Artillery: News & Discussion

d_berwal
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby d_berwal » 03 Sep 2014 13:13

there is a 105mm Indian field gun being designed with soft recoil technology mounted on tata 2.5ton 4x4 vehicle by IA (EME) with pvt indian company as per publicly available info :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby merlin » 03 Sep 2014 17:48

d_berwal wrote:there is a 105mm Indian field gun being designed with soft recoil technology mounted on tata 2.5ton 4x4 vehicle by IA (EME) with pvt indian company as per publicly available info :)


Interesting. Will be an almost go anywhere vehicle depending on the weight.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2014 18:20

is this the one - its by kalyani group (bharat - forge)
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 14_002.jpg

I am not sure to what extent IA is involved or has expressed interest. they seem to want only 155mm blond gori mem not the dusky smaller desi bahu.
that too 6' tall mem in the form of 52cal weapons. who knows someone might read a naval brochure and demand 55cal as well. plus 85 rds / min like the Oto 76mm.

this truck thing sounds useful as organic fire support in the hands of infantry and mech units apart from the usual artillery brigades and divisions.
the BSF should also be given this in ample numbers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vina » 03 Sep 2014 20:40

Singha wrote:is this the one - its by kalyani group (bharat - forge)
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 14_002.jpg

I am not sure to what extent IA is involved or has expressed interest. they seem to want only 155mm blond gori mem not the dusky smaller desi bahu.
that too 6' tall mem in the form of 52cal weapons. who knows someone might read a naval brochure and demand 55cal as well. plus 85 rds / min like the Oto 76mm.

this truck thing sounds useful as organic fire support in the hands of infantry and mech units apart from the usual artillery brigades and divisions.
the BSF should also be given this in ample numbers.

Ah, but Bharat Forge /Kalyani has picked up the uber Tuetonic Austrian Gori , in the form of Voest Alpine's Artillery line (Noricum) and shipped it to India, lock stock and barrel! Voest Alpine are the guys who came up with a variant of Gerald Bull's gun as GHN-45 , and spawned the Soltam and Denel versions which are always in contention for the IA 155mm artillery requirements.

Now that the Austrian Gori has become a dish ki bahu, does she become a ghar ki murgi as well and hence daal baraabar?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 11 Sep 2014 04:38

Auto components leader Bharat Forge turns focus to defence technology.

Flashback to 1999, and the Kargil war. The military is forced to abort missions due to heavy casualties. Then it decides to deploy the controversial Bofors gun to destroy Pakistani outposts from various vantage points. The strategy pays off, but the military realises it will soon run out of ammunition to feed the howitzers.

At the urging of army commanders, the defence ministry turns to Baba Kalyani and his company Bharat Forgeto make shells for its Bofors 155mm howitzer Kalyani, chairman of the Bharat Forge Group, recalls how the company got the "emergency order" to make 1 lakh shells. That's how the company's ability to turn out high-quality products at short notice, which helped burnish its global reputation in the auto parts industry, came to play a role in history.

More than a decade since then, the group led by flagship Bharat Forge is ready with artillery equipment that the Indian defence forces will soon start testing. This puts it nicely in placeto take advantage of the Narendra Modi government's initiative to encourage greater private participation in the defence sector.

"A lot of emphasis on local manufacturing of defence products has been put by the current government. Thus, companies like us, who've taken defence seriously, are now production-ready," Kalyani told ET in an exclusive interview.

The government has also opened up the sector to more overseas investments to persuade foreign companies to transfer technology to Indian firms. To those who would question the competence of a forging company entering the high-tech defence space, Kalyani said manufacturers such as Bharat Forge are especially well-qualified to do so.

"Companies like us from basic industries such as metallurgy and forging are the ones that are engaged in defence worldwide," he reasoned. For its artillery equipment venture, the Indian company has a joint venture with Elbit Systems, an Israeli defence equipment maker. The venture will initially work on the 155mm howitzer modernisation programme.

