Artillery: News & Discussion

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 12 Jan 2016 06:39

rohitvats wrote:Armored Divisions.

But only partially. 150 guns translates into ~8 regiments @18 guns/regiment. An artillery bde will have at least 4 regiments which translates into 12 regiments in total between three armored divisions. So, balance four could be the mounted/wheeled SP arty guns.

That would be Dhanush? We would need to induct them in big numbers to supplement and eventually replace our existing Howitzers, no?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Jan 2016 09:53

Kashi wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Armored Divisions.

But only partially. 150 guns translates into ~8 regiments @18 guns/regiment. An artillery bde will have at least 4 regiments which translates into 12 regiments in total between three armored divisions. So, balance four could be the mounted/wheeled SP arty guns.
That would be Dhanush? We would need to induct them in big numbers to supplement and eventually replace our existing Howitzers, no?

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was Wheeled SP Arty system - which is basically same as tracked SP arty but on wheels instead of tracks. But there was one report which spoke about wheeled SP arty category having been scrapped altogether. If that be the case, it would mean balance arty is going to be from 814 Mounted Gun Systems.

Dhanush is towed arty system.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2016 03:09

RV, Most likely it will be more tracked guns. For commonality and unit price reduction.

Any chance of the other Arty brigades getting them for the pivot corps?

Once they have the basic system better to get more.
Do they have Inde Artillery brigades which can be attached as needed.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 13 Jan 2016 03:46

rohitvats wrote: Armored Divisions.

But only partially. 150 guns translates into ~8 regiments @18 guns/regiment. An artillery bde will have at least 4 regiments which translates into 12 regiments in total between three armored divisions. So, balance four could be the mounted/wheeled SP arty guns.

We need 3 regiments for each AD (=9 regiments) + 1 regiment for each Strike Corps (=3 regiments). Total = 12 regiments = 216@12/regiment or 252@21/regiment. I bet the follow on order will be >50.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2016 05:35

^^^ What about the Independent Armored Brigades? Wouldn't they need any attached tracked guns?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jan 2016 07:41

abhishek_sharma wrote:Army to get K9 Vajra-T howitzers

Looks like supersonic shock wave behind the shell

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jan 2016 07:45

A Sharma wrote:
Pinaka battery consists of six launchers, each equipped with 12 rockets. Capable of carrying a payload of more than 100 kg, Pinaka went into development in 1986 and production in 1998. Having proven its mettle during Kargil, indigenous Pinaka MBRL mounted on a Tatra truck can act as a force-multiplier as an Area Weapon System while firing a salvo of 12 High Explosive (HE) rockets in 44 seconds and neutralizing a marked area of 3.9 sq km. This thermo-baric ammunition has become even more lethal while being able to operate from a mobile launcher at extreme temperature ranges of -10 degrees Celsius to 55 degrees Celsius or so, with a quicker reaction time and capability to carry various kinds of warheads. The MBRL system can work in various modes including autonomous mode while being controlled by a fire control computer, standalone mode, manual mode or remote mode etc.

Folks. I beg your pardon. It is not my intention to start a flamewar or mock anyone.

But what is the difference between Pinaka II and SDB in terms of applicability for a country like India?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jan 2016 08:14

ramana wrote:RV, Most likely it will be more tracked guns. For commonality and unit price reduction.

Any chance of the other Arty brigades getting them for the pivot corps?

Once they have the basic system better to get more.
Do they have Inde Artillery brigades which can be attached as needed.

ramana - ideal situation is for each armored division to be fully equipped with SP Tracked Arty system. That itself takes the requirement to 4 x 3 = 12 regiments and total of 216 systems. If we bring Independent Armored and Mechanized brigades into picture, we're talking about double this number - 24 regiments and ~450 units. But I've a strong feeling that outside of armored divisions, IA favors the Mounted Gun System (MGS). The (I) armored bdes and RAPID in Pivot Corps are likely to go with MGS.

I don't know whether there are any independent artillery brigades left in the army. The artillery divisions (total:03) owe their genesis to amalgamation of some or all independent artillery brigades that IA had.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 18 Jan 2016 23:20

Gunners of Indian Artillery display their prowess and deadly firepower

PUNE: The gunners of the Indian Artillery displayed their prowess and deadly firepower at 'Exercise Sarvatra Prahar', which was conducted recently at the School of Artillery at Devlali, Nasik.

The exercise was conducted through a tactical situation requiring an appreciation of the operation and preparation of an Artillery fire plan in support of the operation.

