saying that the two sides can work together in developing "tactical diesel subs".

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Arunkumar » 16 Aug 2013 14:08

If Con is ousted next year, HDW will become kosher again. Time to dust off the blue prints and start building those at the MAzgaon Docks if scorpene is too expensive. Acc to wiki 2 more HDW were to be built , which were camcelled after 1998 shakti tests.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2013 15:09

Russian specialists not allowed to sunken submarine site in Mumbai

Specialists of the working group from the Severodvinsk-based ship repair centre Zvyozdochka are not allowed to the submarine accident site for the third day, a member of the group said on Friday. The diesel-powered submarine Sindhurakshak, which sank in the port of Mumbai, was repaired and modernized at the Severodvinsk centre.

"I was told that we would not be allowed there soon," the specialist said. "All my attempts are in vain."

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Philip » 16 Aug 2013 15:27

Arvin,there's nothing left of the infrastructure fro building U-boats.All the technical staff too are long gone.The blueprints are obsolete and newer U-212/214s are already in service with other navies.The U-boats are also too small to accommodate BMos and the Russians will not allow Klub to be installed on a western boat.A few years ago,3 or 4 I think,I advocated us ordering 4 more U-boats to augment/replace those in service,as we were operating German subs.The Scorpenes were nowhere on the horizon.Had the GOI done that,ordering more of the same without the need for opening up a new tender and the usual babu "passenger" service,we would've ahd at least 2 by now.The Greeks who ha dordered new U-boats were also bankrupt and couldn't pay for their subs.We should've seized that opportunity as the Germans refused to sell Pak subs because they feared that the Pakis would give the tech to the Chinese.We now have reports that the next gen. of Chinese subs (which will be passed on to Pak in course of time) will be powered by German engines!!!

While talks are on for the second Akula,which supposedly will be a variant of the Akula,having vertical silos for BMos,possibly the new "universal launcher",which can fire 5 diff. types of missiles from a single launcher,even if ordered within this year,will take at least 3-4 years to arrive.The urgent need is for a few extra Kilos ,perhaps on lease from Russia,until new build subs arrive.I've posted above the precarious state of our Kilo fleet,where within two years we may see 3 more subs being retired or unfit for operations.There are 6 new subs being built for Vietnam,perhaps the Vietnamese may let us have one of theirs early,as we are supposed to be helping them with training their submariners.The time has come for the IN/MOD/GOI to ask for favours from "old friends".

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 16 Aug 2013 15:55

Electro static discharge is highly unlikely
Mumbai Humidity in August month only Chennai can beat,
Also it's all happening at berth so very humidity unless there was a huge dehumidifier working?


For ESD the atmosphere has to be extremely dry

Like in winter when the cold temp sucks out humidity from air and all you winter clothing is full of
ES
People in US experiences visitors from India are often Shocked

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby vasu raya » 16 Aug 2013 16:45

Are there any electricians in the list of those dead? usually they are hands-on than the officers, Russians are saying that the full complement of the crew of 52 wasn't present, usually required for maintenance work, maybe thats just translation, probably they meant loading and prepping the sub for operational patrol.

A missile or a torpedo as a system might be foolproof however an individual pyro catridge or a detonator that arms a torpedo or a missile may not be, it would be easy to apply electric arcing and or hydrogen blast to weapon components being loaded onto the sub to see if they go off

Apart from that the scenario looks like that of a pressure cooker including initial blast waves messing with those hatches. One hopes there would be design changes such as thermal and blast isolation of the weapons bay from the rest of the sub, remember in the context of Indian missiles specifically RVs, in a video a square panel was shown to a reporter where they lit a gas weld torch on one side and the reporter had his hand on the other side not feeling a tinge of heat.

if they redo the currently cut-open Kilo sub at Vizag Sindhukirti? maybe they could fit 650mm torpedo tubes as well enabling the firing of Brahmos.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 16 Aug 2013 17:04

tell me which safety-critical technology product in the world that is not built for safety criticality?

no one can ignore operational requirements... or was the operational aspects ignored the design specifications? or it was an operational flaw?

one can't bring in an argument about the design safety feature, without even understanding what the event was all about. can we pull out the submarine, and examine it to determine the actual cause? we are ignoring forensics because the data is unreachable.. again, even if the sub is pulled out.. i am not sure, how much of data will be thrown open to public.

so,... keep that as well in the minds.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby vasu raya » 16 Aug 2013 17:38

SaiK, nothing is ideal, think about the battery fire on the latest design Dreamliner or the engine failures on A380. Here according to news reports there was one small blast followed by 2 big ones, latest news report say either a Klub missile or torpedo detonated onboard, so despite all safety features a cook off happened. The first blast is the real mystery.

the Navy chief was ruing the fact that none of the alarm systems went off after the initial blast and fire, could such an explosion may have severed the power conduits from the battery compartment?

