Artillery: News & Discussion

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2797
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby prahaar » 28 Apr 2015 15:57

Gyan wrote:I think the drawings of Dhanush/Bofors should be released to Pvt sector and versions like towed, mounted, tracked, upgrades etc should be based on Dhanush & awarded om competitive basis.


Can someone in the know explain why the use of Bofors blueprint took so long? I find it unbelievable that technology that was fully paid for was never used. Even Kargil and later operation Parakram did not result in any action. Any source pointing towards this would be very helpful.

Most google searches indicate Gen. VKS kick-started this activity, and could be a reason for getting into a tiff with the corrupt vested interest. Is the story that simple?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2015 15:59

100 now and 400 later makes no sense if it cleared all trials unless army is suspicious of ofb build quality and wants to keep options still open!

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 28 Apr 2015 16:19

Having multiple designs does not make sense. Give upgrades to PVT Sector. Also built capabilities in PVT sector by sharing Bofors - OFB design & encouraging them to set up second line of production for Mounted & Tracked howitzers

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Apr 2015 16:40

prahaar wrote:
Gyan wrote:I think the drawings of Dhanush/Bofors should be released to Pvt sector and versions like towed, mounted, tracked, upgrades etc should be based on Dhanush & awarded om competitive basis.


Can someone in the know explain why the use of Bofors blueprint took so long? I find it unbelievable that technology that was fully paid for was never used. Even Kargil and later operation Parakram did not result in any action. Any source pointing towards this would be very helpful.

Most google searches indicate Gen. VKS kick-started this activity, and could be a reason for getting into a tiff with the corrupt vested interest. Is the story that simple?


Karan has listed a seminar summary from CLAWS in the DRDO Goof-ups thread which nicely details the origins of the Dhanush from the horse's mouth. It has been a continous process since 2002. Finally the hard work seems to have paid off..

Upgrades in caliber are not as easy for an org which has little tech depth...

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2797
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby prahaar » 28 Apr 2015 17:48

vaibhav.n wrote:
Karan has listed a seminar summary from CLAWS in the DRDO Goof-ups thread which nicely details the origins of the Dhanush from the horse's mouth. It has been a continous process since 2002. Finally the hard work seems to have paid off..

Upgrades in caliber are not as easy for an org which has little tech depth...


Thanks I will check it out.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pragnya » 28 Apr 2015 19:20

copy pasting the portion dealing with the evolution of Dhanush for posterity. there would be some format errors i could not overcome. Karan M posted the link -

http://www.claws.in/images/events/pdf/1 ... il2014.pdf

Changes in Policies to Accelerate Indigenisation: Shri N K Sinha, General
Manager, Gun Carriage Factory


As we all know that the Bofors gun was last supplied to this country in 1989 and
thereafter for historical reasons there could not be any further progress of the
operationalization of the ToT. We had received certain documents, with which we
have now completed the evolution of the gun system in our own country; we have
also upgraded the 39 calibre gun to 45 calibre. In my presentation today I am going
to cover my talk in four stages. The first stage is the process prior to seeking DAC
approval for Ordnance Factory Board to manufacture this gun and what all has gone
to manufacturing this gun system. In the second stage, I would like to spend some
time on the DHANUSH Model that was adopted for this project and so far it has
proved that we are quite successful. In the third stage, I would like to bring forward
the contribution of the users, the partnership between the user, OFB and all other
stakeholders which has contributed in such fast development of the weapon system
and finally, I would like to conclude my presentation with the crucial takeaways from
this project.

