Artillery: News & Discussion

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 24 Jan 2018 01:21

ramana wrote:Want to make it easy for hackers.

This is epic stupidity of gigantic proportions especially when it is known that yahoo has been hacked multiple times.

I bet the password is something like password123

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 25 Jan 2018 16:20

sohamn wrote:
ramana wrote:Want to make it easy for hackers.
This is epic stupidity of gigantic proportions especially when it is known that yahoo has been hacked multiple times.

I bet the password is something like password123

is it safe to assume they also know what we know??....

may be it is a decoy or may be to hoodwink someone or maybe it is done with a purpose or may be to x y z itd. itd. itd.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Jan 2018 18:51

sohamn wrote:
ramana wrote:Want to make it easy for hackers.
This is epic stupidity of gigantic proportions especially when it is known that yahoo has been hacked multiple times.

I bet the password is something like password123

The IAF/MOD RFI floated for 6 Flight Refueller Aircraft by the MOD also links to a Gmail account (IAF Officer) as a point of contact: http://tenders.gov.in/innerpage.asp?cho ... 457&work=1

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Jan 2018 19:42

sohamn wrote:
ramana wrote:Want to make it easy for hackers.
This is epic stupidity of gigantic proportions especially when it is known that yahoo has been hacked multiple times. I bet the password is something like password123

RFP responses typically do not contain highly sensitive information, but only generic information for compliance of criteria. For example, from the same RFP,

Effective Range - Greater than or equal to 2500m.
Effective Altitude - Not less than 1500 m.

Sensitive Information like performance criteria is typically shared during meetings or trials in a USB or CD drive.

Since the RFP is open to public, it will receive a lot of garbage in addition to RFP responses. It actually makes sense not to open IAF or IA domain ID to public. The internal network is thus secure. The gmail or yahoo email ID will be accessed on a computer outside the network. Only valid responses would be scanned and downloaded and thereafter printed or circulated in the internal network.

Infact, the Govt process of printing hard copies actually prevents electronic transmission of malware.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Jan 2018 20:16

As a matter of practice they should still avoid using yahoo's and google's of the world (I can't think of one good reason to do so). You are still liable to hacking if for nothing but to gain a peak at what sort of dialogue is being had with other vendors. From a vendor perspective they will likely require exceptions to internal policies when communicating themselves since most OEMs (at least in the US) don't have a policy of officially communicating via this route unless dealing with the media.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 25 Jan 2018 22:25

Tsarkar ji, I wish this was true! I adopted gmail early on and share a similar gmail address with a prominent IAS. I get a lot of official emails.. 'Chief Election Commissioner of Tanzania wants to establish a dialogue ......'

I have given up correcting them now.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 25 Jan 2018 23:04

Use of Gmail, Yahoo - This perhaps has been done to avoid someone getting into internal email systems with malafide intent.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2018 23:33

marten, Long ago you asked for burst pattern of a 155mm shell. I had then referred you to look at a Canadian Ammunition handbook. We now have TBRL brochure. Look at top right hand corner of page 17

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfo ... 17_WEB.pdf

Emerging Technologies And Advanced Testing & Diagnostic Facilities

Courtesy jayasimha

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 27 Jan 2018 12:10

From Saurav Jha's twitter feed:

Dhanush-52 Cal, proof fired first time in 2015.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Feb 2018 06:31

Some reading material

http://nigelef.tripod.com/ammo.htm

http://nigelef.tripod.com/wt_of_fire.htm

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 03 Feb 2018 16:33

sudeepj wrote:Tsarkar ji, I wish this was true! I adopted gmail early on and share a similar gmail address with a prominent IAS. I get a lot of official emails.. 'Chief Election Commissioner of Tanzania wants to establish a dialogue ......' I have given up correcting them now.

Turn it into an opportunity....go for a fact finding safari to Tanzania. Or say okay, lets meet for dinner and discuss

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 03 Feb 2018 21:55

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Tsarkar ji, I wish this was true! I adopted gmail early on and share a similar gmail address with a prominent IAS. I get a lot of official emails.. 'Chief Election Commissioner of Tanzania wants to establish a dialogue ......' I have given up correcting them now.
Turn it into an opportunity....go for a fact finding safari to Tanzania. Or say okay, lets meet for dinner and discuss

I wonder if I can kick start an acquisition process of South African 155mm self propelled guns..

