Artillery: News & Discussion

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 08 Feb 2018 13:22

sudeepj wrote:For Brahmos and for ALH, the orders were fairly seamless, I think the orders were kept flowing.

In this case, the need for large numbers of Guns is well known. They could invite bids from the two companies and award the contract to the L1, but what will the companies that havent even built carbines earlier base their bids on? They will simply assume the worst case scenario and offer a bid covers all uncertainties. The 20 guns to each will allow both competitors to establish production lines and offer a competitive bid. Winner will take most, loser will get a consolation prize.


No, BF atleast has a good handle on arty and are quite committed. TATA SED has been known to support projects even at a loss so they have also demosntrated commitment many times. Competence of both is unquestionable. They are world beaters - BF owns half the global forging market. So I have no worries on their count. They will do a great job. If budgets allow and the process allows a larger order might be quite useful. Hopefully it will come soon after the 1st order. Remember order is not placed yet, DRDO has to navigate the case through the process. It will take some time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 08 Feb 2018 13:23

Karan M wrote:https://www.telegraphindia.com/1160908/jsp/nation/story_107004.jsp

From the same link,
Each operational commander, designated as competent financial authority, will have two ceilings for the amount of funds he can spend at a time: one defined by consultation with an internal/integrated financial auditor and another that the commander may make at his own discretion subject to government conditions.


So spending power lies with Integrated Financial Auditor who is more powerful than the General/Admiral.

They are from Indian Defence Accounts Service, a Group A Civil Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Services_of_India

I know a hilarious case of a Commander, whose wife joined IDAS after marriage, and later on became IFA to Flag Officer C-in-C Western Naval Command. In official functions, she sat next to Admiral. She was allocated a bungalow equivalent to the Admiral while her husband was on the waitlist for a flat. The entire NWWA hierarchy went red faced and topsy turvy with every woman member cursing women's empowerment :rotfl:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 08 Feb 2018 13:31

Vidur has pointed this IDAS (Indian Defence Accounts Service) and IDS (Indian Defence Service ) issues out many times but who listens on BRF ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 08 Feb 2018 13:34

Indranil wrote:
tsarkar wrote:FWIW, here are the projected orders for ATAGS https://flic.kr/p/WKVVDw And BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas all are following the limited series production model. For Dhruv, the definitive MkIII model was evolved and ordered.
Yes, there is hope. But why this long and winded process for desi products only?

Because for every desi product, there is a long and winded process for setting up a production line. You know production engineering well. A line had to be set up for BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas from zero. Same for ATAGS. The LSP is not so much for end user use but to set up the line, establish workflows & processes, Quality Control, subcontractor base and raw material supplier base. On the other hand, Lockheed etc had well established production processes.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Feb 2018 22:29

ramana wrote:Thanks. Great summary. Lots of info to digest and how messed up we are.


So BEL fuze facility is tie-up with Reshef of Israel.

http://www.resheffuzes.com/index.aspx

ARDE did work on fuzes for HSLD and these were made by OFB. Somehow they were prone to mishaps and OFB removed all traces of their involvement,
Same with ARDE.


I think the Director Of Artillery should give ARDE 6 months to put up or shut up on the PGK fuze they are developing.

As back-up he should give a development contract with Reshef to develop and produce this product in India for both artillery and mortars. It should also be adapted for Naval Guns.

Link to Contract Fuze Development by Reshef:


http://www.resheffuzes.com/page.aspx?id=10004

They can open an office in Pune to leverage the Armament R&D labs in that neighborhood.

This PGK fuze is that important.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2018 01:09

From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 09 Feb 2018 01:22

Rakesh wrote:From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.


^^^
We’ve now developed a small jet engine. We designed it from scratch and we were successful with the very first attempt. Now we are building a bigger jet engine and we will keep developing new things. We believe in spiral technology development.

What is the category of the jet engine that you have developed?

This is a smaller engine (for UAVs—unmanned aerial vehicles — and drones), and has about 120kg thrust. We will now target a 400kg thrust, then we will go to a helicopter engine, which is a 1,100kg thrust.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2018 01:29

^^^ Vinod Saar, check this out....so relevant to above....

