Artillery: News & Discussion

Indranil
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 16 Dec 2016 03:44

I am fairly certain I saw this picture earlier too :D

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Dec 2016 08:18


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Dec 2016 10:39

A Mufler for Large guns, hope they do a better job than letting too much sound from Kejriwal's mouth.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 16 Dec 2016 12:14

Yes. It was on the US military thread.

It came up when a poster mentioned that the US army/marines were experimenting with having an entire squad equipped with sound suppressors, apparently so that the audio commands/vocal communication between the squad could be heard better.... and someone ( :wink: ) tongue-firmly-in-cheek asked whether something similar was being done for the poor artillery blokes who for long have been the worst sufferers...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 16 Dec 2016 14:01

German invention, methinks. Also the black and white German army cross on turret. I suppose it's used just for testing purposes, wouldn't expect it to be very useful in a battlefield.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Dec 2016 14:06

yes its just a test rig for the panzerhaubitze 2000 -perhaps camps and other populated areas are close by. artillery firing at close range really exerts a thump on the chest.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 16 Dec 2016 16:37

Surya wrote:the sensible thing would be to finish the plains\desert trials and start initial production and deal with mountain \cold etc later. the faster we get moving the more comfortable I feel ... all this trials make me nervous


Surya, the Dhanush induction has been a completely new paradigm for induction of a weapon system as far as IA is concerned. IA worked very closely with the developer to ensure quick feedback and rectification.

First three guns from user trials were inducted into an artillery regiment for this purpose - this was followed by induction of first three guns from production line. All six guns are being used by a designated artillery regiment.

All this happened because of successive DG Artillery backed by COAS going all out to get the gun inducted. Only the production quality at OFB remains to be seen.

Rest assured, I feel we've turned a corner in Artillery across the entire spectrum like Radars.

Dhanush, Dhanush-2, ATAGS (which IMO will become excellent template for DRDO+private sector partnership), Pinaka, Pinaka-2, Prahaar, Brahmos. The whole gamut is going to be home grown.

Hope we scrap the Mounted Gun System (MGS) tender and adapt Dhanush for the role; an ATAGS based MGS can follow later.

Now to get the production of ammunition in place.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 16 Dec 2016 18:17

jamwal wrote:German invention, methinks. Also the black and white German army cross on turret. I suppose it's used just for testing purposes, wouldn't expect it to be very useful in a battlefield.

Singha's explanatory link says that it is for testing ranges so that sound does not carry too far.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Dec 2016 21:44

looking at footage of M777 and Caesar howitzers being fired from camp qayarrah into Mosul, the amt of dust kicked up is terrible and surely a health hazard to the crewmen unless they wear some pro level masks and eye gear apart from usual ear mufflers.

not sure anything can be done about it.



one cheap desi solution implemented daily near my apartment is have a tractor dragging a water tank and spraying water along the dusty road. so there spray it around the firing position.

"deep thinkers" might want to use some electrostatic charging system like in industrial smokestacks to precipitate the dust onto the soil

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 16 Dec 2016 23:56

Aditya G wrote:Image


Excellent, new carriage. This will have better cross country mobility than the FH77B.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 17 Dec 2016 03:11


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 18 Dec 2016 08:52

Any news about the testing of the Kalyani 155mm/52cal gun? While the ATAGS will take several years before it is ready for production, the Kalyani gun, even if not as advanced as the ATAGS, is ready for production today.

Our military procurent always makes the best the enemy of 'good enough'. :(

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 18 Dec 2016 09:12

The last I heard, it was waiting for permission to be tested at the Mahajan range.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2016 09:48

Kakkaji wrote:Our military procurent always makes the best the enemy of 'good enough'. :(

Unfortunately we Indians have various "levels" of criticism for anything that is done in India

When "good enough" is accepted, the next level of criticism is
Look at what Pakistan is doing - why can't we do it
Look at what china is doing - why can't we do it


Comments of both these categories have been made on this forum in the last few days, but comments on any other site -such as IDRW reveal exactly the same sentiments

We Indians are such hard task masters on ourselves that our only hope of perfection lies in doing something that no one else can see - like intense tapas and claiming "I have seen Brahman" and have attained the absolute. No one can criticize you then


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 18 Dec 2016 14:40

Fusion of BOFORS & BHARAT52 :twisted: i wonder where TATA PLAY MGS? G5 experience

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 18 Dec 2016 16:53

It appears that the Arty is finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

I hope that it doesn't turn out to be light of an incoming train.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ragupta » 18 Dec 2016 17:20

shiv wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Our military procurent always makes the best the enemy of 'good enough'. :(

Unfortunately we Indians have various "levels" of criticism for anything that is done in India

When "good enough" is accepted, the next level of criticism is
Look at what Pakistan is doing - why can't we do it
Look at what china is doing - why can't we do it


Comments of both these categories have been made on this forum in the last few days, but comments on any other site -such as IDRW reveal exactly the same sentiments

We Indians are such hard task masters on ourselves that our only hope of perfection lies in doing something that no one else can see - like intense tapas and claiming "I have seen Brahman" and have attained the absolute. No one can criticize you then


"Pursuit of perfection" is good, but being upset for not being one is going to make you unhappy and unsatisfied.
Look at the people from the company this tag line is, they strive for perfection, work very hard, have acheived a lot, once of the top economy in the world, envy of the world, but unhappy lot, because everyone is looking for perfection (Wife from Husband, husband from wife, Managers from employee, people from products). That make then overworked, unhappy, depressed, and suicidal.

Better to follow Gita aka Work life balance to keep yourself happy.
Jyada khana or Kum Khana ya Jyada chahna or Kum chahna, will make you unhappy and unsatisfied.
So a point of 80-90 achievement is good, then set the rest for next phase, that is how successfull enterprise have proceeded.
Our Armed forces sought perfection in first go (LCA, ARJUN, AWACS etc) even after achieving a lot, they are unhappy and unsatisfied with indigenous products. In the hope of getting better they import based on brochure, and we all know what they get from it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 Dec 2016 17:28

I see from pix that ATAGS apart from having high angle fire (haubitze) also has low elevation D-30 type direct fire (field gun). I read it has a thermal imager also.

hopefully IA will not put in a req that it needs a FCS to hit on the move targets like a tank can do. its direct fire mode I see as a emergency if position is about to overrun or if its on a hill and needs to fire down at targets below.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 19 Dec 2016 01:09

Is the weight 12 tonnes as DRDO promised ? Else IA will again use it as an excuse to buy some foreign crap. Anyway a good beginning for Arty. Needed these 155mm and Pinakas like yesterday. Hopefully the same gun can be used for Mounted and Wheeled SPG's. I guess on to Pinaka-II and Prahaar after this.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Avinandan » 19 Dec 2016 04:00

Singha wrote:I see from pix that ATAGS apart from having high angle fire (haubitze) also has low elevation D-30 type direct fire (field gun). I read it has a thermal imager also.

hopefully IA will not put in a req that it needs a FCS to hit on the move targets like a tank can do. its direct fire mode I see as a emergency if position is about to overrun or if its on a hill and needs to fire down at targets below.


Singha Saar, I suspect they will ask for Bofor's like ammo crane. IMHO they are quite useful for sustained firing.

Additionally, please advise on the demerits of Bharat-52, Turkish Panter design?
One thing to this Abdul's eyes is the inability to rotate in its axis quickly like the Bofors design does.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Dec 2016 07:22

Has there been any clarity on ATAGS chamber volume, 23 or 25 litres? The latter would be a better scenario.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2016 08:18

ragupta wrote:
shiv wrote:We Indians are such hard task masters on ourselves that our only hope of perfection lies in doing something that no one else can see - like intense tapas and claiming "I have seen Brahman" and have attained the absolute. No one can criticize you then


"Pursuit of perfection" is good, but being upset for not being one is going to make you unhappy and unsatisfied.
Look at the people from the company this tag line is, they strive for perfection, work very hard, have acheived a lot, once of the top economy in the world, envy of the world, but unhappy lot, because everyone is looking for perfection (Wife from Husband, husband from wife, Managers from employee, people from products). That make then overworked, unhappy, depressed, and suicidal.

Better to follow Gita aka Work life balance to keep yourself happy.
Jyada khana or Kum Khana ya Jyada chahna or Kum chahna, will make you unhappy and unsatisfied.
So a point of 80-90 achievement is good, then set the rest for next phase, that is how successfull enterprise have proceeded.
Our Armed forces sought perfection in first go (LCA, ARJUN, AWACS etc) even after achieving a lot, they are unhappy and unsatisfied with indigenous products. In the hope of getting better they import based on brochure, and we all know what they get from it.

I have no dispute with your post - but I only want to point out that we have so much philosophy, but no pride in what we do because nothing that we do is considered perfect. The act of "doing" gets nothing, only perfection is sought.

Positivity has a dynamic of its own. I have seen the way some people of HAL/DRDO on the one hand and IAF on the other hand don't give a rats ass for each other. The IAF saw HAL as incompetent and uncaring, and HAL saw IAF as plane drivers. yes I do exaggerate - but the more Indians excoriate our own people the more it adds to the mass of perception that we are all bad. This has been an ongoing process from colonial days. I recall - from 5th std - many decades ago for me a classmate of mine called Paul Menon who told me, at the age of 10 that "Indians are lazy. I am going to migrate to Australia"

Excellence and morale are interlinked, and morale is linked to positivity. As a nation we are so negative about ourselves that we have sunk into a deep pit where there is nothing positive that does not have a dozen negative responses. Indians shine outside India because they get an instant morale and self confidence boost - not because they belong to some special smart caste. Sorry to digress.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 19 Dec 2016 09:02

Singha wrote:I see from pix that ATAGS apart from having high angle fire (haubitze) also has low elevation D-30 type direct fire (field gun). I read it has a thermal imager also.

hopefully IA will not put in a req that it needs a FCS to hit on the move targets like a tank can do. its direct fire mode I see as a emergency if position is about to overrun or if its on a hill and needs to fire down at targets below.


Pistol mode is essential for giving thappad to Pakis on the border during peace time.

What is the use-case for a thermal imager?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Dec 2016 09:07

Am I the only one who is seeing the G5 lineage in the carriage. The gun seems to be some thing else entirely.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2016 09:37

Singha wrote:hopefully IA will not put in a req that it needs a FCS to hit on the move targets like a tank can do. its direct fire mode I see as a emergency if position is about to overrun or if its on a hill and needs to fire down at targets below.

The moving target requirement is met by tanks, not artillery

Positions about to be overrun require heavy and high rate of fire at ranges of less than 1 km where terrain is a problem. Artillery is generally unsuitable for that - unless Tipu Sultan type muzzle loaders are used. But AAA like Bofors L-70 will work
Last edited by shiv on 19 Dec 2016 09:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 19 Dec 2016 09:41

Pratyush wrote:Am I the only one who is seeing the G5 lineage in the carriage. The gun seems to be some thing else entirely.


On the contrary, G5 derives its lineage from Austrian GC-45 designed by Gerard Bull - the same gun whose manufacturing/production set-up and everything else was scooped by Kalyani.

Gerard Bull worked with South Africans (Denel) on the artillery bit quite extensively - the mobile mounting was designed by Denel for the gun designed by Bull. G5 is further evolution of Gerard Bull's design by Denel.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 19 Dec 2016 11:23

Actually in our scenario firing in low elevation is a key requirement especially in mountains. We extracted price from pakis on LoC as recently as this year when firing I pistol mode.

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:hopefully IA will not put in a req that it needs a FCS to hit on the move targets like a tank can do. its direct fire mode I see as a emergency if position is about to overrun or if its on a hill and needs to fire down at targets below.

The moving target requirement is met by tanks, not artillery

Positions about to be overrun require heavy and high rate of fire at ranges of less than 1 km where terrain is a problem. Artillery is generally unsuitable for that - unless Tipu Sultan type muzzle loaders are used. But AAA like Bofors L-70 will work

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Dec 2016 11:49

GOI can give the design etc to Tatas L&T and Baba and allow them to make the same system in three assembly lines to that the required systems can be produced faster and all the available infrastructure is put to use.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Dec 2016 12:48

Rohit. I said carriage and not the whole gun system.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 19 Dec 2016 12:54

Yagnasri wrote:GOI can give the design etc to Tatas L&T and Baba and allow them to make the same system in three assembly lines to that the required systems can be produced faster and all the available infrastructure is put to use.


That is what is actually happening - DRDO is working with both Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED. Barrel is being designed by DRDO/OFB. Once the final design is ready and up for production, expect both the groups to get production contracts. That is why we don't hear of BHARAT-52 gun which BF was proposing earlier.

Pinaka production is a template for this - of the two regiments inducted initially, one each was produced by L&T and TATA Power SED. The renewed order for Pinaka is likely to continue along these lines. Army is pretty happy with this kind of set-up.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 19 Dec 2016 13:05

Pratyush wrote:Rohit. I said carriage and not the whole gun system.


The BHARAT-52 gun proposed by BF had somewhat similar layout. But closer inspection shows this layout is indeed very similar to two guns - DENEL G5 and Soltam ATHOS-2052.

1. GHN-45 - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Lm4T8tKdaBA/maxresdefault.jpg

2. ATHOS-2052: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O9WDri5uCvI/T9j6xLcfi3I/AAAAAAAABYo/-KI9OBO7RM0/s1600/ATHOS-2052.jpg

3. Denel G5-52: http://www.army-guide.com/images/p0567818.jpg

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2016 13:20

thermal imager is for night firing/dust/rain etc where visibility is poor. another tidbit is the syrians are using the new thermal imagers on their T72 tanks (25% changed so far) to locate and take out rebel snipers...in the daytime. the heat and muzzle flash of a gun registers loud and clear.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 19 Dec 2016 13:49

I remember to have seen a work package for dynamic stabilization system of ATAGS coming our way circa 2011. It was not our area of expertise so we let it pass. But good to see ATAGS coming up now. Hope trials would be swift and induction will start in 2yrs in good numbers. We should not be buying any 155mm Artillery system anymore after M777. Just churn out Dhanush/ATAGS based artillery in various forms like towed, mounted, tracked etc as per requirement and line them up on Western border in 000s.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2016 16:00

Can someone explain to me the need for a Thermal imager or a dynamic stabilization system for an artillery piece that is expected to sit in one place hit targets 30-40 km away way way out of line of sight.

Note that a parabolic path that takes a shell to a distance of 40 km may be at least 60 km long and at a muzzle velocity of 800 meters per sec it will take the shell several minutes to reach the target so hitting a moving target is not what it is meant for. Hitting a moving target would require tracking of the target by UAV/aircraft PLUS terminal guidance of a normally dumb artillery shell.

Thermal imagers would not be useful except within line of sight. From the ground - in mountainous terrain that maye be s little as a few hundred meters up to a few km. 40 km is unlikely

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ragupta » 19 Dec 2016 16:07

shiv wrote:...
Excellence and morale are interlinked, and morale is linked to positivity. As a nation we are so negative about ourselves that we have sunk into a deep pit where there is nothing positive that does not have a dozen negative responses. Indians shine outside India because they get an instant morale and self confidence boost - not because they belong to some special smart caste. Sorry to digress.


Agree. I am hopeful things are changing for better, right set of people governing the country. the new generation are full of energy and they will bring in the change we desire, and I wil die a peacful, happy and satisfied man. In the meantime, will continue with good karma to push in that way...

by the way I have admired your thoughts for all these years... since I joined BR late 90s.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Mihir » 19 Dec 2016 22:50

Singha wrote:I see from pix that ATAGS apart from having high angle fire (haubitze) also has low elevation D-30 type direct fire (field gun). I read it has a thermal imager also.

hopefully IA will not put in a req that it needs a FCS to hit on the move targets like a tank can do. its direct fire mode I see as a emergency if position is about to overrun or if its on a hill and needs to fire down at targets below.

All modern howitzers are capable of firing at low angles. The FH-77, Dhanush, ATAGS can all do it.

Indian arty crew are trained fire over open sights. There's no FCS to track and hit moving targets, but they could hit tanks in a pinch. A 155mm HE shell hitting the hull or turret would pulverise the crew.
Last edited by Mihir on 19 Dec 2016 23:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 19 Dec 2016 23:07

Any chance the Kalyani's 105mm mounted gun (that reportedly weighs 900 kg) will be accepted by BSF atleast? It would be a great addition and will help pulverize the pakis without escalating to the army level.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 19 Dec 2016 23:37

I feel so happy about the arty now. We are spoilt for so many indigenous choices. There are so many backups. Bravo! I am sure the same is going to happen with FICVs. Now onto tanks and aircrafts please.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 20 Dec 2016 00:22

Aiyo wait a little bit more

lets see a 100 dhanush and few dozen ATAGS


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