As I mentioned, the last gun was supplied to this country in 1989. And
thereafter, there is no further progress on the operationalisation of ToT
agreement. Therefore, Ordnance Factory Board in consultation with the Armed
Forces conducted development of certain crucial spares that may be required
for keeping gun system operational. Way back in 1990 the effort to develop these
spares was initiated. Simultaneously, we also started developing an upgrade on 130
mm gun chassis for 155/45 caliber gun system. Three factories in the Ordnance
Factory Board that is Ordnance Factory at Kanpur, Field Gun Factory, Kanpur and
Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur started development of these. Between 1993 and
1999, three different versions of the upgrade for development were progressed. The
first gun which was developed, with a breech screw similar to the one available on
Bofors. The second one was developed with a sliding breech that was developed by
Ordnance Factory Board designers. And the third, with 45 caliber barrel with sliding
breech screw. The final version of the upgrade was proof fired and all the
parameters were established. This was the first step which laid the foundation for
the development of a 155/45 calibre Dhanush today. But after 1999, there was a lull
and no further work or development in productionising of this particular weapon
system was undertaken. In 2002 once again in a meeting with Chairman as MGO,
the proposal for development of a gun system was discussed. The first proposal was
for upgrade of existing 155/39 gun to 45 caliber gun and the Ordnance Factory
Board during that presentation made a pitch for development of this gun. It was also
proposed that we upgrade one of the guns electronic systems and electronic
sighting. This proposal was accepted by Army Headquarters. OFB then started with
these projects as an R & D project. Internal R &D project office of Ordnance Factory
Board was chosen and a barrel design was finalized by OFB engineers, which was
shared with CQA (Metallurgy) for validation and inspection coverage. At this stage
one of the international suppliers, SAGEM offered an INS to be mounted on this gun
system. It was accessed that a upgrade of 45 calibre which generate the kind of
forces which will not be possible to be absorbed by the muzzle brake provided on the
Bofors gun. So therefore it was necessary that a muzzle brake be subsequently
designed and also the integrated on this barrel with the breech ring, which also had
to be developed. With these design issues in mind, specific Design Review
Committee was formed. Chairman of the Upgradation Committee was GM, GCF and
that was the beginning of design effort for a new barrel, new muzzle brake and
integration. Three Product Development Committees were formed, one each for
breech and breech mechanism, carriage and muzzle brake with the involvement of
stakeholders such as DGQA, OFB and DRDO.

Between 2004 and 2005, we developed the barrel of 155/45 and it was test fired in
September in 2004 at PXE, Balasore. The 1st strength proof for 155x45 calibre barrel
was done in Jan 2005 was supervised by representatives from SQA (Weapons),
SQAE(Ammunition) and GCF. This particular ordnance had a muzzle brake which
was newly designed Vaned Slot Muzzle Brake. The result of the firing was very
fulfilling, satisfactory while length and maximum pressure was quite satisfactory and
could be adopted. However, during different stages of design evolution, concerns
was expressed about these muzzle brake. After detailed analysis of various
parameters of barrel performance it was concluded that this particular muzzle brake
may not work, it has to be changed and a modified double baffle brake modified
muzzle brake was considered to be a suitable option. The evaluation constituted
many firings including comparative firing between L/39 and L/45 barrels, the carriage
though at that stage was the same. The modified double baffle muzzle brake was
designed and trials were conducted and it was found that the maximum pressure of
buffer and recoil length were observed to be well within limits of original ordnance
139/45 gun system. And therefore this design was found to be acceptable. The
efficiency which was available in the original muzzle brake of Bofors was 33% was
further improved up to 53% in the case of double baffle muzzle break and as a result
of that the forces on the gun structure was substantially reduced and there was no
significant change required in the gun system.

Simultaneously we also developed and integrated an electronic suite completely with
gun system. This electronic suite was again supplied by Bharat Electronics Limited
and we had been able to integrate that with the gun and we fired electronically
upgraded gun system at Balasore. Both the firings were successful. After the
success of these initial firing, range and accuracy firing also was done at PFFR.
I will now bring out certain comparative characteristics of these two guns. The Bofors
39 and Dhanush. The barrel length increased almost by one meter and the weight of
the barrel increased by 200 kgs approximately. The ordnance weight similarly
increased by 200 kgs. The chamber capacity, that was one significant design
increased frem 19 to 23 litres. Maximum range consequently increased to 39 kms
and the muzzle velocity increased marginally. Auto frettage of the barrel which was
done at Gun Factory Kanpur was increased to 675 mpi. The type of ammunition that
could be used in the upgraded gun system included almost all varieties. The upgrade
was also made compatible for taking BMCS ammunition of highest charge. After the
firing in 2008, where all parameters of the newly developed gun system were
validated, i.e., after three years of successful first test firing of the gun, in 2011
Defence Acquisition Council accorded AoN for 155 mm x 45 Cal Gun System for
procurement from OFB.

The Dhanush Model : I would like to share the experience of recent Dhanush
performance in sub zero temperatures in Sikkim which implies that it is satisfactorily
working in the extreme climatic conditions and performing admirably. Dhanush
today has 23 major assemblies and 874 sub-assemblies, 80% of which have
been indigenized. The system has 3430 manufactured items/sub-systems
which have been mostly manufactured in house by OFB and about 4902
bought out items, which are being looked at for indigenisation.

