Artillery: News & Discussion

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Indranil
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Induction of new artillery guns shows promise for indigenous defence firms
By Ajai Shukla
Pune
Business Standard, 6th Feb 19

For the third year running, new artillery guns have featured in the Republic Day parade, signalling that the army’s debilitating shortfall of modern artillery guns – the most effective battlefield weapon since the American Civil War – could soon be alleviated.

The parade saw the debut of two new artillery guns. One is the Korean-origin K-9 Thunder self-propelled gun, a 155 millimetre (mm), 52-calibre gun that Larsen & Toubro (L&T) is building under licence in their Talegaon plant, near Pune. These guns are mounted on tracked vehicles to keep pace with fast-moving tanks of the strike corps, providing uninterrupted fire support even as armoured spearheads move deep into enemy territory.

Just 100 K-9 Thunder guns are on order, enough only for one Indian strike corps. With three Indian strike corps awaiting modern self-propelled guns; the order to L&T could well be trebled.

Also making its Republic Day debut this year was the M777 ultralight howitzer (ULH) – a 155 mm, 39 calibre gun, built largely of titanium, that is light and manoeuvrable enough for the mountain borders. BAE Systems Inc. has an order for 145 M777 guns but, given the need to equip four recently raised mountain divisions, this order, too, could be doubled or more.

Meanwhile, the army’s most crucial new gun – the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) – made its debut in the 2017 parade. The army could eventually induct over 1,500 of these powerful, 155 mm, 52 calibre towed guns, to replace the old, lighter, shorter-range, less destructive 130 mm and 105 mm guns that has largely comprised the army’s arsenal for several decades.

For now, however, the ministry of defence (MoD) has ordered just 10 ATAGS howitzers, shared between the two firms developing the gun – Kalyani Group and Tata Power SED. The MoD has cleared an initial order for 150 guns, subject to successful trials. The lowest bidder will get to build 107 guns, while the more expensive bidder will build the remaining 43, at the lowest bidder’s price.

Using this order as a springboard into artillery production, the Pune-based Kalyani Group has invested Rs 500-600 crore into gun fabrication facilities. Group chairman, Baba Kalyani, who had earlier had earlier bought and transported to Pune an entire factory from Austrian gun-manufacturer, RUAG, told Business Standardhe has recently bought another facility from the UK.

“We have completed the acquisition of a BAE Systems facility in Barrow-in-Furness, UK, which is a submarine and artillery plant,” stated Kalyani.

Kalyani, who makes no secret of his ambition to be the Krupp of India, has tasked his engineers to build various guns in order to develop design and fabrication skills. Besides the on-going ATAGS project, Kalyani Group has already developed six other types of guns.

“These include two 155 mm guns – called the Bharat-52 and Bharat-45. We have also mounted a lighter 105 mm gun on a truck. We have built three ultralight howitzers – one of titanium, another called the Hawkeye ULH, and finally a 155 mm, 39 calibre, all-steel ULH”, says Kalyani.

One of these came after army chief, General Bipin Rawat, on a visit to Kalyani Group, wondered whether it would be feasible to mount the all-steel ULH on a truck, for mobility in mountainous terrain.

Kalyani says he has met Rawat’s request by integrating a 6.8-tonne, all-steel ULH onto a 7.5-tonne Ashok Leyland carrier. By March, it will be offered to the army and could go into testing.

Kalyani Group is also pitching in the ULH segment, having developed an all-titanium ULH that, at 4.8 tonnes, is only marginally heavier than the 4.5-tonne M777. Kalyani claims this gun would become lighter as development proceeds.


Both Kalyani Group and Tata Power SED officials complain the Rs 15 crore the MoD is paying for each ATAGS will not even cover manufacturing costs. But they remain in the project in the expectation of large orders ahead.

Meanwhile, the MoD is paying the OFB more generously – Rs 14 crore for each 155 mm, 45 calibre Dhanush howitzers it is manufacturing, even though that gun is smaller and less complex than the ATAGS. The OFB developed the Dhanush from the technology blueprints provided by Bofors in 1986, and is now building 114 guns for the army.