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 04 Feb 2018 13:07

^ Think Exporting... not acquisition

The Dhanush and ATAGs should put us in a nice position

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 07 Feb 2018 06:19

Army to get 40 artillery guns made by DRDO

In what will be a major boost to self-reliance for military equipment, the Ministry of Defence is set to give permission for procurement of the first lot of 40 artillery guns made by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in collaboration with two Indian manufacturers.
The guns called the Advance Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) performed “very well” in winter trials in Sikkim last week.

The Army has given its go-ahead after seeing the performance of the weapon. Any additions or improvements to the gun can be incorporated in later versions. This will include auto-loading of ammunition and certain other specifics like reduction of the weight of this 155 mm, 52-calibre gun
The MoD had sanctioned the ATAGS project in September 2012 and the DRDO partnered with Bharat Forge and Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division) SED to develop two prototypes of the towed artillery guns. A prototype was part of the Republic Day Parade in 2017.
The Army is looking at hundreds of such guns. India had not ordered any new 155 MM artillery guns since March 1986 when 410 pieces of the Swedish company Bofors’ FH-77B 155mm/39 calibre howitzer were purchased for Rs 1,500 Crore. However, in the past 24 months, the ATAGS is the third artillery gun that is set to be purchased or made.
Rs 900-cr project
The guns, called Advance Towed Artillery Gun System, performed “very well” in trials in Sikkim last week
The MoD has now asked the DRDO to move the proposal for procurement and get the production rolling
This will cost around Rs 900 crore even as the finance wing of the MoD wants a price check

-Ankit

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2018 06:28

This 40 guns order will setup the production line for ATAGS.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Feb 2018 06:41

What a dismal order -30 guns by two manufacturers? Give a microscopic order yet expect quality as from a large world class line!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Feb 2018 06:53

Vivek K wrote:What a dismal order -30 guns by two manufacturers? Give a microscopic order yet expect quality as from a large world-class line!!

Don't be surprised if the end user doesn't place an order for the next lot of piecemeal 40 units until unless desired additions/improvements (autoloading, weight reduction, etc) are incorporated! Meanwhile, antiquated equipment soldiers on.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Feb 2018 08:24

on the contrary i think we should be thankful that even 40 have been ordered and the winter trials have actually ended on a positive note !!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2018 08:25

we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot with great precision. perhaps M777/52 is the next gori chamri everyone wants? I get it
so now ATAGS will be asked to match this, else sit on sidelines.

http://www.janes.com/article/68356/pica ... e-howitzer

Picatinny Arsenal engineers are progressing work with their M777 extended range (ER) howitzer, based on the 155 mm M777 towed artillery system, and expect to soon test the weapon with new ammunition.

Test firings in November 2016 helped advance the M777ER programme that officials hope can "create an M777 howitzer that can fire out to over 70 km", Picatinny Arsenal said in a 27 February statement.

Modifications added 2.4 m to the cannon, but limited the added overall system weight to 454 kg. "The total length of the tube increased the chamber volume as well as the rifling length," Picatinny said. "That, in combination with the additional increment of legacy propellant, resulted in an increase in range of several kilometres."

The M777ER is part of a wider Extended Range Cannon Artillery (ERCA) project to develop technology that can extend ranges for all 155 mm artillery. It includes a XM907 cannon as well as XM1113 rocket-assisted projectile, the XM654 supercharge, an autoloader, and a new fire control system.

Programme officials are to next test the M777ER to determine if it can handle "the force from the new ammunition since we would be going from a 7 km increase in range to a 40 km increase in range". If successful, those tests could lead to user evaluations or soliciting other modifications.

Testing in July 2017 will use "some new prototype hardware and new ammunition to build on the confidence we got from the November [2016] test, but isn't a complete upgrade to the system yet", David Bound, M777ER team lead, told Jane's.

Then, around July 2018, Bound expects the final demonstrator will be fully upgraded with all of the army's latest hardware. "We are working towards getting this demonstrator to be as close to representative of the howitzer we would eventually qualify for fielding as we possibly can," he said.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2018 08:32

Even Dhanush got a low order to setup production line

20 will allow a ~~battery~~ regiment to be setup for eventual User Evaluation Trials plus 2 for issues.

