Artillery: News & Discussion

ashishvikas
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 13 Jan 2017 14:36

Does TATA/AL have capability to make tucks which can replace TATRA trucks of future Regiments ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Jan 2017 15:46

Pratyush wrote:How is targeting information passed on to the rocket. Is the rocket compatible with existing launcher.


It is the launcher which is equipped with an INS system and likely being cued by the Battery CP tied into the Artillery Combat Command and Control System (ACCCS). The rockets iirc have an trajectory correction system.

Sagem (Safran group) has completed delivery of its Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing systems to the first two regiments in the Indian army deploying the Pinaka multiple launch rocket system (MLRS). Developed and produced by Sagem, the Sigma 30 is a laser gyro land navigation and pointing system for artillery pieces, enabling highly accurate firing on short notice.

Sagem has also set up a maintenance shop near New Delhi to help the Indian army keep its Sigma 30 systems in fighting trim. Indian mechanics received specialized training for this system in both France and India.

The Sigma 30 pointing system has been proven in combat on a Caesar 155 mm gun. It is also used with NATO's Mars MLRS and the 2R2M 120 mm mobile mortar, within the scope of a modernization program. In addition, the Sigma 30 has been qualified on the Archer, Donar, PZH 2000 and FH 77 B05 155 mm guns.

Designed for time sensitive missions in the most constrained operational environments (jammed, spoofed or denied GPS), the Sigma 30 family provides:
• A full range of pointing accuracies from 4 mils to 0.4 mils to meet all system requirements
• Static gyrocompass in less than 2 minutes
• On-the-move alignment
• Autonomous navigation without GPS
• Shoot and Scoot capability
• MRSI capability



Artillery Combat Command and Control System
Shakti is a main sub-system of Tactical Command Control & Communication Intelligence (Tac C3I) system being deployed by the Army. The components that go into Shakti are enhanced tactical computer, handheld computer, gun display unit, all of which are interconnected through tactical radio network, land lines or fibre optic cable, an official statement said.

Presently, the artillery operations in the Army are being carried out manually. Shakti system makes use of software with GIS and GPS functionalities to integrate and automate all artillery operational functions.

The major functions of Shakti are: technical fire control (trajectory computation), tactical fire control (processing of fire requests and ammunition management), deployment management (suggesting deployment areas for guns and observation posts for defensive and offensive operations), operational logistics (timely provisioning of ammunition and logistic support) and fire planning (generation of fire plans, task tables and automatic generation of gun programmes).

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 13 Jan 2017 17:49

so what does S30 accomplish and how?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Jan 2017 20:19

Land navigation systems are inertial systems primarily based on laser ring gyros or fiber optic ones fused with motion sensors. They provide the ability to conduct navigation without the need for GPS receivers or when signals are getting jammed. That information can be inlaid over existing digital GIS maps and report own position. The same information relayed over data networks can enable rudimentary blue force tracking.

Nowadays carried by all mechanised forces and even logistic units in western armies. More accurate variants are used by artillery guns to not only conduct basic navigation but also pre survey of possible firing locations by the unit GPO (Gun Position Officer) and automatic laying of guns and MBRL's.

Artillery guns and rocket launcher systems have recently witnessed a quantum enhancement of their capability of accurate firing. This has been made possible by accurate navigation systems on the modern 155mm guns, which allows artillery to manoeuvre from forward concentration areas/hides to pre-determined gun positions without the conventional ’gun convoys’. Accurate navigation and laying of guns is also possible on dark nights and during the most adverse weather condition of fog or low visibility, and at the same speed and accuracy as in daylight.

Gun/rocket batteries would no longer require survey. Modern technology has so revolutionised artillery manoeuvre that each gun has the ability to be independent and deployed in an autonomous mode. This is extremely important especially in a high intensity air or counter fire threat by surface means. The move and deployment is also possible without the global positioning system (GPS), which may be frequently jammed in battle. All the above capabilities are possible due to accurate navigation capabilities which are onboard modern 155mm guns.

Artillery philosophy lays emphasis on destruction rather than neutralisation, and hence the importance of accuracy of delivery means. With improved pointing systems, guns are able to align on the targets and bring down accurate and consistent fire quickly. Such navigation and pointing/alignment systems also have the ability to align on the move in a shoot and scoot mode. When it comes to the firing session, the gun shall be aligned “on the move” to reduce the delay to manoeuvre, be laid on the designated target as quick as possible, shoot directly to the target without needs of fire adjustment and scoot to the next firing position.

Contemporary gun systems have a range in excess of 40 km, while multi-rocket launches can fire up to a distance of 80 to 150 km. With their enhanced ranges, high accuracy of positioning and azimuth are of critical importance.

Today’s navigation systems enable modern artillery guns to have the following combined performances:

1. An orientation accuracy enabling firing errors contribution limited to 35 m at 40 km firing range, therefore better than 0.9 miles.
2. A fixation accuracy after a tactical travelled distance of 40 km of 20 m CEP (0.05 per cent of TD) in X,Y and five metre CEP in Z (0.02 per cent of TD).
3. A fast alignment time of five minutes and less than five minutes in case of “alignment on the move”.


https://www.gdels.com/brochures/artillery_dinaps.pdf

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 13 Jan 2017 20:51

so vaibhav how would one use this kind of system to say hit a moving column? target whose position changes.. i will still need a spotter? FOO

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2017 21:29

Successful Pinaka guided rocket test portends boost to army firepower
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/01/successful-pinaka-guided-rocket-test.html

In this, each individual guided rocket is guided separately, with an on-board computer calculating its flight path, and a transmitter and receiver on the launcher sending signals to keep it on path. Every 20 microseconds, a navigation device calculates the rocket’s position and sends a path correction message through the radio link. To correct its flight path, the rocket is shifted through thrust vectors, i.e. gases coming out from the propulsion system through nozzles.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2017 22:10

MoD in final stages of ordering 155/52 self-propelled Dhanush Artillery Gun
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=249854

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Jan 2017 22:40

manjgu wrote:so vaibhav how would one use this kind of system to say hit a moving column? target whose position changes.. i will still need a spotter? FOO


Yes, we would absolutely require an FOO to call in fires and correct the fall of rounds. However what these systems are designed to effect is when one is using artillery to engage at long ranges, get rounds on target more easily and faster.

FOO support could be relied upon when providing support fires to own forces. That is not likely to be the case, as you may well know when destroying enemy concentrations in depth. One of the reasons the US and recently the Russians in Ukraine have extensively used UAV's in FOO role to call in artillery fires but also Close Air Support and BDA.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 14 Jan 2017 00:22

Rakesh wrote:MoD in final stages of ordering 155/52 self-propelled Dhanush Artillery Gun
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=249854


It must be the Korean gun K-9 Thunder. Dhanush is a towed one and the reporter mixed it up.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ranjan.rao » 14 Jan 2017 00:23

No Bhim?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 14 Jan 2017 00:25

ranjan.rao wrote:No Bhim?


Renuka Choudhury killed it. :(( :(( :((

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 14 Jan 2017 05:26

BAE Systems manufacturing 155mm howitzers for India.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 484318055/

ARLINGTON, Va., Jan. 13 (UPI) -- BAE Systems is producing ultra-lightweight howitzers for the Indian Army as a result of a Foreign Military Sales deal between the Indian and U.S. governments.The Department of Defense contact is for a total of 145 M777 gun systems and worth $542 million, the company said."We look forward to working with the Indian Army and providing the only battle-proven 155mm ultra-lightweight howitzer in the world," Joe Senftle, vice president and general manager of Weapon Systems at BAE Systems said. "The M777 will give the Indian Army superior artillery capability."M777 will remain at the forefront of artillery technology well into the future through the use of technical insertions, long-range precision guided munition developments, and flexible mobility options."The 155mm howitzer weighs 9,300 pounds and can fire as many as five rounds per minute.BAE Systems said its work on the contract begins immediately and will be performed by BAE Systems and its suppliers across Britain, the United States and India.Deliveries of the howitzers are to begin this June.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jan 2017 05:57

Oh my the irony! Blacklisted Bofors is now making artillery pieces again for India.

BAE Systems acquired United Defense and its Bofors subsidiary in 2005!

Bofors has come full circle - from contractor to blacklister to contractor again.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sohamn » 14 Jan 2017 06:21

Its not that much of an irony - it would if we would have bought FH-77B02. We did FMS with USA and the artillery is almost entirely produced in USA.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sohamn » 14 Jan 2017 06:24

Snehashis wrote:
Rakesh wrote:MoD in final stages of ordering 155/52 self-propelled Dhanush Artillery Gun
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=249854


It must be the Korean gun K-9 Thunder. Dhanush is a towed one and the reporter mixed it up.



Dhanush is self propelled but not a track or truck mounted artillery. It has a small engine which enables it to shoot and scoot. where the reporter got confused is that Dhanush is not 155/52 but is a 155/45 caliber artillery. These DDM reports know little that there is another artillery in development by DRDO known as ATAGS which is 155/52 caliber.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sohamn » 14 Jan 2017 06:27

Rakesh wrote:Successful Pinaka guided rocket test portends boost to army firepower
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/01/successful-pinaka-guided-rocket-test.html

In this, each individual guided rocket is guided separately, with an on-board computer calculating its flight path, and a transmitter and receiver on the launcher sending signals to keep it on path. Every 20 microseconds, a navigation device calculates the rocket’s position and sends a path correction message through the radio link. To correct its flight path, the rocket is shifted through thrust vectors, i.e. gases coming out from the propulsion system through nozzles.