You can't Make In India, if you don't Invent In India, says Nobel laureate
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 762289.cms

"The government of India, as well as politicians involved in decision making, should understand that you cannot have technology if you do not have strong basics in basic sciences. I know of the popular slogan here, 'Make In India', but you cannot Make In India if you do not Invent In India. And to Invent In India, you have to discover the basics in India," the Nobel laureate told TOI in an exclusive interview here. He said one can always rely on things that have been discovered elsewhere. "But I think it's important that if you want to have good people, good scientists, you have to attract them to science. To be attracted to science you need curiosity, you need to be driven by passion and curiosity," Haroche said.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 09 Feb 2018 01:35

My slogan was "You can't innovate what you don't make!"
he is standing it on its head.

There is a big movement worldwide to create innovation rather than adding 10% value and taking a cut.

This is so true:
\
"But I think it's important that if you want to have good people, good scientists, you have to attract them to science. To be attracted to science you need curiosity, you need to be driven by passion and curiosity," Haroche said.


I am very, very curious.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Eric Leiderman » 09 Feb 2018 05:20

tsarkar wrote:
Indranil wrote:Yes, there is hope. But why this long and winded process for desi products only?

Because for every desi product, there is a long and winded process for setting up a production line. You know production engineering well. A line had to be set up for BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas from zero. Same for ATAGS. The LSP is not so much for end user use but to set up the line, establish workflows & processes, Quality Control, subcontractor base and raw material supplier base. On the other hand, Lockheed etc had well established production processes.



The other possibility is shortage of capital funds for procurement. So it might be a combination of both these points

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 09 Feb 2018 06:22

Rakesh wrote:From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.

Image


Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. Mr Kalyani inspite of not having an assured revenue stream from the Military has invested personal wealth, time and efforts and strived to deliver something of value to our forces.
Last edited by Vips on 09 Feb 2018 18:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 09 Feb 2018 06:55

Vips wrote:
Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. A big slap on the face of the Tatas, Mahindras, Hindujas and others

Please pardon me for making this observation, but I will be frank

In school more than 45 years ago there was a hymn we were made to sing in which two lines went:

Which meant - the Lord's greatness can be shown by comparing with my smallness. I always felt - if the Lord is great - why compare with me? He is great on his own no? No need to compare with what I think are small fry.

Baba Kalyani's work is commendable but I doubt if it is necessary to "magnify Baba Kalyani and exalt his name" by putting down Tata and Mahindra. They are doing their own work in their way. No need to mock our own companies with a contemptuous dismissal to show up someone else as great.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 09 Feb 2018 10:43

Baba ji is just marketing his merchandise, no need to get emotional, and start name calling other Indian companies.

TCS I know works really hard, and has really invested in Indian defense sector. It's almost impossible to get into Indian Gov business for a private player, but they have been there patiently for a long time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Feb 2018 14:53

Vips wrote:
Rakesh wrote:From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.

Image


Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. A big slap on the face of the Tatas, Mahindras, Hindujas and others who have business of hundreds of crores every year as suppliers to the Indian armed forces but have not done any ground breaking work so far for the armed forces.
Mr Kalyani inspite of not having an assured revenue stream from the Military has invested personal wealth, time and efforts and strived to deliver something of value to our forces.


BF also has a lot of business including about 50 pct or higher of all tank tread assemblies. BK worked hard to get it and had to convince erstwhile RM. Tata SED has made significant effort as well. L&T has also made a lot of effort.

So here is the thing. Either your rephrase your message and show some knowledge and maturity and show that you have earned the right to post here and not in the newbie forum or I delete it and warn you. Your choice sir.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Feb 2018 15:17

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:Thanks. Great summary. Lots of info to digest and how messed up we are.


So BEL fuze facility is tie-up with Reshef of Israel.

http://www.resheffuzes.com/index.aspx

ARDE did work on fuzes for HSLD and these were made by OFB. Somehow they were prone to mishaps and OFB removed all traces of their involvement,
Same with ARDE.