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2013 18:10

imo its kind of pointless to invest in non-AIP SSKs at this stage of our evolution. no such sub can expect to operate in a hostile env swarming with undersea sensors and PLAN ASW units like the south and east china sea. even a AIP SSK is hamstrung by low submerged speed in getting away after landing a strike...helicopters and FFG units will run it down easily in a tail chase.

some say we need them for TSP . I ask why do we need them for TSP ? TSP ships pose no real threat to us. TSP subs are best taken care of by ASW units and dont need SSK for it. we dont need to sneak around the TSP coast to land a hit, we can send in the IAF to flatten the mil units and launch brahmos from ships.

so why are investing a ton of $$ in scorpene and SSK in general?

why cant MDL start building a second line of hunter killer N-subs to speed things up?

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 16 Aug 2013 18:15

In the list there are two electrical/electronics NCOS and at least 1 mechanical NCOi n the list so far

BT the who's FOC inC of western command?

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby manjgu » 16 Aug 2013 18:25

gurus..do u think its possible to prove that there was sabotage? what kind of evidence would point to sabotage??

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Pranay » 16 Aug 2013 18:41

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-23721958

Diving teams have been working "non-stop" to get inside the submarine since rescue operations began on 14 August, the navy said.

"Access to the inner compartments of the submarine was made almost impossible due to jammed doors and hatches, distorted ladders, oily and muddy waters inside the submerged submarine resulting in total darkness and nil-visibility even with high power underwater lamps," the spokesman told reporters on Friday morning.

Divers were only able to reach "the second compartment behind the conning tower" where three bodies were found "after 36 hours of continuous diving effort", he said, adding that the bodies had been sent to the naval hospital for possible DNA identification.

The fourth body, which was found later, has also been sent for identification.

The state of the bodies and conditions within the submarine "led to [the] firm conclusion that finding any surviving personnel within the submarine is unlikely", the spokesman said.

The operation was made even more difficult "as the explosion and very high temperatures, which melted steel within, would have incinerated the bodies too", he added.

"However, the navy will continue to search every inch of the submarine till all bodies are either located or it can be stated with finality that no bodies remain to be found.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Pranay » 16 Aug 2013 19:04

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/world ... world&_r=0

The bodies were so disfigured that officials intend to use DNA analysis to identify them, according to a statement from the navy. The state of the bodies, along with conditions within the vessel, which sank early Wednesday, have led to the “firm conclusion that finding any surviving personnel within the submarine is unlikely,” the statement said.

Boiling water within the submarine, the Russian-made INS Sindhurakshak, made it impossible for divers to even enter the vessel until noon on Wednesday, hours after the explosions that sank it, the navy said. Once the divers were inside, oily and muddy water made for zero visibility even with high-powered underwater lamps.

The damage from the explosions resulted in so much twisted metal that only one diver at a time could work in the submarine’s tiny spaces. After 36 hours of continuous effort, the divers finally reached a compartment early Friday where they found the three bodies, the navy’s statement said.


Extremely high temperatures in the forward section of the submarine meant not only that the sailors there were almost certainly dead, but that their bodies were probably incinerated, the navy said. “However, the navy will continue to search every inch of the submerged submarine till all bodies are either located or it can be stated with finality that no bodies remain to be found,” the statement said.

The cause of the explosions on the 16-year-old Sindhurakshak remain a mystery. Mohan Guruswamy, a military analyst with the Observer Research Foundation, said he visited the submarine the day before the explosion and found it to be “in great shape.”

Mr. Guruswamy said the crew was preparing for a departure early Wednesday morning on a routine patrol, and he speculated that munitions were mishandled during the preparations. “The feeling among naval officers is that while loading the missiles, something happened,” said Mr. Guruswamy, who praised the crew as “very smart, very tough guys.”