Bharat Forge has also built a howitzer from scratch that Kalyani says has far greater firepower than even the Bofors gun that's currently in use. "Our artillery gun would be better than Bofors," he asserted. "On the operational parameter, it is better in terms that it can move at 25 km an hour on its own, and the gun would take 52 calibre rounds compared with the 39 calibre of Bofors. It would have 'steer by wire', which the Bofors guns do not possess," he said.

By late September or early October, the Indian Army will start testing Bharat Forge's artillery equipment. An ultra light gun will be ready for testing by late September while trials of the 155mm artillery gun will start by December. A 155mm ultra light gun will be ready for testing by the middle of next year. (2 different ultra light guns?)

The company is also actively scouting for opportunities in the small arms space, although the government is yet to give permission to private companies to manufacture such weapons. Bharat Forge decided to diversify away from the automobile sector after the global economic turmoil hit in 2008 and plant capacity had to be idled.

"We did a couple of things. We tightened costs and adopted lean manufacturing processes. We invested heavily in R&D to develop new products" to mitigate the effects of the slump. But "when the Indian economy got battered, we too got battered in the process". This forced the company to look at sectors it could enter by leveraging its metallurgical and forging prowess. Components for the shale gas fracking, aerospace, offshore oil & gas exploration and defence industries were shortlisted.

While bets on offshore oil & gas and shale gas have paid rich dividends thanks to orders from US companies, components for aerospace equipment will need more time to develop and test. The company will focus on India for its defence equipment strategy over the next decade.

"Unless we are recognised in the domestic market, who will acknowledge us abroad?" Kalyani asked. The defence market is a potentially massive one. India's defence imports are currently worth about $20 billion a year While bets on offshore oil & gas and shale gas have paid rich dividends thanks to orders from US companies, components for aerospace equipment will need more time to develop and test. The company will focus on India for its defence equipment strategy over the next decade.

Along with the offset clause, any other mandatory local manufacturing requirements would be a very big opportunity for Indian companies. An offset clause relates to the local-manufacturing pledge an overseas company needs to make in return for orders. Kapil Singh and Nishit Jalan of Nomura didn't put a number to the defence opportunity in a July 30 research report.

"With the focus of the Indian government on local sourcing and hike in FDI in defence to 49 per cent, the revenue opportunity for the company would be very large but difficult to build in our earnings estimates," they said.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 11 Sep 2014 07:06

It would be most wonderful development if the BF gun passes muster with the army. They can deliver the required product in a time bound manner and with right QC. Also, will stay invested in these systems to come with iterative development.

As for light guns, I think they're talking about mounted 105mm with soft recoil and light 155/39 which they were developing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22539 » 11 Sep 2014 07:15

^One ultralight gun is 105 mm and the other is 155 mm. Both were featured in defexpo, but only 105 mm was an actual working specimen (on a humvee I think), the other one was just a poster.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2014 07:58

that hummer type vehicle would also be useful as a base for a 120mm mobile mortar methinks for COIN ops or general infantry.
the russians have one on a tracked vehicle and so do the germans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qln3hVoe8qA
swedes have doubled the fun with a two barrel bandook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJiLHhCqt7I

we need something cheap and produced like MMX phones like the Elbit SPEAR...until such time as the desi FICV comes online
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OrlIIiZJJk

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Victor » 11 Sep 2014 08:24

Bharat Forge is one of the major suppliers to US auto and oil industries. It is closing in on surpassing ThyssenKrupp, the legendary German gunmaker and auto components supplier in the world market. We can expect great things from this company under the BJP watch. I have to believe that howitzers are just the beginning for them, the next in line being small arms followed by armored cars and tanks. Like their forgings, these will probably be aimed at exports in addition to domestic supply.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Victor » 11 Sep 2014 08:33

merlin wrote:
d_berwal wrote:there is a 105mm Indian field gun being designed with soft recoil technology mounted on tata 2.5ton 4x4 vehicle by IA (EME) with pvt indian company as per publicly available info :)


Interesting. Will be an almost go anywhere vehicle depending on the weight.

