Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Eric Leiderman
BRFite
Posts: 353
Joined: 26 Nov 2010 08:56

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Eric Leiderman » 20 Sep 2013 04:44

These super cranes are super expensive and the work to keep them busy will come in mainly fm shipyards that do modular construction. They could also be used in infrastructure construction along waterways and bridges etc

However for a one off job like this thread is all about it is best to hire a company that does on a daily basis.

member_27444
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby member_27444 » 20 Sep 2013 04:47

It's time to be innovative
We don't have to depend on any foreign skills or equipment.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 20 Sep 2013 06:15

I am all for innovation.. from super blocks to building cities in a year or so. everything we live can be build from blocks... this level of standardization will also remove corruption from contracting etc.. that runs for eons. focused attention to quality can be addressed while building these pre-fabricated blocks. we have used this technology to an extent for ADS as well.

had we had these super crains, we would have rakshaked the sindu rakshak. it is all about aiding the infrastructure... one can't keep deadlocked in thinking about cost, and not doing anything about it. super strucures need super engineering tools.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2013 07:09

Navy says sabotage didn’t sink Sindhurakshak



Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times New Delhi, September 20, 2013

After a month-long investigation, the Navy with the help of top Indian intelligence agencies have ruled out internal or external sabotage, particularly from Pakistan-based terror groups, in the sinking of Kilo-class submarine Sindhurakshak on August 14 at the Mumbai harbour.

“There may be other reasons for hull breach but we are sure that Sindhurakshak did not go down due to sabotage,” said a Navy commander. As of now, bodies of 11 Navy personnel have been recovered from the sunken vessel and identified on the basis of DNA tests but there is no sign as yet of the remaining seven victims.

Coming a week after Pakistan Army commandoes killed five Indian Army soldiers in Jammu’s Poonch sector on August 6, 2013, the submarine incident made the Indian Navy and Intelligence agencies examine the sabotage angle with a needle of suspicion on Pakistan-based groups.

Not only did the Intelligence agencies scour technical inputs and communication intercepts within the country and across the western border, the antecedents and past records of all those involved with Sindhurakshak were verified by the Navy intelligence to rule out internal sabotage.

While it appears that Islamabad itself was taken by surprise over the sinking, the possibility of any commando raid at the Mumbai harbour was ruled out as the Navy was on high alert after the Poonch killing and massive steel nets were protecting the ingress route into the anchorage area. In fact, two sister Kilo-class submarines were sent on sea patrol within two hours of the incident to neutralise any hostile intentions in the vicinity.

Movements, speeches and communication among terrorist groups across the border were kept under watch to unearth any involvement.

While the board of inquiry set up to investigate the submarine tragedy will only be able to give its report after the boat has been salvaged, there are indicators pointing to explosion in the torpedo chamber or on-board compressed oxygen cylinders.


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 21 Sep 2013 14:23

Singha wrote:are you sure the Borei is a double hull....design looks very similar to ohio class.


All Russian and Soviets subs are mostly double hull barring the Alfa class and few experimental subs , Borei and Yasen are double hull too.... only the Amur/Lada class conventional sub are single hull ...even Kilo are double hull.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 09 Oct 2013 04:41


ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 09 Oct 2013 04:47

I guess there are four aspects of this incident.
Technical: What happened exactly. Wont know till much later.

Systemic: Is there a fleet problem? What is the extent of the problem to other subs of same class or ships with same weapons? Again wont know till the technical issue is drilled down.

Cost and schedule: What is the investigation cost?What is the cost of changes to weapons and subs? And when can all this be complete? Again hinged on the technical and Systemic aspects.

Emotional: What emotional damage to the submarine service? The Navy? Strat forces command?The Ministry of Defence? Public? Already retired chiefs and experts are trying to quieten the angst but till the above three aspects ae investigated there will be a lingering doubt..

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 09 Oct 2013 07:13

and SoP failures.

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lilo » 22 Oct 2013 19:07



Was going through my old downloaded videos and came across above.Again was reminded of the magnitude of the loss.

RIP Sirs :|

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 10 Nov 2013 01:58

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20534

nothing from SoPs failure analysis /in chief

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 10 Nov 2013 04:13

So salvage contract will be awarded on Monday. Other things mentioned is important to discuss in the Naval thread...

