Artillery: News & Discussion

deejay
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 12 Sep 2017 16:40

^^^^ So trials still on. Lucky no injuries.

Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Sep 2017 16:42

More Details
Livefist‏@livefist

4:31 PM - 12 Sep 2017 BREAKING: M777 howitzer barrel bursts during firing tests at Pokhran. Incident took place 10 days ago. No injuries, says Army.
4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.
4:33 PM - 12 Sep 2017 Army: 'The barrel of the M777 has been damaged, extent of which is being assessed by jt investigation team at site.'

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby fanne » 12 Sep 2017 16:51

shell quality or some systematic failure?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 12 Sep 2017 16:53

4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.


Interesting description of the incident compared to Dhanush.

I will wait for a day to see if there are viral news report on "faulty M777 barrels".

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 12 Sep 2017 16:59

^^ we should expect a report like "faulty Indian (OFB) ammunition caused M777 accident". They are already painting M777 as a victim in their press release.

4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 12 Sep 2017 17:08

Indian ammunition is mentioned. Dhanush barrel burst saga deja vu ?

Just glad no one was hurt very badly..

My respect to those heroes just goes up higher. The dangers they face even in peace times are huge

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 12 Sep 2017 17:34

I recall a similar incident during the testing of the Pegasus 155 mm gun by Singapore. The shell burst inside the barrel. That was due to a faulty fuse.

So this could be due to that as well.

So let the RCA be done by the army and then may be we can know what exactly happen.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Sep 2017 17:42


brar_w
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 12 Sep 2017 18:01

nam wrote:
4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.


Interesting description of the incident compared to Dhanush.

I will wait for a day to see if there are viral news report on "faulty M777 barrels".


Not to nitpick, but it has been known that the current trials are testing and integrating local munition with the imported system. That this is mentioned as a description of the event is appropriate imho. If someone wrongly attributes the cause based just on these "Known facts" then it would be a matter worth criticizing. But until we have official word on what the Indian Army, and the OEM supporting the trials this cannot be ascertained.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohiths » 12 Sep 2017 18:10

If foreign maal malfunctions it is because of Indian shells or poor training. If Indian maal malfunctions it is because of poor product or design. Either way it is SDRE fault. I just hope they don't scrap purchases because of this barrel bursting.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 12 Sep 2017 19:24

brar_w wrote:
nam wrote:
Interesting description of the incident compared to Dhanush.

I will wait for a day to see if there are viral news report on "faulty M777 barrels".


Not to nitpick, but it has been known that the current trials are testing and integrating local munition with the imported system. That this is mentioned as a description of the event is appropriate imho. If someone wrongly attributes the cause based just on these "Known facts" then it would be a matter worth criticizing. But until we have official word on what the Indian Army, and the OEM supporting the trials this cannot be ascertained.


Was a sarcastic remark :D

Comments meant for the media which went to town blaming Dhanush barrels when such a incident happened before. All sorts of report came out that Dhanush induction will be delayed or scrapped due to the barrel busting.

Compare to that, this incident description very specifically mentions the ammo... to prevent anyone pointing finger towards M777.

Either way, if faulty barrel on dhanush or ammo, OFB get the blame, which will make me glad. They need tons of bricks on their head.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 12 Sep 2017 19:46

Uhh.. the OFB ammo has burst in the original Bofors, the Dhanush and now the M777. Seems to point to the ammo, not the guns.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 12 Sep 2017 20:03

Happened before too but good in our case no one was injured

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/03/ ... 300224209/

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Nitesh » 12 Sep 2017 20:20

Even Saurab Jha has started claiming (in twitter) that DDL Dalal Defence League is activated to save the imported system.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karthik S » 12 Sep 2017 21:00

Artillery mishap killed two US soldiers in Iraq when their M777 gun exploded
The soldiers were targeting an ISIS position but the howitzer misfired and the shell exploded killing two and injuring five.


http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/08 ... 35453.html

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 21:09




brar_w, Thanks for the papers.
The first one is a single canard concept paper.
The second is closer to PGK. Will read and study it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 21:20

Kakarat wrote:Ajay Banerjee‏ @ajaynewsman

-#M777 howtizer accident at firing range in India. No injuries to anyone. @adgpi @SpokespersonMoD
-Ammo burst in pieces inside barrel



- First glad no personnel were injured.