This is it:


Kalyani has tied up with Mandus Corp of Rock Island, IL.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby LakshO » 11 Sep 2014 08:42

Great news if artillery guns from BF/Tata can make the grade!

Numbers wise, any idea what is the requirement of IA for these guns? Is 1500 a good ballpark estimation? If BF/Tata can deliver 4 per week, that would be 200 per year. In 7-8 years, the entire order can be fulfilled. I hope BF/Tata also make artillery shells too; no point in importing shells when in conflict.

I can only see upside if BF/Tata can win this. IA gets a good gun (after a looong time), pvt sector gets a toe hold in defence acquisitions, jobs for Indians, no imports, no sanctions, save forex, exports, BF/Tata can make the next version of IA requirements etc. Any downside to BF/Tatas proving their mettle? Will the import lobby allow this to go through?

I can't wait to know the results of IA's testing BF hardware in October.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 11 Sep 2014 09:45

The testing cycle for BF guns should be short as it's an imported design - made in India. It will be cheaper as expect to be 100% indigenous from the start - right to the raw material stage (unless some surprises show up). Import lobby influence will be seen if trials take any longer than six months.

Summer-Winter-Monsoon trials can be simulated by airlifting the gun to India's Ladakh-Thar desert and North-East states. Hoping they make three guns and do everything in parallel (taking some risk).

Bigger question is how does the Govt justify ordering these guns when they have a PSU baby which makes the infamous Bofors? It's like walking in to a mine zone unless defense PSU are privatized (like HAL).

Overall Bharat Forge's initiative is laudable. They clearly saw that most artillery guns are quite similar - basically a commodity product. Buying a full line followed by local manufacture is much much cheaper than Import lobby(aka first family)-MOD billion $$$ import tamashas. More important is continuing the evolution - which is where PSU under MOD bureaucracy have failed (guess it cuts off import $ siphons).

Indian army is going through a rebirth period, out with import and in with desi gear >> A real INDIAN Army is emerging finally. It's going to be painful but expect great outcome if Congress stays out of power.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2014 09:59

its time to leverage the scale of our CV and auto parts industry rather than relying on dated OFB production lines that barely turn in enough output. everyone of any consequence has done that - germany, japan, soko, america....Dhanush should be ordered in bulk and two production lines established to deliver quickly..one in private hands.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 11 Sep 2014 10:46

@nik
The testing cycle for BF guns should be short as it's an imported design - made in India. It will be cheaper as expect to be 100% indigenous from the start - right to the raw material stage (unless some surprises show up). Import lobby influence will be seen if trials take any longer than six months.

Summer-Winter-Monsoon trials can be simulated by airlifting the gun to India's Ladakh-Thar desert and North-East states. Hoping they make three guns and do everything in parallel (taking some risk).


Interesting point here boss. Me thinks both the IA and IAF need to increase the manning in these evaluation teams and organise their procurement teams to handle simultaneous testing and quicker procurement cycles. These teams need to shape up like the Naval teams for better and quicker induction. Also the IA needs to identify key private vendors with whom they embed their people to take developments further and not come in at only the evaluation stage. There are just so many programmes under testing and evaluation that it takes forever to get them tested.

The private sector will not have the luxury of OFB's for sloth paced testing and evaluation. So these would be important little steps in greater Indian-isation of military wares.

Another route could be a joint tri service group with DRDO, where they track all defense sector related work in Private Sector or DPSU's for involvement from the initial stages in developing relevant platforms within the mil-ind complex.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2014 11:02

clearly the hawk eye of namo needs to fall on OFB and their top officials invited for a baithak manch. pity their offices are not in new delhi else namo could have arranged a special extention to his office to house them and monitor progress.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Ranjani Brow » 11 Sep 2014 16:22

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 11 Sep 2014 16:26

:rotfl:

what a major goof up in that image , they didnt even notice it before giving it for printing

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2014 16:55

bharat forge has a annual revenue of only around $600 mil, thyssenkrupp group is Euro 43billion and has 180,000 employees across 600 cos albeit spread across many business like elevators also.
the equivalent to BF is a unit called TK Forgings http://www.thyssenkrupp-forginggroup.co ... odukte.htm
I think they make around $1.2 bil
they have separate cos that supply raw metal pieces and sheets to aerospace sector.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 11 Sep 2014 17:38

krishnan wrote::rotfl:

what a major goof up in that image , they didnt even notice it before giving it for printing


Happens, they focus on the 'future'. :P

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 11 Sep 2014 17:40

One issue is that the 155mm gun they displayed at DefExpo did not seem to have even an ounce of electronics, an increasingly valuable part of the artillery systems. The OFB Dhanush was looking relatively TFTA with its thermal sight, color display, muzzle velocity radar(?) etc. Hope they tie up with BEL or whoever to get an indigenous solution for the same.
Marten wrote:Same applies to production values. OFB manuactures 18 guns a year. EIGHTEEN! To expect 200 guns/year from a private firm where firm orders are expected to be around 400 is unrealistic.

AFAIK the production target has been hiked to 100 guns/year to be reached in 2 years.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Ranjani Brow » 11 Sep 2014 18:01

Arun Menon wrote:^One ultralight gun is 105 mm and the other is 155 mm. Both were featured in defexpo, but only 105 mm was an actual working specimen (on a humvee I think), the other one was just a poster.

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Ranjani Brow » 11 Sep 2014 18:07

(deleted)
Last edited by Ranjani Brow on 11 Sep 2014 19:43, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2014 20:24

Being imported design made in India they will surely have all necessary electronics and provision for more.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 11 Sep 2014 21:39

Bharat forge should engage with DRDO for MCIWS and BEL for electronics of their howitzers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_28722 » 11 Sep 2014 22:01

Excellent news .... the pain started with artillery in 90s and hopefully the healing will begin with same

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 12 Sep 2014 00:26

Don't underestimate pigheadedness and malafide intentions of relevant MoD and Army departments. They may still find 100s of ways to put all these hopes to death for any reason.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 12 Sep 2014 02:26

One thing to note is that the 'second tier' forces have been better DRDO and 'Made in India' goods customers than Army-IAF, specifically internal security forces. Big driver is limited budgets which are incapable of billion dollar imported eye candy acquisitions (though Italian imports make it everywhere for obvious first family connections).

May be Bharat Forge should try selling to BSF and likes simultaneously rather than Army only. BSF will be happy to send 'hot' sweets across the border with these guns.

We need a gun every 10 KM on Paki border to send cockroaches back in to their holes. Total required = 2900KMS/10KM~300 guns only. With a basic range of 30 kms, we can get 7 guns barraging on any dumb jihadi's head if he gets anywhere near the border. If the a**holes like heads then we will serve them in plenty.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 12 Sep 2014 05:23

While procuring new guns does make a lot of sense, so does using the current anti-jihadic sentiment around the world to douse as much as possible those jihadic fires across the border. I am sure China would go along for some distance in such matters.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 12 Sep 2014 05:45

nik wrote:...

We need a gun every 10 KM on Paki border to send cockroaches back in to their holes. Total required = 2900KMS/10KM~300 guns only. With a basic range of 30 kms, we can get 7 guns barraging on any dumb jihadi's head if he gets anywhere near the border. If the a**holes like heads then we will serve them in plenty.


It's never been lack of capability. It has always been lack of will.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 12 Sep 2014 10:16

via saurav jha tweet

BTW please don't think the Dhanush is simply a 45 calibre version of the FH-77B. It is a generation ahead with a lot of valuable electronics

for instance Dhanush has an onboard muzzle velocity radar for recordings. In FH-77B this is done on board.