The exercise was aimed at providing firsthand experience of effect of various types of artillery in battle field to defence forces officers. A large number of school children and NCC cadets from the nearby schools were also invited so as to motivate the young minds and give them a glimpse of the might of the Indian Army's Artillery Corps.

During the exercise a plethora of equipment was employed, showcasing the might of the Regiment of Artillery. The entire range of guns, from the indigenous 120 mm Mortars, 155 mm Soltam, 105 mm Indian Field Gun, 105 mm Light Field Gun, 130 mm Medium Gun to the sophisticated 155 mm FH 77B Bofors and 122 mm Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher GRAD BM 21, demonstrated their awesome and destructive power.

The gunners demonstrated accuracy, consistency and the overwhelming power of the Artillery by simultaneous engagement of targets with a number of guns.

An array of new generation rocket and missile systems like Pinaka, Smerch and a model of Brahmos missile were displayed. Surveillance and Target Acquisition equipment like the Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, Surveillance Sensors and Weapon Locating Radars were also showcased during the exercise. These devices, when used in conjunction with the guns, are capable of enhancing the effect of fire power, thereby acting as force multipliers.

A special draw was the combat free fall by Special Forces team and Cheetah and Chetak helicopters flown by Army Aviators which demonstrated the flying skill of pilots as they airlifted a 120mm mortar as part of the exercise for delivering firepower resources in inaccessible areas.

The event was witnessed by officers of Defence Services Staff College, Wellington, Military Institute of Technology, Pune, College of Military Engineering (CME) and cadets from the prestigious National Defence Academy (NDA), Pune. Lieutenant General J George, Commandant, School of Artillery, interacted with various participants and delegations who attended the event.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 18:13

a while back I had posted this pic from a defexpo. OFB had taken the IFG 105mm, put it on back of a truck and offered it as a cheap SP gun that could be produced enmasse and be useful for short and medium range direct and indirect fire.

for all my effort, I was roundly booed and laughed out of the forum

well Samsung techwin is offering the same idea with some lipstick as the EVO-105

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 22 Jan 2016 18:50

Truck mounted arty guns were used effectively by the Peshmerga while taking on Daesh, and there are videos for it. It sure has potential.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Jan 2016 18:53

Don't we already have a product by OFB? I remember seeing a OFB product with 105 mm gun. Is it the gun in the first photo above?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 18:53

sometimes it takes small agile cos to show stodgy big cos what fast moving engg can do.

jihadis, kurds, levant militias have bolted everything to truck beds to form agile fast raiding units that can go anywhere. more complex tfta systems need much more support

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 18:54

yes but ofb was laughed out by ia ...its same pic

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 18:56

people say 105 mm cannot take down uber heavy concrete and stone covered ib loc bunkers. sure true.
but it can take out 95% things and cost 20% of a archer type iphone std 155mm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 19:00

people should let go of the vision of iphone std kit in every dept. even khan with its printing press cannot.

its time to put cycle and rickshaw workshops to work in the hinterland. leverage numbers like old soviet army did.
rip the world a new one. koi kuch ukhad nahi payega lets assure the world

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Jan 2016 19:04

At least we can give some to Afghans. They need all the help with ISIS or Taliban.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Jan 2016 19:06

deejay wrote:Truck mounted arty guns were used effectively by the Peshmerga while taking on Daesh, and there are videos for it. It sure has potential.

It's an elder brother of a technical, aka Toyota pickup trucks with a machine gun on the back. They can bring devastating results in an asymmetric conflict.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 22 Jan 2016 19:08

A drive up the mountainous narrow roads in Sikkim will show the indispensibility of truck mounted howitzers. No way can tracked guns or even Bofors with APUs be used here. Area too limited to maneuver in mountains.

Towed guns will take much longer time to be deployed. Not sure what IA's gameplan is here.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 22 Jan 2016 19:12

Thakur_B wrote:
deejay wrote:Truck mounted arty guns were used effectively by the Peshmerga while taking on Daesh, and there are videos for it. It sure has potential.
It's an elder brother of a technical, aka Toyota pickup trucks with a machine gun on the back. They can bring devastating results in an asymmetric conflict.