- Second this puts a kabash on the motivated leakers who tried hard to malign Dhanush. Barrel burst is with Bofors, upgraded 130 mm barrels, Dhanush, and now M777.

- Third the fact that M777 had a barrel burst in US in 2011 shows its not just OFB ammunition.

- Fourth the Army artillery community has not been candid about the problems they have and nor addressed it in a comprehensive systematic manner.
But for the last TOI report from Nashik ,the fact that 40 separate incidents have occurred in the past with Bofors, upgraded 130mm barrels, would have thought it was a problem confined to Dhanush only.

This show there is a systemic problem and not just blame the gun(s).

- Fifth I had mentioned in some post the IA better understand this shell burst for if it happens on the M777 it could be expensive.

-Sixth if the M777 accident happened 10 days ago why the need for keeping it quiet and give press releases to uninformed press reporters?

Will open another post to look at the root cause analysis.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 12 Sep 2017 22:06

well well well...I present a video of a marine M777 in afpak whose recoil mechanism broke. and on top of it they had to fire high angle rounds to support a nearby firefight. tons of sweating and cursing manhandling it like a 120mm mortar

the comments are telling. i wonder if BAE reps will be posted in tawang and depsang to help out?

it will be interesting to see its uptime in IA service in indian conditions once the mighty Shinooks sling it to some isolated hamlet with not even proper roads to tow it there :D let alone a burger king for bideshi experts to hang out in between troubleshooting sessions

http://www.military.com/video/operation ... 1854731001

Erichs
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Why is this gun so hard to operate? It seems that it has to be lowered every time it needs to be reloaded like a 16 inch gun on a battleship.

dave81sg
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Erichs It does have to be lowered to a certain elevation but normally the gun fires in "Low Angle". The fact the crew is supporting Troops in Contact (TIC) only a half mile away (which would be easily direct fire range) means the crew has to elevate to "High Angle" and lob the round up. I'm an FO and can't comment on crew proficiency but my buddy, who was a Triple 7 instructor told me from watching and listening to this video that this howitzer is totally broke. The good thing about the Triple 7: even when broke you can still manhandle it through missions. He showed me a video of his AIT crew pumping out about three rounds in 30 seconds (way too many for sustained fire) but still impressive. From two tours in Afghanistan, I can tell you the heat breaks equipment down and the dust gets absolutly everywhere and in places you just can't get to to clean. BAE had a contact team going around to FOBs just to keep these guns operational. My question is: Why is there only one gun firing? Is there only one gun on the FOB? Are the other guns broke to bad to fire?

Tim1952
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I'm not a gunner, but it's obvious that the mechanism that is supposed to return the barrel forward from the recoil isn't operating. The crew has to lower the barrel so they're not pushing against gravity and then manually push the barrel forward before they can load and fire another round. I commend them on their hard efforts to complete the fire mission despite the failure of the recoil mechanism. It is also a sad commentary on the lack of logistics and maintenance support that the repair parts aren't available, or that contractor support isn't available, to keep the weapon system in proper operating condition.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 22:43

Singha, Lets not bandwagon and diss the M777 yet.
God knows IA needs new guns.
Again its most likely an issue of 155mm shells in long barrels with high charge.

This leads to the shell wobbling/ balloting and will lead to exploding in barrel.
The accelerations are around 40,000 gs. That force is imparted in millisecs.
And could function the shell explosives without a fuze.