All ballistic calculations are also done on board using an enhanced tactical computer for the Dhanush.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 12 Sep 2014 13:43

I would imagine the round small drum thing above the root of the barrel is the muzzle velocity radar
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 022129.jpg

the operator station does look way more netcentric and IT enabled than fh77b
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... ry_003.jpg
the colour display unit mounted high up on right with daytime shade is the output of the muzzle velocity radar

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 13 Sep 2014 10:25

Austin wrote:via saurav jha tweet

BTW please don't think the Dhanush is simply a 45 calibre version of the FH-77B. It is a generation ahead with a lot of valuable electronics

for instance Dhanush has an onboard muzzle velocity radar for recordings. In FH-77B this is done on board.

All ballistic calculations are also done on board using an enhanced tactical computer for the Dhanush.


Image

Image
Image

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Re: Indian Bofors: Auto components leader Bharat Forge turns

Postby RoyG » 13 Sep 2014 10:37



Kiss OFB goodbye in a few years. These guys are one of the biggest parasites on the indian tax payer. DRDO is next.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 13 Sep 2014 10:39

krishnan wrote::rotfl:

what a major goof up in that image , they didnt even notice it before giving it for printing


What incentive do they have to even market their products? They live in a bubble funded by the indian tax payer.

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Re: Indian Bofors: Auto components leader Bharat Forge turns

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 13:18

RoyG wrote:Kiss OFB goodbye in a few years. These guys are one of the biggest parasites on the indian tax payer. DRDO is next.


Not going to happen. Given the budgetary allocations, its clear OFB is being given a overhaul and modernization, and DRDO is well on its way to becoming an end to end weapons system design provider in specific areas (missiles, radars & electronic systems).

There has been a massive increase in funding to the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO). DRDO’s capital allocation of Rs 5,985 crore, provided in February’s interim Budget, has been increased by almost 60 per cent to Rs 9,298 crore — the largest jump in DRDO’s history.

This takes R&D in the defence sector to Rs 15,283 crore, almost seven per cent of the Rs 2,29,000 crore-defence budget. DRDO, which has been receiving about 5 per cent of the defence budget, has long pleaded for 7 to 8 per cent.

The capital allocation for the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which will be used for modernising the ministry’s network of 41 factories that manufacture arms, ammunition and equipment for the military, was doubled. The OFB’s allocation of Rs 530 crore has been raised to Rs 1,207 crore.


http://www.indiandefencereview.com/idr- ... ssue_id=47

The Indian forces requirements are so massive that the combination of pvt and public both will find it hard to meet the demand, and both will serve as a useful check on each other. The GOI doesn't want to be beholden to any price gouging private cartel or an OFB trade union either.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/509940443316908032
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/509938053746421761
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/509940150063742976

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Sep 2014 14:09

nik wrote:We need a gun every 10 KM on Paki border to send cockroaches back in to their holes. Total required = 2900KMS/10KM~300 guns only. With a basic range of 30 kms, we can get 7 guns barraging on any dumb jihadi's head if he gets anywhere near the border.


Waah!! :roll:

Please tell the IA why they continue to have wet-dreams in thousands when they only need 300.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Sep 2014 14:11

hecky wrote:Image


This is intresting, so the DRDO is also thinking on the lines of a larger 25L chamber. Doesnt look like they have made up their mind though!!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 14:58

Depends on what trials throw up. Higher chamber pressure should allow for future proofing tho'..

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Santosh » 14 Sep 2014 02:34

So we now have -
155mm/52 cal Bharat Forge gun which is basically an upgraded GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal upgraded Bofors design by OFB
155mm/52 cal truck mounted TATA/Denel design which is also likely based on GHN/GC-45 design
155mm/52 cal tracked L&T Samsung Vajra ased on K9 design

Technically, they can all win. The towed order can be split between Bharat Forge and OFB. Tata and L&T is lone runners in their respective categories.

Also, is the OFB 155mm/45 cal gun a done deal for IA?


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