Artillery: News & Discussion

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 31 Oct 2018 23:02

Gyan wrote:I don't think Dhanush & ATAGS production will ever materialize. Any Orders will go to lighter M777 of 52 caliber. Arjun 2 reboot.

In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery. Kalyani 155mm 39 caliber ULH will be adequate for all purposes, in the unlikely situation of ever being ordered.

M777 is way more expensive than ATAGS

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 Nov 2018 00:00

Gyan wrote:
In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery.

Not happening. For the simple reason: cost,rate of production & effect area. Not even considering the logistics part..

Number of artillery rounds equivalent to the cost of a rocket, will be able to plaster more area accurately compare to a rocket warhead.

You can produce 1 million shells per month(Russians did in WW1).. not possible to produce 1 million rocket at the same cost.

In fact the opposite is happening. Large caliber artillery is replacing MBRL and guided MBRL replaces aircraft based CAS.

War needs to be economical. MBRL does not make it economical.

wig · Post by **wig** » 09 Nov 2018 10:12

Army to induct K9 Vajra, M777 howitzers today

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 80312.html

excerpted from the article

The induction of 100 K9 Vajra at a cost of Rs 4,366 crore is to complete by November 2020. The first batch of 10 guns will be delivered this month, Defence Ministry spokesperson Col Aman Anand told reporters on Thursday. The next 40 guns will be delivered in November 2019, and another 50 in November 2020, he said.

The first regiment of K9 Vajra, first-ever artillery gun manufactured by the Indian private sector, is expected to complete by July 2019. The gun has a maximum range of 28-38 km. It is capable of burst firing three rounds in 30 seconds, intense firing of 15 rounds in three minutes and sustained firing of 60 rounds in 60 minutes, he said. The Army is also going to raise seven regiments of 145 M777 howitzers.

Five guns each will be delivered to the Army beginning August 2019 and the entire process will complete in following 24 months. The first regiment will complete by October next year, the spokesperson said. The gun, having a range of 30 km, can be moved to a desired location using helicopters and service aircraft. Compact gun tractor to tow 130 MM and 155 MM artillery guns will also inducted during the ceremony, the officer said.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Nov 2018 10:33

Gyan wrote:I don't think Dhanush & ATAGS production will ever materialize. Any Orders will go to lighter M777 of 52 caliber. Arjun 2 reboot.

In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery. Kalyani 155mm 39 caliber ULH will be adequate for all purposes, in the unlikely situation of ever being ordered.

While this like putting our fears out in public, DAC has cleared production 150 ATAGS pieces, not sure when Dhanush and MGS will get mass orders, but Pinaka, ATAGS orders are well under the way unless something like 2004 happens when all defense orders except Su-30 and AJT Hawk orders were cancelled.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2018 10:52

Firm orders and money transfers to oem must take place by feb 2019 because elections loom

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 Nov 2018 11:20

wig wrote:Army to induct K9 Vajra, M777 howitzers today

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 80312.html

excerpted from the article
...........{Rest Snipped}............

Compact gun tractor to tow 130 MM and 155 MM artillery guns will also inducted during the ceremony, the officer said.

Guess the "Compact Gun Tractor" that is also to be inducted is the below mentioned puppy, the Ashok Leyland Field Artillery Tractor (FAT) 6x6:

1. ASHOK LEYLAND FAT 6X6 FIRST DRIVE REVIEW

2. Review: Ashok Leyland Super Stallion FAT 6x6

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Nov 2018 12:13

Videos of Guns Firing during Induction at Deolali today from Livefist

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1060776727255900160

M777A2
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1060777575637749760

K-9Vajra
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1060778512360132609

All Guns simultaneous
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1060780119369879552

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Nov 2018 12:29

nam · Post by **nam** » 09 Nov 2018 15:46

It is interesting to note how K9 is so stable and is able to manage recoil so well. This is required for MRSI or burst mode firing. The best stable firing I have seen on youtube is by the uber TFTA German SPH, firing 6 rounds in 30 seconds.

Compare this with the Chini SPH, you will notice the difference in quality.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Nov 2018 15:49

Bofors Ghost Finally Dismissed, Indian Army Receives 1st New Howitzers Since Scandal

Livefist reported earlier this year that 25 M777s will be delivered by May 2019 — enough to form the first ultra-light gun regiment. Beyond the first 25 guns that arrive fully built from the United Kingdom, the remaining 120 guns will be assembled at the BAE-Mahindra facility near New Delhi.
...
The MoD said, “The first ten K9 Vajra 155mm/52 calibre guns have been imported from Hanwha Techwin of South Korea in Semi Knocked Down state and have been assemble by L&T in India. The balance 90 Guns will be largely manufactured in India with some major assemblies coming from South Korea. Its induction will give a huge fillip to the firepower capability of Indian Army on our western borders.”