BTW, folks Livefist says the Indian Army statement said the words quoted in his tweet.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Sep 2017 22:49

Singha wrote:He showed me a video of his AIT crew pumping out about three rounds in 30 seconds (way too many for sustained fire) but still impressive. From two tours in Afghanistan, I can tell you the heat breaks equipment down and the dust gets absolutly everywhere and in places you just can't get to to clean


Well, well, well .... indeed

1) 3 rounds in 30 seconds is impressive for M777. ATAGS does 6 rounds in 30 seconds! Suck on that

2) "Dust gets everywhere" - welcome to Rajasthan, Mr. GI Joes. This is what the Indian Army puts its guns through

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Sep 2017 22:52

Ramana Ji: I reported a post to the Mods (about a different thread). Can you please look into it? Thanks

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 12 Sep 2017 23:22

Singha wrote:well well well...I present a video of a marine M777 in afpak whose recoil mechanism broke. and on top of it they had to fire high angle rounds to support a nearby firefight. tons of sweating and cursing manhandling it like a 120mm mortar



Not an expert, but I would guess that reliability would measured by taking into account a fairly large sample size and one off incidents explored and analyzed to single out hardware, munition, or TTP concerns and not develop insight into overall system or component reliability. Any idea on how many total artillery rounds were fired in Afghanistan with the M777?

Also on contracting support, that is a customer decision on how it procures O&S in or out. You can completely do away with the OEM and field organic support capability for the 1000+ systems you have acquired, or if you don't want to carry that you do a mix, and dial support up when you require it at higher intensity as would be the case if you have systems deployed in multiple theaters of operation halfway across the world. Same applies to India, India can contract with private industry for support or look to do it all in house.
Last edited by brar_w on 12 Sep 2017 23:41, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 12 Sep 2017 23:23

Indranil wrote:Ramana sir, slides 7 and 8 in the slide deck posted by brar answers it.

By placing the control canards at the correct orientation (in the plane perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the projectile), you can change the net lift on the projectile. As the CL is in front of the CG, this creates the moment. The stepper function is achieved using adaptive braking using a simple alternator.

Picklu wrote:It is 2D guidance, not 3D

My understanding is the lift generated gets altered due to the spin and any deviation in range gets corrected (within limits)

However the sidewise errors can't be.

But that's ok for the most part since based on currect dispersal pattern (there is one in Brar's ppt as well), range correct is required more

Incorrect sir, the nose can be moved "left, right, top, bottom". That is the 2D guidance.


Thanks for the correction

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Skanda » 12 Sep 2017 23:24

Faulty Indian Ammo Damages First Artillery Guns Imported In 3 Decades

The first artillery gun imported by India in over three decades has been badly damaged after a shell manufactured by the Defence Ministry's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) exploded.


Yup. Manufactured in India and hence it is bad. Obviously the Gun is as clean as it can be.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srin » 12 Sep 2017 23:36

ramana wrote:
nam wrote:Wonder if rockets(MBRL) can be fitted with the PGK. Would make a deadly precision weapon and cheap.


Yes. US wants to use PGK on mortars to GMLRs.
The caveat is the projectile should be spin stabilized.
The reason is the canard lift is additive to the body lift for fin stabilized bodies.
In plain language wont work for fin stabilized rockets.

I will post some links in a few minutes.


I thought mortars shells are fin stablized to be fired out of smooth bore barrels ? So PGK shouldn't work with them ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 23:59

srin, they have a version for mortars.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 13 Sep 2017 01:28

Skanda wrote:Faulty Indian Ammo Damages First Artillery Guns Imported In 3 Decades

The first artillery gun imported by India in over three decades has been badly damaged after a shell manufactured by the Defence Ministry's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) exploded.


Yup. Manufactured in India and hence it is bad. Obviously the Gun is as clean as it can be.


The article claims sources it has obtained that point to the fact. Further down, they also claim that it was an issue with the shells that caused incidents earlier with the indigenous guns (and not fault with the gun itself) which would runs contrary to the Manufactured in India and hence it is bad narrative. Based on what is available, it is too early to tell. Wish their source could have provided additional details but in the absence this is still TBD.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2017 02:45

Time for some Root Cause Analysis (RCA). We wont get there as we don't have access but hopefully by showing a structured approach we can steer the thought process.

What happened: About September 2, 2017 one M777 gun barrel burst/damaged during trials at Pokhran

Why: 155mm shell made by OFB exploded.

How do we know? IA statement as reported by Press says Ammunition exited in several pieces. Euphemism for shell blew-up in the barrel.

Evidence for above statements is shown below:

4:31 PM - 12 Sep 2017 BREAKING: M777 howitzer barrel bursts during firing tests at Pokhran. Incident took place 10 days ago. No injuries, says Army.
4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.
4:33 PM - 12 Sep 2017 Army: 'The barrel of the M777 has been damaged, extent of which is being assessed by jt investigation team at site.'


5 Whys?

Why did the barrel burst? The shell exploded in the barrel.
Why did the shell burst? We don't know and that is the objective of the investigation.


5 Whys gives you a surface level RCA while the root cause occurs in a tree. Remember root is buried underground!

Also any RCA that blames human factors is not worth the paper its written on.

There are numerous factors, processes, procedures, design issues, schedule of events all that contribute to the accident. its like a Swiss cheese slices model. The accident is caused by the line of sight that goes through all the holes and penetrates all the barriers. Hence it is so rare.

A preliminary Fault tree for the investigation would have the following branches. If c some one can draw it up and post would be nice.

Top level block M777 Gun Barrel Burst

Next level 5 blocks : Gun Shell Fuze Procedures Environment

Some times the branches will cross over as there is a combination factors but that means we don't have enough data.


Branches:

The branch for the Gun block will have following causes vertically down : Gun barrel material out of specifications, incorrect heat treatment of barrel, excess wear in the barrel, propelling charge ignited prematurely due to inadequate bore evacuation

Branch for the Shell will have following causes vertically down : Shell dimensional parameters out of control, Shell age out of specification, Shell corrosion at driving band, Shell storage, Shell detonated due to excess shock forces

Branch for Fuze will have Type of Fuze M572 Mechanical or Electronic Fuze : Depending on this it will have different branches. But common blocks will be Safety and Arming Device Actuated prematurely in the barrel, Firing mechanism triggered in the barrel

Branch for Procedures will have the following blocks: Inadequate procedures, Procedures not followed,

Branch for Environment will have: Temperature and air density at that time of day, Sand on the shell prevented proper seating in the chamber, Firing tempo that day (were a number of rounds fired in a short time that created schedule pressure on the crew), training of the crew

Some of the blocks are self explanatory but I think a few need some more verbiage.

The main reason the shell can burst is due to : 1) wobbling/balloting/side slap,2) fuze functioned before its time due to Safety & Arming being defeated and fire signal sent, and 4) incorrect shell registering in the barrel due to procedures or debris like sand which makes the shell fall in the chamber.

Some data needed:

Type of Shell :M107 or BB or EER. Each has its own factors.
What was its age and condition before firing? Any corrosion at the driving band.
What is the shell pedigree? Are there other shells from same lot?
If so can they verify any dimensions and mass properties for say ten shells to confirm they are within the parameters.

Type of Fuze :M572 mechanical or the ECIL Proximity Fuze?
What was its age and pedigree?

Charge and barrel angle:

What was the charge bag number when the accident happened? Was it minimum or maximum?
Was the barrel at low or high angle?
High angle could be a contributor if the shell did not seat properly and could fall back into the chamber. Then when the gun is fired the shell still exits the chamber and could explode in barrel or right upon muzzle exit.

Temperature and time of day. This is rare but when guns are fired cold some times the shell and fuze separate. Was seen during many night time or early morning barrages.

Also did this accident happen right in the beginning or after a series of rounds were fired? Later could be due to charge debris preventing the round from seating in the barrel.

Gun: What was its condition? How many rounds were already fired? Each round erodes the barrel bore and increases the diameter so that shell side slap can occur. What is the heat treatment regimen? Repeated firings cause micro cracks in the barrel that could cause it to burst. So metallographic examination of barrel is a must. DMRL Hyderabad has awesome lab for this.

Once all this data is available , they should call in ARDE to do an analysis using their computer software for internal ballistics of the gun with actual shell parameters. Or get BAE to bring the analysis. But involve ARDE.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2017 02:49

brar_w, Its not like the reporters write their own core story. They base it off the IA press release and add masala to the report depending on their agenda or axe to grind.

On Twitter I rebutted the OFB shells as the cause because M777 fired with US ammo on two occasions (2011 and 2017 linked on previous page) had barrel burst. So its not just OFB ammo as the Indian media put out.

Its dead wrong.

However if IA gave that story they are also wrong and should not color the investigation.

Will look for actual press release.

Many news stories typical of which is given below:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 66333.html


Shishir Arya reports a different thing here:

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/09 ... m-777.html

Now Muzzle Hit Occurs In M-777 Howitzers During Trials In Pokhran
by Shishir Arya


Nagpur: A muzzle hit occurred in the M-777 ultralight howitzers procured from the US, during trials in the Pokhran desert last week. The first batch of the guns, made by BAE Systems, was delivered in May this year as a part of the deal to buy 145 pieces in all. M-777 is the first acquisition of high calibre howitzers after Bofors.


A senior official in army's artillery wing confirmed the incident. It is a small incident and most probably due to faulty ammunition." A joint investigation is being carried out to ascertain the cause," the officer told TOI.


The muzzle is fixed on the top of a barrel. If a shell dashes through it, the range is reduced considerably and the muzzle gets damaged too.


A similar issue was seen in Dhanush, the Indian gun designed on the lines of the Swedish Bofors by the ordnance factory. The howitzer is being made at the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), Jabalpur.


During trials in July, there was muzzle hit in the Dhanush guns. Prior to this, there was an incident in May also. The preliminary report over the May incident in Dhanush had blamed the ammunition.


Last month, there was as barrel burst in K-9 Thunder guns during trials in Korea. Guns of the same make are being acquired for India.


On the K-9 guns, the army official said, "The incident took place outside India. As the Korean ammunition and loading systems were in use, the incident has to be taken independently."


Top sources in the army say Dhanush is expected to be inducted within six months to a year. An investigation is being conducted and it is suspected that even in the Indian gun, faulty ammunition may be the cause.


Repeated incidents of muzzle hit and one barrel burst in Dhanush has pushed back its final induction. Even in the original Bofors, nearly 40 cases of muzzle hit were reported. If final report for Dhanush blames the ammunition, doubts can be set aside on its design, said sources.


Apart from making Dhanush, the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has also tied up with BAE Systems to make mounted howitzers of 155x52 mm calibre. It will be having a higher range than Dhanush due to length of the barrel. Bharat Earth Movers Limited will be making the vehicle on which the gun will be mounted.


As the army has to replace the ageing Bofors guns, the weapons are being made by private as well as government entities. These include Dhanush by ordnance factories, K-9 Vajra by Larsen and Toubro in collaboration with Korean Hanwa Techwin, ATAGS of Bharat Forge-Tata Power SED, apart from M-777 of BAE Systems.


Gun That Created A New World Record

The 155x52 mm howitzer jointly developed by Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED has created a new world record by achieving a range of more than 48 km. The trials were held last week. This surpasses all the previous records for any 155mm artillery in the world, said a statement issued by development partners of the gun. The project was started in 2014.

The guns are being made by Bharat Forge, a Kalyani Group Company and TATA Power SED as development partners of Armament Development Research Establishment (ARDE), Pune. The over 48 km range was achieved with the basebleed version of the ammunition.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 13 Sep 2017 04:07

ramana wrote:brar_w, Its not like the reporters write their own core story. They base it off the IA press release and add masala to the report depending on their agenda or axe to grind.



