Artillery: News & Discussion

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Sep 2014 16:26

what a major goof up in that image , they didnt even notice it before giving it for printing

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2014 16:55

bharat forge has a annual revenue of only around $600 mil, thyssenkrupp group is Euro 43billion and has 180,000 employees across 600 cos albeit spread across many business like elevators also.
the equivalent to BF is a unit called TK Forgings http://www.thyssenkrupp-forginggroup.co ... odukte.htm
I think they make around $1.2 bil
they have separate cos that supply raw metal pieces and sheets to aerospace sector.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 11 Sep 2014 17:38

krishnan wrote:

what a major goof up in that image , they didnt even notice it before giving it for printing

Happens, they focus on the 'future'.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 11 Sep 2014 17:40

One issue is that the 155mm gun they displayed at DefExpo did not seem to have even an ounce of electronics, an increasingly valuable part of the artillery systems. The OFB Dhanush was looking relatively TFTA with its thermal sight, color display, muzzle velocity radar(?) etc. Hope they tie up with BEL or whoever to get an indigenous solution for the same.

Marten wrote:Same applies to production values. OFB manuactures 18 guns a year. EIGHTEEN! To expect 200 guns/year from a private firm where firm orders are expected to be around 400 is unrealistic.

AFAIK the production target has been hiked to 100 guns/year to be reached in 2 years.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 11 Sep 2014 18:01

Arun Menon wrote:^One ultralight gun is 105 mm and the other is 155 mm. Both were featured in defexpo, but only 105 mm was an actual working specimen (on a humvee I think), the other one was just a poster.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 11 Sep 2014 18:07

(deleted)

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 11 Sep 2014 18:11

Indian Bofors: Auto components leader Bharat Forge turns focus to defence technology, ready with advanced guns

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2014 20:24

Being imported design made in India they will surely have all necessary electronics and provision for more.

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Sep 2014 21:39

Bharat forge should engage with DRDO for MCIWS and BEL for electronics of their howitzers.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 11 Sep 2014 22:01

Excellent news .... the pain started with artillery in 90s and hopefully the healing will begin with same

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Sep 2014 00:26

Don't underestimate pigheadedness and malafide intentions of relevant MoD and Army departments. They may still find 100s of ways to put all these hopes to death for any reason.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 12 Sep 2014 02:26

One thing to note is that the 'second tier' forces have been better DRDO and 'Made in India' goods customers than Army-IAF, specifically internal security forces. Big driver is limited budgets which are incapable of billion dollar imported eye candy acquisitions (though Italian imports make it everywhere for obvious first family connections).

May be Bharat Forge should try selling to BSF and likes simultaneously rather than Army only. BSF will be happy to send 'hot' sweets across the border with these guns.

We need a gun every 10 KM on Paki border to send cockroaches back in to their holes. Total required = 2900KMS/10KM~300 guns only. With a basic range of 30 kms, we can get 7 guns barraging on any dumb jihadi's head if he gets anywhere near the border. If the a**holes like heads then we will serve them in plenty.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Sep 2014 05:23

While procuring new guns does make a lot of sense, so does using the current anti-jihadic sentiment around the world to douse as much as possible those jihadic fires across the border. I am sure China would go along for some distance in such matters.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Sep 2014 05:45

nik wrote:...

We need a gun every 10 KM on Paki border to send cockroaches back in to their holes. Total required = 2900KMS/10KM~300 guns only. With a basic range of 30 kms, we can get 7 guns barraging on any dumb jihadi's head if he gets anywhere near the border. If the a**holes like heads then we will serve them in plenty.

It's never been lack of capability. It has always been lack of will.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Sep 2014 10:16

via saurav jha tweet

BTW please don't think the Dhanush is simply a 45 calibre version of the FH-77B. It is a generation ahead with a lot of valuable electronics

for instance Dhanush has an onboard muzzle velocity radar for recordings. In FH-77B this is done on board.

All ballistic calculations are also done on board using an enhanced tactical computer for the Dhanush.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 13:43

I would imagine the round small drum thing above the root of the barrel is the muzzle velocity radar
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 022129.jpg

the operator station does look way more netcentric and IT enabled than fh77b
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... ry_003.jpg
the colour display unit mounted high up on right with daytime shade is the output of the muzzle velocity radar

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Sep 2014 10:25

Austin wrote:via saurav jha tweet

BTW please don't think the Dhanush is simply a 45 calibre version of the FH-77B. It is a generation ahead with a lot of valuable electronics

for instance Dhanush has an onboard muzzle velocity radar for recordings. In FH-77B this is done on board.

All ballistic calculations are also done on board using an enhanced tactical computer for the Dhanush.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Sep 2014 10:37

hecky wrote:Indian Bofors: Auto components leader Bharat Forge turns focus to defence technology, ready with advanced guns

Kiss OFB goodbye in a few years. These guys are one of the biggest parasites on the indian tax payer. DRDO is next.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Sep 2014 10:39

krishnan wrote:

what a major goof up in that image , they didnt even notice it before giving it for printing

What incentive do they have to even market their products? They live in a bubble funded by the indian tax payer.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Sep 2014 13:18

RoyG wrote:Kiss OFB goodbye in a few years. These guys are one of the biggest parasites on the indian tax payer. DRDO is next.

Not going to happen. Given the budgetary allocations, its clear OFB is being given a overhaul and modernization, and DRDO is well on its way to becoming an end to end weapons system design provider in specific areas (missiles, radars & electronic systems).

There has been a massive increase in funding to the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO). DRDO’s capital allocation of Rs 5,985 crore, provided in February’s interim Budget, has been increased by almost 60 per cent to Rs 9,298 crore — the largest jump in DRDO’s history.

This takes R&D in the defence sector to Rs 15,283 crore, almost seven per cent of the Rs 2,29,000 crore-defence budget. DRDO, which has been receiving about 5 per cent of the defence budget, has long pleaded for 7 to 8 per cent.

The capital allocation for the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which will be used for modernising the ministry’s network of 41 factories that manufacture arms, ammunition and equipment for the military, was doubled. The OFB’s allocation of Rs 530 crore has been raised to Rs 1,207 crore.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/idr- ... ssue_id=47

The Indian forces requirements are so massive that the combination of pvt and public both will find it hard to meet the demand, and both will serve as a useful check on each other. The GOI doesn't want to be beholden to any price gouging private cartel or an OFB trade union either.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/509940443316908032
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/509938053746421761
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/509940150063742976

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 13 Sep 2014 14:09

nik wrote:We need a gun every 10 KM on Paki border to send cockroaches back in to their holes. Total required = 2900KMS/10KM~300 guns only. With a basic range of 30 kms, we can get 7 guns barraging on any dumb jihadi's head if he gets anywhere near the border.

Waah!!

Please tell the IA why they continue to have wet-dreams in thousands when they only need 300.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 13 Sep 2014 14:11

hecky wrote:

This is intresting, so the DRDO is also thinking on the lines of a larger 25L chamber. Doesnt look like they have made up their mind though!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Sep 2014 14:58

Depends on what trials throw up. Higher chamber pressure should allow for future proofing tho'..

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 14 Sep 2014 02:34

So we now have -
155mm/52 cal Bharat Forge gun which is basically an upgraded GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal upgraded Bofors design by OFB
155mm/52 cal truck mounted TATA/Denel design which is also likely based on GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal tracked L&T Samsung Vajra ased on K9 design

Technically, they can all win. The towed order can be split between Bharat Forge and OFB. Tata and L&T is lone runners in their respective categories.

Also, is the OFB 155mm/45 cal gun a done deal for IA?

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 14 Sep 2014 03:52

Newbie question, What does 155mm and 52 caliber stand for?

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 14 Sep 2014 05:41

155mm refers to the diameter of the barrel.

52 caliber refers to the length of the barrel.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m198.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber#Ca ... _of_length
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 834AALur6M

-Ankit

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 Sep 2014 08:49

Santosh wrote:So we now have -
155mm/52 cal Bharat Forge gun which is basically an upgraded GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal upgraded Bofors design by OFB
155mm/52 cal truck mounted TATA/Denel design which is also likely based on GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal tracked L&T Samsung Vajra ased on K9 design

Technically, they can all win. The towed order can be split between Bharat Forge and OFB. Tata and L&T is lone runners in their respective categories.

Also, is the OFB 155mm/45 cal gun a done deal for IA?

I don't see any reason to buy guns whose IP we don't own (TATA, L&T etc) when we have our own guns from Bharat Forge and OFB.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Sep 2014 09:58

abhik wrote:
Santosh wrote:So we now have -
155mm/52 cal Bharat Forge gun which is basically an upgraded GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal upgraded Bofors design by OFB
155mm/52 cal truck mounted TATA/Denel design which is also likely based on GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal tracked L&T Samsung Vajra ased on K9 design

Technically, they can all win. The towed order can be split between Bharat Forge and OFB. Tata and L&T is lone runners in their respective categories.

Also, is the OFB 155mm/45 cal gun a done deal for IA?
I don't see any reason to buy guns whose IP we don't own (TATA, L&T etc) when we have our own guns from Bharat Forge and OFB.

That is absolutely right. It makes much more sense for Tata, the indigenous prime mover expert, to tie up with Bharat Forge, the local gun expert, rather than having Tata import a gun or BF import a prime mover. Why import from Denel/ Samsung/ whoever when both parts to the solution are available indigenously from companies that are (a) in the same city (Pune); (b) have complementary and not competing product lines; and (c) each have expertise in one of the two components of a complete solution. I do not include the OFB in this because they do not play well with others, and their delivery capability is suspect.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 14 Sep 2014 11:00

Questions to Gurus:
Which design in your opinion is more versatile GHN/GC-45 design or the Bofors design ?

I looked at the Panter video below and was much impressed. It looked pretty easier to use. The firing position is much lower and hence it might not require lots of jumping as shown by IA Bofors video in earlier posts. The Bharat Forge 155mm/52 cal looks very similar to Panter. It crew team is of 6 members.

Bofors on the other hand has other advantages like speed of deployment, crane of handling the shells/ammo etc. Crew is of 8 members (not sure whether it will be less for OFB gun or not).

Panter Video

Bofors Video

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 14 Sep 2014 18:46

Ankit Desai wrote:155mm refers to the diameter of the barrel.

52 caliber refers to the length of the barrel.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m198.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber#Ca ... _of_length
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 834AALur6M

-Ankit

Thanks Ankit.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Sep 2014 19:08

The Bofors looks a more compact design with much faster 'into' action station time. Panter has a larger foot-print. However, the APU on Panter looker more powerful and as per Wikipedia, allows for road speed of up to 18 Kmph. If not the speed, that engine power would be helpful to move the gun between different firing positions. Not to forget, the Panter weighs 18 ton as compared to Bofors at 12 ton. The FH77B05 with 155/52 caliber weighs around 13 ton. So, the more powerful APU and larger foot-print has its penalties.

PS: IIRC, there used to be minimum height requirement for Medium Regiments in the IA. I think it was 5'10"...anyone knows the current scenario? Those fellows in Bofors video look about this height.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 Sep 2014 20:44

The Panter (and others guns which share the same layout) having higher moving speed on APU probably because the barrel assembly swivels back 180 degrees to between the spades and at low elevation which would put its center of gravity low and always between its sets of wheels. With the FH77 layout you would have a far greater chance of it tipping over or to the side, so you probably don't want to go very fast anyway.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 14 Sep 2014 22:27

Modern artillery may give a boost to army’s firepower

After an almost 26-year wait, the Indian Army may finally lay its hands on what are being touted as modern artillery guns developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The army will get 40 self-propelled guns (SPG), recently developed by the Chennai-based Central Vehicle Research and Development Establishment of DRDO, worth R820 crore to meet the force's requirements, sources said.

Though these 130-mm guns will not be a substitute to the aging Bofors received from Sweden in 1986, or the ultra-light Howitzers, they will help bolster the force's firepower.

The gun's system, called in artillery terminology a “catapult”, comprises a 130-mm gun mounted on a main battle tank (MBT) — in this case, the chassis of the DRDO-developed Arjun tank — allowing it to keep up with tank columns and provide them support in battle. “Catapult is mainly used to engage in indirect fire. Its targets are enemy artillery units, tanks, troops at their concentration areas, permanent defensive installations and other field fortifications,” said an officer. “The gun has an indirect firing range of 27.4 km, and direct firing range of 1.4 km. It can be fired at various angles of elevation as well. But, it is surely not a substitute to high-end artillery like Howitzers,” an officer said.

Sources said the army's 220 artillery regiments have received no new artillery since the 1980s, when the FH-77B, 155-mm/39-calibre Bofors were bought from Sweden. However, after allegations of kickbacks, only 400 Bofors guns were delivered and rest of the contract annulled.

But, the Ordnance Factory Board’s effort to build a 155-mm/45-calibre indigenous gun is facing trouble after the gun barrel was burst during its trials. The procurement of 145 M777 Ultra-Light Howitzers through the the US Government also stands cancelled due to cost issues and because the vendor's proposal is not fully compliant to the offset requirements, the defence ministry claims.

The defence ministry has already put in place a R35,000-crore plan to modernise artillery.

In the long run, the armed forces could provide orders worth over R1.5 lakh crore to domestic companies. Already, Tata Power Strategic Electronics Division, L&T and Bharat Forge are engaged in developing prototype of this gun so that they can get into production of these advanced guns after approval by the end-user, which is the army in this case. The Modi-led government has also cleared more support to the DRDO-developed Arjun tank by renewing a R6,600-crore clearance for 118 Arjun Mark II tanks. This will equip two army tank regiments, adding to an earlier order for 124 Arjun Mark I tanks.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 15 Sep 2014 07:40

^Seems like defense reporting is getting more and more dumber, something I previously thought impossible, because they already seemed to have hit rock bottom.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Sep 2014 10:37

Arun Menon wrote:^Seems like defense reporting is getting more and more dumber, something I previously thought impossible, because they already seemed to have hit rock bottom.

Army is getting the 130mm Catapult system from CVRDE and private companies are elbowing into the action with full force with state-of-the-art 155mm artillery. Win-win-win is what I read. What is dumber and dumber about it?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Sep 2014 11:07

I will keep my fingers crossed on the subject till such time the orders for the domestic gun are not completed.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 15 Sep 2014 12:54

Victor wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:^Seems like defense reporting is getting more and more dumber, something I previously thought impossible, because they already seemed to have hit rock bottom.
Army is getting the 130mm Catapult system from CVRDE and private companies are elbowing into the action with full force with state-of-the-art 155mm artillery. Win-win-win is what I read. What is dumber and dumber about it?

I said defense reporting, do you have trouble reading? If you still have trouble understanding, please look into the 155/45 howitzer Dhanush's trials and results and how many orders have been placed and how many future orders are expected. Either the journo is a dumba$$ who has no idea about what he is writing about or he is a paid presstitute. Either way, defense reporting is becoming dumber.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Sep 2014 20:00

Arun Menon wrote: I said defense reporting, do you have trouble reading? If you still have trouble understanding, please look into the 155/45 howitzer Dhanush's trials and results and how many orders have been placed and how many future orders are expected. Either the journo is a dumba$$ who has no idea about what he is writing about or he is a paid presstitute. Either way, defense reporting is becoming dumber.

Hold up the mirror--it seems "what I read" in my post escaped your reading capability. About the Dhanush, papa MoD may place orders but the Army will not use a gun that had a barrel burst/fall off until the trials conclusively prove that the gun is more dangerous to the enemy than the user. That has yet to happen and future orders are vaporware in the meantime. The Catapult is a rare success and something the army can use, even if it is strictly a back-room jugaad product. And the very fact that Tata and others are coming in spells the end of OFB, which IMO is the biggest win of all. The reporter was on the dot, hence the question. If you check around, you will find that abusive language is a characteristic of internet pakis who resort to name-calling when facts don't suit them.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Sep 2014 07:03

^The barrel burst was due to faulty (expired) ammunition and that fact has been "conclusively proven" by investigations into the incident. The army is well aware of that and is fully on board on this procurement. Who told you the army was resisting this purchase?

Given that 155/52 procurement is still a question, they are happy to get a functioning 155/45 howitzer that is free from corruption scandals. It is also in the final phases of its trials, which are conducted by the army itself. So where does it state that they are not going to use it?

Maybe you should not focus on just negative news reports about indigenous defense efforts.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 856813.cms

Desi Bofors howitzer undergoes final trials in major boost to indigenization

Both the Army and OFB, in fact, are "quite excited" about Dhanush

Now does that sound like what you are trying to imply?

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Sep 2014 07:12

Marten wrote:...
Same applies to production values. OFB manuactures 18 guns a year. EIGHTEEN! To expect 200 guns/year from a private firm where firm orders are expected to be around 400 is unrealistic. ...

Desi Bofors howitzer undergoes final trials in major boost to indigenization

Jun 20, 2014
...

The Army hopes to plug at least some of its operational gaps in long-range, high-volume firepower through the initial induction of 414 Dhanush guns. The OFB has already been given an order of over Rs 1,260 crore to make 114 howitzers.

"Dhanush is around 80% indigenous now. It costs just about Rs 14 crore apiece. Only its APU (auxiliary power unit), electronic dial sights and a few other small items are imported. As per the plan, OFB will manufacture 18 howitzers in this financial year, followed by 50 in the next, and 100 per year thereafter," said the official.
...

Based on the current production plan, it will take around 6 years (2020) to produce all 414 Dhanush guns.