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Nov 2018 16:16

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 0634472448

Small complement of 12 Regts in 1947 with max rg of about 16 km to the 251 Gun Regts now capb to fire upto 40 km, Land Arty come a long way. With indctn of K9 Vajra T & M777 ULH, MoD wishes more power to the Gunners. More gun systems in pipeline.

https://twitter.com/PRODefNgp/status/10 ... 2960103424 (Video)

Tracked & Self Propelled 155mm K9 Vajra of #IndianArmy in action at dedicatation ceremony by Honorable Defence Minister Smt Nirmalasita Sitaraman at Field Firing Ranges, Devlali.

In the video we can also see Upgraded Grad, Pinaka & Smerch on display

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Nov 2018 17:14

Who are the maroon berets for? RM's security detail?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Nov 2018 17:17

possibly just photo op! They look pretty decent to aam janta like me.

nam · Post by **nam** » 09 Nov 2018 17:44

JTull wrote:Who are the maroon berets for? RM's security detail?

IA Chief Security.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Nov 2018 18:44

Wonder why the upgraded M46 (Sharang) was also not included in the display and demonstration of firing. Would have been good to see it.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Nov 2018 19:26

The display was of guns in Army service only

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 09 Nov 2018 20:05

^ See, the above display does have an up gunned 155 mm from Soltam.
The guns, in order of L-R are: 105 mm IFG, 130 mm M-46, 155 Soltam up gunned Version (Metamorphosis) with distinctive Bofors type muzzle brake and 2 piece barrel and a vanilla Bofors (no Dhanush yet in desert camo).

The Sarang is not displayed as the Army signed the contract only in Oct 25, 2018.

However, 300 guns will be delivered by 2022.

Also, With committed orders of 414 Dhanush, 150 ATAGS, 145 M 777 and 100 Vajra, not to mention 4 regiments of Pinaka and test of Prahaar, the NDA govt. has delivered the Big Guns required to assert our authority in case of a shooting match.

By 2022-23, we should have about 1000 155 mm pieces and 600 legacy M-46, which is much better than 250 Bofors and 700 M-46 during Kargil.

By using OFB and govt to govt deals, chances of scam are less.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 09 Nov 2018 20:22

Joyous occasion no doubt but waiting for the day when ATAGS, Dhanush, Bhim, OFB Mounted Gun etc. are inducted with similar pomp, pageantry, and celebration.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Nov 2018 22:40

One small correction NDA govt has ordered 8 regiments of Pinaka 2 +6 to the original 2 adding to 10 regiments by 2022

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 10 Nov 2018 00:56

Refer to video at https://twitter.com/livefist/status/106 ... 57888?s=21

After the guns have fired, at 28 seconds the gun on the left has 2 projectile like sudden burst, which leaves a smokey trail.

Or are they rocket launchers placed at a distance.

Edited: how to delete this post.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Nov 2018 01:02

dinesh_kimar wrote: The guns, in order of L-R are: 105 mm IFG, 130 mm M-46, 155 Soltam up gunned Version (Metamorphosis) with distinctive Bofors type muzzle brake and 2 piece barrel and a vanilla Bofors (no Dhanush yet in desert camo).

Thanks for this. Newbie in this. But the Sharang also have the same kind of muzzle brake.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Nov 2018 01:32

The soltam m-46 155mm upgrade also has a single baffle muzzle brake, both the soltam upgrade and OFB Sharang are almost identical and if I am right the OFB Sharang is updated with additional features

This is a Israeli 155mm M-46

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 10 Nov 2018 01:34

Yes, the earlier Soltam upgrade and Sarang indeed look the same.

I heard this version of events from Kunal Biswas DFI in 2010.

Soltam barrel tech was reportedly very bad, but OFB got valuable breech know how, during the ToT, which they adapted for Dhanush.

( Dhanush= Bofors 45 cal.Barrel + Soltam breech knowhow + local jugaad from Army EME for Breech ring).

The Army calls the above 3 parts assembly as "ordanance", and it's the key to build a local gun/ most critical part.

The carriage, elevating mechanism and trunions, cradle, etc are easier to build locally.

The Soltam upgunned 155 mm had frequent barrel bursts, so no repeat order given to Soltam after the initial 180 kits.

The OFB fixed the Soltam barrel problem using Bofors barrel tech, at the Army' s request.

The Sarang looks the same, but has superior barrel.

The army had competitive trials with Soltam, Punj Lloyd's Yugo import and OFB Sarang, and decided that OFB offered the best solution.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Nov 2018 01:58

(US) Army Tests Low-Recoil 155mm Howitzer Small Enough To Fit On The Back Of A Truck
Wonder how different this is compared to the Kalyani mounted gun (given they reportedly had a tie up with Mandus for their soft recoil tech).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Nov 2018 02:10

dinesh_kimar wrote: The Soltam upgunned 155 mm had frequent barrel bursts, so no repeat order given to Soltam after the initial 180 kits.

The OFB fixed the Soltam barrel problem using Bofors barrel tech, at the Army' s request.

The Sarang looks the same, but has superior barrel.

The army had competitive trials with Soltam, Punj Lloyd's Yugo import and OFB Sarang, and decided that OFB offered the best solution.

There was a video here where the OFB official said very nonchalantly that the Soltam solution did not even come close.

Found it. Go to 5:15 point.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 10 Nov 2018 02:26

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Nov 2018 22:48

An interesting paper from 2006
Did the Marine Corps Fix Fires or Save an Airframe

The weapon system has a displacement issue when firing high
charges (7 White, 7 Red, 8 Super and Modular Artillery
Charge System (MACS) equivalents). There are two types of
displacement: Lateral and Longitudinal. Of greatest
concern is the lateral displacement. When the howitzer
fires a high charge at a low quadrant with the deflection
greater than 100 mils off center, the weapon will begin
displacing laterally. This causes the cannoneer to
traverse the weapon more and more with each round fired
until he reaches the mechanical traverse limits of the gun.
The crew is then required to speed shift the gun back onto
the azimuth of fire to continue the mission. This causes a
delay of about two minutes in the mission. Longitudinal
displacement is of less concern because the weapon can
continue the mission without worry of reaching the
mechanical limits.

Because of the requirements placed on the development of
the M777 by the Osprey, a number of capabilities were left out.
First, the system was developed without a hydraulic position
ascending component (HYPAC). A HYPAC is a hydraulic system that
lifts the howitzer from its firing position onto the wheels.
Under the current design, a Marine must manually pump each side
of the howitzer onto the wheel. This process takes about forty
to fifty seconds. Also, when moving and shifting, the crew
experiences unnecessary fatigue, which causes a delay in
displacement. There is no HYPAC because of weight and cost
restrictions.15 A HYPAC would have decreased displacement times
and lessened crew fatigue. The standard table of organization
(T/O) is ten men per howitzer. Due to manpower shortfalls, a
typical battery only has seven to eight men on each howitzer.
When the weapon is employed with less than the standard crew the
emplacement and displacement times increase. With the addition
of a HYPAC, the system would be more responsive.
The auto ramming system was the first item cut from the
M777 howitzer when the weight restriction was imposed.16 This
system would have rammed the projectile into the tube quicker
and more uniformly then the current method. Currently two men
must use a ramming staff to seat the round in the tube. Through
training the crew is able to develop the necessary technique to
ram the projectiles properly. However as the crew becomes
fatigued, the rams become weaker, and the chance of a firing
incident increases. An auto ramming system would have increased
responsiveness and lessened crew fatigue. A uniform ram also
increases the accuracy of the weapon. The projectile would
always have a tight seal in the tube and prevent blow by. Blow
by is a cause for a short or erratic round. Although, the M198
and the M777 are both hand rammed, the addition of an auto
rammer to the M777 would have lessened the risk of short rounds.
An auto ramming system coupled with a heavier tube would
have allowed an increase in the rate of fire of the M777.17 The
current maximum rate of fire for the M777 is four rounds per
minute for two minutes.18 After the initial two minutes the crew
can sustain a rate of two rounds per minute.19 A T/O crew is
capable of achieving eight rounds per minute.20 The maximum rate
of fire is based on the tube thickness. A thicker tube does not
heat up as quickly as a thin tube. The maximum rate of fire
would have been increased by both rounds per minute and minutes
at the maximum rate if a thicker tube was used. The current
tube has been reduced to save weight.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Nov 2018 00:38

^ The Marine's have a very specific requirement for their systems and a larger driver of their decision making is the ability to get form ship to shore using their organic lift capability along with the standard deployment methods. This is a requirement they put on almost of all of their tactical systems, be it high performance AESA radars, or tactical vehicles like the JLTV required to support Artillery or Air defense units.

Claiming that an operator should not focus on the ability of its most vital theater transport asset to move its "mobile" artillery is like saying that the US Army should not focus on the deployability of their assets vis-a-vis the number of C-130 or C-17 loads because that puts a burden on performance. You can relax those requirements if you expect to always fight without needing deployment both into a theater and within it. The USMC does not have that choice as expeditionary warfare puts its own set of restrictions on weapon system characteristics and performance.

The changes demanded in the article are more applicable to the US Army and the way it uses its Triple sevens and many of those (pertaining to extending range, accuracy at range, and rate of fire) are being funded or in the pipeline under the ERCA and other programs. But they too would want at least some of their M777 or M777 replacement to be air-deployable using the Chinook's.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 02:49

Can someone kindly explain the drill process that I see all Indian gunners doing? There is obviously some logic to this, but I have not seen this in other artillery crews from the world or perhaps I just have not noticed.

la.khan · Post by **la.khan** » 11 Nov 2018 07:27

Rakesh wrote:Can someone kindly explain the drill process that I see all Indian gunners doing? There is obviously some logic to this, but I have not seen this in other artillery crews from the world or perhaps I just have not noticed.

Are you referring to the weird 'dance' like thing going on, especially the guys who pick up the artillery shells and hand them over the loading crew? When the army inducted M777s & Vajra K9s recently, I noticed the same. I hope it is limited to formal ceremonies when VIPs are in attendance, not on the field/front/border.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Nov 2018 09:16

Guys, enough OT. Khalil had an objection, dinesh clarified. No more.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 11 Nov 2018 09:38

I have cleaned up unnecessary discussion.
Moderator

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 18:41

la.khan wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Can someone kindly explain the drill process that I see all Indian gunners doing? There is obviously some logic to this, but I have not seen this in other artillery crews from the world or perhaps I just have not noticed.
Are you referring to the weird 'dance' like thing going on, especially the guys who pick up the artillery shells and hand them over the loading crew? When the army inducted M777s & Vajra K9s recently, I noticed the same. I hope it is limited to formal ceremonies when VIPs are in attendance, not on the field/front/border.

Yes that only. There has to be some logic to this.

I tried Google, but nothing came up. Thus I asked. Hopefully, somebody knows the answer.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 18:55

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1060787878043635712 ---> Credit should really be due to former Director General of Artillery, Lt General Anjan Mukherjee who backed key artillery indigenization programmes like the Dhanush and ATAGS in the second decade of the 21st century.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1060789124381036544 ---> Currently, DRDO's ATAGS is the only system in India that can use BMCS Zone 7 effectively to reach 45 plus km ranges with ERFB-Base Bleed ammunition. No 'import' comes close. ATAGS also has superior MRSI capability.

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Nov 2018 19:01

Rakesh wrote: Yes that only. There has to be some logic to this.

I tried Google, but nothing came up. Thus I asked. Hopefully, somebody knows the answer.

Apparently the drill is during a ceremony/demo or if discipline is required during a process. There re videos in youtube of dhanush doing 3 round testing. No such drill is carried out.

There was a comment on twitter by ex-IA general, where he said during a setup of BM in one of the rocket regiment, the "civilians" present took their own sweet time. He immediately set up a drill to install discipline!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 19:12

Aah okay. Thanks Nam.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 6988453888 ---> Giving credit where its due. The revival of Indian artillery - Dhanush, K-9, M-777 is all thanks to Manohar Parrikar and a series of fine DG Artys, like Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar (Retd). Reup of my 2016 story tracking the revival, roadmap and key decisions.

Exorcising the ghost of Bofors
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the- ... 2016-11-24

The Indian army is set to acquire its first howitzers in three decades and restart a long-delayed artillery modernisation program.

Please visit Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar's (Retd) twitter feed ---> https://twitter.com/palepurshankar

Lots of excellent tweets, links (articles by him and others) and very nice info....lots to read and learn!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 19:14

Modernization of Artillery – A Review of Success
http://indiandefenceindustries.in/moder ... of-success

By Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar (Retd)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 19:21

What is the lesson to learn here from the spectacular success of Indian Artillery programs? When the end user is involved, product development is that much more clearly defined and the product achieves the desired outcomes.

Kudos to Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar, Lt General Anjan Mukherjee and other DGs of Artillery who supported Indian Artillery programs. Your vision has paid off. Thank You Sirs! Jai Hind!

DGs of Armoured Corps, please take note

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Nov 2018 19:25

Just for the records:

145 M77, 100 K9, 300 upgraded M46, 414 Dhanush, 1800-2000 ATAGS, 800 MGS

That is up to 3800 155MM guns in the pipeline and planned !

3800, not even considering that M777, K9 & M46 numbers may go up.

We will be flattening places WW1 style.

Massive is an under statement.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 19:27

+108 nam! +108!!!

Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar echoes the same thing you said above!

https://twitter.com/palepurshankar/stat ... 7445260288 ---> Fifteen 130mm gun regiments upgunned to 155mm. Five K9 plus seven M777 regiments. Total additional 27. Dhanush lined up. Awesome Artillery by 2022. Enemies beware. Devastating firepower ahead.