Ramana, this is precisely why I said its TBD, but as it pertains to the last report they were apparently attributing the cause for both the M777 and the Dhanush on these rounds as per their sources. I agree it is too early to tell based on public disclosure so we will have to wait for the IA to come out with more information as and when they deem appropriate.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Sep 2017 04:08

So, why not simultaneously conduct trials (for both Dhamush and M777) in the Pokharan range with TFTA imported ammunition first? If those trials are conducted without barrel burst, then we would know that it is neither the gun(s), nor the hot and dusty environment at Pokharan that is at fault. Then it would come down to the desi ammunition.

If it can be narrowed down to the desi ammunition, then an RCA can be done to come up with a proper fix.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 13 Sep 2017 04:19

I think the point of the trials is to validate the weapon in an Indian operational context. If there is problem with the M777 and Indian ammunition for any reason whatsoever (something with the gun, or the shell or TTPs) then that is something that needs to be remedied before moving forward. If you want to basically see how the weapon holds up to dust you could do it much easier earlier on in the competition or program. The weapon has been used in plenty of dusty conditions and the MOD/IA could have requested data and actual live performance during its initial evaluation of the system. This is operational testing for the purposes of integrating it with the IA - it needs to replicate as closely as possible, the actual environment, shell, and TTPs that will be used in battle.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ov9jMFU2 ... /giphy.gif

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kashi » 13 Sep 2017 05:27

Before we jump to shifting all the blame onto the OFB shell, take a load of some of these reports

2011

Ten injured as artillery piece explodes

FORT BRAGG, N.C., March 15 (UPI) -- Ten military personnel were injured when an artillery cannon exploded at Fort Bragg, N.C., a U.S. Marines spokesman said.

An apparent in-bore explosion of an M777A2 -- a new lightweight howitzer cannon that fires 155mm artillery rounds -- occurred during a live-fire exercise, injuring eight Marines and two Navy personnel, The Fayetteville (N.C.) Observer reported.


2014

82nd Airborne paratrooper dies in howitzer explosion at Fort Bragg

Military officials say an 82nd Airborne soldier has been killed and two others seriously injured in an explosion during a training exercise at Fort Bragg.

A statement from the North Carolina Army post says Friday's blast occurred during artillery live-fire training involving the 18th Fires Brigade. Officials said there was "an incident" with a M777 light, towed howitzer.

It’s at least the second live-fire incident in which troops were injured during training at Fort Bragg in three years.


2017

Artillery mishap killed two US soldiers in Iraq when their M777 gun exploded

It was learned that the two who died belonged to the 82nd Airborne Division which has its peacetime location at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. The crew of seven was firing an M777 Howitzer which is a heavy 155mm artillery gun with a range of 10-15 miles. They were directing their fire towards an ISIS position when the gun malfunctioned and the shell exploded.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 13 Sep 2017 05:33

Again context would matter. How many total guns out there? how many deployed in combat since 2009? how much utilization? etc etc.

Anyhow, there are details available on at least one of these three incidents. 2014 -

A battery commander and half a dozen leaders were disciplined after an artillery accident at Fort Bragg last year that killed one soldier and injured seven soldiers, two seriously, according to an Army investigative report obtained by The Fayetteville Observer.

The accident occurred at Sunken Track training field just after midnight on Feb. 21, 2014. Soldiers with 1st Section, 1st Platoon, Bravo Battery, 321st Field Artillery Regiment, 18th Fires Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division were conducting a nighttime training exercise with the M777 light-towed howitzer. The training was to include a platoon air assault, reaction to enemy contact and live fire.

Pfc. James Groth was killed. Sgt. Cory Muzzy and Sgt. Scott Yeates were seriously injured.

A 10-man crew was operating the howitzer. The crew consisted of a section chief, gunner, assistant gunner, driver, ammunition handler and five cannoneers.

Around 12:22 a.m., five crew members attempted to ram a second round into their howitzer breech, but the first round had not cleared the tube, according to the Army investigative report. The action caused an explosion of powder increment from the first round, according to the report.

The report, obtained by the Observer under the Freedom of Information Act, is more than 400 pages and includes witness statements and photos of the cannon. The investigation, conducted by the 18th Fires Brigade, was ordered by Lt. Gen. John Nicholson, who was the commander of the 82nd Airborne Division at the time.