I think the Director Of Artillery should give ARDE 6 months to put up or shut up on the PGK fuze they are developing.

As back-up he should give a development contract with Reshef to develop and produce this product in India for both artillery and mortars. It should also be adapted for Naval Guns.

Link to Contract Fuze Development by Reshef:


http://www.resheffuzes.com/page.aspx?id=10004

They can open an office in Pune to leverage the Armament R&D labs in that neighborhood.

This PGK fuze is that important.



Sir you are falling in the same trap - DG arty has no authority to give contracts and decide who will develop. He cannot even allow a pvt gun to be tested (a decision which has no financial implication) - ministry rapped his predecessor. How can he take financial decisions and tell OFB anything. What he can certainly do is to say that this fuse is very important and that Dhanush will fail without it and put it on record for ministry and OFB. He can also ‘make a case’ for giving a time bound deadline to OFB and then giving order to Israelis. But the case will have to go through the full proceedure. Infact if you read DPP AON section you will see that for AON amongst many other things - DRDO has to give NOC ie no objextion certificate. Army has to explain the tactical use of the equipment and justify to Joint Secy (who has probably no knowledge nor interest) why this equipment is needed and how it will be used of battlefield , what is currently used and why this is better, can tactics be changed to carry on with current etc etc. Files fly back and forth for months at this stage trying to explain this to the Jt Secretary. Very frustrating and quite a professionally humiliating process. That’s just at AON stage. Then we have the other stages, single vendor etc.

Unless of course the Israeli company is already supplying some fuses and it can be classified as the same category. That will definitely make things faster.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 09 Feb 2018 15:25

With procedure described as above it is hardly surprising that it takes decades for new items to be inducted in the forces.

More than anything else we need to fix the procurement process and make it time bound and officials accountable for delays. That is attributable to the actions of the particular official

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Feb 2018 15:25

Ramana sir perhaps we can try to get your findings re the side slap, fuse issue to AHQ. I’ll pm you.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Feb 2018 15:32

Pratyush wrote:With procedure described as above it is hardly surprising that it takes decades for new items to be inducted in the forces.

More than anything else we need to fix the procurement process and make it time bound and officials accountable for delays. That is attributable to the actions of the particular official


This is just one small part. There are many more steps that include CCS approval and finance ministry concurring with CCS. Note this - by some miracle even if you manage to get to CCS approval it means nothing. Absolutely nothing because the DPP is based on 15 year perspective plan and 5 years defence plan but orders are placed base on annual budget. So this process pretty much has 0 correlation with actual buying. Because parliament sanctions annua budget through finance bill not long term procurements based on five year defence plan.

And yes responsibility and accountability has to be fixed as you say. Armed forces are howling for it for decades. But as Vidurji says ‘they have no currency’.

It’s a bloody joke. Read the DPM seriously. It’s great fun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 09 Feb 2018 18:16

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Vips wrote:
Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. A big slap on the face of the Tatas, Mahindras, Hindujas and others who have business of hundreds of crores every year as suppliers to the Indian armed forces but have not done any ground breaking work so far for the armed forces.
Mr Kalyani inspite of not having an assured revenue stream from the Military has invested personal wealth, time and efforts and strived to deliver something of value to our forces.


BF also has a lot of business including about 50 pct or higher of all tank tread assemblies. BK worked hard to get it and had to convince erstwhile RM. Tata SED has made significant effort as well. L&T has also made a lot of effort.

So here is the thing. Either your rephrase your message and show some knowledge and maturity and show that you have earned the right to post here and not in the newbie forum or I delete it and warn you. Your choice sir.


Right sir. I have edited my post.

Fact remains that he has treaded on a path which others before him could have easily done instead of just relying on assured orders year after year. I remember reading a news article (not an interview) many years back of Mr Kalyani's struggle in trying to convince the defence ministry of his ability to make a artillery gun. He had to wait more than 5 years just getting the permission to use Army's range to test the gun!! The other Pvt players who are now getting to test their wares at the army ranges are just piggy backing on his efforts.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Feb 2018 18:58

Thanks Vips. I like Baba Kalyani too but remember he is a promoter so has more freedom to pivot the company to a direction he wants. For Tata SED CEO there are many stakeholders within Tatas he needs to convince and year they have shown commitment.

Re testing of B52 as I have said countless times army gabe permission right away but we’re rapped on knuckles by the govt.

Personally I think Baba is visionary. But there are others as well.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby darshhan » 09 Feb 2018 19:23

Vips wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
BF also has a lot of business including about 50 pct or higher of all tank tread assemblies. BK worked hard to get it and had to convince erstwhile RM. Tata SED has made significant effort as well. L&T has also made a lot of effort.

So here is the thing. Either your rephrase your message and show some knowledge and maturity and show that you have earned the right to post here and not in the newbie forum or I delete it and warn you. Your choice sir.


Right sir. I have edited my post.

Fact remains that he has treaded on a path which others before him could have easily done instead of just relying on assured orders year after year. I remember reading a news article (not an interview) many years back of Mr Kalyani's struggle in trying to convince the defence ministry of his ability to make a artillery gun. He had to wait more than 5 years just getting the permission to use Army's range to test the gun!! The other Pvt players who are now getting to test their wares at the army ranges are just piggy backing on his efforts.


Vips, But would you had still admired BK the same, if you were a shareholder in BF and there were negative financial implications due to such decisions of Baba ji.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 09 Feb 2018 19:49

Sirji In all sincerity Yes. If you see the total funds would be less than 1% of his turnover so in that sense not a big risk. What was important was the intent in trying to initiate/develop/make something sorely needed by us. Only proves to show that if someone with expertise and money were to take the initiative they could achieve wonders here. Baba Kalyani proved it many times first with the Guns and then the 3 different Jet engines.

Sadly majority of the other private players are only jockeying to grab an increased share of the defence pie just by relying on the offset programs of GOI and then doing screwdrivergiri to get the revenue.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 10 Feb 2018 20:31

Kalyani’s new ultra light howitzer - called Garuda 105 - is out and may be sent to the Army for trials this year. Picture is there in the link below.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 9059646464

As a side note, please follow the above on Twitter. You get good info, without the drama.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 10 Feb 2018 21:11

Hoping for some positive news soon about the winter rials (in Sikkim) of the 52 Cal guns. Its nearly a month since they started. Jingo is looking forward to reading about new world records and the overall success of the test.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 10 Feb 2018 21:17

Rakesh wrote:Kalyani’s new ultra light howitzer - called Garuda 105 - is out and may be sent to the Army for trials this year. Picture is there in the link below.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 9059646464

As a side note, please follow the above on Twitter. You get good info, without the drama.


GOI should equip the BSF on the pakistani Border with these guns. Static light field guns in service with BSF can be replaced.The rapid mobility and strike force of this guns would cause quite a khujli under the brown shalwars.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2018 01:19

Vips wrote:Hoping for some positive news soon about the winter rials (in Sikkim) of the 52 Cal guns. Its nearly a month since they started. Jingo is looking forward to reading about new world records and the overall success of the test.



Vips, good news lead 40 LSP @ 2 suppliers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Katare » 11 Feb 2018 01:59

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:https://www.telegraphindia.com/1160908/jsp/nation/story_107004.jsp

From the same link,
Each operational commander, designated as competent financial authority, will have two ceilings for the amount of funds he can spend at a time: one defined by consultation with an internal/integrated financial auditor and another that the commander may make at his own discretion subject to government conditions.


So spending power lies with Integrated Financial Auditor who is more powerful than the General/Admiral.

They are from Indian Defence Accounts Service, a Group A Civil Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Services_of_India

I know a hilarious case of a Commander, whose wife joined IDAS after marriage, and later on became IFA to Flag Officer C-in-C Western Naval Command. In official functions, she sat next to Admiral. She was allocated a bungalow equivalent to the Admiral while her husband was on the waitlist for a flat. The entire NWWA hierarchy went red faced and topsy turvy with every woman member cursing women's empowerment :rotfl:


I don’t think this is any different than what happens in the private sector or anywhere else in the government. Without an accountant running PNL, NPV, IRR and such matrixs and counter signing it no business authority can sign off on the expenses. They are the one who prepare the paper work and ensure it is in accordance with the govt procedures before the actual authorities can sign it. These are glorified versions of the bade babu in anf infian office. Nothing gets paid/signed or passed untill proper amount of grease is aplied at his desk. Although the rot runs a lot deep in govt than private sector

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2018 03:32

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Ramana sir perhaps we can try to get your findings re the side slap, fuse issue to AHQ. I’ll pm you.

Will work on it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 11 Feb 2018 17:19

Ramana Sir, i missed out on the news about the LSP for the 52 Cal guns, Thanks. :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 11 Feb 2018 21:40

Rakesh wrote:Kalyani’s new ultra light howitzer - called Garuda 105 - is out and may be sent to the Army for trials this year. Picture is there in the link below.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 9059646464

As a side note, please follow the above on Twitter. You get good info, without the drama.

Both those guns in the picture have been displayed for the last few years. They call the 105 mm the ultra light field gun. The ultra light howitzer that is being readied for the trials later this year is a 155mm gun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 11 Feb 2018 22:24

The Babudom habit of doing things peace meal is alive and licking. After multiple years, the 52 cals are being tested. Now after further delay, the other guns will be tested. When both the guns are all ready why cant it be tested together to avoid further delays?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2018 23:51

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/964970031791640576 --> OFB's 155 mm/45 calibre Dhanush howitzer is headed into another round of trials. This is expected to be the final round of trials before the indent for 114 units is actually executed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2018 02:21

Don't know where to put this. But there is a very interesting Tender out by PXE, DRDO

Fabrication of (10) movable shelter for fixed gun mount of 120mm MBT Arjun. The base is concrete. Just for testing or preparation for mounting along the borders

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 23 Feb 2018 02:45

PXE, is testing place. So.most likely fixed mount for testing.


---
added later:

Yes Its most likely a shelter for the fixed mount gun.

Aberdeen proving grounds in US also has fixed gun for proof testing of projectiles.

Most likely its for new Arjun projectiles.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2018 02:56

True. But 10?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 23 Feb 2018 07:00

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/964970031791640576 --> OFB's 155 mm/45 calibre Dhanush howitzer is headed into another round of trials. This is expected to be the final round of trials before the indent for 114 units is actually executed.

Every time a fresh round of trials occur, a new set of "defects"/"enhancements" are "discovered" to be again validated in another "final" trials ...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Feb 2018 10:50

Indranil wrote:True. But 10?


Given the way our procurement system works atleast it is 10 and not 2.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2018 01:15

Akshay, I have been looking at the 155mm projectiles dimensions.

I notice that most 155mm guns have 1 in 20 calibers rifling.
This is a long ago set parameter for the M107 type shell.
Later the EERFB/BB & BT shells which are more aerodynamic to develop the greater range and are longer than the M107 shells. and the rifling is the same as before.

Now intuitively not using math here ( 8) ), the longer shell needs more spin to stabilize it in the barrel and outside. This reduces the wobble as a slower spin has more probability to be unstable. Remember the lattu wobbles at a slower speed than at high speed. Higher spin will overcome any mfg tolerances for off-axis for the CG.
To get more spin it has to have faster rifling or shell has to be fired at a higher charge to get more muzzle velocity as the spin rate is a function of rifling and muzzle velocity.

Manjugu, Can you run this by your friends?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2018 01:20

here is a discussion using a 22 bullet.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... n-zediker/

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Will » 24 Feb 2018 18:59

http://idrw.org/atags-bang-for-the-buck/#more-163348

Was wondering how the army hadn't voiced its reservations on a non strategic indigenous project yet . Well as they say some will never disappointment. :twisted: As expected its the "weight" issue a la Arjun. If the ATAGS is 20 tonnes then there is a valid weight issue. But the import lobby never disappoints :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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