Evolution of Dhanush, started out from upgrades done in the 2008 to another
upgrade in January 2012 155 mm FH Electronics and 155 mm FH Project
DhanushOFB Prototype -1 in Dec 2012. Finally, in 2013-14 OFB Prototypes -
3,4,5 and 6 were developed. Step by step development of Dhanush was
undertaken which meant that the major sub-assemblies were manufactured
separately in stages. We changed the indigenous components, one by one and
proof fired them to establish the correctness of the manufacturing process.
To this end before we took two guns from Army. The first one was upgraded with the
45 calibre barrel and the complimentary components. The second one was
upgraded electronically and both these gun successfully proof fired at Balasore. The
success of these two gun systems helped us in taking the next step forward. At this
stage we were to decide whether to go in for 45 or 39 calibre gun systems. But
seeing the success of the upgraded 45 calibre gun, it was then concluded that we
should further proceed on the same path by developing 45 calibre gun systems only.
Both these guns developed had 45 to 65% of indigenisation components at
that stage. Both these were test fired at Balasore and proved to be quite
satisfactory. In January 2013 we had a demonstration firing of these weapons at
Pokhran. Many of the senior officers of the Army witnessed the performance of these
guns. From January 2013 to end of the year, OFB carried out several firings in
different locations in the country. The prototype number three was manufactured in
April and successfully test fired at Pokhran. The fourth gun was subsequently
manufactured and taken for user trials, which is where as many of us know the
unfortunate incident took place. As a result, detailed analysis was again conducted
and the barrel and structural designs revisited, which clarified that there was no
deficiencies in the gun system. The fifth prototype was developed after two months
and recently trial evaluated in Sikkim.

Associations and Stakeholders: The project was progressed by the active
involvement and commitment of all stakeholders. Indian Army as Users provided
support, monitoring and coordination. DRDO was responsible for design support,
DGQA for proof testing and validation, SAIL as suppliers of micro alloy steel plates,
506 ABW as partners in development and maintenance and BEL supported the
Electrical & Electronic Modules for the sighting system and electronic suite.
Associations and contributions of the different organisations within OFB as well as
other DPSUs and private sector in the development and manufacture of Dhanush
gun systems have been noteworthy, particularly for laser cutting, fabrication,
machining, integration & assembly of Dhanush prototype by GCF, Wheels by
Wheels India, MRF, DLSI, Braking system by WABCO, Hydraulic systems by
DANTAL, Power plant by DLSI, Investment castings by OFM, Heavy steel castings
by OFM, Micro alloy steel plates by SAIL, metal and forging by MSF, Ordnance by
OFC/FGK, Electronic suite and electrical by BEL, Wheel base assembly by MTPF,
Structural items by Punj Lloyd.

Major sub-assemblies indigenized in India are chassis manufactured by GCF,
Jabalpur from the micro alloy steel plates which were supplied by SAIL. The
outcome of the indigenasation is primarily in hydraulics which has indigenised from
20% to 100%, pneumatics from Zero to 100 % and Electrical/ Electronics from 46
sub assemblies to 112 sub assemblies.

Development Milestones: The milestones ranged from the mechanical upgrades
of in-service 39 to 45 calibre which was proof fired within four months, mechanical
and electronic upgrades of L/39 to L/45 gun which were validated for trials within
nine months. Building of the 1st and 2nd prototypes, conduct of several validation
firings within 15 months and finally, development of the 3rd prototype, PQSR trials
were done in 17 months. Now, three more prototypes manufactured and user trials
are in progress. Role/involvement of user in the development and manufacture
of Dhanush is a project monitoring model at four levels; Multi-Tiered Special
Project Management Group located at IHQ and GCF which is the Apex Board,
next is Weapon Design & Development Steering Committee followed by
Weapon Design & Development Committee and Weapon Design &
Development team and, finally Weapon Development & Execution Team
(WDET).

Charter for WDET: WDET worked as a single point referral and coordination agency with user for efficient execution and time bound activity including
anticipatory, actions by users, designers and manufacturing agencies. Weekly
monitoring of production and development of outsourced components and conduct
and coordinate testing/evaluation also was a part of their charter and, finally,
implementation of user, feedback into redesign/upgrading of components.
Conceptualization in maintenance/repair schedule and lifetime spare.

Role/Involvement of EME: 506 Army Base Workshops were permanent members
in WDET and part of the initial training to core team on gun assembly, testing of
hydraulic and gun systems, maintenance cover during trials and support in
indigenisation of sub assy.