Does guru's know if pinaka has control surfaces or is solely vectored by thrust?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kashi » 14 Jan 2017 07:35

sohamn wrote:Dhanush is self propelled but not a track or truck mounted artillery. It has a small engine which enables it to shoot and scoot. where the reporter got confused is that Dhanush is not 155/52 but is a 155/45 caliber artillery. These DDM reports know little that there is another artillery in development by DRDO known as ATAGS which is 155/52 caliber.


According to the Swarajya in 2015

Work on version 2 of the Dhanush is already in progress. It is going to be an upgraded version from the current 155mm/45 caliber to 155mm/52 caliber. This is a parallel program that the OFB has undertaken on its own and will compete with the Advanced Towed Artillery System which is a 155mm/52 caliber howitzer which is being developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in association with Indian private sector companies.

http://swarajyamag.com/politics/finally ... s-dhanush/

It's unclear if the final inventory of Dhanush will include a mix of 155/45 and 155/52 or are they all going to be 155/45 with 155/52 solely comprised of ATAGS.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 14 Jan 2017 07:50

I always thought that the original 39 cal could be upgraded to 52 cal. Am happy to note that the OFB has taken the initiative to do it.

What change political leadership brings. 5years ago I was moaning and bitching that I will be a grand parent before we get any new 155s to the army. And here I am looking at 5 different products to be inducted in the Army.

155 mm dhanush
Atags
M 777
K9
Truck mounted 155

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 14 Jan 2017 12:02

^^ Have we finalized Truck mounted Gun already ? I believe No.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kit » 14 Jan 2017 12:12

What wonders we can see once GOI moves it's act .. compare the artillery sector now to 5 years back !!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby arun » 14 Jan 2017 17:18

Rakesh wrote:Successful Pinaka guided rocket test portends boost to army firepower
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/01/successful-pinaka-guided-rocket-test.html

{Rest Snipped}


For good order our Ministry of Defence official press release on the test of the “Guided Pinaka” Rocket via PIB:

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
12-January-2017 19:26 IST

Successful Test Firing of Guided Pinaka

The Pinaka Rocket converted to a Guided Pinaka was successfully test-fired from Launch Complex-III, ITR, Chandipur today. The Pinaka Rocket Mark-II, which evolved from Pinaka Mark-I is equipped with a navigation, guidance and control kit and has been transformed to a Guided Pinaka. This conversion has considerably enhanced the range and accuracy of Pinaka. The test-firing has met all mission objectives. The radars, electro-optical and telemetry systems at Chandipur tracked and monitored the vehicle all through the flight-path. The Guided Pinaka is developed jointly by ARDE Pune, RCI Hyderabad and DRDL Hyderabad. ITR Chandipur provided the range and launch support.

Dr. K.M. Rajan, Director ARDE, Pune, Shri B.H.V.S. Narayana Murthy, Director, RCI, Hyderabad, Dr. B.K. Das, Director, ITR, Chandipur and Shri R. Appavuraj, Director, PXE, Chandipur monitored the launch operations. An Armed Forces team witnessed the flight test. Dr. G. Satheesh Reddy, SA to Raksha Mantri was present during the test firing.

Raksha Mantri, Shri Manohar Parrikar has congratulated the DRDO, industry and the Armed Forces for the successful flight-test. Shri P.K. Mehta, DG (ACE) and Dr. S. Christopher, Secretary, Deptt. of Defence R&D and Chairman, DRDO, also congratulated all the teams that participated in the successful test firing.

NW/RAJ
(Release ID :157308)

Clicky PIB



Presumably the Guided Pinaka rocket used Israeli supplied Trajectory Correction System (TCS) manufactured by IMI Systems:

TCS - Trajectory Correction System for Artillery Rockets

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 14 Jan 2017 18:18

Is there any move to upgrade the existing bofors gun to Dhanush standard? OFB has already been making barrels for the B77 guns.
I think we still have about 250 guns in operation and all of them can be upgraded to the Dhanush standard.

The production for Dhanush guns should be expanded to about a 100 guns per year from next year and the total order increased to about 300 guns. The original plan was to produce about 414 guns. With the ATAGS prototypes now ready, they can enter production around 2019-2020 timeframe. This would be enough time to produce about 300 Dhanush guns and also upgrade about 250 existing bofors guns to Dhanush standard.
The big boost in the artillery program should also be used to improve the efficiency of OFBs and maybe the vehicles factory Jabalpur, can be taken over by GCF. Stallion trucks and all other vehicles can be produced by the private sector. No need for OFB to do screw drivergiri on kits delivered by Ashok Leyland or others.

Maybe OFB can also offer the M46 upgrade package to countries like Vietnam. Vietnam has a lot of M46 guns and we can offer them an upgrade to 155mm/39 or 45 caliber standard. GCF already has this solution developed. We can also supply them with 155mm ammunition as well.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 15 Jan 2017 00:37

Kashi wrote:....It's unclear if the final inventory of Dhanush will include a mix of 155/45 and 155/52 or are they all going to be 155/45 with 155/52 solely comprised of ATAGS.


Dhanush 52 Cal is a competing product with ATAGS, former from OFB while latter from DRDO.

Overall improves Army's chances of getting a 52 cal gun in some form or the other.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 15 Jan 2017 00:39

kit wrote:What wonders we can see once GOI moves it's act .. compare the artillery sector now to 5 years back !!


One must give credit to Parrikar for this. Ever since he took charge the MoD is acting like a clearing house for all pent up defence deals - big and small. I really like his analytical style and practical approach.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 15 Jan 2017 00:47

BAE Systems starts production of Howitzers for India
Deliveries commence in June 2017

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=249883

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 15 Jan 2017 05:12

Does anybody know if the guidance system of Pinaka is an in house development or an adaptation of IMI/Honeywell system?

In Def Expo'16, Alpha Design had also showcased a trajectory correction system in collaboration with MBDA.

Somebody had asked whether there is a thrust vectoring system on guided rockets. Not, in the real sens. he rocket motor burns out during the ascent phase. Thereafter it becomes a ballistic projectile except for inputs from the control unit housed in the nose. This inputs either small pulse motors, up to 80, each of them producing small impulse, or deflection of canards, or both. State-of-art systems can achieve a CEP of less than ten meters immaterial of the range.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 15 Jan 2017 07:34

Okay. Found out. It is the Alpha+MBDA combo.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby PratikDas » 15 Jan 2017 08:13

Indranil, is that correct - up to 80 pulse motors on one rocket? Or should it be 8?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rishi Verma » 15 Jan 2017 08:38

Aditya G wrote:
kit wrote:What wonders we can see once GOI moves it's act .. compare the artillery sector now to 5 years back !!


One must give credit to Parrikar for this. Ever since he took charge the MoD is acting like a clearing house for all pent up defence deals - big and small. I really like his analytical style and practical approach.


Before everyone jumps with joy... India needs a minimum of 3000 155mm guns. Lets get them, deploy them, then give credit to parrikar's analytical genius. But yes things are moving forward - not fast enough though

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 15 Jan 2017 08:43

PratikDas wrote:Indranil, is that correct - up to 80 pulse motors on one rocket? Or should it be 8?

the very first IMI system had 80. IIT Kanpur was studying a system for the BM-21. They required up to 36 firings in some simulations.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jan 2017 09:05

Rishikesh relax, even if the a tags fails, the backup is the OFB danush with a 52 call barel. After that it's only a matter of time before all other requirements can be met by OFB itself. So I am quite happy with the prospects of new guns.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 18 Jan 2017 12:21

Both models of ATAGS marching in Republic Day Parade.

See pictures from front and side.. they are quite different. Hope this wouldn't create logistics issue.

And there is Dhanush marching as well.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/galleri ... 83--4.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 18 Jan 2017 14:44

ashishvikas wrote:Both models of ATAGS marching in Republic Day Parade.

See pictures from front and side.. they are quite different. Hope this wouldn't create logistics issue.

And there is Dhanush marching as well.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/galleri ... 83--4.html


These are two prototype designs, the plan is to select one and build them by two vendors.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Avinandan » 18 Jan 2017 17:08

Image
Courtesy: New Indian Express

The above image of ATAGs has larger foot print than the classic G5 towed setup. :(
In G5 the barrel is pointed backwards.

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 18 Jan 2017 19:06

Its exactly the same as the G5. Its being towed to show off not to transport! Look at the keyring holder near the truck for the barrel to rest on.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jan 2017 19:43

I can see more than a small amount of Fh 77 lineage in both the designs. All in all I am happy for all the new 155 mm that are under trails and under manufacture for Indian Army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 18 Jan 2017 20:05

Quick doubt, will they be towed or will they be moving on their APU power?? For PR purposes, I believe moving under their own power would deliver more punch than being towed.
Just 2 paisa..

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2017 20:14

the APU might be useful for self parking and moving around a little bit but useless for road cruising or in tough mud....a powerful truck has to haul this baby off mostly always.

note the box containing the muzzle velocity radar ahead of the shock absorbers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jan 2017 22:38

Watervliet Arsenal receives largest contract in decades to support ... the Indian Army
https://www.army.mil/article/180746/

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 19 Jan 2017 01:39

Image
Courtesy: New Indian Express

1. Anybody knows which prototype is whose? I know somebody at IDRW has a theory, but its IDRW.
2. The pictures from the Balasore tests show the prototype with the shiny APU exhaust (nearer to us). Any confirmation of the other prototype in trial?


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