“After decades, there is movement on multiple fronts in artillery development. Now let us see how quickly we can get these guns into service,” says a senior army planner who deals with equipment induction.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

Its upto the army to push the babus at mod hard and make sure huge numbers get ordered asap and inducted

A never ending arjunish trials cycle / iaf style change request neurological issue just opens the door for foreign dalals to crawl in again

The m777-52 is already making noises
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

^^ will it be right to assume
1. that IA won't have to create new training or operating procedures for these guns? basically existing ones should suffice perhaps only tables need to be updated.
2. The ammo is standardized and wont have to place some stock orders later on.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I am concerned about the future of atags. As it has significant Pvt sector participation and with INC going full retard. I fear for the armed forces.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

Indranil wrote:Induction of new artillery guns shows promise for indigenous defence firms
By Ajai Shukla
Pune
Business Standard, 6th Feb 19


“We have completed the acquisition of a BAE Systems facility in Barrow-in-Furness, UK, which is a submarine and artillery plant,” stated Kalyani.
I cannot find any reference to this claim here. This facility makes N-powered Submarines.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

JayS wrote:I cannot find any reference to this claim here. This facility makes N-powered Submarines.
India to buy 145 artillery guns from BAE Systems
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/india-b ... e-systems/
The M777 is manufactured by BAE Systems’ Global Combat Systems division. Prime contract management is based in Barrow-in-Furness in the UK as well as manufacture and assembly of the titanium structures and associated recoil components. Final integration and testing of the weapon is undertaken at BAE’s facility in Hattiesburg, Mississippi.
The M777 began as the Ultralight-weight Field Howitzer, developed by VSEL’s armaments division in Barrow-in-Furness, United Kingdom. This company was bought by BAE which ended up responsible for design, construction and assembly (through its US-based, BAE Systems Land and Armaments group). The M777 uses about 70% US-built parts including the gun barrel manufactured at the Watervliet Arsenal.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

^^ So, Kalyani Group acquired this facility which makes M777 components..? The way its written gives an impression that the entire marine division is taken over.

Also the link you gave now says 120 guns to be assembled in India. Whos gonna do that..??
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The Kalyan’s acquisition of Barrow is DDM to me. But a majority of the M777 guns will be assembled in India. Let me dig up an official source on this. Unless someone beats me to it :)
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

Atags will likely be asked to lose 3 tons weight citing weak border area roads

Ofb unions will wail they are to have monopoly on defence products

Congis will ask why kalyani should make profit when farmers starve and allege its a fixup by modi

Unless nda returns to power there is no hope of atags entering service

Baki dalals will always push imports
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Rakesh wrote:The Kalyan’s acquisition of Barrow is DDM to me. But a majority of the M777 guns will be assembled in India. Let me dig up an official source on this. Unless someone beats me to it :)
Mahindra if I recall correctly
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Darshhan beat me to it :)

Mahindra Defence is assembling the guns in India.

And as you already know JayS, for our DDM....Manufacture & Transfer of Technology ( :lol: ) = Assembly / Screwdrivergiri.

BAE Systems down-selects Mahindra for proposed ultra-lightweight Howitzer Assembly Integration and Test
https://www.mahindra.com/news-room/pres ... N-AND-TEST
BAE Systems has down-selected Mahindra as its business partner for the proposed in-country Assembly, Integration & Test (AIT) facility for the M777 Ultra Lightweight Howitzer.
Dr. Joe Senftle, Vice President & General Manager, Weapon Systems, BAE Systems Inc., "As a founding partner of defence manufacturing in India, BAE Systems is pleased to partner with Mahindra on our offer to develop an Assembly, Integration and Test facility in India. The facility is a fundamental part of the M777 production line. A domestic Assembly, Integration and Test facility will enable the Indian Army to access maintenance, spares and support for the M777 locally. We will continue to support the two Governments to progress to contract agreement so that we may begin the process of ‘Make in India’ for M777."
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Singha wrote:Atags will likely be asked to lose 3 tons weight citing weak border area roads