The investigator listed eight findings and made eight recommendations. Among the findings, the investigator said:

The 1st section required more senior leader presence while conducting live fire operations;
Bravo Battery was not provided adequate time to execute platoon training. Instead, most of its training time had been focused at the section level with minimum opportunities to train at the platoon level;
3rd Battalion had an inadequate certification tracking system, therefore it did not have effective means to track the minimum certification requirements for sections and individuals, which ensure each person is qualified to perform his duties;
The air medical evacuation plan for field operations was inadequate to meet the possibility of a life-threatening incident.....

LINK


As Ramana describes in his thorough summary of the "next steps", much like any accident investigation they will look into the weapon, the round and the TTPs.

While the 2017 report would probably not be available for some time, it would be interesting if someone could see if the 2011 report is out there, or a summary of its contents were reported back then.
Last edited by ramana on 13 Sep 2017 21:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added More highlights ramana

Kashi
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kashi » 13 Sep 2017 06:05

I agree the context matters. I was merely commenting on the proclivity of some in the media and elsewhere to jump the gun without waiting for the "accident investigation" to come out.

With Dhanush it was the fault of the gun, with M777 it was the shell. Ramana has articulated with very well above.

2017 report will be interesting, since it happened in a battlefield and 3 years after the For Bragg incident. It would be interesting to see what steps were taken after 2011 and 2014 incidents and did they have any influence on what happened in 2017?

brar_w
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 13 Sep 2017 06:15

Equipment malfunctions in combat or peacetime (not just gun but also ammo and support equipment), troops make mistakes..there are training lapses and reduced readiness due to which errors can creep in and cause loss of life in a combat setting. The summary of the 2014 report points to certain things and has certain recommendations. Of the three incidents you point to, only one actually happened in a combat situation..and this weapon has been deployed in a few theaters by multiple users since 2009 (in fact it was an FMS customer that took it into a theater of operations before the US services) .

It would be interesting to see what steps were taken after 2011 and 2014 incidents and did they have any influence on what happened in 2017?


This assumes a common thread between these three incidents over the last decade + the weapon has been in testing or operational service. There may be common threads (either related to equipment, TTPs or both) but unless you have other details you won't be able to tell. The 2014 report summary actually goes into quite detail to describe the event. This is why digging the 2011 report summary will help.

Does someone know where in India the demonstrations in 2010 took place?

Edit: Was able to find this -

“With India and BAE Systems, we tested those guns to Indian require- ments,” he said. “We were out in the western plains near the border with Pakistan and we also tested them up in the Himalayan Mountains, at an elevation close to 13,000 feet and about 50 miles from the Chinese border. It’s no secret that India is very concerned about their borders and protecting their borders. So that’s where they wanted to test these guns.” LINK
Last edited by brar_w on 13 Sep 2017 07:16, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 13 Sep 2017 07:15

do howitzers clear unburned residue from previous shot using a puff of compressed air ?
this is standard in tank cannons.

what does it mean 1st round did not clear barrel when 2nd round was inserted in accident report above.

niran
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby niran » 13 Sep 2017 07:48

Singha wrote:do howitzers clear unburned residue from previous shot using a puff of compressed air ?
this is standard in tank cannons.

what does it mean 1st round did not clear barrel when 2nd round was inserted in accident report above.

during me conscription days was in an Arty regiment for 6 months AFAIR merican guns needs cleaning they have those circular mop like equipment to clean before next round is loaded in. in British and Ruski guns cleaning is done every 3-4 rounds, the steps are
-round away
-open
- gunnery master inspect
- if he finds residue will order cleaning

brar_w
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 13 Sep 2017 07:54

^ This can be seen in the video below. Singha, as to your question regarding the accident summary, my guess would be that some sort of misfire situation where proper procedures may not have been followed. And yes, they used Chinooks to move these around in Afghanistan on deployments where they didn't have access to other ways to get the weapon there :).



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