Role/Involvement of DGQA & DRDO: DGQA provided support in proof testing,
proactive participation in development and design validation while DRDO was
involved in the areas of design validation, range tables and technical/design support.
The crucial takeaways from the project are the synergy between user, designer
and manufacturer, single window user interface, need for compressing trial
and evaluation times, flexible procurement provisions, and access to
specialized design validation and testing agencies.

titash
BRFite
Posts: 398
Joined: 26 Aug 2011 18:44

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby titash » 28 Apr 2015 21:48

Singha wrote:100 now and 400 later makes no sense if it cleared all trials unless army is suspicious of ofb build quality and wants to keep options still open!


Quoting pragnya below:

"To this end before we took two guns from Army. The first one was upgraded with the
45 calibre barrel and the complimentary components. The second one was
upgraded electronically and both these gun successfully proof fired at Balasore. The
success of these two gun systems helped us in taking the next step forward. At this
stage we were to decide whether to go in for 45 or 39 calibre gun systems. But
seeing the success of the upgraded 45 calibre gun, it was then concluded that we
should further proceed on the same path by developing 45 calibre gun systems only.
Both these guns developed had 45 to 65% of indigenisation components at
that stage."

It appears the Dhanush is an upgrade of the existing 155/39 Bofors guns to 155/45...since we bought only 400 odd guns, the Dhanush orders are only ~ 400

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4506
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby putnanja » 28 Apr 2015 22:07

titash wrote:
Singha wrote:100 now and 400 later makes no sense if it cleared all trials unless army is suspicious of ofb build quality and wants to keep options still open!


Quoting pragnya below:

"To this end before we took two guns from Army. The first one was upgraded with the
45 calibre barrel and the complimentary components. The second one was
upgraded electronically and both these gun successfully proof fired at Balasore. The
success of these two gun systems helped us in taking the next step forward. At this
stage we were to decide whether to go in for 45 or 39 calibre gun systems. But
seeing the success of the upgraded 45 calibre gun, it was then concluded that we
should further proceed on the same path by developing 45 calibre gun systems only.
Both these guns developed had 45 to 65% of indigenisation components at
that stage."

It appears the Dhanush is an upgrade of the existing 155/39 Bofors guns to 155/45...since we bought only 400 odd guns, the Dhanush orders are only ~ 400


You are reading it wrong. They tested out individual components(barrel etc) on existing Bofors gun from Army first to see how they work. Later on they built the full prototype. It is NOT a upgrade of existing bofors, but new guns that will be built. So they can order any numbers that they want

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2015 22:50

Guys read the entire report - its worth that.

PS credit for the file/s goes to dinesh_kumar and putnanja

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2397
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 28 Apr 2015 23:10

Is India Finally Getting Modern Artillery?
Yesterday, New Delhi announced that it has successfully tested an upgraded howitzer for use in the Indian Army. “The indigenously designed and manufactured 155mm x 45mm caliber artillery gun, Dhanush, has successfully met all technical parameters during the winter and summer trials,” a press release said.

This announcement came somewhat as a surprise since Dhanush howitzer prototypes suffered repeated barrel bursts during firing trials last August and during the winter of 2013, after which India’s state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) had to change the metallurgy of the canon.

India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar noted that the Dhanush incorporates many improved features in comparison to the guns which the Army possesses at present. The Dhanush is an improved version of the FH-77B 155 mm/39-caliber towed howitzer manufactured by the Swedish defense contractor Bofors (now BAE Systems) and of which India acquired 410 between 1987 and 1991.

The major upgrade of the howitzer is a larger caliber, 45mm compared to 39mm. Additionally, the Dhanush has a new maximum effective range of 38 km in salvo mode compared to the 39-calibre, 27-km range of the original guns, according to local media reports. The howitzer is capable of firing eight rounds per minutes and needs a crew of six to eight artillerymen.

The Economic Times notes that OFB and Indian Army officials are “quite excited” over the improved howitzer, which they claim performs “20-25 percent better” than the original Bofors gun with regard to “range, accuracy, consistency, low and high angle of fire and shoot-and-scoot ability.”

The Hindu claims that the howitzer is 80 percent indigenous with only “the APU (auxiliary power unit), electronic dial sights, and [a] few other small items being imported.” However, the modernization of the weapon system is still based on schematics supplied by Bofors/BAE Systems under a technology transfer agreement in the 1980s.

The Indian Army has already ordered 114 howitzers, which, given the successful trials, should enter mass production momentarily at the Gun Carriage Factory in Jabalpur district of Madhya Pradesh in central India. The Times of India reports that the army is readying itself for the induction of the first battery of six Dhanush guns this year. The army expects to receive a total number of 414 howitzers.