Ofb unions will wail they are to have monopoly on defence products

Congis will ask why kalyani should make profit when farmers starve and allege its a fixup by modi

Unless nda returns to power there is no hope of atags entering service

Baki dalals will always push imports
It should be "easy" for ATAGS to lose at least some weight using alloy wheels. The trails could be made of Aluminum reducing much more. Its doable, but will definitely delay the project. Three years worth of production should be ordered with the first version of the gun, followed by the lighter gun and a midlife refit.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

Think it was Baba kalyani who said to reducce weight they'll need to add more Ti and that will drive up costs and already they're not being paid even construction costs for the atags samples they were producing.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

and even the Ti metal pieces are imported as we lack local raw materials.

it will be a gold plated maybach which will then be declared unaffordable once it has lost steel and got Ti chassis.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The key word being IF....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1093858869468516352 ---> Barrow-in-Furness was where the Armaments division of Vickers Shipbuilding & Engineering developed the ultralight weight field howitzer which later became the M-777 when BAE tookover. It is quite interesting if Kalyani has indeed taken over this facility.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by VKumar »

The wall on our western border, can be a wall of artillery. This will keep out the hordes of terrorists expected as soon as Pakistan detonates.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

VKumar wrote:The wall on our western border, can be a wall of artillery. This will keep out the hordes of terrorists expected as soon as Pakistan detonates.
That is not how you fight wars. You concentrate your forces on points where you have to punch in thereby overwhelming the enemy forces on those points.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

Rakesh wrote:The Kalyan’s acquisition of Barrow is DDM to me. But a majority of the M777 guns will be assembled in India. Let me dig up an official source on this. Unless someone beats me to it :)
Thanks for the info Rakesh.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by krishna_krishna »

JayS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The Kalyan’s acquisition of Barrow is DDM to me. But a majority of the M777 guns will be assembled in India. Let me dig up an official source on this. Unless someone beats me to it :)
Thanks for the info Rakesh.
The news is correct here is from horse's mouth :

“We have completed the acquisition of a BAE Systems facility in Barrow-in-Furness, UK, which is a submarine and artillery plant,” stated Kalyani.

http://idrw.org/induction-of-new-artill ... nce-firms/ .
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Krishna, I would love to believe that. But the sources make me doubt that. One is IDRW (who shamelessly copied it from Ajai Shukla's blog) and the second is Ajai Shukla.

You are welcome JayS.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by krishna_krishna »

Agreed, I guess things will clear out in coming months if it's true or not. I sincerely pray this to be true.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

krishna_krishna wrote:
JayS wrote:
Thanks for the info Rakesh.
The news is correct here is from horse's mouth :

“We have completed the acquisition of a BAE Systems facility in Barrow-in-Furness, UK, which is a submarine and artillery plant,” stated Kalyani.

http://idrw.org/induction-of-new-artill ... nce-firms/ .
I dont know who copied whom between the "two" sources available. Both are unreliable, the one you posted is more so. I'd believe when I see a company statement or Baba Kalyani himself saying in a video or some credible news outlet reporting. I tried. I cannot find such source. Should have been quite a buzz about it otherwise.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by VKumar »

darshhan wrote:
VKumar wrote:The wall on our western border, can be a wall of artillery. This will keep out the hordes of terrorists expected as soon as Pakistan detonates.
That is not how you fight wars. You concentrate your forces on points where you have to punch in thereby overwhelming the enemy forces on those points.
Not to fight a war but to discourage illegal immigration by millions when Pakistan implodes. To make a wall is one thing, to use a few hundred older artillery guns to cover sectors where wall is not possible, as well as to backup the wall.

Anyways it was just a thought since so many 105/130mm guns being available.
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Post by Prem »

VKumar wrote:
darshhan wrote:
That is not how you fight wars. You concentrate your forces on points where you have to punch in thereby overwhelming the enemy forces on those points.
Not to fight a war but to discourage illegal immigration by millions when Pakistan implodes. To make a wall is one thing, to use a few hundred older artillery guns to cover sectors where wall is not possible, as well as to backup the wall. Anyways it was just a thought since so many 105/130mm guns being available.
Big guns to back up few hundred Shilkas at the front in direct mode making mounds of PakiPretas.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by krishna_krishna »

Rakesh wrote:Krishna, I would love to believe that. But the sources make me doubt that. One is IDRW (who shamelessly copied it from Ajai Shukla's blog) and the second is Ajai Shukla.

You are welcome JayS.
JayS wrote: I tried. I cannot find such source. Should have been quite a buzz about it otherwise.
This has already started considerable chatter on twitter so I believe this is some truth in it , we will come to know in few days

However there is some good news that I stumble upon while digging this, kalyani did acquire in massa land a companyI believe that gives them edge in Ti Alloys (2016) and metallurgy:

Walker Forge Tennessee is a supplier of complex, steel and high-alloy steel, engine and chassis components.

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization ... n-overview
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

From what I gather, the Dhanush, K-9 (Strike Corps) and Sarang will be on Western front. The M777s and ATAGs will by on Northern and Eastern front.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

saurav jha has a tweet that a israeli composite technology co has been purchased by a indian co.

btw today his twitter account seems gone!!
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

I noticed that too. I hope he is ok.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

twitter doing all it can to aid BIF forces probably.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

Indeed. Even the DM chat I had with him are gone now.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

I think most of us are being shadow banned now. What else we can expect.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

Yagnasri wrote:I think most of us are being shadow banned now. What else we can expect.
boycott twitter and shift enmasse to gutrgoo
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

He is there.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Cybaru wrote:He is there.
Thank goodness.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

A Deshmukh wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:I think most of us are being shadow banned now. What else we can expect.
boycott twitter and shift enmasse to gutrgoo
Instead, stay on twitter and counter the anti-nationalists.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Exactly. Never allow them to control the narrative on any social platform.

Counter bullsh!t with facts.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I was on Twitter with lt gen PR Shankar (retd) and asked him about the Dhanduh tirals issues.
He says its OFB shells and barrel. And once they understood it was all well..
Didn't get into what were the issues? :)

I think its barrel wear causing muzzle strike due to shell cg offset.
And the ERFB shells are anyway low fracture toughness by design to produce right fragmentation pattern.
I am willing to leave it as we wont get the details nor should we.
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

Dhanush gets bulk production clearance. :-)

https://twitter.com/DrUddipan/status/10 ... 2520100864
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1097596759939854337
So, India's Ordnance Factory Board has finally received bulk production clearance for 114 155mm/45 calibre Dhanush howitzers which are derived from the baseline Bofors FH-77B but are significantly more capable.
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1097598800590327808
114 x Dhanush + 150 x ATAGS + 300 x Sharang + 145 x M-777 + 100 x K-9 Vajra = 809 x 155 mm/ 39/45/52 calibre artillery weapons. or around 45 regiments of modern 'medium' artillery for the Indian Army's artillery corps by 2024 is not bad.
If the army trials are cleared then Kalyani ULH + mounted light gun and OFB BEML MGS could also get added to this list
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

As per wiki chacha, there are around 67 artillery regiments. Now if 45 of those regiments will convert to 155mm guns, imagine the sheer fire power they will bring.

And of the remaining 22 regiments, some units will feature the Pinaka and Smerch MBRL.

Brown pants for TSP are in order :)

If not for anything else, the first term of the Modi Govt will be remembered for a dramatic artillery transformation. The Josh is High in the Regiment of Artillery. Jai Hind!

Sarvatra Izzat-o-Iqbal (Everywhere with Honour and Glory) - Motto of the Regiment of Artillery, Indian Army.
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