Yes, not just guns but small 04 / 6 / 12 round MBRLs, not always successful, have been in deployed in large numbers. The innovative low tech use of weaponry probably rigged at those cycle -rickshaw workshops as mentioned by Singha ji are out in large numbers all across the Levant.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 19:19

those water pipe hell cannons are another village innovation. fired with a long rope because none can be sure if it will blow apart.
rockets are also being fired from individual pipes propped by camera tripod type legs

armoured isis suicids vbied trucks packed wirh 100s kg of explosive drums. each is like a small nuke going up in mushroom cloud ferocity and blast area

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 19:38

many more interesting pics in that link

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jan 2016 21:19

Truck mounted 105 mm:

It was followed up by one mounted on a BPM-2. Both were offered to BSF but obviously nothing happened.

Waiting for the day that newspaper copywrighters will not have to add the mandatory last line "India has not inducted a single new artillery gun since the scandalous Bofors gun in 1980s".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2016 04:09

GD you need to transfer these posts to Levant thread.

Not here.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 23 Jan 2016 08:07

Hadn't Bharat Forge offered a truck-mounted 130mm gun to the army? Whatever happened to that proposal?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jan 2016 08:12

Kakkaji wrote:Hadn't Bharat Forge offered a truck-mounted 130mm gun to the army? Whatever happened to that proposal?

Army has a requirement for 814 truck mounted 155/52 guns and the purchase of the same has been cleared by the MOD. Bharat Forge had demonstrated a truck mounted 105mm gun with soft-recoil system. And there was some news about it working with the IA on this 105mm system.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 15 Feb 2016 11:17

US plans to sell M777 howitzers to India; deal to involve 'Make in India' component

The light artillery gun deal, worth over $700 million, will also involve a significant 'Make in India' component with Mahindra expected to bag a major share of the work contract.

Sources have told ET that the LOA, which is the final step from the US in a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract like this, has been finalised and is to be presented to South Block this week This would be followed by an acceptance from the Indian side and subsequently transfer of an advance after which deliveries of 145 guns would commence.

Unlike French Rafale, US has not increased price of M777, though the deal is in negotiations since 2008. It seems US has made up its mind vis-a-vis China. I think its a geopolitical move.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 15 Feb 2016 11:58

Possibly because there is plan B, C, D in this case.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Feb 2016 03:49

^^^^ Mega US howitzer deal to break Bofors jinx

NEW DELHI: India may finally exorcise its Bofors ghost of 30 years. After several years of hard-nosed negotiations, which also saw the proposed deal being stalled for a couple of years, the US government on Monday finally submitted an over $700 million offer for India to acquire 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers.

Sources said the Pentagon's "letter of offer and acceptance (LoA)", submitted to the Indian defence ministry under the American foreign military sales (FMS) programme, is now likely to lead to a government-to-government contract within 180 days.

"We are also at an advanced stage of mutually deciding the Indian partners in the deal, who will establish the AIT (assembly, integration and testing) facility here. While the first lot will be delivered directly, the bulk of the 145 howitzers (manufactured by BAE Systems) will be assembled in India over three years," said a ministry source.

The contract will entail a 30% offset clause, under which around $210 million will be invested back into India. The LoA for the M-777s comes at a time when India is incensed with the US decision to sell another eight F-16 fighters to Pakistan for $700 million.

But that is unlikely to impede the howitzer deal, with US having overtaken Russia, Israel and France to turn India's largest arms supplier over the last four years. Just since 2007, US has bagged Indian arms deals worth over $13 billion.

It was almost a decade ago that the 1.18-million strong Army had first demanded the induction of 155mm/39-calibre light-weight howitzers, which could be airlifted swiftly to "threatened highaltitude areas" along the 4,057-km LAC with China.

The air-mobile M-777s, partly made of titanium, have a strike range of over 25-km. They will help the Army somewhat address the stark military asymmetry with China, which has the infrastructure in place to swiftly mobilise troops and equipment to outnumber Indian forces 3:1along the LAC.

The Army has not been able to induct even one modern 155mm howitzer for over 30 years now because of recurring scandals, which began with the Swedish Bofors in the mid-1980s and was then followed by South African Denel, Israeli Soltam and Singapore Technology Kinetic's (STK) in later years. The M-777 is set to break the jinx.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 17 Feb 2016 16:21

BAE Systems down-selects Mahindra for assembling & testing M777 howitzers.

BAE Systems on Wednesday announced selection of Mahindra as its India partner for the nearly USD 700 million deal for the supply of 145 M777 howitzers, which are ultralight weight artillery guns having a strike range of 25 kms.The gun deal would be through Foreign Military Sales (FMS) but the "spares, maintenance and ammunition will be operated through Indian systems", defence sources said.

"BAE Systems has down-selected Mahindra as its business partner for the proposed in-country Assembly, Integration & Test (AIT) facility for the M777 Ultra Lightweight Howitzer," BAE said in a statement.India and the United States are in discussion for supply of 145 M777A2 LW155 howitzers for the Indian Army, it said.

"BAE Systems looks forward to working with Mahindra in the coming weeks to finalize details of this AIT facility and to negotiate the terms of its contractual arrangement," the company said.

Last year, BAE developed and submitted a US government- supported proposal offering a higher degree of indigenisation on the M777 weapon system.The highlight of this is the commitment to establish AIT capabilities in India in partnership with a domestic Indian company.

"The selection follows a detailed assessment of Mahindra's ability to fulfil the requirements and provide the best value to the M777 India programme, and in the future, grow its capability as a strategic partner for BAE Systems in India," it said.

Joe Senftle, Vice President and General Manager, Weapon Systems, BAE Systems said that as a founding partner of defence manufacturing in India, BAE Systems "is pleased to partner with Mahindra".The facility is a fundamental part of the M777 production line.

A domestic Assembly, Integration and Test facility will enable the Indian Army to access maintenance, spares and support for the M777 locally."We will continue to support the two Governments to progress to contract agreement so that we may begin the process of 'Make in India' for M777," Senftle said.

On its part, Mahindra said M777 will give the army a much needed operational advantage and an access to state-of-the-art technology. "Mahindra M777 facility will also ensure that the life cycle support is available locally thereby enhancing operational availability of the guns," SP Shukla, Group President, Mahindra Defence & Aerospace, Mahindra Group said.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 17 Feb 2016 17:24

It is not "Make in India" but "Assembly, Integration and Testing (AIT) in India". Very HALisque!

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Feb 2016 18:20

^^^

New catch phrase "Make in India" but nothing has changed really in terms of indigenous value-added capability to imports.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 17 Feb 2016 19:19

srai wrote:^^^

New catch phrase "Make in India" but nothing has changed really in terms of indigenous value-added capability to imports.

Except private enterprises probably have the self interest to try and steal IP as and when they can whereas DPSU are "what can we do saar" types

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 17 Feb 2016 19:24

Not to mention the desi babus will give a million 'policy excuses' in not meeting the yearly production goals and still keep their jobs. The Pvt Sector will never allow such a situation to arise.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 17 Feb 2016 22:11

Unless there are IP issues involved, it would be more profitable for the Private Industries to indigenise as much as possible and as quickly as possible.
Sourcing locally would be comparatively cheaper.
Also, India can be the hub for support. Routing supply from India to say afghanistan, would be cheaper than continental US .

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 17 Feb 2016 22:38

ATI comes before making. Its not the main value addition, but there is significant value added in ATI activities. Had HAL not been a govt. company and was well managed, it would have taken the next step in manufacturing and design. Mahindra being a private concern, will hopefully do a better job.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Feb 2016 03:11

JTull wrote:It is not "Make in India" but "Assembly, Integration and Testing (AIT) in India". Very HALisque!

But having a private player do it means that they will naturally look to take it further..develop more variants from it and then possibly offer those to the IA as well or even look to export it. Once the eco-system is developed within India, the next generation needs will hopefully be met by artillery guns developed from and eventually superior to the original imported designs.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Feb 2016 03:26

^^^

Part of it would depend on how contracts are formulated and agreed upon. There would likely be various restrictions on what the Indian partner can do to the product and ownership of IPs (any subsequent IPs), such as things like if any improvement made on the process/design it would be owned by BAE, etc. There was a story of how HAL modified Jaguars with over-wing missiles (or maybe another mod) and to their amazement the British ,in their original contract, had mentioned a bit about how new modifications undertaken by HAL would be property of British company and they would have the rights to apply it across other fleets without any extra compensation provided to the original mod innovator.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 20 Feb 2016 03:59

OFB developed 155X52 MM gun test fired at Pokhran

OFB has also developed a 155x52 mm gun, which is a higher version. It was test fired recently at Pokhran. This gun has a higher range than the 155x45mm calibre and was made by improvising the existing 130mm guns available with the Army.

Is this the new 155 MM gun that was under development by OFB or the M-46 upgun project ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Feb 2016 08:46

^^^

That sounds like ATGS--a joint effort between DRDO and OFB to upgrade Dhanush to 155mmx52 caliber.