Manjgu, Do you know arty friends?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Feb 2018 08:49

no...my friends are in Signals..SFC. but i can find out if u have any query..

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 07 Feb 2018 09:28

ATAGS winter trials completed without any negatives is very very good news indeed. unlike Dhanush trials.
limited orders are only a first lot.
We need these guns (& Dhanush) in hundreds and thousands. Will happen.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Feb 2018 09:56

I think budgetary considerations have limited the no.of the first batch more in the line of a trial prod. run. However it is v.clear that this gun has proven itself and large orders are certain in the future.Great news.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Feb 2018 10:04

manjgu wrote:on the contrary i think we should be thankful that even 40 have been ordered and the winter trials have actually ended on a positive note !!

That is good news. Should have however order 400 units.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Feb 2018 10:08

More orders will come but first it has always been LSP

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2018 10:15

manjgu wrote:no...my friends are in Signals..SFC. but i can find out if u have any query..

Why barrel bursts for 155mm?
Any particular shell?
What charge?
Old or new barrels?

Just so you don't look like fishing:
ERFB/BB and BT (shell has brittle properties)
Max charge. (Max charge magnifies any mfg imperfection)
Old barrel as wear makes shell imperfections worse.

Thanks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2018 10:17

Any one following the BEL Pune unit fuze production? By now must have produced quite a few of them.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Feb 2018 10:48

It Is difficult to stand by Army’s acquisition arm. How come the orders for a demonstrated desi world beater has to start at 30-40, while gold plated FH777s can start in the hundreds straight away?

If I put aside all my love and respect for the Army for a while and try to answer the question bereft of all emotions, it is difficult to justify.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Feb 2018 11:42

It is not right to allege kickback without proof. But I can’t convince myself that there is no bias.

It’s a world beater gun, demonstrated in all Indib conditions. It’s is to be manufactured by two players with enviable track record. There is a dire need for exactly these guns. Then, what is the logic?

And we are saying we want to indeginize. We want to private companies to come up. We want public private design and development. But when the time has come to walk the talk, ...

By the way, Akshay kapoor sahab and Deejay, May I request you to moderate this thread strictly for a while. Spare nobody if they cross the line, including me.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Feb 2018 11:59

Vivek K wrote:What a dismal order -30 guns by two manufacturers? Give a microscopic order yet expect quality as from a large world class line!!

srai wrote:Don't be surprised if the end user doesn't place an order for the next lot of piecemeal 40 units until unless desired additions/improvements (autoloading, weight reduction, etc) are incorporated! Meanwhile, antiquated equipment soldiers on.

Indranil wrote:It Is difficult to stand by Army’s acquisition arm. How come the orders for a demonstrated desi world beater has to start at 30-40, while gold plated FH777s can start in the hundreds straight away? If I put aside all my love and respect for the Army for a while and try to answer the question bereft of all emotions, it is difficult to justify.

Come on, all of you do know that limited series production is required to set up the manufacturing line and one cant magically overnight ramp up production.

My wife cooks great for a family of four. That doesnt enable her to manage a mess of 400 officers. Rather than catastrophically fail cooking for 400 officers, its better to scale up to 40 from 4 and them take up increasing larger volumes.

Her utensils and oven used for family cooking would be useless for cooking for 400 people.

Similarly, a world beater from a lab doesnt acquire the ability to be mass produced overnight.

FWIW, here are the projected orders for ATAGS

https://flic.kr/p/WKVVDw

And BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas all are following the limited series production model. For Dhruv, the definitive MkIII model was evolved and ordered.

For F-16 orders were ramped up similarly
2 YF-16 prototypes
8 FSD
94 Block 1
197 Block 5
312 Block 10
983 Block 15
150 Block 20
244 Block 25
733 Block 30/32
615 Block 40/42

ATAGS in on the right track and needless speculation is uncalled for.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 14:12

Indranil wrote:It Is difficult to stand by Army’s acquisition arm. How come the orders for a demonstrated desi world beater has to start at 30-40, while gold plated FH777s can start in the hundreds straight away?

If I put aside all my love and respect for the Army for a while and try to answer the question bereft of all emotions, it is difficult to justify.

