Artillery: News & Discussion

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 23 Jan 2014 13:42

As per the MoU of Army with OFH, After 155mm Dhanush clears all trials in a couple of years then only 144 howitzers will be produced and that also over a long period of 5-7 years. IIRC production schedule was :-

6 in first year, 12 in second, 24 in third year, 36 in fourth year and in subsequent years.
Last edited by vic on 23 Jan 2014 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2014 14:03

why do we have to wait for summer and winter to conduct trials? why cant a house be built that can simulate any temperature, rain , humidity, dust, vibration, salt just like we build wind tunnels. soak the weapon in it for 48 , 96 hrs or whatever is needed and then directly pull it out and test it on the range outside. or keep it inside, poke the barrel out of a hole and start firing.

we tend to waste 12 months moving from one summer trial to another!

partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4005
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby partha » 23 Jan 2014 14:51

Singhaji,

I had the exact same thought. I wonder why they don't simulate different weather conditions. There are already systems available to do that. A simple Google search led me to an US military artillery test procedure doc -

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a548180.pdf

c. Simulated climatic environmental tests are included (not environmental test at climatic
tests sites).


Also check "FACILITIES AND INSTRUMENTATION" section. I think a temperature chamber is neither rocket science nor a sensitive product whose export is regulated. We can just buy them on the open market.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2014 15:02

yes and I am sure agencies like CABS, HAL, NAL, LRDE and ISRO already have such facilities for decades now. they need to - for product testing.

all these winter/summer tests are just bahanas to push back domestic prospects and create a situation where the next round of foreign deals can happen. for the price of 10 imported howitzers they could probably get a couple of swanky testbeds COTS.

ofcourse real field tests are also done, but only after it has cleared all simulated tests.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7732
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 23 Jan 2014 15:51

^^^Then why did they take Tejas and MMRCA candidates to Jaisalmer/Leh/Goa if you can test everything about a weapon system in simulated environment?

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sagar G » 23 Jan 2014 21:02

Singha saar no human made test chamber or any soppah doopah computer can exactly simulate all the conditions that mother nature has to offer and I am not even considering the surprises.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 995
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sivab » 24 Jan 2014 01:15

http://idrw.org/?p=32450

The Indian Army will soon be adding the 155 mm gun Dhanush to its range of guns which have been proving their prowess and deadly firepower in various battlefields.

The Indian army, which already has the 155 mm Bofors gun, will induct Dhanush, which would add even more might to the regiment of artillery, said army officials at the Exercise Mahasangram, which was conducted in the firing ranges of the School of Artillery at Deolali on Tuesday.

Army officials said that while the Bofors has a rate of fire of three rounds per 14 seconds, the indigenous Dhanush could fire eight rounds per minute. Dhanush, which in the trial stage, would soon be inducted, said the army officers.

Apart from that, Swathi, an upgraded weapon locating radar (WLR) and Kshitiz, equipment for obeservation, would also be inducted in the plethora of the new generation surveillance and target acquisition equipment, the army officers added.

Both Swathi and Kshitiz are indigenously made. While the former is an upgraded version of the US-made WPL ANTPQ-37, the latter will be an upgraded version of the Israel-made long-range reconnaissance and observation system (LORROS).

The gunners of the Indian artillery displayed their skills at Exercise Mahasangram, conducted by the officers undergoing the prestigious long gunnery staff course, through a tactical situation requiring appreciation of the operations and preparation of an artillery fire plan in support of the operation.

The entire range of guns from the indigenous 120 mm mortars, 105 mm Indian field gun, 105 mm light field gun, 130 mm medium fun to the state of the art 155 mm FH 77B Bofors, 122 mm multi-barrel rocket launcher grad BM 21 and the 300 mm Smerch multi-barrel rocket launcher demonstrated their destructive power during the exercise.

An array of new generation surveillance and target acquisition equipment like the unmanned aerial vehicles, surveillance sensors and weapon locating radars were also put on display.

Officials said that besides being the eyes of the commanders, these devises, when used in conjunction with guns, were capable of augmenting the effect of fire power, thereby acting as force multipliers.

The Cheetah and Chetak helicopters flown by the army aviators demonstrated flying skills of pilots, as they flew just a few feet above the ground, merging with trees and shrubs, concealing their movement, in what is called the nap of Earth, flying to engage enemy tanks and other targets. They also airlifted a 120-mm mortar for delivering firepower resources in inaccessible areas, as part of the exercise.

The event was witnessed by visiting officers of the Defence Services Staff College, Wellington and the Military Institute of Technology, Pune. A foreign defence delegation from Nepal also observed the event. Lt General A K Misra, AVSM, Commandant, School of Artillery, who was present at the event, interacted with various participants and delegations.

A large number of school children and NCC cadets from nearby schools were invited for the event to give them a glimpse of the might of the Indian Army and the artillery.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54682
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Jan 2014 02:04

Army officials said that while the Bofors has a rate of fire of three rounds per 14 seconds, the indigenous Dhanush could fire eight rounds per minute. ...


Am I missing some thing?
3 rounds in 14 secs for Bofors translates to ~ 12/minute

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8186
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 24 Jan 2014 02:34

AFAIK that 3 rounds in 14 seconds is like the burst mode. Almost all artillery guns have that. It cannot be maintained over a duration of one minute (the Bofors guns that India has can fire 10 rounds per minute).

FH-77 mounted on the Archer artillery system has a continuous fire rate of 75 rounds per hour, an intensive fire rate of 20 rounds (i.e., a full magazine) in 2.5 minutes (effective rate, 480 per hour), and a salvo fire rate of three rounds in 15 seconds (effective rate, 720 per hour).

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 995
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sivab » 24 Jan 2014 04:45

That is DDM comparing burst fire rate with sustained fire rate. That is why I didn't highlight it.

partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4005
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby partha » 24 Jan 2014 05:19

rohitvats wrote:^^^Then why did they take Tejas and MMRCA candidates to Jaisalmer/Leh/Goa if you can test everything about a weapon system in simulated environment?

Rohitji, obviously they can't be tested in a simulated environment. Also simulation does not mean computer simulation. Something like a temperature chamber that document talks about where artillery can be housed and fired. It leads to faster iterations and testing in actual geo location can happen after several iterations when it is almost certain that there won't be another iteration.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Victor » 24 Jan 2014 06:37

Singha wrote:all these winter/summer tests are just bahanas...

Very plausible. It would seem that the winter/summer tests could be conducted simultaneously at any time if we really wanted. India's geography includes enough variation to cover all "seasons" at any time regardless of the month. It's freezing cold high in the Himalayas when people are sweating in ganjees elsewhere. In the Northeast, we can achieve summer and winter within 150 miles with autumn and spring thrown in for free.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Victor » 24 Jan 2014 06:49

NEW DELHI (PTI): To enhance Indian Army's firepower, the government has approved a Rs 1,500 crore proposal for production of more than 2,000 rockets for the Pinaka multi- barrel weapons system.
The Army requires more than 2,000 of these rockets to equip its 10-12 regiments comprising the Pinaka launchers.

2,000 rockets? Wow, we are business!

This means 28 batteries of 6 launchers each will fire off the entire inventory of rockets in 40 seconds.

Hopefully "more than 2,000" means 20,000 and not 2,500. :evil:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 24 Jan 2014 07:08

well sire, the mere sight of these magnificently kitted war elephants in battle formation is supposed to make the enemy lose his nerve and abandon the field. bollywood set creators can build a phalanx of dummies to be picked up by enemy IMINT.
victory of atmospherics as MMS likes to say sometimes.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 24 Jan 2014 07:52

Victor wrote:
Singha wrote:all these winter/summer tests are just bahanas...

Very plausible. It would seem that the winter/summer tests could be conducted simultaneously at any time if we really wanted. India's geography includes enough variation to cover all "seasons" at any time regardless of the month. It's freezing cold high in the Himalayas when people are sweating in ganjees elsewhere. In the Northeast, we can achieve summer and winter within 150 miles with autumn and spring thrown in for free.

Can't say that Victor saab and Singha saab. Winter in Siachen and summer in Thar are not same as Summer in Siachen and winter in Thar. I am not sure if this can be replicated and I see this as a necessity to tweak systems before signoff.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Jan 2014 21:39

NEW DELHI (PTI): To enhance Indian Army's firepower, the government has approved a Rs 1,500 crore proposal for production of more than 2,000 rockets for the Pinaka multi- barrel weapons system.
The Army requires more than 2,000 of these rockets to equip its 10-12 regiments comprising the Pinaka launchers.

Wow 10-12 REGIMENTs... if this were true, we have been quietly inducting Pinaka launchers and forming regiments.. In the last couple of years I have not heard of any new Pinaka regiment being formed apart from the first couple which were formed. This new has always had a foot-note about the intent to add one Pinaka Regiment each year...
Rohit, can you confirm if this 10-12 Regiments news is indeed true..

If so, we have atleast 1 Pinaka regiment to each of our Arty divisions and couple of batteries for each (I) arty brigades etc.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 25 Jan 2014 05:07

Victor wrote:
NEW DELHI (PTI): To enhance Indian Army's firepower, the government has approved a Rs 1,500 crore proposal for production of more than 2,000 rockets for the Pinaka multi- barrel weapons system.
The Army requires more than 2,000 of these rockets to equip its 10-12 regiments comprising the Pinaka launchers.

2,000 rockets? Wow, we are business!

This means 28 batteries of 6 launchers each will fire off the entire inventory of rockets in 40 seconds.

Hopefully "more than 2,000" means 20,000 and not 2,500. :evil:


It is 2,000 rockets per year production capacity. Currently, it is around 1,000 rockets/year.

As for 10-12 regiments, that sounds more like planned Pinaka regiments total. From news reports, I think only around 2 to 4 regiments have been raised so far.


Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 28 Jan 2014 01:55

srai wrote: As for 10-12 regiments, that sounds more like planned Pinaka regiments total. From news reports, I think only around 2 to 4 regiments have been raised so far.
Agree. I too think 10-12 regiments is more aspirational rather than real. Let us wait for ORBAT Gurus to weigh in.

According to MOD's Annual report 2013, "Manufacture of 40 Launchers, 16 Battery command Posts, 40 Loader bum Replenishment vehicles and 20 Replenishment vehicles have been completed and handed over to the Army".

So we can assume TWO more regiments getting inducted or have been inducted (Each regiment has THREE Batteries of Six launchers each with one Command post for each battery and two for each regiment). Hopefully induction speed with pick-up in 2014.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 28 Jan 2014 02:04

duplicate post... Deleted.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 28 Jan 2014 19:53

The List of our Artillery programmes at present:-

Order for additional 105mm LFGs for Mountain Regiments
OFB developing upgrade of 130mm gun to 155mm gun
OFB developing upgrade of Bofors 155mm howitzer
OFB developing Dhanush 155mm Howitzer in 39 Caliber and 45 Caliber based on Bofors
DRDO Developing 155mm/52 Howitzer with use of Titanium Components to reduce weight
OFB upgrade of 130mm Catapult with Arjun Chassis
Pinaka-1 and Pinaka-2 unguided rockets
Prahaar 300mm guided Rockets
Prithvi and Brahmos series
Nirbhay being developed in Land Launched variants
Smerch and upgraded Grad rocket production at OFB

Offers

Pvt Sector wheeled 155mm/52Caliber Howitzer
OFB 105mm mounted on BMP
OFB 105mm mounted on 8x8
BAE 155mm/39 Caliber ULH

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19658
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 28 Jan 2014 22:09



414 units (total planned) is a respectable amount and much better than the 144 currently placed.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 28 Jan 2014 22:34


Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2014 03:39

vic wrote:http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=95272

# of guns per year stands at 18, 36 and 60 over three years... that is pretty respectable... Hope IA places a larger order of the 155mm 45 cal beast pretty soon.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54682
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Jan 2014 03:42

Those numbers are to set up the production line and iron out rate tooling issues.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4701
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Jan 2014 07:09

So now Pinaak is being mounted on some other truck than Tatra, or still the Tatras stay?

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 29 Jan 2014 07:57

The problem is that production can only start after Dhanush clears ALL tests, which as our experience shows is impossible with the army. Then after all tests are cleared why only 144 and not 1600 towed artillery howitzers? Me suggests, that 144 should be considered as LSP and production should be started forthwith immediately due to urgent needs. Even to produce 144 howitzers it would take 3 years, which would be adequate time to complete the tests and iron out most of deficiencies for next batch say of 300 howitzers. Present conduct of Army is prime example of delaying even super urgent requirement as it is indigenous product, giving piecemeal orders preventing adequate investment to ramp up production and increase indigenous content by setting by chain of downstream vendors.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7732
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2014 09:25

I had managed to track down 2 x Pinaka Regiments which were inducted in the army with possibly third under raising. But there has been no news of date.

As for the artillery procurement, my assumption is that IA will go for interim induction of 155/45 mm (and Catapult 130mm) guns till the time DRDO 155/52 caliber comes on line. The production timeline of 155/45 seems to be timed with development timeline of DRDO guns. If the DRDO project gets stretched, then we may see increase in order of 155/45 gun.

Coming to larger order for 155/45 guns - well, that is the call IA and MOD needs to take. There are two routes which can be taken:

(1) We order larger quantity of 155/45 guns and induction of 155/45 guns follows in parallel with induction of 155/52 guns. We need to be ready for the fact that 155/52 may take time and during this period the older 130mm guns get replaced by 155/42 guns. As and when 155/52 comes online, it also starts replacing 130mm guns and in due course of time it starts replacing the older 155/45 guns. The diagram below is a crude attempt to show how this may play out -

155/45<---replaces 130mm guns--------------------------------->
155/52 <starts replacing 130mm guns----------------------><starts replacing older 155/45 guns------------>

But this is going to be an expensive route and I'm not sure churning in such a relatively short time frame will be accommodated

(2) Induct 155/45 guns in limited quantity and use this as an opportunity to iron out manufacturing process and place the final and larger order for 155/52 guns. This is going to happen if the IA is OK with soldiering on with 130mm guns or their upgraded versions of 155/39 caliber in the development and production period required for 155/52 gun.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2014 10:00

rohitvats wrote:I had managed to track down 2 x Pinaka Regiments which were inducted in the army with possibly third under raising. But there has been no news of date.
Thanks Rohit... same here... The Two Regiments which I have tracked down are as follows
1) 121 Rocket Regiment (source BR page of Pinaka)
2) 1880 Rocket Regiment (Pinaka) (source Livefist article with excellent pictures)

the widely spaced out numbering is confusing.

Interestingly SP Land forces talks about FOUR Pinaka Regiments as of March 2013, this information is newer than the other two sources and SP is decently well connected for these sort of information. As most sources mentioning the existence of two regiments also talk about Two are being raised, I think these have been done sometime in FY-13 as mentioned by SP Land Forces.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4484
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby putnanja » 29 Jan 2014 10:32

rohitvats wrote:I had managed to track down 2 x Pinaka Regiments which were inducted in the army with possibly third under raising. But there has been no news of date.

As for the artillery procurement, my assumption is that IA will go for interim induction of 155/45 mm (and Catapult 130mm) guns till the time DRDO 155/52 caliber comes on line. The production timeline of 155/45 seems to be timed with development timeline of DRDO guns. If the DRDO project gets stretched, then we may see increase in order of 155/45 gun.

Coming to larger order for 155/45 guns - well, that is the call IA and MOD needs to take. There are two routes which can be taken:

(1) We order larger quantity of 155/45 guns and induction of 155/45 guns follows in parallel with induction of 155/52 guns. We need to be ready for the fact that 155/52 may take time and during this period the older 130mm guns get replaced by 155/42 guns. As and when 155/52 comes online, it also starts replacing 130mm guns and in due course of time it starts replacing the older 155/45 guns. The diagram below is a crude attempt to show how this may play out -

155/45<---replaces 130mm guns--------------------------------->
155/52 <starts replacing 130mm guns----------------------><starts replacing older 155/45 guns------------>

But this is going to be an expensive route and I'm not sure churning in such a relatively short time frame will be accommodated

(2) Induct 155/45 guns in limited quantity and use this as an opportunity to iron out manufacturing process and place the final and larger order for 155/52 guns. This is going to happen if the IA is OK with soldiering on with 130mm guns or their upgraded versions of 155/39 caliber in the development and production period required for 155/52 gun.


Rohit, any idea if the 155/45 caliber can be upgraded to 155/52 later on? If so, that can push #1 above.

Also, as per the original Bofors contract, we were supposed to manufacture close to 1000 more guns, which never happened. I don't know if we imported close to 1000 130mm guns from Russia or not. My point is, there is a severe shortage of guns. So if we go full speed and start inducting the 155/45mm today while the 155/52mm gets fully ready, we still wouldn't have replaced all the 130mm in 3-5 years. If we look at the link above, 114 guns will take 3 years to be produced. If we assume the 155/52mm will be ready in say 5 years, we would still have produced only around 250 155/45mm guns, hardly sufficient to be 1:1 replacement for 130mm by that time. And once we start producing 155/52mm guns, by the time we can produce anywhere close to 1000 guns, it will be 10 years, by which time the 155/45 will be 10-12 year old. It can then be upgraded or replaced depending on how far ahead technology has progressed.

I am all for going in for the 1st option of inducting 155/45mm. Also, if the 155/45mm passes muster, it would make sense to have the Arjun based "catapults" be 155/45 instead of 130mm.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7732
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2014 10:43

Shrinivasan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I had managed to track down 2 x Pinaka Regiments which were inducted in the army with possibly third under raising. But there has been no news of date.
Thanks Rohit... same here... The Two Regiments which I have tracked down are as follows
1) 121 Rocket Regiment (source BR page of Pinaka)
2) 1880 Rocket Regiment (Pinaka) (source Livefist article with excellent pictures)

the widely spaced out numbering is confusing.

Interestingly SP Land forces talks about FOUR Pinaka Regiments as of March 2013, this information is newer than the other two sources and SP is decently well connected for these sort of information. As most sources mentioning the existence of two regiments also talk about Two are being raised, I think these have been done sometime in FY-13 as mentioned by SP Land Forces.


I don't think there is 121 Rocket Regiment; BM-21 equipped regiments that I'm aware are 111, 210, 212, 213 and 214 Rocket Regiments.

1880 and 1890 Rocket Regiments were the first two equipped with Pinaka - both have featured in R-Day parade since. SP Land forces may well be right about 4 x Pinaka regiments - I've not updated my research for sometime now.

IA seems to be using 18XX series for Pinaka and Smerch Regiments - though, IA being IA, one of the three Smerch Regiments is 551 Rocket Regiment (Smerch).

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7732
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2014 16:08

putnanja wrote: Rohit, any idea if the 155/45 caliber can be upgraded to 155/52 later on? If so, that can push #1 above.


Sir, I have no idea on this aspect. However, upgrading 130mm to 155/39 caliber in case of our M-46 is a case of substantive caliber change. But whether such an upgrade (if possible) meets the performance of true-blue 155/52 needs to be determined.

Also, as per the original Bofors contract, we were supposed to manufacture close to 1000 more guns, which never happened. I don't know if we imported close to 1000 130mm guns from Russia or not. My point is, there is a severe shortage of guns.


India did import substantial amount of M-46 guns post dissolution of USSR and at throwaway prices. IMO, this is one reason that more artillery regiments today with infantry divisions are equipped with M-46 and not 105mm IFG. I think the ratio of Medium to Field Regiments has moved from literally from 1:3 to almost 1:1.

Secondly, I don't think we have shortage of guns; rather we have shortage of higher caliber guns of 155 mm variety.


So if we go full speed and start inducting the 155/45mm today while the 155/52mm gets fully ready, we still wouldn't have replaced all the 130mm in 3-5 years. If we look at the link above, 114 guns will take 3 years to be produced. If we assume the 155/52mm will be ready in say 5 years, we would still have produced only around 250 155/45mm guns, hardly sufficient to be 1:1 replacement for 130mm by that time. And once we start producing 155/52mm guns, by the time we can produce anywhere close to 1000 guns, it will be 10 years, by which time the 155/45 will be 10-12 year old. It can then be upgraded or replaced depending on how far ahead technology has progressed.


I think the production rate of 155/45 has been kept low and in case a decision on the lines suggested by you is taken, it can be increased. I've suggested something on similar lines - however, it will be an expensive exercise. Replacing guns which are only 10 years old might not be an economical. But we can manage to upgrade 45 Caliber to 52 Caliber then we can save a lot on cost - a marginal decrease in performance as against true-blue 155/52 cal gun should not be a concern.

I am all for going in for the 1st option of inducting 155/45mm. Also, if the 155/45mm passes muster, it would make sense to have the Arjun based "catapults" be 155/45 instead of 130mm.


Honestly, 130mm Catapult or even Catapult is not a very bright idea - the solution exists in the form of Bhim SP gun and all it requires is someone with b@lls to get the job done.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8266
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 29 Jan 2014 16:33

WRT, the the point regarding the shortage of guns in the Army. The wiki page on is lists approx 13000 guns as the inventory of the Army. Whereas most other sources list approc 4000 pieces. What could be the reason for this difference.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7732
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2014 16:46

^^^The actual number would consist of holdings with the formations/units and reserve guns. We can work out some ball park number as far as operational assets is concerned but reserve number is a mystery.

nelson
BRFite
Posts: 988
Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nelson » 29 Jan 2014 17:43

The truth may be somewhere in between. The 300 regiments with 18 guns apiece, it would be 5400 plus reserve ( 25 to 33%), assuming all light regiments have converted or will be converted.

The larger number of guns, 13000 can be reported only when the 81 mm Infantry Mortars are considered as artillery pieces.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 29 Jan 2014 21:45

155/52 is completely new Titanum Aluminium alloy howitzer and my guess is that it will take at least another ten years to enter BULK production.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3435
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 29 Jan 2014 22:46

Some years back L&T had displayed a naval MRLS. Whatever happened to that programme?

vic wrote:The List of our Artillery programmes at present:-

Order for additional 105mm LFGs for Mountain Regiments
OFB developing upgrade of 130mm gun to 155mm gun
OFB developing upgrade of Bofors 155mm howitzer
OFB developing Dhanush 155mm Howitzer in 39 Caliber and 45 Caliber based on Bofors
DRDO Developing 155mm/52 Howitzer with use of Titanium Components to reduce weight
OFB upgrade of 130mm Catapult with Arjun Chassis
Pinaka-1 and Pinaka-2 unguided rockets
Prahaar 300mm guided Rockets
Prithvi and Brahmos series
Nirbhay being developed in Land Launched variants
Smerch and upgraded Grad rocket production at OFB

Offers

Pvt Sector wheeled 155mm/52Caliber Howitzer
OFB 105mm mounted on BMP
OFB 105mm mounted on 8x8
BAE 155mm/39 Caliber ULH

Rupak
Webmaster BR
Posts: 322
Joined: 14 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rupak » 29 Jan 2014 23:53

@Aditya_G
The system you are thinking of is called the WM-18. This L&T launcher is carried on the Shardul Class LST.

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 30 Jan 2014 12:36

Couple of things, It is clear that the Bofors design remains extremely relevant even today. The Indian Army would clearly love to have more Bofors and be done with it. If we have to go down the same route with OFB like a fumbling ape that the organisation has demonstrated itself to be, why cannot the MoD take the JV route and have BAE-Mahindra Systems manufacture the FH-77 B05 L52. BAE did come up with an interesting proposal.

For BAE Systems, the decision not to bid was a difficult one. It had set up a JV with MDS --- with BAE Systems holding a 26% stake, the maximum permissible --- primarily to build artillery systems in India. Last year the JV had written to the MoD offering a sweetener: if it won artillery deals like the Bofors upgrade, it would give the influential Indian defence production establishment a share of the work.

The OFB would be given the work of manufacturing the gun barrels; public sector Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) could make the sighting systems; while the gun trails and gun carriages (on which the guns rest, fire and move) would be built in the new BAE-MDS factory in Faridabad.


Multiple projects, with 39Cal, 45 cal and a ghost 52 calibre are a waste of national resources and capacities. If the Indian Army is convinced that 52 calibre only provides incremental additional capabilities, then select the OFB 45 calibre variant and get on with it and end this tamasha.

If the Indian Army would like to have only a 52 Calibre variant then the above Mahindra option can enacted. Incidentally, the Indian Army base requirement for the 52 calibre variant during trials was to demonstrate a capability to fire 75 rounds/Hour. The Bofors improved 52 Calibre version fired off 78 rounds in 24 mins!!

Range for Bofors 52 Calibre
High Explosive Base Bleed-40Kms
High Explosive Extended Range-43Kms
Bonus AT Round-35Kms
Excalibur GPS Round-<60Kms

Bofors & Munitions Brochure Page 14-20

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 30 Jan 2014 12:51

130mm Chassis was always meant to be used both with 130mm and 152mm/52 Caliber, so it is easily usable with 155/45 and perhaps also with 155/52


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests