Artillery: News & Discussion

Singha
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 May 2018 21:53

i saw a program on history channel called "firepower:indian army" a kind of exercise by a mixed band of T90 tank, then artillery unit, then a MMG+AGS unit, then a infantry squad from a IFV

in the artillery, the FH77 with its APU driver moved into position easily
the D30 need a dozen men to exert a lot of effort to move into position, including some climbing atop the barrel to force it down by sheer bodyweight.
the 105mm were manhandled , and easier than D30 for sure.
it definitely affects the fatigue levels over a long hot day of pounding the enemy if the gun can move and turn on its own.

the 30 grenade box mag of the AGS17 puts out a impressive barrage of fire.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 22 May 2018 05:02

India's first long-range artillery gun `Dhanush' set for trial this week.

Dhanush, the first long-range artillery gun developed indigenously by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and manufactured by Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), will undergo trial in Jaisalmer’s Pokhran sometime this week.

The test of the first indigenous, 155 mm long-range artillery gun 'Dhanush' will be conducted at Jaisalmer's Pokhran field firing range in the presence of representatives of Indian Army technical officers and GCF experts.

Along with the trial of its long-range firepower, the performance of 'Dhanush' in the summer heat and other adverse conditions will also be tested.

'Dhanush' has been developed by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and manufactured by Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF). The trial of 'Dhanush' which was going on for the last five years had initially faced some major hiccups over the ammunition used.

Two years back, while the trial was going on, a shell had burst in the barrel owing to which further trials had to be stopped. The issue was, however, resolved after a successful upgradation in the Balasore range of Odisha.

Known as an upgraded version of Sweden's Bofors gun, more than 80 per cent of its parts are built indigenously. Bofors could hit targets at a distance of 29 km, while the Dhanush can hit the target at a distance of 38 km.

In comparison to Bofors, which works on hydraulic system, the Indian version operates under electronic systems. With the help of night vision device, it can hit targets in the night.

It uses 125-mm shells and can fire 5 to 6 shells in a minute. More than 400 Dhanush guns are expected to be acquired by the Army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 22 May 2018 07:34

Singha wrote:i saw a program on history channel called "firepower:indian army" a kind of exercise by a mixed band of T90 tank, then artillery unit, then a MMG+AGS unit, then a infantry squad from a IFV

in the artillery, the FH77 with its APU driver moved into position easily
the D30 need a dozen men to exert a lot of effort to move into position, including some climbing atop the barrel to force it down by sheer bodyweight.
the 105mm were manhandled , and easier than D30 for sure.
it definitely affects the fatigue levels over a long hot day of pounding the enemy if the gun can move and turn on its own.

the 30 grenade box mag of the AGS17 puts out a impressive barrage of fire.




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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pravula » 22 May 2018 08:22

Geo locked.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 22 May 2018 09:54

Kalyani's 155mm arty piece has a range of 48km!
They also have light-weight pieces of 4.5 t with a hybrid model still lighter.Good details in the F mag.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 23 May 2018 03:18

What is the accuracy claimed for the ATAGS rounds?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 24 May 2018 04:33

ATAGS.1000 rounds fired.Consistency and accuracy described as " very good" .Other party products are Bharat 52, Bharat 45 and Garuda 105.
The ULH "futuristic" piece is called the 155/39.Weighs 4.8t with conventional recoil.The hybrid advanced recoil reduces weight even further to less than 4.5t.Both guns proof fired at P-2 pressure in March.Can be transported by battlefield helos.One presumes our MI-17s very definitely the MI-26s.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vonkabra » 25 May 2018 16:08

From the Week's interview with Dr Christopher:

What about the towed guns? The army has not had a gun in the last quarter century.

There are issues over range and accuracy, when developing a gun. If you ask for extended range, you have to be prepared to dilute on other factors, like accuracy. We made three ATAGS [Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System] for the Army. We were happy to take Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman to Pokhran to witness ATAGS firing [trials]. We have to do many more trials.


https://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/2018/05/18/interview-s-christopher-chairman-drdo.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 30 May 2018 18:05

Upgraded Pinaka rocket successfully test-fired.

An upgraded version of Pinaka rocket, with a guidance system and an enhanced range, was successfully test-fired from the Proof & Experiment Establishment (PXE) at Chandipur in Odisha today.

"Two rounds of tests have been conducted and some more rounds have been planned," said a defence source here.

The earlier Pinaka version, which was an unguided one, has now been upgraded into a guided version, with a navigation, guidance and control kit developed by the Research Centre Hyderabad, he said.

The RCI comes under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

According to a source in the DRDO, the conversion helped in enhancing the range and accuracy of Pinaka.

If its range was earlier 40 km, it is more than 70 km now, he said.

"Radars, electro-optical systems and telemetry systems at the defence range at Chandipur, tracked and monitored the rocket all through its flight path. The guided version is Pinaka mark-II, which evolved from Pinaka mark-I," the source said.

The success of the guided Pinaka has reinforced the technological strength of the country in converting the unguided systems into weapons of high precision, he added.

The guided Pinaka was developed jointly by the Armament Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad.

The PXE, Chandipur, provided the range and launch support.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 30 May 2018 21:44

I wonder if the Dhanush final trials are over.
And the M777 firing tables using OFB ammo.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 31 May 2018 07:13

The Dhanush hot weather trials were supposed to last for 3-4 weeks, so would not know till mid june.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JTull » 06 Jun 2018 17:24

Final trials of ‘Dhanush’ underway

Testing of indigenous weapons/artillery is in continuous progression at Pokhran field firing range in Jaisalmer. And this time, first indigenous, long-range artillery gun ‘Dhanush’ (Deshi Bofors) is being tested finally after two years.

Developed by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and manufactured by Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), the trails of Dhanush have been going on for five years. Earlier, it had faced some major hiccups regarding ammunition used in it. The existing Dhanush can hit target at 38km and the improved version, which has the capacity to hit target at 42 km, is undergoing final trials in Pokhran. After that it will be handed over to the Army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2018 21:27

So what is the new improved Dhanush with 42 km range they are talking about? Is it the 52 cal version?
Of just the ERFB/BT shells?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2018 17:13


A Sharma
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby A Sharma » 08 Jun 2018 05:43

Smerch rockets from Russia hit targets during Pokhran trial

This rocket too will have the feature to change direction after firing. There is agreement between both countries to make this weapon at ordnance factories in India. At the time of war, if army finds that missile has gone in other direction then it can change the direction through remote control. This rocket after getting fired will hit the target at any condition.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Jun 2018 08:31

lets hope army does not ask for 10 major and 133 minor improvements and then Nth round of trials.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 08 Jun 2018 13:30

Nth round of summer winter highalt lowalt underwater tests !!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Jun 2018 14:15

manjgu wrote:Nth round of summer winter highalt lowalt underwater tests !!

Not sure if it has been discussed earlier, but couldnt find it through my search but
1. given that we have both hot and cold environment, can't a more efficient way be designed for concurrent summer/winter testing? If altitude tec is a concern then is it not possible to create controlled chambers for launch
2. And if it is essential to have separate trials, then can't we have horses for courses kind of approach, where guns/specifications tested in summer or hot areas be used for those only.
3. If war were to happen, a less tested gun will always work better than an absent gun
Not to question the judgment of those who are running the program, but we can't have all the lights green before we leave home for a journey. Happy to be corrected

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 08 Jun 2018 14:29



From the link

Last year, the missile missed the target and fell in residential hamlet, so necessary modification were made and lacking were rectified in the missile


Any idea what the problem was? Was it in the missile itself or the targetting and control systems or something else?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 08 Jun 2018 16:30

Manish_P wrote:


From the link

Last year, the missile missed the target and fell in residential hamlet, so necessary modification were made and lacking were rectified in the missile


Any idea what the problem was? Was it in the missile itself or the targetting and control systems or something else?


It would have to be waaaay off the mark to have deviated from the target and land all the way in residential area. As every precaution must have been taken to avoid the residential area by a good margin.

MOre interestingly:

Meanwhile, sources said that DRDO is also working on PINAKA Mark-3 multi barrel rocket launcher. PINAKA Mark-2 can hit up to 60 km, whereas updated PINAKA Mark-3 can hit up to 90km and even more. DRDO is planning to develop new rocket with more range than that of Russian-supplied smerch rockets.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 08 Jun 2018 17:03

JayS wrote:It would have to be waaaay off the mark to have deviated from the target and land all the way in residential area. As every precaution must have been taken to avoid the residential area by a good margin.



Exactly that, actually. It's not a new, untested system as such. Neither is the IA inexperienced in rocket artillery. My first instinct was about some glitch/mistake in the targeting but these words intrigued me 'rectified in the missile' Hence i wondered.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Jun 2018 17:19

This glitch has to be one of the reasons why missile testing operations are covered by fire insurance in India.

But imagine if the same glitch manifested in pinaka mk2.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesha » 08 Jun 2018 21:27

Dhanush artillery gun clears final test, ready for induction: Official

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 511167.cms

India's first indigenous, long-range artillery gun "Dhanush" has passed its final test at Pokhran, paving the way for its induction into the Army, a senior official said today.
Between June 2-6, fifty rounds of shells each were fired from six Dhanush guns, Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) Senior General Manager SK Singh told reporters here today.

"Six guns in battery formation (at one go and at one target) successfully fired 101 rounds on June 7," Singh informed.

He said that the GCF got the Dhanush project in October 2011 and the first prototype was made in 2014. Later, 11 more prototypes were made from which 4,200 rounds were fired.

The gun has passed tests under severe cold conditions in Sikkim and Leh and in hot and humid weather in Balasore, Odisha, Babina in Jhansi and in the desert of Pokhran in Rajasthan, Singh said.

He said that during the trial in Pokhran a year ago, the muzzle and barrel of the howitzer exploded two times.

A probe by different Ministry of Defence departments into the two incidents, however, did not find any fault with the gun, Singh said, adding that Dhanush is among the finest artillery guns in terms of accuracy.

It has a strike range of 38 kilometres and 81 per cent of its components are indigenously sourced, the official said.
This, he said, would be scaled up to 90 per cent by 2019.
Singh said that 12 guns would be supplied to the Army in the current fiscal while the total number for the initial phase is 114 guns.

He said that, under an agreement to be inked soon, a total of 414 Dhanush guns would be supplied to the Army.

Manufactured by the Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), each of the 155-mm gun costs about Rs 14.50 crore while each shell costs Rs one lakh, a former top official of the factory said.

Besides features like electronic gun-laying and sighting systems, the indigenous gun's hitting range was 11 km more than the imported Bofors guns, he added.

"The Dhanush project has received support and active cooperation from other ordinance factories and PSUs such as SAIL, BEL, and many private sector companies. Their support has made the project a huge success," he said.
The gun has been developed by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Kolkata, after going through design documents running into over 12,000 pages.

These documents were given to India as part of the first phase of "Transfer of Technology" (ToT) under the Bofors gun deal inked in the late 1980s, he added.

The Swedish Bofors company (now owned by Britain's BAE System) could not complete the ToT for the 155mm x 39mm calibre howitzer as the deal got embroiled in a major political row over alleged kickbacks.

Subsequently, the OFB struggled for long to produce the howitzer indigenously, he said.

This was despite the fact that it had manufactured and supplied several components and spares to keep the Bofors howitzers operational in India, especially during the Kargil War.

"The Army had been desperately looking for 155mm howitzers for more than three decades. It had roped in an Israeli company, Soltam, to upgrade the imported, Russian-made 130mm gun to 155mm at GCF. But the project, after the upgraded gun's trial, ran into issues of alleged kickbacks," the former official claimed.

Six years ago, the Defence Acquisition Council had decided to look for artillery guns within the country and asked OFB to start manufacturing howitzers.

Towards that end, former Defence Minister A K Antony inaugurated a 155-mm gun manufacturing facility at GCF on September 22, 2012.

According to defence experts, the Army needs a huge number of howitzers of different types, and Indian firms, some in partnership with foreign manufacturers, are in the race to fulfil the demand. COR LAL MAS BNM RT RT

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Jun 2018 23:02

A Sharma wrote:Smerch rockets from Russia hit targets during Pokhran trial

This rocket too will have the feature to change direction after firing. There is agreement between both countries to make this weapon at ordnance factories in India. At the time of war, if army finds that missile has gone in other direction then it can change the direction through remote control. This rocket after getting fired will hit the target at any condition.


Very badly written article. And worse no editing.
Key fact rectified Smerch test fired.
Will decode after going home.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby krishna_krishna » 09 Jun 2018 07:25

manjgu wrote:Nth round of summer winter highalt lowalt underwater tests !!


Very pathetic state of affairs, I am afraid it will go this way with 10K modifications suggested and again tests. By in now any impartial professional army you would see from DG arty to chief tweeting on how satisfied they are with our indigenous capability and proud to induct Dhanush ASAP.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Katare » 09 Jun 2018 07:50

Years before it was clear that it is a great gun to all including to army yet outdated procedures or rigid mentality held up the production. Which gun has not suffered and than rectified barrel and muzzle brusts, holding up production because of washers, nuts and misaligned components on chassis for years shows need for procedural reforms.

An indigenous product should be cleared for initial production, at least, as soon as all major performance factors have been demonstrated successfully. If Army determines that basic design and mfg is sound and lingering issues like teething pains are addressable it should start procurement immediately. Creating a 100% trouble free product takes a long time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby darshhan » 09 Jun 2018 11:38

Dhanush did come with one disadvantage in terms of organisational backing. The project's main backer in IA was the then chief Gen VK Singh himself. His tenure was scuttled by then current political dispensation and afterwards the powers that be proceeded to dismantle his legacy in everything constructive that was done by him.

When they didnt hesitate to destroy TSD, what chance Dhanush had? It is only a matter of fate that current rulers are substantially more nationalistic and hence the project is still prodding along.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2018 21:16

@SJha1618
3h3 hours ago
More
And during this last round of user exploitation trials for the Dhanush howitzer, Bi-modular Charge Systems (up to Zone 6) from both OFB's Nalanda factory as well imported ones from France and South Africa were used.


I don't think any more reasons can be given for delaying the induction of OFB's 155 mm / 45 calibre Dhanush howitzer. Between June 2-6, six production level prototypes fired some 300 rounds. And on June 7, 101 rounds were fired by these six units without incident.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 10 Jun 2018 10:08

The development trials showed barrel gets worn out around 3000 rounds.
So these guns are in first quartile. OFB needs to make spare barrels for future.
Thats all.

I like the Dhanush for its affordability and as better than the Soltam upgrade.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Haridas » 10 Jun 2018 23:45

Take a bow Ramana for your accurate technical assessment from open source litrature, of the eventual root cause of barrel burst during Dhanush field trials and presstitute call for failed indian gun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 10 Jun 2018 23:58

As per General VK Singh, first basic prototypes of Dhanush have been firing since 2013. That means almost 6 years of testing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2018 00:00

Haridas wrote:Take a bow Ramana for your accurate technical assessment from open source litrature, of the eventual root cause of barrel burst during Dhanush field trials and presstitute call for failed indian gun.

+108 Haridas-Ji!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 11 Jun 2018 00:03

ramana wrote:The development trials showed barrel gets worn out around 3000 rounds.
So these guns are in first quartile. OFB needs to make spare barrels for future.
Thats all.

I like the Dhanush for its affordability and as better than the Soltam upgrade.


Do you mean to say, barrel gets worn out after "1000" full power rounds?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 11 Jun 2018 00:24

Let me be an outlier here and defend IA's testing procedure.

Imagine you are DG Artillery and OFB comes to you with a brand new howitzer. The unit, who has a history of supplying quality deficient product(where IA has lost men due to this) and never on time, would you trust a brand new product from it? I wouldn't.

If I was in his shoes, I would also demand OFB product be tested until the Artillery corp is satisfied, even it takes 6 years. I don't want to loose men in accidents.

Once the 45 caliber has gone through the entire cycle, I expect Artillery to have more trust in the product and 52 caliber will have a shorter test cycle.

Just as Akash had a very long testing cycle, upgraded Akash with a seeker had a very short test cycle.

ATAGS seems to have a shorter testing cycle than Dhanush. So let's not blame IA. They are being professional.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 11 Jun 2018 01:41

ramana wrote:The development trials showed barrel gets worn out around 3000 rounds.
So these guns are in first quartile. OFB needs to make spare barrels for future.
Thats all.


ramanaji

Was your assessmen conveyed to he power that be?

If they do not replace barrels in time, the guns will fail again after a couple of years of use, and they will ask to stop production at that time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jun 2018 07:07

The barrel life is always defined as EFC. once it goes beyond EFC the barrel needs changing. Every arty man knows that.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby darshhan » 11 Jun 2018 08:05

ramana wrote:The development trials showed barrel gets worn out around 3000 rounds.
So these guns are in first quartile. OFB needs to make spare barrels for future.
Thats all.

I like the Dhanush for its affordability and as better than the Soltam upgrade.


Still much better than tank barrels whose life is measured in 100s of rounds. Is the metallaurgy for both that different?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2018 08:36

Maybe tank barrels need higher accuracy rating also
Arty have a bigger cep thing due to 40kg warhead

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 14 Jun 2018 17:41

Cross post from the Armoured Thread

nam wrote:
Norwegian munition manufacturer Nammo revealed at Eurosatory that it is developing a ramjet-assisted, INS/GPS-guided round for 155 mm L52 artillery pieces that will extend the range of precision fires out to 100 km and beyond.


Although it would sound like a wonderful idea, this is the usual over expensive, over engineered ideas looking for a market.

At 100kms the target you would want to hit will a large one like airfield or factories or storage. How many of these rounds can you fire? Just a normal guided shell is uber expensive. This one will more expensive than those. And all for a 45 kg warhead?

You are are better off using air launched glide weapon with a large warhead. Artillery are meant to cheap and something you can fire in thousands and constantly..


Or rocket artillery like Pinaka

I agree that this seems to be a border-line over engineered idea. But it might be useful if these shells can be fired from existing artillery pieces. Kind of like a designated marksman/sharpshooter within a squad

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2018 21:54

I dont think a army division engaged in combat will want to recon and strike targets 100km behind a active battlefront. they will leave it to airpower and SRBMs each of whom can deliver 300-1000kg of warhead in one shot.

sniping at some small point target 100km out is useless in a conventional war. might have some utility in colonial bush wars...like small convoys of vehicles in eastern syria meets resistance and needs support from limited fixed firebases....they will gap fill the lack of tactical airpower


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