Indranil I really wish you would educate yourself about the acquisitions process. Orders are placed by MOD not Army Acquisitions wing as you claim. There is a process - this is a new gun (never made before and these manufacturers have never made arty guns) so the ministry will not sanction a full blown order. I would like nothing better than orders of hundreds of ATAGS immediately because I am a firm believer in capabilities of these Indian pvt firms. We really need to give them big orders and we need arty asap. There is no better solution than ATAGS and there is no question of foreign gun. That’s a figment of imangination. No arty will be procured from overseas period.

But 100s of orders immediately won’t happen. The process has to be gone through. So let’s chnage the process. But before that kindly spend a few hours understanding the process.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 14:18

Vidur sir, sorry for the trouble again but there is too much uninformed posting on BRF and we request you to give the correct perspective.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Feb 2018 14:18

Akshay, while i appreciate the point you are making. I am against the piece meal order of any item. Better make a multi year fixd price contract for the required number of guns. It makes the whole process predictable and keeps the vendors engaged.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 14:49

Agreed but I think we are in an early stage here. At next stage we really need to increase orders big time. Baba Kalyani is on record saying he can give 100 guns a year. On that note a quiz :

What did Bharat Forge request from the army some years ago in context of B52. And what happened.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 14:49

Hint : I have posted many times on this

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Feb 2018 15:14

Indian industries have been saying they need bulk orders in a more predictable time-bound process. Lead times need to be factored in. That's what needs to be fixed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Feb 2018 15:19

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Agreed but I think we are in an early stage here. At next stage we really need to increase orders big time. Baba Kalyani is on record saying he can give 100 guns a year. On that note a quiz :

What did Bharat Forge request from the army some years ago in context of B52. And what happened.

Testing facilities, they were refuses. On that note, TATA unveiled a product for the MGS and testing facilities for taht were dismissed by discribing it as a science project

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 15:26

Answer : they wanted to test it. DG Arty told Commandant Arty School to provide the range. MOD came down heavily on DG Arty saying they were not allowed to do this. So army wanted to provide the range but MOD gave them a slap on the wrist.

I have mentioned this quite a few times. But see the bias in people's minds - they forget the second part.

Now it is the same institution of DG Arty who stood by Dhanush team literally like a father figure and brought it to fruition.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 15:35

I was wondering why people were saying its the army's fault so I read the article again. Have posted it below and highlighted certain parts.

In what will be a major boost to self-reliance for military equipment, the Ministry of Defence is set to give permission for procurement of the first lot of 40 artillery guns made by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in collaboration with two Indian manufacturers.
The guns called the Advance Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) performed “very well” in winter trials in Sikkim last week.
(Follow The Tribune on Facebook; and Twitter @thetribunechd)

The Army has given its go-ahead after seeing the performance of the weapon. Any additions or improvements to the gun can be incorporated in later versions. This will include auto-loading of ammunition and certain other specifics like reduction of the weight of this 155 mm, 52-calibre gun
The MoD had sanctioned the ATAGS project in September 2012 and the DRDO partnered with Bharat Forge and Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division) SED to develop two prototypes of the towed artillery guns. A prototype was part of the Republic Day Parade in 2017.
The Army is looking at hundreds of such guns. India had not ordered any new 155 MM artillery guns since March 1986 when 410 pieces of the Swedish company Bofors’ FH-77B 155mm/39 calibre howitzer were purchased for Rs 1,500 Crore. However, in the past 24 months, the ATAGS is the third artillery gun that is set to be purchased or made.
Rs 900-cr project
The guns, called Advance Towed Artillery Gun System, performed “very well” in trials in Sikkim last week
The MoD has now asked the DRDO to move the proposal for procurement and get the production rolling
This will cost around Rs 900 crore even as the finance wing of the MoD wants a price check

nam · Post by **nam** » 07 Feb 2018 17:47

LSP are required to formulate the training and logistics requirement for any new items. For a major item like artillery gun, this is absolute necessary.

Wouldn't IA need to understand MTBF of the parts on the gun? If they don't understand it, how are they going plan the induction. What quantity of parts needs to be ordered? If these numbers are not known, how can one size the contract?

If MoD/IA wants other guns, soon there will reports of "overweight for the bridges". So far, touchwood it has been positive with "world beating range" etc..

The MoD has now asked the DRDO to move the proposal for procurement and get the production rolling

This is good. DRDO become the single point of management for the Production. Brings in a proper Project Management skills. No more develop and not worry about Production.