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2013 03:55

some nostalgic thoughts from this pic:

Image
Indian submarine INS Sindhurakshak is up for an upgrade at Zvyozdochka Shiprepairing Centre at Severodvinsk in Russia in the year 2010. The submarine sank in an explosion while preparing for a long patrol in Mumbai three months ago, within a few months after the major refit. The yard, which refitted five submarines of the class, is likely to win a contract for life-extending refit of two Indian submarines of the class. Photo: The hindu

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2013 04:53

I think there are somethings that can be done without lifting the sub and corrective actions taken. Was there adequate shore based fire fighting equipment near the docked vessel? The first 15 minutes (arbitrary) could be critical after which it becomes uncontrollable. Maybe have a fire drill (with LED Light) to see reaction time of the ship's watch to spot and quench the 'fire' and adequate shore fire hoses near the docked vessels.
I am not sure that all that can be done has been done without the sunk vessel being raised.

Details of action taken after USN Miami fire

Link to USN Newport News

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2013 05:35

Peregrine wrote:Antony pulls up Navy on INS Sindhurakshak sinking

NEW DELHI : Pulling up the Navy on the sinking of the INS Sindhurakshak submarine in which 18 personnel lost their lives, defence minister AK Antony on Wednesday asked the force "not to fritter away" such expensive national resources.

Against the backdrop of incidents where some naval officers have been allegedly involved in sex scandals, the defence minister said, "There have been some isolated cases which have proved to be a cause for serious concern and embarrassment.

"It is imperative to pay utmost attention to such instances and make earnest efforts to minimize, if not eliminate them," he said at the Naval commanders' conference.

On the INS Sindhurakshak incident, Antony said there was a need to "seriously reflect upon the unprecedented tragedy, analyse it and also draw lessons for future even as attempts to salvage the submarine and an inquiry to ascertain the possible cause of the accident is already under way."

Antony said, "It must be ensured that safety mechanisms are accorded topmost priority and standard operating procedures adhered to strictly and without any exception."

The defence minister observed that a significant amount of national resources are utilized for nation building capabilities and "it is the responsibility of the Navy to optimally operate and maintain these assets and hardware, as well as train its personnel suitably so that such national resources are optimally utilized and are not frittered away."

The Sindhurakshak had sunk on August 14 with 18 personnel on board and a board of inquiry is still on to find out the exact causes behind the accident.

Cheers Image

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2013 05:37

Wonder if its the babus admonishing the Navy for the loss via AKAji? He wouldnt know what to talk.

Meawhile Singapore sub-rescue efforts article

http://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/under ... escue.html

Definite and Serious–The RSN's Commitment to Submarine Rescue
By Col. Ngong Boon Kheng, RSN
Commanding Officer, 171 Squadron

Incapacitated, alone and under the menacing depths of the vast sea, the only protection from the unforgiving pressures outside is the submarine steel hull some inches thick. These are the harsh realities Submariners will face in the unfortunate event of a distressed submarine (DISSUB) incident. Submariners should operate with a peace of mind borne of the assurance that no rescue effort will be spared should an emergency occur. Understanding the importance of submarine rescue, the Republic of Singapore Navy (RSN) has placed considerable emphasis in developing our Submarine Escape and Rescue (SMER) capabilities and advancing regional inter-operability in SMER.

Building the RSN’s Organic Submarine Rescue Capability

The RSN’s submarine history, though relatively short, has been a fruitful one. Our first submarine, RSS Conqueror, entered service in 2000, and this was followed by the commissioning of the remaining Challenger-class submarines. RSS Archer and RSS Swordsman, the first two Archer-class submarines, were commissioned in 2011 and 2013, respectively, and are the latest additions to the local submarine fraternity. Over the past decade, our Submarine Force has also gained much operational experience through participation in various RSN, bilateral and multilateral exercises, a number of which are SMER-related in nature. The knowledge and experience learned reinforced the RSN’s fundamental belief in the need for building a viable organic submarine rescue capability to respond more swiftly to contingencies.

This vision was realized in 2009 when we operationalized our submarine rescue system by leveraging available commercial expertise under a public-private collaboration with Singapore Technologies Marine and James Fisher Defence. Comprising an 85-metre submarine support vessel, MV Swift Rescue, and a 9.6- metre rescue submersible, Deep Search and Rescue 6 (DSAR 6), this fully integrated system is able to operate continuously for 28 days at sea and conduct rescue operations to a depth of 500 metres, even in harsh sea conditions of up to sea state 5.

MV Swift Rescue possesses a wide range of capabilities to conduct SMER operations. Its dynamic positioning capability enables the vessel to hover at a particular geographical position to conduct rescue operations, without the need for mooring. Together with a custom-built launch and recovery system on-board, it is able to launch the DSAR 6 within 15 minutes of arrival at the scene of the DISSUB.

Constant atmospheric pressure is maintained throughout the rescue operations; such a transfer-under-pressure protocol reduces the risk of decompression illness arising from sudden pressure changes. Pressure in the free-swimming DSAR 6 will be adjusted to match the DISSUB’s internal pressure before mating. DSAR 6 is capable of rescuing up to 17 submariners at a time. Upon recovery on-deck, the rescued submariners will be transferred from DSAR 6 to MV Swift Rescue’s 40-man recompression chambers (RCC) via a Deck Transfer Lock (DTL). They will be triaged and attended to by personnel specially trained in hyperbaric and diving medicine. Those who require intensive medical care can also be closely monitored in the high-dependency ward on-board, while others who require urgent surgery or further treatment at a tertiary hospital can be heli-evacuated to medical facilities ashore via the vessel’s helipad.

The rescue system is further supported by established shore-based medical facilities. The RSN’s Navy Medical Service (NMS) operates the Naval Hyperbaric Centre, which specializes in underwater medicine and provides recompression therapy for decompression illness on a 24/7 basis. This is complemented by civilian medical resources at the Hyperbaric and Diving Medicine Centre (HDMC) in the Singapore General Hospital (SGH), which was opened in 2009. Through close collaboration with SGH’s HDMC, the RSN is able to combine our experience and expertise in underwater medicine with SGH’s clinical expertise in critical care and holistic patient management, thus providing the best possible medical care for any rescued submariner.


Sharing and Collaboration —
Emphasizing the Importance of Multinational Cooperation

Beyond building a submarine rescue capability, the RSN strongly believes in the need to build and maintain a strong network for multilateral submarine rescue collaboration as more countries in the region acquire or enhance their submarine capabilities. Globally, there has been a strengthened focus on submarine rescue, partly due to the tragic loss of the Russian submarine Kursk (K 141) in August 2000 and the successful multilateral rescue of the Russian Priz-class mini-submarine AS-28 five years later. A significant lesson gleaned from these two incidents was the value of a robust, multi-agency, multinational submarine rescue ecosystem premised not just upon infrastructural, platform, and operational compatibility but, more crucially, upon mutual trust and understanding.

These relationships can only be built up through regular interactions such as exercises and exchanges. One such exercise is Exercise Pacific Reach, the region’s equivalent to NATO’s Exercise Bold Monarch1. This series of exercises has been very useful in providing participants with a good opportunity to collectively discuss submarine safety-related issues and practise SMER-related evolutions, thereby promoting trust and confidence among the participating navies.

The RSN hosted the inaugural exercise in 2000, and we continued our participation in the subsequent exercises.2 We hosted this exercise again in 2010, which saw the participation of navies from Australia, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Singapore, and the United States and military observers from 13 other countries.3 A key focus in 2010 was exercising the interoperability between submarine rescue vessels and DISSUBs. During the exercise, the RSN’s DSAR 6 successfully mated with the participating submarines. A medical symposium as well as a simulated evacuation and treatment of personnel from the DISSUB were also conducted.


The RSN’s other involvements towards promoting regional SMER cooperation includes participation in professional forums, such as the annual Asia Pacific Submarine Conference (APSC), which provides a platform for participants to exchange ideas and experiences on SMER. The RSN hosted the APSC in 2009 and co-hosted the event with the United States Navy in 2010. In addition, we participate in NATO’s Submarine Escape and Rescue Working Group (SMERWG) meetings4 to remain updated on the latest SMER developments and share our experiences in the Asia Pacific with international submarine-operating navies.

The RSN organised the inaugural Submarine Rescue Course in 2012 to promote SMER knowledge amongst regional submarine operators. The eight-day course was attended by 29 international participants5 and comprised a mix of classroom lessons, table-top exercises, and medical and SMER demonstrations. Topics covered included the Allied Tactical Publication (ATP) 57 on submarine search and rescue, and the use of the ISMERLO website.

The RSN is working towards establishing bilateral submarine rescue arrangements with other submarine-operating navies who operate in the region. In July 2012, such an arrangement was signed with the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL) laying the foundation between the RSN and the TNI AL in submarine rescue support and cooperation.
Bringing together leaders of regional submarine-operating navies and the practitioners of submarine rescue, the APSC is the premier forum for SMER dialogue and collaboration in the region.

In Concert and with Purpose –
Towards Multinational Submarine Rescue Collaboration

Safety of lives at sea is paramount, and the urgency of a DISSUB incident means that the importance of submarine rescue cannot be over-emphasized. Submarine rescue transcends international boundaries and there remains the pertinence for collective security in the field of SMER. To achieve the synergies and interoperability required in a multinational SMER effort, there is a need for regional collaboration and mutual trust and understanding between submarine operators and the SMER community. In our journey thus far, we have understood and experienced first-hand the importance of submarine rescue and multinational cooperation in SMER, and the RSN is now ready to join the larger SMER fraternity in a concerted and purposeful commitment towards the growth of submarine rescue in the region.