The initial procurement of the Bofors howitzers in the 1980s was steeped in controversy and led to India’s most infamous arms purchase scandal in recent history, which torpedoed all artillery modernization plans. As a consequence, no new artillery has been purchased by the Indian Army ever since, while various other tenders (e.g., for 180 pieces of 155mm/52-caliber wheeled self-propelled guns) also had to be cancelled due to various allegations of corruption.

“India’s two towed howitzer competitions, and its two self-propelled artillery procurements, have mostly served as cautionary tales. If the stakes weren’t so high, they’d qualify as farce,” Defense Industry Daily said back in November 2014, summarizing India’s recent botched artillery procurement history.

It still remains unclear whether the Dhanush gun genuinely fulfills all service requirements, according to Defense News. However, “[t]he Army is desperate to acquire the weapon as it has not been able to buy a single howitzer since 1987, despite a 1999 long-term plan to convert all existing artillery guns to 155mm/52 caliber at a cost of more than $6 billion,” Defense News emphasizes.

The Indian army’s 1999 Field Artillery Rationalization Plan aimed to acquire 2,800-3,000 155 mm/52-calibre guns of all kinds and 155 mm/39-calibre lightweight howitzers by 2027. At the moment the military has merely around 200 guns in service, despite the known utility of artillery as illustrated by the 1999 Kargil War.


hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby hanumadu » 29 Apr 2015 05:13

Now that orders are confirmed, the technology for Dhanush could be auctioned to two private defence manufacturing companies so there is competition. The team that developed the Dhanush could be split up into two and given to the winning bidders. That way they will have a steady revenue stream along with a research team for further development. Perhaps, its not that simple, but we must kick start defence privatization at some point.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2015 08:08

with a planned holding of 3000 155mm guns , I do not see a religious need to produce the same design. any other design like the GC45 will also work fine.
we do not want to spend 5 yrs working out how tech will be shared between OFB and another pvt party, with OFB trying tooth and nail to reduce the number being outsourced.

there is no doubt the fh77b was a brilliant design and is still a sound design today but the gc45 design was not slouch either and went on into the famous G5 family.

we can live with two tomcats in the tent.

hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby hanumadu » 29 Apr 2015 08:33

^^There will no orders for OFB, just the private companies. Transfer the design and the key R&D personnel so further development can continue. The process of acquiring other kinds of guns will continue as usual with all interested companies in the fray.

All technologies that were developed by the govt. research agencies that have assured orders and are profitable should slowly be transferred to private entities along with the key personnel.

Another and slower approach could be DRDO research taking a back seat where ever private companies are competent and slowly limiting its own involvement to a few key areas.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pragnya » 29 Apr 2015 09:31

hanumadu wrote:^^There will no orders for OFB, just the private companies. Transfer the design and the key R&D personnel so further development can continue. The process of acquiring other kinds of guns will continue as usual with all interested companies in the fray.


transfer the key R&D personnel from OFB to the pvt company!!! what will OFB do there after when they are planning 52 cal dhanush? create new bunch of 'key' R&D personnel who will scratch their heads, twiddle their thumbs before they figure out the existing status and then plan the future? all this time time zipping past...

R&D to design to productionisation is long and torturous journey. just read the Dhanush history posted few posts above. retaining talent is vital for any organistaion pvt or public to grow and you are asking the 'key' people to be gifted away to the another organisation!!

OFB is a production agency and it is 'revealing' they took up the R&D challenge for a change, did lot of hadwork in close coordination with users and others both pvt/public and proved themselves. between building prototypes, doing trials, fixing issues they may have learnt many things esp wrt production which would be hard for a non participant and so they have a head start when it comes to prod. considering the order is 100 odd now and about 300 later, i am not sure if a pvt company will make a huge investment in terms of capital cost/assembly line/jigs/tools/training personnel/qc etc..(note - OFB already has the infra to productionise without all this) besides the delay/cost etc..

unless the order is much bigger and the timeline of prod does not suit the requirement, this won't happen IMO.

All technologies that were developed by the govt. research agencies that have assured orders and are profitable should slowly be transferred to private entities along with the key personnel.


DRDO has been involving the pvt sector for a long time now. L&T, Godrej, Tatas along with many other smaller SMEs have been part of many ventures. even the DRDO howitzer, there is big pvt setor involvement.

as to the bolded, if you transfer 'key' personnel how do you expect DRDO or any agency to R&D a new project, trial it and pass it on to the Pvt or Public for prod?