Deep Kumar, whose brother, Lt. Cmdr. Alok Kumar, was one of three officers on the submarine when it blew up, said he and his parents had been keeping a vigil in Mumbai waiting for news. He said the family had spoken with his brother the night before the explosion. “He was fine, and there was no indication of any danger or wrongdoing,” Mr. Kumar said.

He said the navy had told them there was no chance that his brother was alive, because temperatures in the submarine had risen past 500 degrees Celsius, or about 900 Fahrenheit, after the explosion.

“We are hoping against hope,” he said.
Last edited by Pranay on 16 Aug 2013 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 16 Aug 2013 19:04

manjgu wrote:gurus..do u think its possible to prove that there was sabotage? what kind of evidence would point to sabotage??

we have no data to even prove things based on some remote video.. what kind of proofs are your searching?

a sabotage option should not be ruled out is an option on the table.. nothing can be proved without forensics.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Pranay » 16 Aug 2013 19:31

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/world ... world&_r=0

Mr. Guruswamy said the Sindhurakshak was the navy’s most advanced submarine and had Indian-made sensor equipment that made it more effective than its Russian designers and builders had envisioned. The submarine carried cruise missiles that allowed it to strike targets on land more than 100 miles away.

Officials believe that a small explosion within the submarine triggered two huge blasts from its onboard munitions. Video of the explosions seems to show two separate bursts that threw flames hundreds of feet into the air. The Sindhurakshak’s sister ship, the INS Sindhuratna, was berthed nearby and was damaged by the explosion but was saved by the quick reaction of firefighters.

The Sindhurakshak had 21 sailors on its night watch, but three of the men were stationed on the submarine’s exterior and managed to dive for safety.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby NRao » 16 Aug 2013 19:38

The Sindhurakshak had 21 sailors on its night watch, but three of the men were stationed on the submarine’s exterior and managed to dive for safety.


Perhaps the very best source for what may have happened.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2013 19:49

I feel its impossible to come to a precise conclusion why the explosion occured be it internal or external because the impact of the blast was so large that the people who could speak are perhaps no more and the forsenic evidence what ever existed would have been washed over by sea water and impact of blast.

So what they would end up likely is with something reasonable based on what ever they can find/get from Submarine and a theory that would explain what might have happened that can justify it.

Even world over where a US Submarine was suppose to have been hit by its own torpedo when it was launched and couldnt find any thing except the submarine that launched it and Kursk tragedy where mishandling of Type 65 torpedo causing a leak and subsequent blast during launch are the probably the closest they have got to know about the accident.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Philip » 16 Aug 2013 20:24

I agree.there will be little or no forensic evidence as the intensity of the blast has been so extensive and even debris that might shed a clue would've been ejected far into the waters from the video pic footage which shows some rocket like projectiles traversing the sky.As I at the base might be the best said earlier,security CCTV at the base might offer some footage of the moments before and after the explosion.There is also no word about the dockyard loaders/staff assisting the watch crew,of whom only 3 survived.The IN would've immediately clamped down any info. from leaking out until the BOI has satisfied itself as to the causes.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 16 Aug 2013 20:49

^from that nytimes link

“The feeling among naval officers is that while loading the missiles, something happened,”

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Pranay » 16 Aug 2013 21:03

Philip wrote:There is also no word about the dockyard loaders/staff assisting the watch crew,of whom only 3 survived.


Philip - While the 3 surviving Navy personnel may be able to clarify certain questions/events - as a rule (from my experience in the USN) - no civilian "dockyard loaders" are utilized in loading anything into naval assets leave alone during munitions transfer.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Pranay » 16 Aug 2013 21:49

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ins-s ... eststories

The Indian Navy today said that the bodies of five of 18 sailors who were inside the INS Sindhurakshak when it went up in flames have been found, but cautioned that it does not expect divers battling zero visibility in the dark muddied waters inside the sunken submarine to locate any of the others. (List of 18 personnel who were on board the submarine)

Three bodies were found this morning on the diesel-powered submarine and are "severely disfigured and not identifiable due to severe burns," a Navy statement said (Read). It added that DNA tests will be conducted for identification.

A fourth sailor was found two hours later. The fifth body was found this evening.


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