1 Exercise Bold Monarch is a triennial SMER exercise organized by NATO.
2 Exercise Pacific Reach was hosted by Singapore in 2000, Japan in 2002, Korea in 2004, Australia in 2007 and Singapore in 2010.
3 Observer nations included: Canada, China, France, India, Indonesia, Italy, Malaysia, Pakistan, South Africa, Sweden, Thailand, the United Kingdom and Vietnam.
4 The RSN attends the NATO-based SMERWG meetings as an invited participant.
5 The Submarine Rescue Course participants included military personnel from Australia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, the United States and Vietnam.



Maybe AKAji is willing to spend the money to create this capability in India now that INS Arihant is about to get its first sea trials?
Or just give bhashan in Lok Sabha?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 04 Dec 2013 04:09

TOI reports:

Recovering Sindhurakshak to cost hundreds of crores

Good news is three firms were shortlisted.

MUMBAI: The Centre and experts from the Indian Navy have shortlisted three foreign marine salvage operating companies for recovering the submarine, INS Sindhurakshak, which sunk at the naval dockyard on August 14 following a series of explosions in its forward portions. Out of the three, the final company will be chosen in the next few days and the cost for the salvage operation is estimated at around Rs 500 crore.

A defence source said according to the report submitted by the salvage companies, around 40 days will be required to lift the sunken submarine out of the water
.

Five salvage operating companies, including an Indian firm, applied for the job and each of them sent trained divers into the sea to ascertain possible methods of salvaging the 16-year-old vessel that exploded, killing 18 crew members on board. Based on the reports, three of the companies have so far been shortlisted; the two others' methods were not found technically too sound. "All three have qualified technically. In the next few days, the government will choose one of them, based on the salvage costs they have quoted. The government deals with the operation cost. I am neither aware of it nor will it be right on my part to comment on it," said Vice-Admiral (Flag Officer Commanding-In-Chief, Western Naval Command) Shekar Sinha during a press meet onboard INS Viraat on Tuesday, a day before the Navy Day on December 4.

A defence source said India bought INS Sindhurakshak in 1997 for $113 million and recently got it refitted for $156 million or around Rs 800 crore. "The salvage operation for the sunken submarine is estimated to cost around Rs 500 crore. It will also take a while to complete the entire exercise as 90% of the ordnance on the vessel is still intact. Among the five salvage companies, Svitzer Ocean Towage, Titan & Gol Consortium, SMIT Salvage, Resolve Salvage & Fire and Arihant Ship Breakers, the government is now having discussions with three of the shortlisted firms. Based on their technical reports, they will finalize the exact amount," the source said. "Normal gas-cutters cannot be used to open up the vessel as it can trigger blasts. So, equipment using the water-jet technology will be required and that can cost $8 million. The technology's operators, who charge $2,000 a day, will also have to be called from abroad."

According to Sinha, the final report in the INS Sindhurakshak explosion is yet to be prepared. "The final report can be prepared only after the Board of Inquiry Committee enters the sub after it is lifted. The team will then conduct the chemical analysis to ascertain the cause for the explosion. It is too early to jump to the conclusion. Also, the fleet of 16 submarines is going to undergo tests to check if all the vessels are in a proper condition," he said. After the explosion, divers could not go anywhere close to the submarine for three-four days. "Due to high temperature around the sunken submarine, the divers were unable to enter initially. Before sending them into the vessel, the divers were trained blind-folded inside a similar submarine," he said.





I hope they have conducted root cause analysis of the many failure modes and the sub entry for chem residue analysis is for confirmation only.

ALso without postulated failures, how can checks be conducted?

Can some folks volunteer to check out the five firms listed above?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 04 Dec 2013 04:26

Better news report from Zeenews quoting PTI

LINK

Mumbai: Nearly four months after submarine INS Sindhurakshak sank following a huge explosion and fire here, Navy divers are still looking for bodies of missing sailors in the wreckage of the warship.

"We have not stopped the search operation, our divers are still at the job. We are trying to find out if human remains can be found", said Vice-Admiral Shekhar Sinha, chief of Western Naval Command.

On August 14, a huge explosion rocked the Russian-made Kilo-class submarine, commissioned in 1997, leading to the frontline warship's sinking in what was seen as a major dent in the Indian Navy's firepower capability.

Eighteen Navy personnel, including three officers, were on board at the time of the mishap. Till now only 11 bodies have been recovered.

An inquiry was ordered by the government in the tragedy, but its details are not yet known.

Recalling the exercise undertaken by the Navy post the disaster, Sinha said a rescue operation was immediately launched by a team of divers, who had rehearsed with a similar type of submarine. "They were made to operate in zero visibility and then sent for rescue operation."

Once the submarine was lost, the Navy invoked the emergency clause of 'battle war casualty' and got the Principal Director of Naval Insurance to issue cheques to the families of the personnel killed in the tragedy, he said.

"All formalities related to payment of ex-gratia and other benefits were completed in 90 days", added Sinha.

Speaking about salvage operation, Sinha said bids received from three shortlisted companies were being currently examined to undertake the exercise to extricate the submarine.

Immediately after the Sindhurakshak disaster, Navy did an audit of all other submarines, their loaded weapons and the crew manning them, the officer said.

"We have to do a chemical analysis to find the cause of the explosion. We have to find out if it was an accident or some (human) mistake. We have to get to the root."

To a query, Sinha said the government was in the process of buying two more submarine rescue vessels.


On depleting number of submarines, he admitted the induction programme has not kept pace and the first indigenous warship will be available only in 2016.


PTI


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Austin » 04 Dec 2013 08:53

A Kilo Cutout

http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/MVMS-2011_PL_52.JPG

The battery is right at the bottom in the 3rd compartment

arijitkm
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 23:23

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby arijitkm » 04 Dec 2013 15:13

Navy hopeful of reusing sunken INS Sindhurakshak

Expressing hope of reusing the sunken INS Sindhurakshak submarine, the Navy today said its record was "not all that bad" in terms of accidents when compared to other navies in the world, soon after it was pulled up by Defence Minister AK Antony for the mishap.

"These (sinking of INS Vindhyagiri warship and INS Sindhurakshak) are isolated and separate cases. The reasons does not derive their linkage from previous cases. Operational risks are fraught in this business of armed forces.

"I would say that our record is not all that bad. We have had accidents there is no denying but if you compare with other navies...," Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi said in reply to a query related to sinking of two warships in recent times.
......
......
On whether the Navy was also looking at reusing the sunken submarine after the salvage process, he said, "That option is open".

"A separate board would be formed the moment the ship is salvaged. That board would have naval architects and engineers, they would undertake a 100 per cent though hull survey".

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 10 Dec 2013 09:16

???


Submarine fire may have been sabotage


MADHAV NALAPAT Mumbai | 17th Aug 2013


Indian Submarine INS Sindhurakshak

ntelligence professionals believe that the 14 August explosions which destroyed INS Sindhurakshak could have been caused by sabotage. They fault the Indian Navy for consistently refusing to credit negative reports about its own men, as recently evidenced in the treatment meted out to a female whistle-blower, who complained of improper behaviour on the part of a group of officers, but was soon jailed on unrelated charges. They see parallels with the frequent crashes of IAF fighter aircraft, some of which, a top intelligence professional warns, "may have come about because of deliberate sabotage during routine maintenance operations", a possibility that "has never been seriously considered". He pointed out that background checks on armed forces staff involved in sensitive duties was "a joke", and that "even matters of extreme relevance such as surfing habits on the internet were not ordinarily scanned". Nor "were offbase contacts with suspicious individuals", with "activities of staff while on leave or during their free time being almost completely missing from the radar". Others added that hostile intelligence services as well as non-state players "had the money needed to win over possible mercenaries willing to carry out sabotage".

Officers familiar with the Mumbai docks near the Reserve Bank of India claim that security is less than impressive, and that oftentimes the gates are guarded by "police personnel or retired servicemen armed with primitive weapons", including rifles "whose design dates back to World War II". An officer warned that "if Kasab and his mates had hit the Naval yards rather than fancy hotels, the consequences may have been catastrophic for the service". He claimed that "it would take more than 20 minutes for fully-equipped reinforcements to come to the yard, and during that time, a lot of damage can be done". Certainly the few lightly-armed guards at Lion's Gate (the entrance to the Mumbai naval yard) look inadequate.

Although Defence Minister A.K. Antony has ruled out sabotage, terming the explosion as a tragic accident, intelligence professionals set out scenarios in contrast to the "Act of God" line taken by the minister. Officers claim that India's submarine fleet, including those berthed in Mumbai, lack the "deepwater submarine pens" used by their counterparts in the United States or China, having to do with shallow waters where "they cannot hide from eyes in the sky". According to a senior professional, it would be easy for a trained person to ride an underwater "chariot" (essentially a torpedo-like vehicle atop which a man can ride through the water). Should this person have a modern diving suit, then "there would not even be telltale bubbles rising to the surface of the water to warn of his presence". However, others discount the theory of an explosive being placed on the submarine's hull from the outside, by pointing out that two more submarines were berthed side by side the stricken vessel and that "a saboteur could have placed such explosives on the sides of all three rather than on just one". However, they concede that "placing explosives at specific points" on the external skin of the submarine would "trigger subsequent explosions of ordinance" stored within the vessel.

They discounted the theory of a hydrogen leak, pointing out that the Sindhurakshak's batteries were charged a full three days before the explosions. More likely, in their view, was a "deliberate attempt to trigger an explosion through an inside job". Given the reluctance of the Ministry of Defence to examine the probability that the initial explosion was an act of sabotage, these intelligence professionals say that "the truth will get buried at sea rather than surface", the way other such enquiries into similar military mishaps have in the past, including in the other service arms.


merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2155
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby merlin » 10 Dec 2013 12:07

For refusing to even examine the sabotage angle, the saint's behaviour looks even more to me like wanting to purposely emasculate the forces further.

IA - sabotage artillery procurements by doing nothing, this is the most obvious one and so glaring that I can't but say that this sounds completely anti-national
IN - sabotage the second line of subs by doing nothing
IAF - sabotage the second line of tankers by doing nothing

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12714
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Dec 2013 15:16

last time i passed lions gate, looked pretty well protected to me... what am i missing?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 10 Dec 2013 16:11

Lalmohan wrote:last time i passed lions gate, looked pretty well protected to me... what am i missing?


It was, It is and always has been well protected, as are the other gates.

nalalayak is talking through his hat.

The IN has come down very severely on a few officers for shenanigans on face book etc. The orders for association with foreign nationals has always been enforced in the IN.

Maybe he is upset that pal tejpal is taking communal showers.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12714
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Dec 2013 16:53

that said, i did see some navy social facilities which were less well guarded... which surprised me

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 10 Dec 2013 23:31

Someone should ask those (un)"intelligence professionals" what caused the blue flash followed by the yellow flame?

The signature of the INS Sindhurakshak sinking is the blue flash followed by yellow flame. The subsequent fire caused the incinaration of the insides and the death of the crew members.


So all probable causes have to fit the signature or be discarded.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20784
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Prem » 11 Dec 2013 00:11

merlin wrote:For refusing to even examine the sabotage angle, the saint's behaviour looks even more to me like wanting to purposely emasculate the forces further.

IA - sabotage artillery procurements by doing nothing, this is the most obvious one and so glaring that I can't but say that this sounds completely anti-national
IN - sabotage the second line of subs by doing nothing
IAF - sabotage the second line of tankers by doing nothing


Not to Forget his "passive" role in harrasing, demoralizing Armed froces in geting decent retirement benefits.

TSJones
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3022
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby TSJones » 11 Dec 2013 03:01

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Conspiracy and internal sabotage is an easy way out.

Handling ordnance is a dangerous proposition, for anybody. Accidents happen. Improbable events occur. Black swan events will come out of nowhere. Given time and repetition things can and do, go wrong in dangerous situations. It happened when I was in the Marines and it happens in many other organizations.

Just my humble opinion.

Addendum:
A movie comes to mind that I saw as a kid, called Fate is the Hunter. That movie has always stuck in my mind especially when I was in the Corps working on aircraft.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 12 Dec 2013 12:35

Received by email



LOOK BEYOND SINDHURAKSHAK :

The nation has to brace itself for the challenge

Admiral SUSHIL KUMAR

Did the Raksha Mantri even realise his faux pas , when he rebuked the Indian Navy for the loss of the submarine , INS Sindhurakshak ?

With all on board killed in a flash and the submarine destroyed and sunk ; it will be a long time before the technical Board of Inquiry is able to establish , what happened to INS Sindhurakshak.

When nothing is known,is it not strange that the Ministry of Defence has jumped to its own conclusions ?

The navy top brass had every reason to be riled when A K Antony proclaimed at the recent annual Commanders Conference , that the Indian Navy had frittered away national resources .

To the navy , still recovering from the tragic loss of Sindhurakshak , the unjust remark of the Raksha Mantri , has not gone down well , with the rank and file of the armed forces .

Perhaps it may not have dawned on the Raksha Mantri that his statement may have had a devastating effect on the morale of the navy and in particular its submarine arm. The R M ought to feel the pulse of his armed forces, for they are his command responsibility . And for all intents and purposes, they are also his real constituency .

This is the surest way to demotivate the nation’s front line security forces and deepen the divide in civil - military relations .

It is difficult to believe that the R M would have had the time or inclination to pen down his own speech to be formally delivered to the commanders in chiefs of the armed forces . All in all it is a distressing thought , that raises an important question : has the Raksha Mantri come to rely more on the scribes in his office , than military professionals at the scene of action ?

To clear the yardarm is an old navy expression that is synonymous with washing one’s hands off a responsibility . It came into being in the days of sail , when Britannia ruled the waves and Lordships of the Admiralty perched ashore , found it expedient to pass the buck.

So why would A K Antony clear his yardarm when Sindhurakshak and the IndianNavy are squarely the responsibility of the country’s defence minister ? Does not the buck stop with him ?

It has a lot to do with the long outstanding need to integrate the armed forces into the Ministry of Defence . Obviously little has happened . And since the old order has not changed , it is still the old mindset : we and they .

Calling itself the Integrated Headquarters of the MOD may sound impressive but inducing systemic changes , requires much more than a cosmetic change of nomenclature . What is really needed is a change of attitude , along with a deep understanding of military ethos .

The fighting spirit of the armed forces rides on morale . And to weld together a professionally trained and highly motivated fighting force capable of defending the nation requires astute statesmanship . It is one thing to administer a civilian Public Sector Undertaking such as the DRDO and quite another matter to handle the armed forces of the nation .

The political leadership would do well to take a leaf out of the Kargil Report . It carries a doctrinal message on how the armed forces should be motivated and galvanised into action , when the chips are down .

The need to induct the military into the national security loop was an important lesson from the Kargil conflict . It prompted the weekly meeting of the prime minister with the chiefs of the army , navy and air force . The prime minister’s aim was simply to understand his armed forces , since they are the primary instrument of state power . But it was too good to last forever and when the National Security Council came of
age , the prime minister’s initiative fell by the wayside .

It has never been easy to understand the operational environment of the navy and the risks that go with it . And many are the accounts of the life and hazards aboard a submarine . But it was our late prime minister Rajiv Gandhi who placed it in perspective . Recording his experience underwater , while embarked on our nuclear submarine INS Chakra in 1988 , these were the words of our late prime minister : " thank God I was a pilot ; not a submariner ".

Submariners are required to operate in the domain of danger where fire and
flooding remain their greatest threat .

Since the year 2000 , there have been 27 major submarine incidents , that include : 10 American, 6 Russian, 5 British , 2 Canadian , 1 Australian , 1 Chinese, 1 French and 1 Indian ( Sindhurakshak ) .

Moreover , being the most potent weapon of war , submarines are among the most complex war fighting machines ever developed . The experience of the Indian Navy goes back to the 1960’s and having operated submarines in diverse combat conditions for more than half a century , the Indian Navy is well geared to face the challenge that it offers .

The Russian navy went through a traumatic period after its nuclear submarine Kursk , was destroyed in an underwater explosion . But the Russians came through the crisis .

And so will the Indian Navy come to grips with the loss of INS Sindhurakshak .

Professional navies know how to ride the storm .
It is the officials ashore , who need to brace themselves for the challenge .

[ The writer was the navy chief during the Kargil conflict ]

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12714
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Dec 2013 15:59

there was also a british incident where a sailor shot and killed an officer on board a sub (whilst at dock) in the recent past

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby chetak » 12 Dec 2013 17:14

Torching of nuke sub costs $400 million; Navy's budget struggles for air
(CNN) -- Casey James Fury simply didn't want to be at work, and in the process cost the Navy nearly a half-billion dollars and one attack submarine.
Fury admitted to setting fire to the USS Miami, a nuclear sub, in May 2012 while it was in dry dock. He was sentenced to 17 years in federal prison in March and ordered to pay $400 million in restitution -- roughly the cost of the damage.
The Navy won't see anything close to that amount from Fury, of course, but neither will it from Uncle Sam.
On Tuesday, the Navy announced that despite the demand for attack submarines being "as strong as ever," the Miami is being inactivated. The reason: Under sequestration, the federal government's forced budget cuts, the Navy simply can't afford to make the repairs.
"The type of damage was unlike anything we'd seen in recent memory," Rear Admiral Richard Breckenridge, director of undersea warfare, said on a Navy Live blog post. "The anticipated scope of work is four times greater than any previous submarine repair due to damage," the post continued.


Massive fire on nuclear sub


Breckenridge blamed across-board budget cuts, saying, "Sequestration pressures remove the needed foundation of stability to support an endeavor of this magnitude."
Fury was working inside the Miami on May 23 as a painter and sandblaster while the Los Angeles-class attack submarine was at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Maine undergoing a massive overhaul.
Initial investigations by the Navy found that the fire may have been started by a vacuum cleaner. But a federal criminal complaint said Fury admitted to setting fire to a pile of rags near a vacuum cleaner in a stateroom in the submarine.
Seven people were injured in the blaze, including three shipyard firefighters. The sub's reactor was not operating when the fire broke out and remained unaffected and stable throughout, Capt. Bryant Fuller, commander for the shipyard, said at the time.
Fury also admitted to starting a second fire at the dry dock three weeks later, according to federal court documents. The second fire was started in an area underneath the submarine where Fury was working. In both cases, he told investigators that he started the fires because he was having extreme anxiety and was trying to get out of work, according to federal documents.
U.S. Sens. Susan Collins and Angus King of Maine, and Jeanne Shaheen and Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire, expressed their disappointment at the announcement, saying in a statement that inactivating the Miami, "will mean a loss to our nuclear submarine fleet -- yet another unfortunate consequence of the across-the-board cuts known as sequestration. We will continue to work together to find a responsible budget solution that replaces sequestration."
The Miami was commissioned in 1990 and was one of 42 Los Angeles-class subs in the U.S. fleet. It carried a crew of 12 officers and 98 enlisted personnel, according to the Navy, and was capable of carrying Tomahawk cruise missiles and Mark 48 torpedoes. No weapons were on board at the time of either fire, according to the Navy.
This is the second warship the Navy has lost this year. The USS Guardian, a minesweeper, ran aground on the Tubbataha Reef in the Philippines in January, damaging an estimated 43,000 square feet of the UNESCO World Heritage site. To prevent further damage to the reef, salvagers had to cut it into pieces to lift off. It was struck from the fleet in February.
=======================================================

nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2021
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby nirav » 12 Dec 2013 20:38

Disgusting, Shri Saints "frittering away resources" remark.

Who needs an enemy when your own "Raksha mantri" himself does the needful damage, be it messed up procurement or busting morale of the forces.

All for keeping his whites clean, services be damned.

Not only should these self serving goons be voted out of power, they should be tried for treason !

Sorry for the rant guys, I just had to. :evil:

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 12 Dec 2013 21:39

+ 1

What does clean mean anyway? If he is not doing his dharma and job as Raksha Mantri he is not clean in my book. We should stop referring to him as saint. He is uncaring, inactive and indecisive.

venkat_r
BRFite
Posts: 263
Joined: 20 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby venkat_r » 12 Dec 2013 21:53

Yeah, now a days you do not know whom they are adressing and what message they intend to convey.

He can admonish the Navy for sinking it and vow to never let it happen again -- after all he is the boss.

But Navy would have been already demoralized, which needs support in this time and determined now: but election times and clarity less leaders will always give out such statements without being balanced.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2013 22:26

On Nov 21 I said:

Wonder if its the babus admonishing the Navy for the loss via AKAji? He wouldnt know what to talk.



viewtopic.php?p=1544900#p1544900

So AKAji let down the service.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12714
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Dec 2013 23:16

bit of an aside, but a snapshot of life in a submarine in the 1960's

Life on HMS Ocelot in the 1960'a

quite interesting

VijayN
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 11 Sep 2009 10:46
Location: Pretzel Land

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby VijayN » 18 Dec 2013 09:40

Found this nice video on the lift system used to bring up K-129 Nuke sub. Perhaps, a system on these lines will be used to bring up the Sindu?


ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49796
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2014 04:44

pankajs wrote:INS Sindhurakshak likely to be moved out of water in 4 months
More than six months after its submarine sank in the Mumbai harbour, the Navy on Tuesday said it was close to finalise a contract to salvage the vessel which was expected to be moved out of water in another four months.

..
The foreign vendor has sought 45 days to bring his heavy instruments to the accident site and another three months for salvaging the vessel and putting it in a dry-dock, they said.
Soon after the mishap, the Navy chief had stated that the inquiry would be completed in four weeks but later it was realised that it would not be possible to do so without bringing it out of water.

After the mishap, the Navy is now going for upgrading the capabilities of its four Russian-origin Kilo class vessels and two HDW submarines. They said the sinking of the Sindhurakshak has not resulted in putting extra burden on the remaining vessels.

The force was also close to finalising the contract for procuring deep sea rescue vessels, which will be useful in rescuing submariners in case of a mishap in deep sea to evacuate them. A submarine will be showcased in the Navy tableau at this year's Republic Day parade.

rajatmisra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 05 Feb 2010 10:16

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby rajatmisra » 23 Jan 2014 23:19

In the 4 months that have passed we could have easily dammed and dewatered the area to reach the sub. Big difference is that the sub is lying IN THE HARBOUR in very shallow water. I am sure there could have been reasons, but can anyone elaborate on why a simple solution is not being examined? Cost of a civil construction wall abutting the jetty will be peanuts. Is the navy in love with complex solutions?

rajatmisra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 05 Feb 2010 10:16

Re: INS Sindurakshak Sinks after explosion in Mumbai Naval D

Postby rajatmisra » 03 May 2014 05:30

Any updates?


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests