Artillery: News & Discussion

abhik
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 12 Jun 2014 17:16

indranilroy wrote:Aren't we jumping the gun here? (no pun intended)

This gun did not exist 2 years back! It has not yet completed trials, and it has orders. A bigger order awaits the moment the trials end. What more are you guys asking for?

OFB did not pull this out of its a$$ in the last two years. Its the result of nearly a decade of work(at least).

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 12 Jun 2014 17:39

abhik wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Aren't we jumping the gun here? (no pun intended)

This gun did not exist 2 years back! It has not yet completed trials, and it has orders. A bigger order awaits the moment the trials end. What more are you guys asking for?

OFB did not pull this out of its a$$ in the last two years. Its the result of nearly a decade of work(at least).


Absolutely right Abhik. In fact there is a date that we can go back to. Defexpo 2004. This gun, along with an upgraded version of the M46 gun, with the same 155 mm 45 cal barrel, were both displayed by OFB. I have already posted pictures of both from DefExpo 2004 in this thread a few months back.

It took IA 8 years after that, to agree to start testing this gun and now place an order for 20 guns.

Well I would say let bygones be bygones, as we say in Hindi "der aaye durust aye".

I only hope that they increase the order to atleast 400 odd guns, along with an order for upgrade on the remaining 420 M46 guns. (The original plan was to upgrade 600 guns. Both OFB and soltam offered the solution. soltam was chosen and upgraded 180 guns, before it got blacklisted.).

Gun Carriage Factory should also be asked to take over Jabalpur Vehicles factory and re-tool to help expedite the production of these guns.
The above order quantum, if placed, will probably keep the OFB busy was about 10 years.

The balance requirement for 800 odd guns of the towed variety can come from Kalyani Forge - bharat-52 gun.
Last edited by mody on 12 Jun 2014 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 12 Jun 2014 17:53

The Howitzer had already fired 450 rounds in tests even when VK Singh was Chief,

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 12 Jun 2014 18:48

we need to give a chance for kalyani to make money and become sustainable as well. plus we need 52cal also. if it passes trials surely 800-1000 can be procured instead of wasting our precious money on some uber-tfta iphone20 aka archer. we will get murdered on the cost of special spare parts alone. the swedes will be sure to keep the most costly precious spares to their own suppliers just like russia and france do to extract $$ over entire lifecycle. ofcourse Unkil is the master of that with black boxes and dont open seals, plus with UT and GE aero engines they have everyone's balls in a tight grip.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 12 Jun 2014 19:57

Regarding the Vidwanshak AMR, looks like it has finally seen the light of the day and been inducted into IA, though in "limited service" .....

The AMR in IA use was first seen in DFI forums - the pic of the Jat regiment solider......however no other confirmation seen.

IA lower ranks were happy with the effectiveness of Denel NTW 20 on the LOC, and this had a weight of 31 kg.

However, IA not happy with Vidwanshak, and cite weight issues, though the weight is 26 kg.

Its not as straightforward as one thinks, maybe our desi AMR is crude and not as effective, development work may still be pending to refine the system to acceptable (Denel like) levels....... it may be something about Center of Gravity, aesthetics, ergonomics, recoil damping, noise, barrel heating, servicing and maintenance, etc.

I wish Navy Marcos start buying it, that will start the "Quality Improvement Programme"..

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pushkar.bhat » 12 Jun 2014 21:21

uddu wrote:Has the trials started? this is the hottest climate one will get. Pretty soon there is going to be rains.


Last few days delhi was so hot they could have done summer trials right outside south block.. :rotfl: :eek: :lol:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 16 Jun 2014 18:01

Reading up Army report to Modi makes one really feel that Indian Army is a fascinating beast.

They claim of malnutrition (no ammunition, no artillery guns), even when a plate full of desi goodies (desi-bofors, Kalyani) is in front for ages.

Not willing to touch desi food because need foreign beer (MH777, Denel, Fenel and other crap) before food.

Seem to be utterly spoilt creature!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 16 Jun 2014 23:35

I think Army gave super duper massive order of ten Vidhwansak and BSF around 100

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 16 Jun 2014 23:45

Old style thinking and procurement corruption are responsible. Personally, if any corruption was found with the T-90, I would stick all those involved in a few Tin-Cans and let a few Arjuns conduct a few target practice runs with sabot rounds. After all, they have the audacity to play with soldiers lives with substandard weapon systems. Why not return the favor?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 17 Jun 2014 09:38

nik wrote:Reading up Army report to Modi makes one really feel that Indian Army is a fascinating beast.

They claim of malnutrition (no ammunition, no artillery guns), even when a plate full of desi goodies (desi-bofors, Kalyani) is in front for ages.

Not willing to touch desi food because need foreign beer (MH777, Denel, Fenel and other crap) before food.

Seem to be utterly spoilt creature!


Rather than rant and rave, why don't you do a simple exercise which would actually add something to the debate - Pen down 10 items which WERE available or would have been available with domestic MIL-IND complex and which would have elevated the shortfall in IA - only if IA had not salivating after the foreign products rather than domestic ones.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 18 Jun 2014 11:53

rohitvats wrote:
nik wrote:Reading up Army report to Modi makes one really feel that Indian Army is a fascinating beast.

They claim of malnutrition (no ammunition, no artillery guns), even when a plate full of desi goodies (desi-bofors, Kalyani) is in front for ages.

Not willing to touch desi food because need foreign beer (MH777, Denel, Fenel and other crap) before food.

Seem to be utterly spoilt creature!


Rather than rant and rave, why don't you do a simple exercise which would actually add something to the debate - Pen down 10 items which WERE available or would have been available with domestic MIL-IND complex and which would have elevated the shortfall in IA - only if IA had not salivating after the foreign products rather than domestic ones.


1). OFB Bofors clone 155 mm 45-cal gun, available from 2004 onwards.
2). Arjun MBT, available atleast from 2007 onwards if not earlier.
3). DRDO APFSDS rounds, available and further development possible. IA not interested.
4). DRDO 120 mm/88 mm mortars, development not pursued by IA.
5). Follow on assault rifle for INSAS, IA not interested in Indian/DRDO developed solution.

These are just a few that immediately jump out.

Can you name 10 projects in the last 20 years, where the army has played a pro-active role and supported, funded and taken part in, the development of any major indigenous weapons system?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 18 Jun 2014 12:22

No point in been fierce fully loyal just because someone you know (paycheck) is in the armed forces. Same blind faith trapped and kept the same armed forces faithful to the British raj, enslaving rest of their brethren.

Here is what is needed-

1. Raise down India gate built by BRITISH and build something INDIAN to salute (like a massive steel iron pyramid). It's painful to still see things british age on our Republic or Independence day!

2. Move every darn military office out of Delhi, just leave bare minimum. High cost of living is a sure shot recipe for corruption. Operating out of Bihar will likely give better results.

Here is the Skinny for every Indian to think about -

SPEND 50 billion $ (in top 5 worldwide spenders list) and still, I mean STILL HAVE AN ARMY WHICH CANNOT FIRE A GUN FOR MORE THAN A WEEK? Akin to buying a BMW which cannot drive more than 10 kilometers.

Why? --> Imports
Solution? --> Imports
:-?

Import lobby is 100% Indian in the making. Time to get rid of this old way of thinking and doing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Jun 2014 13:07

The solution is very easy. Ban all imports. Just ban them. If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. We can not have security when we are biggest weapons importer in the world.

Once we ban all imports just give open tender for India private/PSU to participate and you will see most of the imports can be made in India only.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Jun 2014 13:38

Narayana Rao wrote:The solution is very easy. Ban all imports. Just ban them. If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. We can not have security when we are biggest weapons importer in the world.

Once we ban all imports just give open tender for India private/PSU to participate and you will see most of the imports can be made in India only.


"If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. "

Really?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SanjayC » 18 Jun 2014 14:02

Narayana Rao wrote:The solution is very easy. Ban all imports. Just ban them. If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. We can not have security when we are biggest weapons importer in the world.

Once we ban all imports just give open tender for India private/PSU to participate and you will see most of the imports can be made in India only.


Before banning imports, the Govt needs to allow full private sector participation in defence research and manufacturing. Once private companies have created a viable military-industrial complex, we can then ban imports and start exporting.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 18 Jun 2014 14:40

The private sector can participate, if the MoD and the services are really serious about it and offer a level playing field with weapons specifications, which are reasonable.

Since this is the artillery folder, here is the example. Kalyani Forge has developed a gun, by buying the Austrian Gun factory. But they can't test the gun in India, as all the test ranges are run only by the Army and the MoD has not granted them permission to test the guns at the Army test ranges. They themselves do not have a test range big enough to test 40-50 Km range heavy guns.
In the worst case, Kalyani will have to transport their guns to some foreign country, where they can rent a test range and test and validate their design. Once they offer the same to Army, the army will then subject the guns to tests, at their own test range to endless summer and winter trials.

This is really an absurd situation. If we are really serious about the artillery procurement, fixing these kind of issues should not be difficult.
The problem is that MoD and the services are not really interested in developing a strong Mil-Ind complex or being partners in indigenous development of weapons.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_20317 » 18 Jun 2014 15:12

Cosmo_R wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:The solution is very easy. Ban all imports. Just ban them. If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. We can not have security when we are biggest weapons importer in the world.

Once we ban all imports just give open tender for India private/PSU to participate and you will see most of the imports can be made in India only.


"If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. "

Really?



Sticky issue.

Why not have then a separate army which will fight with Indian weapons, to be deployed first? My personal favorite is this option. Just convert BSF into a heavily armed force with a massive budget dose 10 times its present size. Two separate budgets, will involve a significant initial economic hit but once things stabilize there will be more confidence in BSF hence lesser allocation and more confidence in regular army with lesser obligations hence lesser budget. If the concern is on account of - "let them die fighting with what nation can produce" - well then this limitation can be properly and honestly disclosed before the recruitment into BSF.


Alternative could be like

allowing DRDO+OFB+HAL+etc to work in a free market economy and let them sell their services to whoever bids the highest, with the earnings getting escrowed to buy what the Supply & Distribution managers wish for. Indian citizen will also live with the confidence that they cannot be blackmailed on crucial war fighting material by any foreign hand if the push comes to shove. We will have all the capacity we want. I am sure DRDO et al can work for whole of Africa+South America+South East Asia supplying them all they have produced till date at half the prices of the next better alternatives. This will basically involve a separate and probably bigger DRDO+PSU budget and a lower yearly defence budget since it would get supplemented by the escrow arrangements.

Second route will off course be less controversial as everybody gets what they want.


But yes Imports have to be curtailed except in cases where, the strategy cannot simply be changed for want of a weapon system. Today we import weapons, tomorrow we can import Amerikhan adminstration.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Jun 2014 16:41

On the simple solution "..let them die..."

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

H. L. Mencken

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 18 Jun 2014 17:51

"let them die fighting with what nation can produce"
This again is a viewpoint that Indian weapon system is not upto mark. If you look at the overall systems in Indian service, one will find that Indian systems are far better in overall terms and also most imported stuff dont work in Indian conditions. If they work also there are issues with spares. In reality most imported stuff dont work properly in a war scenario. Still the blame will be on Indian systems. That's how it's today.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 18 Jun 2014 18:27

What about shells for the guns ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nelson » 18 Jun 2014 20:12

Cosmo_R wrote:On the simple solution "..let them die..."

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

H. L. Mencken


Correct. I would bet anyone who propounds the solution of "...let them die..", has never volunteered for the Armed forces as a career, or even does not have someone from their inner circle of family'n'friends in uniform.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 18 Jun 2014 20:34

nik wrote:No point in been fierce fully loyal just because someone you know (paycheck) is in the armed forces. Same blind faith trapped and kept the same armed forces faithful to the British raj, enslaving rest of their brethren.

Here is what is needed-

1. Raise down India gate built by BRITISH and build something INDIAN to salute (like a massive steel iron pyramid). It's painful to still see things british age on our Republic or Independence day!

2. Move every darn military office out of Delhi, just leave bare minimum. High cost of living is a sure shot recipe for corruption. Operating out of Bihar will likely give better results.

Here is the Skinny for every Indian to think about -

SPEND 50 billion $ (in top 5 worldwide spenders list) and still, I mean STILL HAVE AN ARMY WHICH CANNOT FIRE A GUN FOR MORE THAN A WEEK? Akin to buying a BMW which cannot drive more than 10 kilometers.

Why? --> Imports
Solution? --> Imports
:-?

Import lobby is 100% Indian in the making. Time to get rid of this old way of thinking and doing.

Boss,

Why can't you write your post without adding personal attacks? You are walking on thin ice here. I am giving you some slack here because Rohit is a moderator. I won't next time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 18 Jun 2014 23:39

mody wrote: Rather than rant and rave, why don't you do a simple exercise which would actually add something to the debate - Pen down 10 items which WERE available or would have been available with domestic MIL-IND complex and which would have elevated the shortfall in IA - only if IA had not salivating after the foreign products rather than domestic ones.


1). OFB Bofors clone 155 mm 45-cal gun, available from 2004 onwards.
2). Arjun MBT, available atleast from 2007 onwards if not earlier.
3). DRDO APFSDS rounds, available and further development possible. IA not interested.
4). DRDO 120 mm/88 mm mortars, development not pursued by IA.
5). Follow on assault rifle for INSAS, IA not interested in Indian/DRDO developed solution.

These are just a few that immediately jump out. [/quote]

By making the above post, you've pointed out the main issue of how points are being mixed and completely nonsensical and inane posts are being made. Let me elaborate.

Now, go back to the original debate about Army pointing out deficiencies to Narendra Modi. General Bikram Singh has highlighted the same points as did General VK Singh. The Indian Army has raised two major issues:

(a) Shortage of War Wastage Reserve (WWR) - lesser number of holding of critical equipment like tank and artillery ammunition, anti-tank missiles etc.
(b) Transformation of the army (technological obsolescence) - induction of new generation weapon system like tanks, night fighting equipment for tanks, air-defense system etc.

Of the examples quoted by you, which one would fall under category (a) and which would fall under category (b)? Secondly, just because you've quoted them as examples, does not mean they hold good. But I will skip the part about countering points raised by you. As far as I'm concerned, apart from APFSDS point, none of the other points are valid.

The lack of involvement of IA with DRDO during weapon development is one thing and hold up of procurement of basic and transformation items by MOD/GOI is completely different.

Only a part of transformation of Indian Army (or Services) can and will be met by DRDO. And there are multiple reasons for the same. Time frame of requirement, lack of technology, limited budget etc.

Fact of the matter is bulk of first tranche of transformation required by the IA is going to be met by imports - and IMO, this is not by value but by the sheer number of different items required across the various arms of Indian Army.

Where ever development and delivery of indigenous products has kept reasonable pace with requirement (even accounting for delays), it has been inducted in large numbers. Dhruv ALH, Rudra, confirmed orders for LCH, Akash SAM, Electronic Warfare system, light weight radars in various categories, Pinaka MBRL, Bridge laying equipment etc. - the list is huge. One just needs to scan the pages of DRDO and its affiliate laboratories to see what all has been inducted.

But if you - and others - come back and whine about IA's proclivity for 'imports' being the be-all and end-all argument for delays in transformation of IA and short-fall of equipment, then it nothing but plain intellectual lethargy. Where making sweeping statements suffices to vent your steam and make a point.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 18 Jun 2014 23:51

<Rant by self deleted>

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 18 Jun 2014 23:55

Narayana Rao wrote:The solution is very easy. Ban all imports. Just ban them. If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. <SNIP>


Good point. I'm sure there are many patriots like you waiting to sign up and fight and die for the country.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 19 Jun 2014 00:02

mody wrote:<SNIP>The problem is that MoD and the services are not really interested in developing a strong Mil-Ind complex or being partners in indigenous development of weapons.


Why are you mixing the attitude and issues of MOD with the Army? Has the Army refused to provide test-ranges to the company for testing their gun? On the contrary, it was the trade union at Gun Factory which threatened to go on strike when they realized that TATA were also developing a 155mm gun - they relented only when it was told to them that TATA is developing a different class - mounted - of artillery gun.

As for Services and private sector - it is an established fact that Services want a more level playing field for the Private sector. They know very well that it is out of their power to reform Defense PSU and OFB. That is why they want to reach out to private sector. Why, even DRDO has reached out to Private Sector.

IAF and IA came out with biggest opportunities to increase private sector participation. IAF with AVRO replacement RFP and IA with BMP-2 replacement (FICV) RFP. While the former got stuck because HAL wanted a way in, the latter is stuck with MOD for 2+ years now for decision.

Who suffers in the end? Services.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby devesh » 19 Jun 2014 09:59

Cosmo_R wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:The solution is very easy. Ban all imports. Just ban them. If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. We can not have security when we are biggest weapons importer in the world.

Once we ban all imports just give open tender for India private/PSU to participate and you will see most of the imports can be made in India only.


"If IA/IAF/IN can not fight with Indian made weapons let them die fighting with what nation can produce. "

Really?



the statement sounds extreme. but if you think about it: the "them" is really "us". the "them" come from the citizenry of the nation. so in essence, the citizens will have no choice but to do everything possible, leaving no stone unturned, and arm the nation.

these seemingly suicidal ideas can actually be the revolution that is needed. it forces the best minds to simply abandon all escapist notions of importing.

I'm reminded of that Maratha general who cut off all routes of exit from an enemy camp which they had infiltrated: in effect sealing himself and his men inside the enemy fort. now his soldiers and his army had no choice but to fight and win. the only other option was certain death, or worse yet: torture under Islamic hands and/or conversion to Islam >> the Marathas won that fight. they fought like animals, almost beasts, and took the fort after slaughtering every last fighting Mussalman in the enemy army. this was in 1661, I think. I forget the specific fort.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_27164 » 19 Jun 2014 10:26

It was battle of fort Kondhana and name of the general is Suryaji Malusare. He was brother of legendary maratha warrior Tanaji.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 19 Jun 2014 11:46

Things one learns..

The fort, which was previously known as Kondhana, was controlled by Mirza Raja Jai Singh, and was strategically located amidst other forts in the region such as Rajgad, Purandar and Torna. The Mughals maintained an army of roughly 5000 men led by Udaybhan, a relative of Jai Singh, and the fort itself was defended by cannons at each turret.

Only one turret was left unguarded as it was at the top of a steep cliff, which was thought impossible to scale. Tanaji was able to infiltrate the fort and carry out a surveillance. He also discovered that there was a party on the night of the battle, so the Mughal soldiers would be off their guard. Tanaji was assisted by his brother Suryaji along with 300 Mavalas, who were light infantry of Maval.

Battle

Legend has it that Tanaji used a monitor lizard named Yeshwanti, with a rope tied around its waist for climbing up the steep vertical rock face. After 342 marathas reached on the top with Tanaji Malusare, the rope gave away due to abrasion against the rocks and 60 Marathas who were climbing on the rope fell down and died. Tanaji Malusare then instructed his brother Suryaji to continue the attack with other Marathas from the Kalyan darwaja with the assurance that the Mahadeo Kolis would help him get through.

Once inside, they set upon Udaybhan and his men. A fierce combat took place between Tanaji and Udaybhan. Udaybhan managed to rid Tanaji of his shield, who then continued to fight by tying a cloth over one of his hands and using it to ward off Udaybhan's sword attacks. Tanaji fought fiercely in spite of losing his shield. He managed to acquire another sword and was thus fighting Uday Bhan with two swords while the latter fought with a sword and a shield. At the climax of the battle, each one struck a fatal blow to the other, both collapsing and succumbing to their injuries. The fall of Tanaji created a panic amongst his soldiers who tried to use the ropes as an escape route. Legend states that the ropes were then cut by Tanaji's brother Suryaji forcing the soldiers to either fight or jump down the sheer cliffs to their deaths. This was in line with the ideology of Shivaji, wherein the Marathas were not fighting for a king or a master, but for the freedom of their motherland. A loss of the leader should not deter the morale of the force but instead a new leader should take his place without any delay. Tanaji's surprise attack in the dead of the night caught the defenders offguard and the fort was captured by the Marathas. Shivaji subsequently renamed Kondana fort to Sinhagad (Lion's Fort) in honor of Tanaji, whose nickname was "the Lion".

Aftermath

Nearly 1500 Mughal infantry fled to Pune from Sinhagad after the battle taking advantage of darkness of midnight. This battle significantly boosted confidence of Marathas and within two months after this battle Marathas won all nearby forts like Purandar, Lohagad so on. Till beginning of rainy monsoon season, excluding Pune, Indapur and Baramati all regions were won by Marathas. In June 1670, the Mogul army was totally unprepared and ill-equipped as monsoon had arrived. Sensing this as unique opportunity Chatrapati Shivaji decided to attack urban area of Pune, Baramati, Supe and Indapur in the rainy season. Within 10–15 days, Marathas captured all these areas from Mughal Empire, this transition happened nearly after 10 years that is in 1660, these cities were captured by Mughal army headed by Shahista Khan.
Legacy

Upon hearing the news of the capture of the fort at the cost of Tanaji's life, Shivaji was greatly aggrieved and is said to have remarked, "Gad aala, pan Sinha gela" - "We won the Fort, but lost the Lion". The legend says that the fort was renamed from Kondhana to Sinhagad, in honor of Tanaji (who Shivaji metaphorically referred to as a Lion).

Today, there is a monument with a bust of Tanaji in honor of his valour. The name of the road from Pune City to Fort is known as Tanaji Malusare Road.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 19 Jun 2014 12:04

What Mody and others says is correct in spirit, however small corrections.......

1). OFB Bofors clone 155 mm 45-cal gun, available from 2004 onwards (Gun barrel from 2000s but Breech Block Tech was from Israel somewhere around 2010s - however no excuse for this, even N. Korea, Iran, Singapore (no firing ranges ) and Poland, among 20-30 other countries have made artillery.Only India and SAARC lagged behind. If we can make Space rockets and PARAM (only 5 countries can) then this was also possible.
2). Arjun MBT, available atleast from 2007 onwards if not earlier.(no contest here)
3). DRDO APFSDS rounds, available and further development possible. IA not interested.(This is actually complicated issue, no ready answers)
4). DRDO 120 mm/88 mm mortars, development not pursued by IA.(It weighs 388 kg, and some broken down parts may weigh 140 - 160 kg. How many mules with 20-50 kg payload can carry them in the mountains, which was IA's objective.....however, a Vehicle mounted version was not pursued.)
5). Follow on assault rifle for INSAS, IA not interested in Indian/DRDO developed solution.(Some IA retired chap wrote recently that DRDO was offered ToT by H&K and Beretta, but choose to "re-invent the wheel." Well, about 100+ Countries have chosen the same path, and maybe it was good decision to do so. INSAS not perfect, but a quality improvement programme and hiring of expert consultants can actually do wonders - every 3rd US citizen is an expert gunsmith with vast experience in AR 15 type rifles. )

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 19 Jun 2014 18:23

The main point of my argument, that the level of involvement, during the development cycle of weapons, that the service have.
Right from the time of formulating the requirements, till the final testing.

More often then not, it has been the case that the services after drafting super duper requirements, have taken a hand off approach to the development of the weapons. They seem to be saying, "here are our requirements, come back to us, when you have fulfilled them".
This is a classic enduser/client approach only and not a partner type of approach.

In many cases, the final testing phase can actually be shortened considerably, if the services had been involved with the development right from the beginning. Maybe the fault is not entirely with the services, but just the way the whole system is structured.

In any case, from the few examples that I had given, agree with Dinesh Kumar, about the OFB gun. The barrel was ready around 2000-01 and an existing bofors gun, with the OFB developed 45 caliber barrel, was displayed at DefExpo 2004. An upgraded M46 gun, with the same 155 mm barrel was also displayed.

Victor
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Victor » 19 Jun 2014 19:25

Give private Indian companies a level playing field and our problems are over not just for guns but for all weapons systems. The solution is staring us in the eyeballs but the pro-DPSU gravy train has been so strong that our soldiers are left literally without guns and ammo today. Even COASs warning the PMO has had no effect. The stupidity is just mind boggling. Keyboard soldiers, who wouldn't last 10 minutes in Siachen or Kutch desert with full kit, sit safely on their musharrafs in airconditioned comfort and pontificate that jawans should die with any bones our union-controlled DPSUs throw out at them, even if they are junk. Even the ISI couldn't have done a better job than these worthies. Where's the puke icon when you need it :evil: .

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby A Sharma » 19 Jun 2014 22:01


anirban_aim
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby anirban_aim » 19 Jun 2014 22:08

Slightly Confused. Why this sudden News report? Last heard IA was looking for 155 mm 52 Caliber gun and 45 Caliber gun was considered not up to the mark.

Something has changed somewhere? or is it DDM

vic
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 19 Jun 2014 22:10

It is wrong to criticize Army Brass. They gave only a small order of USD One Billion to Smerch without any testing in Rajasthan or in Himalayas. Or a minor order of USD 250 million for Kraspanol crap but they have been fully supportive of Dhanush by giving a massive order of USD 40 million in just one go inspite of 3 years of testing.

John
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby John » 19 Jun 2014 23:11

vic wrote:It is wrong to criticize Army Brass. They gave only a small order of USD One Billion to Smerch without any testing in Rajasthan or in Himalayas. Or a minor order of USD 250 million for Kraspanol crap but they have been fully supportive of Dhanush by giving a massive order of USD 40 million in just one go inspite of 3 years of testing.

What other alt to Smerch do we have and it may be maintenance nightmare as with other russian product but its not crap by any means, considering how widely deployed it is. Besides' you are not even comparing 2 similar systems, Dhanush is going thru the same testing the other artillery went thru, which IMO is overkill.

member_23360
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_23360 » 20 Jun 2014 05:12

with Indian economy going downwards, there will not be many import options available. IA has to choose them wisely
and priority should be given to ones which are not available domestically and can't be developed in at least 5 years.

arnabh
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby arnabh » 20 Jun 2014 07:05


Philip
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 20 Jun 2014 11:03

Excellent news! But such a low rate of production? It will then take 10 years to make just 180 guns. What will the IA do in the meantime,use rubber bands and catapults?

Asit P
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Asit P » 20 Jun 2014 13:33

With an order of 116 guns, they are doubling their manufacturing capacity. I am sure there will be further spurt in the production rate when Army confirms the order of 416 guns.


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