Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Mayurica
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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Mayurica » 31 Aug 2013 09:31

Thanks so much for appreciating LOD. Unfortunately, Times Now has not retailed the episodes on DVD, despite having pleaded them to do so. They do re-telecast the series once a year or so. The good news is that there are a few eps on youtube (sukhoi, special forces and ins viraat) and ive pasted some of the links here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNMJf53nb2o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03GoukFXc8I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB6b5bxbxmY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKvDaSS6v1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNMJf53nb2o

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 31 Aug 2013 10:30

Thanks Mayurica, I have seen all of these which is why I wanted to see the rest and have the whole series. Do you know when they are telecasting it next and whether one can see it streaming on the website?

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Mayurica » 31 Aug 2013 11:36

Sorry, I have no idea. But the next time they re-telecast, Ill try and keep you posted.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lalmohan » 31 Aug 2013 13:43

rajatmisra, if what we hear is true then the sub is beyond repair and can only be broken up for salvaging the steel. most likely flotation devices will be used to get her up to the surface

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Kapil » 31 Aug 2013 17:06

Hi Mayurica,
I din't know you posted here.
Welcome aboard!

Kapil

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 31 Aug 2013 17:26

rajatmisra wrote:A basic question. If we do manage to raise the sub with the help of a heavy crane, what will be done next?
1. Keep it on the side of the dock to be dismantled
2. Put it on a floatation device so it can be floated away to a dry dock
3. Repair it while it is n the crane so that it can float on its own, and then tow it away

Any other option?


3 has been ruled out after explosion and also the rescue operation might have added more damage to the hull

1 is ruled out as it is like Hurricane sandy damaged car with sand and mud ingested into everything
It also adds to the weight and by this time some things might have started corrosion

2 is only viable option to make it museum piece memorial or at most some sort experimental object

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 01 Sep 2013 02:33

the only inputs is how to separate the launch chamber to staff /sailor chamber, and for that we don't need the damaged sub. museum piece it shall be after fixing the hull.

all of the design inputs is for the torpedo rather.. how to prevent accidental discharge, or how to have two modes of ops, exercise mode, and ops mode. .. dunno if that is even a possibility, but highly challenging.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Manish_Sharma » 01 Sep 2013 06:26

Mayurica wrote:Sorry, I have no idea. But the next time they re-telecast, Ill try and keep you posted.


Mayurica your blog says Su 30mki takes 60 to 70 man hours to be prepared for a strike mission.

Do you happen to have figures for mirage 2000 too? Also was this preparation time a big priority in 600 + points for MMRCA?

Great blog, great work. TIA!

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby rajatmisra » 01 Sep 2013 09:31

Evn if it cannot be used for regular patrols, can it be used for training? Undertake an occasional short voyage?

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 01 Sep 2013 20:17

Not really. There is big 10m dia hole from the explosion.
Yet the wreck has to be salvaged, bodies recovered, ordnance and any sensitive electronics removed and cut up to restore ops at the dockyard.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2013 04:49

About two weeks after the incident have they figured out what actually happened abroad the sub?

How was the fire started and who many and what exploded causing the death so 18 sailors and the 10m hole in the double hull?


wiki has a page which gets updated regularly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Sindhurakshak_(S63)

Eleven otu of 18 bodies recovered. Six identified and sent for last rites.

Wish we had people posting the news reports as they come in.

Anyway COI should be over in two more weeks.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby geeth » 05 Sep 2013 10:01

Ramana,

Navy is aghast and given the complexity of the systems onboard, reconstructing the accident is difficult. So, truth may not be known, and even if known, will never be known to the public. This is from horse's mouth and discouraged me from further query.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2013 20:18

I dont think its time to be aghast. That part is over. Its time to reconstruct and learn lessons to prevent future occurences.

And India and the world will demand it after induction of Arihant. So can't be aghast and be an ostrich hiding under OAS rules. No need to publish but the IN has to be satisfied and satisfy SFC that they can be depended upon.

Is this more complex then the two space shuttle accidents? Not really.


What the IN has to do is constitute a multi-disciplinary failure analysis team and go about it methodically. Will take six to 12 months but let them go on. The wreck has to be raised to see what was the real damage.

From the data so far we can rule out many legs of the fault tree:
- battery leak ruled out
- personnel inexperience
- sabotage remote
- Only active leg is the loading of weapons

Was this the first time that those type of weapons were being loaded?

Revisit all the SOPs for load out and see what cautions and warnings are there and are they adequate?

There must be a dummy training facility somewhere.

Repeat the load out procedures and hook up ESD meters to see whats happening.
How many tries are allowed to load a weapon into a launch tube?

What really blew up? Torpedo or missile? How many were discharged?
We hear one blew up inside the sub and another ejected? How did the second one eject?

Calling it "Allah ko payare ho gaya!" is not the right approach.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby rajatmisra » 05 Sep 2013 20:27

Is reconstruction of events really so difficult? The US space program has been able to figure out the issues behind every failure of their mission, that also serves as a pointer to things to be corrected. I refuse to believe that the events cannot be reconstructed to a fair bit of certainty, when the sub is lying right there in the harbour. Worst case scenario have an insitu inspection by draining water around. And the results have to be made public. It may be most convenient to say, "we don't know," but that's not the truth. If we try hard enough, get experts from premier academic institutions and industry, share everything openly, there is a fair chance tht the truth can be known.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Sep 2013 21:22

it should be possible to pinpoint where the explosions took place, what direction they took and the overall blast dynamics, although the chemical evidence may be weak after immersion in the sea. it should be possible to trace it back to the most likey items to have failed, and the probably causes of that failure

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 05 Sep 2013 21:30

We never learn unless we go public mistakes are made be it humans or divinity

I have a feeling its 95% human error that means we the fix is easy and can be taught not to make it.

In this world of Internet nothing is secret or sacrosanct

Also kilo is not home made there are others using it
Yes it is customized to IN that must be in electronics which we need not dissect for analysis except those pertaining to torpedo and missile CSG

Not disclosing means the same things will happen again and again.

The errors disclosure is to fix problem not people.

One more time read HMS Ulysses how mistakes can happen and this is sub

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Manish_Sharma » 06 Sep 2013 02:23

Years ago I saw on Nat Geo the last ConCorde Plane accident.

The program showed how they did the whole enquiry. First thing was they collected each and every part of the crashed plane. :shock:

Then they put it in a big warehouse kind of a place and went over each and every part.

This way they were able to pinpoint the cause.

What happened was before concorde some other old plane landed and a metal strip fell away from its frame.

On the same runway when concord took of that strip got under the tire, jumped up and hit the fuel tank, which started leaking. Then how it caught fire I don't remember.

But that they were able to find out from a wreck is just magical for me.

I'm sure we can figure out what went wrong. Hope the outdated secrets law doesn't prevent the truth to be made public.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 06 Sep 2013 02:33

Even PANAM that went down at Lockerbe in Scotland was again rebuilt but then luckily the PANAM went down ion land mass unlike Kanishka of IA

Sindhu case it's all washed out
Hope the COI and its findings are not

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 06 Sep 2013 11:03

Dhananjay wrote:Years ago I saw on Nat Geo the last ConCorde Plane accident.

The program showed how they did the whole enquiry. First thing was they collected each and every part of the crashed plane. :shock:

Then they put it in a big warehouse kind of a place and went over each and every part.

This way they were able to pinpoint the cause.

What happened was before concorde some other old plane landed and a metal strip fell away from its frame.

On the same runway when concord took of that strip got under the tire, jumped up and hit the fuel tank, which started leaking. Then how it caught fire I don't remember.

But that they were able to find out from a wreck is just magical for me.

I'm sure we can figure out what went wrong. Hope the outdated secrets law doesn't prevent the truth to be made public.


What purpose would be served in making the truth "public"??

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 06 Sep 2013 11:07

It build trust in the institutions
Else it will speculated by a gora like India's China War by Neville Maxwell
Credibility is short supply especially with this GOI
PRC occupies 640 sq kilometers says shinde no says saint Antonov
Let's figure

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 06 Sep 2013 11:57

Amyrao wrote:It build trust in the institutions
Else it will speculated by a gora like India's China War by Neville Maxwell
Credibility is short supply especially with this GOI
PRC occupies 640 sq kilometers says shinde no says saint Antonov
Let's figure


The sub is a classified military weapons system. The people who need to know will probably be kept in the loop. Processes have been revisited, instructions changed.

The root cause will probably be pinpointed later, if at all. Not because something has to be swept under the carpet but because everything including the carpet did not survive the disaster.

There are multiple national reputations riding on this investigation with other jittery operators waiting anxiously in the wings.

Heads will roll and budding careers have already been cut short.

Only generalities may emerge from the investigation publicly, if at all.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Sep 2013 21:40

chetak wrote:What purpose would be served in making the truth "public"??


Items that have to withstand public scrutiny are done better and more carefully.

If the report is never made public, it's too easy to take shortcuts and scapegoat someone and/or draw the wrong conclusions.

I'll ask the converse: what purpose would be served in hiding the truth from the public?


chetak wrote:The sub is a classified military weapons system.


Irrelevant, it doesn't require revealing classified information to say 'The missile was dropped when loading' or 'A manufacturing defect caused the batteries to leak hydrogen'.

The most important part of accident investigations is 'lessons learned'. And for lessons to be learned, it is important for that info to be widely distributed. You keep it all bottled up, you're just asking for someone else to repeat the same mistake.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 06 Sep 2013 23:19

GeorgeWelch wrote:
chetak wrote:What purpose would be served in making the truth "public"??


Items that have to withstand public scrutiny are done better and more carefully.

If the report is never made public, it's too easy to take shortcuts and scapegoat someone and/or draw the wrong conclusions.

I'll ask the converse: what purpose would be served in hiding the truth from the public?


chetak wrote:The sub is a classified military weapons system.


Irrelevant, it doesn't require revealing classified information to say 'The missile was dropped when loading' or 'A manufacturing defect caused the batteries to leak hydrogen'.

The most important part of accident investigations is 'lessons learned'. And for lessons to be learned, it is important for that info to be widely distributed. You keep it all bottled up, you're just asking for someone else to repeat the same mistake.


If at all anything does come out it will be something as banal as "the missile was dropped while loading" or some such guff. For sure, lessons will be learned in the in the Navy and any aggrieved party unfairly blamed will have recourse to legal action.

No body in the Navy or the internal supply chain will escape unscathed. Every single piece of hardware in stock will already have been minutely inspected and either rejected or cleared.

What's the public got to do with it??

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Sep 2013 23:39

chetak wrote:What's the public got to do with it??


I already addressed this.

1. Public disclosure of report ensures higher quality, much like open source software. Public scrutiny ensures that shortcuts weren't taken in the analysis and scapegoats weren't unfairly named.

2. Lessons learned have to be spread beyond the Navy. Most of the education sailors receive will be at schools BEFORE they join the Navy. Case studies of disasters are often used in university courses to help students learn what to look for and the consequences of failure. Similarly many components are sourced from commercial sources. If there was a manufacturing defect, learning why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again can't just be shared with the one manufacturer responsible, because the Navy might switch vendors in the future. It would be rather 'silly' (sad really) for the exact same issue to occur 10 years from now because the Navy switched from vendor A to vendor B but never bothered to explain to vendor B what to look out for. These sorts of lessons should be used to help the entire industry improve itself.

chetak wrote:If at all anything does come out it will be something as banal as "the missile was dropped while loading" or some such guff.


If a dropped missile caused this accident, it will reveal several other things.
1. Poor procedures. Dropping a missile should never be possible.
2. Poor design of the missile. A drop should never cause it to explode. This will then reveal several design considerations that everyone in the industry should be aware of.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 07 Sep 2013 01:47

GeorgeWelch wrote:
chetak wrote:What's the public got to do with it??


I already addressed this.

1. Public disclosure of report ensures higher quality, much like open source software. Public scrutiny ensures that shortcuts weren't taken in the analysis and scapegoats weren't unfairly named.

2. Lessons learned have to be spread beyond the Navy. Most of the education sailors receive will be at schools BEFORE they join the Navy. Case studies of disasters are often used in university courses to help students learn what to look for and the consequences of failure. Similarly many components are sourced from commercial sources. If there was a manufacturing defect, learning why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again can't just be shared with the one manufacturer responsible, because the Navy might switch vendors in the future. It would be rather 'silly' (sad really) for the exact same issue to occur 10 years from now because the Navy switched from vendor A to vendor B but never bothered to explain to vendor B what to look out for. These sorts of lessons should be used to help the entire industry improve itself.

chetak wrote:If at all anything does come out it will be something as banal as "the missile was dropped while loading" or some such guff.


If a dropped missile caused this accident, it will reveal several other things.
1. Poor procedures. Dropping a missile should never be possible.
2. Poor design of the missile. A drop should never cause it to explode. This will then reveal several design considerations that everyone in the industry should be aware of.


Weapons designers and all Navies are secretive by nature.

The IN has already REFUSED many offers of "help" because of the agenda of the people who want to "help".

Now you are asking for a public disclosure? It has rarely happened and at least not in India.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby GeorgeWelch » 07 Sep 2013 04:47

chetak wrote:Weapons designers and all Navies are secretive by nature.


The B-2 is fairly secretive, yet after its crash in Guam, there was extensive coverage of what went wrong along with a mind-numbingly detailed report on accident.

chetak wrote:The IN has already REFUSED many offers of "help" because of the agenda of the people who want to "help".


There is a difference between giving people unlimited access to classified equipment and publishing a report that can be scrutinized and scrubbed of any classified information.

chetak wrote:Now you are asking for a public disclosure?


Yes.

chetak wrote:It has rarely happened and at least not in India.


Detailed accident reports are not unknown in India:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... aguar.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ins-j ... oo/272630/
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10937

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby rajatmisra » 07 Sep 2013 10:27

There should have been a parliamentary committee looking into serious accidents. If the armed forces are to be held accountable, this is absolutely necessary.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 07 Sep 2013 12:31

rajatmisra wrote:There should have been a parliamentary committee looking into serious accidents. If the armed forces are to be held accountable, this is absolutely necessary.


parliamentary committee or no, the IN is squarely responsible and accountable for this shameful mishap.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Sep 2013 19:01

cant call it shameful unless you know the root cause to be shameful
since we dont know the root cause
lets wait and see

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 07 Sep 2013 19:24

Lalmohan wrote:cant call it shameful unless you know the root cause to be shameful
since we dont know the root cause
lets wait and see


one more in a long line of shameful incidents,saar.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby vasu raya » 08 Sep 2013 00:05

The root cause would not be identified in 4 weeks time, one would be lucky to have an answer so soon. Mostly likely, sequence of events that transpired would be reported.

Anyways, Ground penetrating or Wall penetrating radars can look through silt and muddy sea waters albeit limited to few feet depth, and after 26/11 DRDO was actually developing those, one would expect at least a basic prototype at this point of time that can be used inside the stricken sub, wonder why that didn't happen?

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby rajatmisra » 08 Sep 2013 16:24

I am wondering what the reaction had been if the sub had undergone a major refit at an Indian shipyard and such an accident had happened.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby merlin » 10 Sep 2013 18:02

chetak wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:cant call it shameful unless you know the root cause to be shameful
since we dont know the root cause
lets wait and see


one more in a long line of shameful incidents,saar.


What would be the root cause chetak?

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby titash » 10 Sep 2013 21:18

IMHO, root cause analysis isn't as simple as it is made out to be.

I work in high volume semiconductor manufacturing, and root cause analysis for defect/quality excursions is a regular part of my job. Sometimes you do find a smoking gun, and sometimes not. Very often it boils down to a resource issue - how many man hours can you spend trying to dig something from the ruins vs. doing other things.

Perhaps for national armed forces, resource constraints are not that big an issue - specially when capital ships are a bottleneck asset.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_20292 » 10 Sep 2013 22:42

^^^^

Interdasting. I am in a similar field too. Make recipes at times, do SEM at other times.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 11 Sep 2013 11:10

mahadevbhu wrote:^^^^

Interdasting. I am in a similar field too. Make recipes at times, do SEM at other times.


I am a professionally certified auditor currently cleared for five standards :)

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 11 Sep 2013 11:14

merlin wrote:
chetak wrote:[quote="{almohan"}cant call it shameful unless you know the root cause to be shameful
since we dont know the root cause
lets wait and see{/quote}

one more in a long line of shameful incidents,saar.


What would be the root cause chetak?


Here you go. Painful as it is, I have agree completely with the author

INS Andaman, INS Vindhyagiri, INS Sindhurakshak, next INS?

BY SHAILESH RANADE

The footage on TV was crystal clear. Both, light and sound could be seen and heard miles away. Definitely, a part of INS Sindhurakshak has been blown to smithereens. I am aghast at ‘naval experts’ who say that Sindhurakshak can be put back into action. This asset is a complete loss.

For the Naval Chief to state that he does not know the extent of damage is, both, right and wrong. He may not know the extent of internal damage but the Navy would know the external damage within a few hours. Naval divers would have gone around the vessel with underwater cameras and completed the videography in less than two hours. This itself would have provided a clue of what had exploded, prima facie.

But this piece is not about blaming the Sub Commander or his crew. They have acquitted themselves bravely under the most stressful conditions that exist in our forces today. Holistically, the Navy is no different than the Army or the Air Force.

The present day Armed Forces are run on a day-to-day basis by two Bollywood terms. “Chalta Hai” and “Bhagwan Bharose”.

If the Board of Inquiry (BOI) were to carry out an impartial Root Cause Analysis, the blame would go to the very top. Yes, the very top. This is a systems failure. It is not whether the detection sensors were working or not. It’s not about the substandard material state, even though it had been recently retrofitted. It’s not about the possible casual attitude of the crew. The point is how did the Navy get to this state?

The Navy Chief has admitted on national television that the “safety mechanisms have not functioned”. My dear Chief, why was the submarine fully loaded up and operational, if even basic safety devices were not working? It is obvious, that the Sub Commander would have had a long list of deficiencies, but all his pleadings would have been overlooked to make the Sub operational. This is an example of systems failure that reaches the very top.

There are a couple of reasons for this:

Officers down the line are encouraged to hide defects and lie. A ship reporting a defect is taken as a demerit. Therefore on paper, a ship/submarine/ aircraft would appear to be sea worthy and combat worthy when everyone knows it is not.

Ninety per cent of the work carried out in the dockyards is only during overtime. Wonder how productivity is measured? The culture is to while away your time (9 to 4) and make double money thereafter. This is often rushed through towards the end of the refit.

The QA/QC and Certification Authorities are a joke when in fact they should be the most ruthless. Nobody takes them seriously. After all, they too, need to get promoted.

Arbitrary austerity measures that make our platforms operate with deficient and substandard equipment. The time has come for our Chiefs to thump the PM’s table.

Original foreign spare parts that may well be outsourced to some Ludhiana spare parts dealer. That’s indigenisation for us.

The BOI should fearlessly probe senior officers and their role in this catastrophe. The identification of the root cause will automatically bring about a proactive rather than a reactive culture. In addition, a non-punitive policy towards problem identifiers is required.

The Submarine that cost the taxpayer Rs 1500 crores is lost. Eighteen sea warriors are “missing” for no fault of theirs. This is the costliest 60 seconds the country has ever had.

Sindhurakshak was only a conventional submarine. Imagine if it was a nuke? The “Chalta Hai” and “Bhagwan Bharose” culture has to go. This can only trickle from the top to the bottom. And yes, heads have to roll please.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby prashanth » 11 Sep 2013 17:02

Chetak ji,

Sindhurakshak was only a conventional submarine. Imagine if it was a nuke? The “Chalta Hai” and “Bhagwan Bharose” culture has to go. This can only trickle from the top to the bottom. And yes, heads have to roll please.


Will this incident force some improvements in our navy's safety procedures? I'm actually worried about INS Arihant now.

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Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 11 Sep 2013 17:14

prashanth wrote:Chetak ji,

Sindhurakshak was only a conventional submarine. Imagine if it was a nuke? The “Chalta Hai” and “Bhagwan Bharose” culture has to go. This can only trickle from the top to the bottom. And yes, heads have to roll please.


Will this incident force some improvements in our navy's safety procedures? I'm actually worried about INS Arihant now.


prashanth ji,

A swift and well deserved kick in the pants has been rudely administered up to and including the top.

A very "hard hold" clamp down on procedures has already been initiated and critical reviews well under way.

The tried & tested Bata management of the Navy will dominate other methods of management for some time to come. The safe induction of the Vik is very actively bothering the powers that be. Arihant was always a major worry.

ramana
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2013 01:30

I think there is confusion between Root Cause (the cause that caused the incident) and underlying circumustances that alloweed the cause to fester.
The underlying circumustances did not cause the sub to sink.
Its the root cause that caused the sub to sink.
An effective corrective action will address both the root cause and the underlying circumustances.


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