Another and slower approach could be DRDO research taking a back seat where ever private companies are competent and slowly limiting its own involvement to a few key areas.


per ex chief of DRDO is open to PVT sector taking R&D challenges too but the pvt sector has been loathe to R&D as it involves massive infusion of funds, long gestation, failures etc.. they simply have no appetite for that. they are happy to be prod agencies provided numbers are committed to make it profitable - which by itself is not a bad idea IMO. remenber AVRO programme? none came forward for a 56 number order.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2015 09:33

OFB is the only game in town as production agency for a host of items including anything explosive.
so they are going to produce arty also, whether all of it or some is the only doubt.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9805
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2015 17:09

Apologies if this has been posted before. A video on the Dhanush Gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9O_xtG8Po

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 29 Apr 2015 17:41

VinodTK wrote:Is India Finally Getting Modern Artillery?
[quote>>]This announcement came somewhat as a surprise since Dhanush howitzer prototypes suffered repeated barrel bursts during firing trials last August and during the winter of 2013, after which India’s state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) had to change the metallurgy of the canon.[<</quote]
If someone wants to show the author some love ....

As per the latest reports
1. There was one failure and not repeated failures.
2. Not relate to the barrel but to the ammo.
3. If the barrel had no issue why would the metallurgy be changed? Of course I cannot prove it otherwise.

By emphasizing the barrel bursts while omitting the actual cause folks are trying to discredit the gun. With the Indian Army backing the gun it will gain credibility and has export potential.

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 29 Apr 2015 22:09

The Dhanush future upgrade to a 52cal could be more easier than anticipated....

The 45cal Dhanush already sports a NATO standard 23 Litre chamber. Thus, with minimal course correction OFB could technically churn out the larger calibre gun in a much shorter a time span.

Also by the JSF style faarmulah...if ordered for like the entire 1600 odd units price should drop considerably...The last thing we need is to fall for ARDE Super X-Gun 60Km range mumbo jumbo.....

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2015 22:27

The ARDE gun is already in prototyping. It would be singularly unwise to stop it based on prior history where AHQ tends to ask for the latest and best after endless trials of basic stuff.

RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5180
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 29 Apr 2015 22:40

We have a requirement for guns NOW.

Dhanush needs a massive order. It's better than anything we currently have and can be made mostly in house.

We shouldn't just keep phasing out gun induction because of a new standard.

Orders should be made in bulk and the product should evolve in batches.

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 29 Apr 2015 22:55

OFB Magazine "Ayudh" link has good pic of Ghatak / various Arty items built in OF Kanpur. Strictly for the Arty buffs....
http://ofbindia.gov.in/download/pr/december2014.pdf

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 30 Apr 2015 05:14

From the Dhanush article, one can imply that remaining 155mm 39 caliber Bofors (200 odd units) would also be upgraded to the new 155mm 45 caliber standard. This would be on top of new orders (total of around 400 guns).

When OFB Bofors 155mm 52 caliber initiative bears fruit (another decade or so), Dhanush could be upgraded to that standard.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 30 Apr 2015 06:13

Karan M wrote:The ARDE gun is already in prototyping. It would be singularly unwise to stop it based on prior history where AHQ tends to ask for the latest and best after endless trials of basic stuff.


Yes all such projects need to be funded. Do not have all eggs in one basket

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Apr 2015 06:54

As per Saurav Jha OFB is already developing a 52 caliber Dhanush.

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 30 Apr 2015 07:09

Karan M wrote:The ARDE gun is already in prototyping. It would be singularly unwise to stop it based on prior history where AHQ tends to ask for the latest and best after endless trials of basic stuff.


Lol...Possibly, but this time they donot have a way to wriggle out.

In all honesty, the Arty Dte has had a close partnership to get the gun going....They will accept the gun with a prayer on their lips.

For the 85 odd 155mm Towed Regiments would augment a capability to persecute targets across the board we have never had.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pragnya » 30 Apr 2015 07:44

srai wrote:From the Dhanush article, one can imply that remaining 155mm 39 caliber Bofors (200 odd units) would also be upgraded to the new 155mm 45 caliber standard. This would be on top of new orders (total of around 400 guns).


that would be most logical and sensible.

When OFB Bofors 155mm 52 caliber initiative bears fruit (another decade or so), Dhanush could be upgraded to that standard.


Thakur_B wrote:As per Saurav Jha OFB is already developing a 52 caliber Dhanush.


is this the same gun the DRDO is planning? possible if you read this -

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the process of developing the advanced towed arty Gun, 155mm, 52 calibre with advanced technology. “The prototype will be ready in three years by 2016, user trials will finish by 2018 Production post this by OFB,” Sundaresh, former Director of Combat Vehicles Research and Development Organisation (CVRDE)


just for the record, OFB along with many pvt sector companies were part of the DRDO effort.

“We will be making the Mark-1 gun with new ammunition within three years. We have formed work packages for the Ordnance factories and private industry through a transparent tendering system. We have been receiving an overwhelming response from the private sector,” the ARDE director said.


http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... lery%20gun

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 30 Apr 2015 22:19

dinesh_kumar wrote:OFB Magazine "Ayudh" link has good pic of Ghatak / various Arty items built in OF Kanpur. Strictly for the Arty buffs....
http://ofbindia.gov.in/download/pr/december2014.pdf


It seems OFB is also developing a new light 7.62x51mm LMG. Hope to soon see its pics. Also there seems to be uncanny silence about MCIWS assault rifle.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 01 May 2015 05:07

Tata Power, L&T to supply mobile artillery system to the Army; contract yet to get defence ministry approval.

The army is set to get an artillery boost with a proposal being moved to raise six new regiments of the indigenous Pinaka Multi­Launcher Rocket System (MLRS), a formidable system designed to annihilate enemy targets with a blanket of precisely guided rockets.

Tata Power and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) will get a major share of the Rs 1,950­crore contract that is to be approved by the defence ministry as they are the primary manufacturers of the mobile artillery system, along with state­run Bharat Earth Movers ( BEML).

Sources said the army has moved a proposal to add six new regiments — with a total of 108 launchers — to its existing holding of three regiments to plug gaps in its artillery arm. The proposal is to process it as a repeat order under the buy Indian category with an initial allotment of Rs 1,950 crore.

The value of the contract could however go up, sources said. Impressed by the capabilities of the MLRS — the system is capable of flattening a 3.9 sq km area at a range of 40 km in less than a minute — the defence ministry is also moving ahead to increase the capacity of the Ordnance Factory Board to produce the rockets in India.

From the existing capacity of 1,000 rockets a year, the government has sanctioned an increase to 5,000 rockets annually, in a project that would costRs 1,388 crore. In addition, Defence Research and Development Organisation is also working at increasing the range of the system from the present 40 km to 60 km by making improvements in the rockets. Field trials for this new, improved Pinaka II rocket are expected to start shortly.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 01 May 2015 07:45

Gyan wrote:
dinesh_kumar wrote:OFB Magazine "Ayudh" link has good pic of Ghatak / various Arty items built in OF Kanpur. Strictly for the Arty buffs....
http://ofbindia.gov.in/download/pr/december2014.pdf


It seems OFB is also developing a new light 7.62x51mm LMG. Hope to soon see its pics. Also there seems to be uncanny silence about MCIWS assault rifle.


It says right after LMG, multi caliber rifle :) There's plenty of stuff wrong with MCIWS as of now, biggest of them being the 45 degree gas port.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 01 May 2015 08:01

pragnya wrote:...

Thakur_B wrote:As per Saurav Jha OFB is already developing a 52 caliber Dhanush.


is this the same gun the DRDO is planning? possible if you read this -

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the process of developing the advanced towed arty Gun, 155mm, 52 calibre with advanced technology. “The prototype will be ready in three years by 2016, user trials will finish by 2018 Production post this by OFB,” Sundaresh, former Director of Combat Vehicles Research and Development Organisation (CVRDE)


just for the record, OFB along with many pvt sector companies were part of the DRDO effort.

“We will be making the Mark-1 gun with new ammunition within three years. We have formed work packages for the Ordnance factories and private industry through a transparent tendering system. We have been receiving an overwhelming response from the private sector,” the ARDE director said.


http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... lery%20gun


You are most probably right! It makes sense to base the new 155mm 52 calibre on upgraded Bofors/Dhanush design, which is already 80% indigenized by OFB in over 25-years of R&D on it. That would explain how Mk.1 version could be ready within three years.

Hobbes
BRFite
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Hobbes » 02 May 2015 09:05

Saurav Jha tweets about the Pinaka II being tested at Balsore. He confirms a range of 60 km. Tweet at https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/594053028438638592.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 20h20 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
ARDE's Pinaka MK-II rocket being tested at Balasore. Has a max range of just over 60 kms. Courtesy @DRDO_India

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 May 2015 04:37

Hobbes wrote:Saurav Jha tweets about the Pinaka II being tested at Balsore. He confirms a range of 60 km. Tweet at https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/594053028438638592.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 20h20 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
ARDE's Pinaka MK-II rocket being tested at Balasore. Has a max range of just over 60 kms. Courtesy @DRDO_India


The range can be up to 66-67 kilometers under favourable conditions. Check the graph at the bottom.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_5Fqc5MZe4o/UOqP4NLzqbI/AAAAAAAADFk/cfc2tQT5g1Q/s1600/Pinaka+2+MBRL-1.JPG

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vasu raya » 04 May 2015 02:23

Hopefully next on the roadmap is something like this for Pinaka,

Image

Ground-launched SDB
Boeing is modifying the Small Diameter Bomb with a rocket motor to be launched from ground-based missile systems such as the M270 MLRS. With the Army demilitarizing cluster munitions from M26 rockets, the company says a special adapter case could reuse the rocket to launch the SDB. After the motor launches it to a high enough altitude and speed, the wings will deploy and glide the bomb to its target. The company believes it can fill a gap for long-range precision fires while using its smaller warhead to save larger rocket munitions for strategic targets. While typical MLRS systems follow a ballistic trajectory, the rocket-launched SDB can be launched to an altitude and glide on a selected trajectory.[29][30] Boeing and Saab Group conducted three successful GLSDB tests in February 2015. The system is cost-effective, utilizing an existing weapon paired with a stockpiled rocket motor, while maintaining the loadout on a rocket artillery system. Unlike other artillery weapons, the GLSDB offers 360-degree coverage for high and low angles of attack, flying around terrain to hit targets on the back of mountains, or circling back around to a target behind the launch vehicle. The GLSDB has a range of 150 km (93 mi), and can also hit targets 70 km (43 mi) behind it.[31]

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21177
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 04 May 2015 05:32

Imagine launching sensor fused skeets/ weapons using long range artillery/ MRLs. Few hundreds fired across Wagha/ Rajasthan will make 72 making factories over loaded.


srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 06 May 2015 13:51



...
The Dhanush, however, will plug just a small operational gap. The overall artillery modernisation plan for 155mm/52-calibre guns, worth around Rs 1 lakh crore, envisages the induction of 814 mounted, 1,580 towed, 180 wheeled and 100 tracked guns, among others.


So the 814 mounted option will be different than the 180 wheeled? It sounds like wheeled version will be similar to tracked version's turret.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 06 May 2015 14:06

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · May 3

Let's see how the C-17 'global sustainment' program turns out. We'll soon also know from CAG just how much the Air force will pay for that.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · May 3

Why? Zimple, that particular radar is no longer in production and nobody for the love of the ****** will give you spares for only 12 radars.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · May 3

To remind people about serviceability, the ANTPQ-37 WLRs ordered by the Army from America are currently inoperational on account of spares.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3994
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby hnair » 06 May 2015 15:55

:oops: teething troubles are causing lack of teeth

kvraghavaiah
BRFite
Posts: 126
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 17:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kvraghavaiah » 06 May 2015 20:54

vasu raya wrote:Hopefully next on the roadmap is something like this for Pinaka,

Image

Ground-launched SDB
Boeing is modifying the Small Diameter Bomb with a rocket motor to be launched from ground-based missile systems such as the M270 MLRS. With the Army demilitarizing cluster munitions from M26 rockets, the company says a special adapter case could reuse the rocket to launch the SDB. After the motor launches it to a high enough altitude and speed, the wings will deploy and glide the bomb to its target. The company believes it can fill a gap for long-range precision fires while using its smaller warhead to save larger rocket munitions for strategic targets. While typical MLRS systems follow a ballistic trajectory, the rocket-launched SDB can be launched to an altitude and glide on a selected trajectory.[29][30] Boeing and Saab Group conducted three successful GLSDB tests in February 2015. The system is cost-effective, utilizing an existing weapon paired with a stockpiled rocket motor, while maintaining the loadout on a rocket artillery system. Unlike other artillery weapons, the GLSDB offers 360-degree coverage for high and low angles of attack, flying around terrain to hit targets on the back of mountains, or circling back around to a target behind the launch vehicle. The GLSDB has a range of 150 km (93 mi), and can also hit targets 70 km (43 mi) behind it.[31]

I do not think that DRDO scientists have as much foresight and desire as we have. I was talking to some DRDO scientits a few years back - A scientist working on Agni project does not know that cruise missiles fly using turbofan engines. Pathetic temper in DRDO.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2015 21:54

And some IAF officers in Bison squadrons don't know Jaguar has Elta radar or Griffin LGB. Clearly, they dont have as much foresight and desire as you and all of the armchair generals on BRF and should be replaced en masse. Seriously, as long as the Agni guy gets his particular job done, nobody gives a darn whether he knows or doesn't know what Janes or BRF says.


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests