Artillery: News & Discussion

suryag
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 09 Apr 2015 00:03

In your dreams guys!! these trials will go on forever

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 09 Apr 2015 08:47

Back to my old suggestion - 500 155 mm guns to border security force with license to fire at will. Enough to cover all Paki border - fire at first sight of anything living walking across.

Suggest using air burst munitions to limit topography damage- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_burst

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Apr 2015 23:16

Dhanush during trials.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 10 Apr 2015 06:14

If I got a proposal from such a beautiful girl would marry her asap.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby chaitanya » 10 Apr 2015 06:41

Nikhil T wrote:
The Army wants 414 such guns. They have been upgraded to 45-calibre from the original 39-calibre to give the new howitzer a 38-km range compared to the 30-km of the original Bofors gun.



I don't understand why the IA is thinking of such a small order at the beginning, I thought all the aging towed artillery needed to be replaced?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 10 Apr 2015 06:43

After failure of ulh deal now
Its ulrv circus about to start.

Idrw has report

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 15 Apr 2015 18:49

Bloomberg TV India ‏@BloombergTVInd 7m7 minutes ago

How can SMEs scale up and deliver on @makeinindia? Catch Kalyani Grp Chairman tonight @8.30pm on #InsideIndia w/ @MiniMenon
Kalyanis have done well but they seem to be getting disproportionate airtime these days. Plus they have recently declared setting up new defense facilities in Gujarat.

Are they on the verge of getting a some Atry orders?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 16 Apr 2015 03:54

pankajs wrote:
Bloomberg TV India ‏@BloombergTVInd 7m7 minutes ago

How can SMEs scale up and deliver on @makeinindia? Catch Kalyani Grp Chairman tonight @8.30pm on #InsideIndia w/ @MiniMenon
Kalyanis have done well but they seem to be getting disproportionate airtime these days.
...


PR is what private companies are good at. They have dedicated sales, marketing and advertising departments that strategize on messaging, promotion and have loads of money to spend at their disposal. Wining, dining and other discrete sales activities of client/media executives are an industry norm too. This is not to take anything from Kalyanis though.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 16 Apr 2015 08:26

^^^ What stops PSU's from doing it. They have people for the job.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pravula » 16 Apr 2015 09:25

deejay wrote:^^^ What stops PSU's from doing it. They have people for the job.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2_Yi-1Ryf4

I think this sums it up well.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Apr 2015 09:55

we need atleast 2 domestic heavy artillery maker (155mm) and 1 domestic (105mm/76mm).
just feeding all the meat to OFB will make for a lazy wolf, secure in the knowledge meat will appear on the plate always.

I think its worth also proofing the GHN45 design and ordering that for atleast 40% of our needs and make it 52cal rather than the dhanush 45cal.
its a bulkier design than the FH77 but in the plains the 52cal will impart a huge range and it will bring kalyani into the ecosystem and develop a umbrella of parts makers.

we operate a zoo of 105mm, 122mm, 130mm, 155m soltam upg to 130mm, fh77......there aint no reason why a duopoly of strong 155mm guns cannot be supported and get rid of the old soviet era pieces all the way down to 105mm.

we need a new 105mm light cannon both towed and 4x4 and defexpo already had a model.

instead of spending our piggy bank on the ^&%$#$# T90, we should be investing in tons of heavy and light artillery....nothing scares people more than good artillery.
in WW2 the american army despite the inferior sherman tank was able to target and beat back german tanks and mech units by pioneering the co-ordinated fire of multiple regiments...the birth pangs of artillery networking and MRSI. and the TSPA artillery is well drilled in these procedures and must have shared the manuals with PLA for sure.

we are setting ourself up for a lot of pain if we think the T90 trooplets are going to solve any problem.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 18 Apr 2015 09:21

Dear friends,
Some interesting aspects of "the Dhanush journey" from Shri N.K. Sinha of OFB; pg 18 onwards.

http://www.claws.in/images/events%20/pdf/1875165708_Seminarreport_Indigenisation_30April2014.pdf

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby putnanja » 18 Apr 2015 09:42

dinesh_kumar wrote:Dear friends,
Some interesting aspects of "the Dhanush journey" from Shri N.K. Sinha of OFB; pg 18 onwards.

http://www.claws.in/images/events%20/pdf/1875165708_Seminarreport_Indigenisation_30April2014.pdf


Error in that URL. File won't open.
This is the right url: http://www.claws.in/images/events/pdf/1 ... il2014.pdf

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 Apr 2015 09:45

Dgmf and arty directorate should be disbanded

Khal drogo must be hired as komissar to push indic things

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 21 Apr 2015 07:28

deejay wrote:^^^ What stops PSU's from doing it. They have people for the job.


Good question. Their communication policies need to change and they probably need to bring in outside help.

Anantha Krishnan's (Tarmak007) did his thesis paper on this:
Impact of Corporate Communication on Internal Public -- A Case Study of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)

ABSTRACT
...
The researcher adopted the stratified random sampling technique. A total of 1050 respondents participated in the survey. The research tool was a questionnaire, built in accordance with the objectives of the study. The questionnaire contained 51 questions, 47 closed-ended and four open-ended.

Using the SPSS software, all of the closed-ended questions were analyzed against different demographic variables (age, gender, education, position, and location of the respondent). Every question has corresponding data, but histograms were presented only for the data deemed significant by the various statistical tests conducted as part of this study. The open-ended questions were analyzed separately.

To summarize the findings of the study in one sentence, Corporate Communication—which is composed of both External and Internal Communication--had a significant impact on the employees of HAL.

HAL’s External Communication created a key impact in a number of ways. First, respondents became more aware of HAL’s communication initiatives. Second, respondents’ perception of HAL’s brand value increased. Third, respondents came to believe that business prospects and work conditions would improve with sustained media campaigns. Fourth, respondents noticed a positive change in the media’s attitude towards HAL, and appreciated that HAL’s External Communication had helped to bring that about. Finally, the respondents felt that their social standing among their friends and family had been elevated due to HAL’s increased media visibility.

HAL’s Internal Communication also had a strong positive influence. First, due to the Internal Communication, the respondents felt better-informed. Second, respondents felt more attached to HAL, and took pride in news about the Company’s achievements. Third, the in-house publications created a sense of bonding among respondents, regardless of their job positions or geographical locations. Finally, the respondents felt that the technical information conveyed through the in-house publications was useful to them in the growth of their careers.

The findings of this research can be used as a reference by HAL when it upgrades its Corporate Communication network in the future. The implications of the study can be used by other Defence PSUs and the Ministry of Defence, when they amend their communication policies. The researcher feels that it would be Corporate Communication practitioners and students who would benefit the most from the study, as it brings to light some simple, yet effective, communication tools used in HAL.
...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 22 Apr 2015 02:43

Modernising artillery to fight future wars
Modernisation of artillery has been neglected for over two decades. This despite the lessons learnt during the Kargil conflict of 1999, in which artillery firepower had undeniably paved the way for victory.

AFTER a decade of neglect under the two UPA regimes, military modernisation appears to be picking up pace again under the new NDA government. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), headed by interim Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, had approved projects worth Rs 80,000 crore in October 2014. The new Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar, while chairing his maiden meeting of the DAC on November 22, 2014, cleared the long-pending proposal to acquire 814 truck-mounted guns of 155 mm/ 52-calibre for approximately Rs 15,750 crore. However, the approval merely amounted to “acceptance of necessity” (AON) — the first step in the acquisition process. It will be many years before the first few regiments are equipped with these guns.

Limitations of manoeuvre
Firepower and manoeuvre are generally considered the two complementary sides of the tactics coin. During future conventional conflict on the Indian Sub-continent, large-scale manoeuvre will not be possible in the mountains due to the restrictions imposed by the difficult terrain and in the plains against Pakistan due to the need to avoid escalation to nuclear levels. Hence, India's firepower capabilities need to be enhanced by an order of magnitude, especially in terms of Precision-Guided Munitions (PGMs). This will require substantial upgradation of the firepower capabilities of India's armed forces. Ground-based firepower resources comprising artillery guns, rockets and missiles and aerially-delivered firepower consisting of fighter-bomber aircraft and attack helicopters, both must be qualitatively as well as quantitatively augmented. Similarly, sea-to-land attack capabilities must also be enhanced.

Modernisation of the artillery has been neglected for over two decades, despite the lessons learnt during the Kargil conflict of 1999, in which artillery firepower had undeniably paved the way for victory. Approximately 400 pieces of the 155 mm/39-calibre FH-77B Bofors howitzers were acquired over 25 years ago. Though India paid for the designs, the guns were never manufactured locally as commissions were alleged to have been paid and Bofors brought down a government.

Since then, no new guns or howitzers have been introduced into service. The artillery is now equipped with obsolescent weapons and equipment like the 105 mm Indian Field Gun (IFG) that needs immediate replacement. The artillery also requires large quantities of precision guided munitions (PGMs) for the destruction of hard targets such as tanks and bunkers and a potent real-time reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition (RSTA) capability. And, in view of their performance in Afghanistan and Iraq, the time has come to add UCAVs armed with PGMs to the artillery's arsenal. Only then will it be possible to achieve future military objectives, including the destruction of the adversary's war machinery.

Large-scale overhaul
Under the army's Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan (FARP) formulated in 1999, the Regiment of Artillery had decided to standardise the calibre of its guns at 155 mm so as to ensure commonality of ammunition. The artillery plans to acquire a total of 2,820 guns of all types to replace obsolescent guns and to equip the new regiments that will form part of 17 Corps, the Mountain Strike Corps now under raising. The modernisation plan had been stymied by the blacklisting of some firms in the fray. One example is that of the project for the acquisition of 180 pieces of 155mm/52-caliber wheeled self-propelled (SP) guns.

The tender was cancelled after the trials were completed. The contenders included Rheinmetal Defence of Germany and Konstrukta of the Slovak Republic. Fresh tenders were issued and the proposals received are being reviewed. The primary contenders now are the Teckwin 'K-9 Thunder' of Samsung, South Korea and the Russian Rosoboronexport's tracked gun, which is an upgraded 155 mm version of the 152 mm MSTA-S SP Gun.

The single largest artillery acquisition will be of 1,580 pieces of towed 155 mm/52-calibre guns over a period of 12 to 15 years. Of these, 400 guns are to be imported and the remaining 1,180 produced in India with transfer of technology (ToT). Over the last eight to 10 years, several request for proposals that were floated for this project were cancelled due to the corrupt practices being followed by some companies. New tenders were floated for 155 mm/52-calibre long-range guns for the plains and trials have been underway since October 2013. Trials are also reported to be in progress for 100 pieces of self-propelled guns for the desert terrain. 180 pieces of 130 mm M46 Russian guns have been upgraded to 155mm/45-caliber with kits supplied by Soltam of Israel. The maximum range of the gun has gone up from 27.5 to 39 km. Another 300 guns are proposed to be upgraded in due course.

Taking to long to decide

The MoD is also considering the acquisition of 145 pieces of 155 mm/39-calibre M777 howitzers of the US-based MNC BAE Systems for the mountains through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route from the US in a government-to-government deal. However, the deal is reportedly stuck for want of agreement on the offsets obligations and upward revision in the price intimated to Congress by the US government from $647 million to $885 million. Also, as India has taken too long to decide, some of the factories involved in the manufacture of various components of the M777 have begun to close down. If this acquisition falls through, the process will have to begin afresh.

Indigenous efforts to manufacture 155 mm howitzers include that by the Ordnance Factories Board to produce a 45-calibre 155 mm howitzer. This project was initially based on the designs for which Transfer of Technology (ToT) was obtained from Bofors in the 1980s, but has matured into an indigenous design during development.

Technical trials
The DAC approved a proposal from the OFB to manufacture 144 pieces of 155 mm/45-calibre howitzers with the option to acquire another 400 provided the prototypes successfully meet the army's GSQR in user trials. The prototype of the OFB gun is undergoing technical trials. Meanwhile, the DRDO has embarked on its own venture to design and develop a 155 mm howitzer in partnership with a private sector company. The acquisition of 814 truck-mounted guns that has been approved by the Defence Minister recently will be undertaken under the “buy and make in India” category with ToT. While the first 100 guns will be imported, the remaining 714 will be produced in India. The total project cost is estimated to be Rs 15,750 crore.

Several Indian companies are known to be interested in the indigenous design and development of modern artillery systems in conjunction with overseas partners. Bharat Forge (partner Elbit of Israel), Tata Power SED (Denel, South Africa) and L&T (Nexter, France) are likely to bid for this contract when the RfP is issued by the MoD.

Rocket launchers
Progress on the multi-barrel rocket launcher front has been better than that in the acquisition of tube artillery. A contract for the acquisition of two regiments of the 12-tube, 300 mm Smerch multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) system with 90 km range was signed with Russia's Rosoboronexport in early-2006. The BrahMos supersonic cruise missile (Mach 2.8 to 3.0), with a precision strike capability, very high kill energy and maximum range of 290 km, was inducted into the army in July 2007.

These terrain-hugging missiles are virtually immune to counter measures due to their high speed and very low radar cross section. The indigenously designed and manufactured Pinaka multi-barrel rocket system is likely to enter service in the near future. These three weapon systems together will provide a major boost to the artillery's ability to destroy key targets at long ranges. However, a surface-to-surface missile (SSM), with a range of 500-600 km, so that it can be fired from the plains on targets in Tibet, is the missing link in planning for a future war in the mountains.

Counter-bombardment capability
The counter-bombardment capability of the Army also needs to be upgraded. At least about 40 to 50 weapon-locating radars (WLRs) are required for effective counter-bombardment, especially in the plains, but only 12 AN-TPQ 37 Firefinder WLRs have been acquired from Raytheon, USA, under a 2002 contract worth US$200 million. Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Limited is reported to be assembling 28 WLRs.

These radars will be based primarily on indigenous components with very little import content and are likely to be approved for introduction into service after extensive trials that are ongoing. The radar is expected to match the capabilities of the Firefinder system and will have a detection range of about 40 km.

Artillery modernisation must be given a major boost so that the Army's firepower is enhanced quickly to the levels required to ensure victory on future battlefields. In conjunction with aerially delivered firepower, the artillery is the only combat arm that can cause degradation and destruction of the adversary's combat potential and ultimately break his will to fight.

Any further delay in the implementation of artillery modernisation plans will be extremely detrimental to national security interests. If the new projects that are now in the pipeline are pursued vigorously, artillery modernisation will once again begin to gather steam.

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Home grown 155mm 45 Calib Arty Gun Dhanush

Postby member_28990 » 27 Apr 2015 11:33

From Sitanshu Kar, Principal Spokesperson, Ministry of Defence, Government of India, via twitter


With the offset regime in place, OFB is looking towards delivering many sub-systems to leading overseas players:@manoharparrikar

OFB's new role will encompass design, development, bulk production and life cycle support of equipment: @manoharparrikar

OFB is undergoing a paradigm shift from a manufacturer of defence equipment to a complete solution provider: @manoharparrikar

Quality audit of 8 #OFB factories will be undertaken by a globally reputed firm to improve process & quality of products: @manoharparrikar

Ordnance Factory Board will adopt the best practices of a commercial department with a commercial accounting system:@manoharparrikar

Home grown 155mm 45 Calib Arty Gun Dhanush has met all tech parameters in Winter and Summer Trials:@manoharparrikar


Lungi Dance Time?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sum » 27 Apr 2015 11:53

Home grown 155mm 45 Calib Arty Gun Dhanush has met all tech parameters in Winter and Summer Trials:@manoharparrikar

Maybe next in line is spring and monsoon trials?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 27 Apr 2015 15:58

Will Army move the goal posts or place order for balance 1580-144=1436 Howitzers on OFB?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 27 Apr 2015 16:14

Frankly Dhanush was only a part of the requirements. So instead of paltry 144 we might see 414. The bulk of the procurement will be a mix of other options.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 27 Apr 2015 17:33

MoD and IA should finalize and place order for 414 Dhanush and MP should specify to OFB, that the project will be monitored closely and any lapse in the manufacturing or quality control will not go unpunished.

Apart from Dhanush, the upgradation of 300-400 M46 guns, should also be given to OFB. It is well within their scope and they had developed the prototypes for the same. To go along with GCF-Jabalpur and Kanpur OFB etc, the Vehicles factory Jabalpur, should be put under GCF and converted to work on the M46 upgrade project. Ashok Leyland can make all the stallion truck themselves.

The order for 180 nos. of Bhim should also be finalized. Denel is now no longer on the blacklist. Bhim is tested and ready concept. Place the above orders and get the ball rolling on the artillery rationalization project.

The bigger orders for towed and wheeled guns can follow later, once the private players and DRDO have ready prototypes to offer.

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Re: Home grown 155mm 45 Calib Arty Gun Dhanush

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Apr 2015 18:29

maxratul wrote:From Sitanshu Kar, Principal Spokesperson, Ministry of Defence, Government of India, via twitter


With the offset regime in place, OFB is looking towards delivering many sub-systems to leading overseas players:@manoharparrikar

OFB's new role will encompass design, development, bulk production and life cycle support of equipment: @manoharparrikar

OFB is undergoing a paradigm shift from a manufacturer of defence equipment to a complete solution provider: @manoharparrikar

Quality audit of 8 #OFB factories will be undertaken by a globally reputed firm to improve process & quality of products: @manoharparrikar

Ordnance Factory Board will adopt the best practices of a commercial department with a commercial accounting system:@manoharparrikar

Home grown 155mm 45 Calib Arty Gun Dhanush has met all tech parameters in Winter and Summer Trials:@manoharparrikar


Lungi Dance Time?


Silent Lungi dance time indeed. Even minor improvements in quality from OFB will bring huge cheers from the services.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pragnya » 27 Apr 2015 18:58

great news indeed this.

mody wrote:MoD and IA should finalize and place order for 414 Dhanush and MP should specify to OFB, that the project will be monitored closely and any lapse in the manufacturing or quality control will not go unpunished.


right.

Apart from Dhanush, the upgradation of 300-400 M46 guns, should also be given to OFB. It is well within their scope and they had developed the prototypes for the same. To go along with GCF-Jabalpur and Kanpur OFB etc, the Vehicles factory Jabalpur, should be put under GCF and converted to work on the M46 upgrade project. Ashok Leyland can make all the stallion truck themselves.


according to the info given by the then minister, OFB would be able to produce 24 guns after the first year from 'bulk' clearance. i think it would be better all those non upgraded M46 guns are retired progressively and even the upgraded ones too later. these are long in tooth and must be a maintainence nightmare!! if needed may be the production rate can be jacked up to say 36 or 48/yr so these can be gotten away quickly.

The order for 180 nos. of Bhim should also be finalized. Denel is now no longer on the blacklist. Bhim is tested and ready concept. Place the above orders and get the ball rolling on the artillery rationalization project.

The bigger orders for towed and wheeled guns can follow later, once the private players and DRDO have ready prototypes to offer.


agree with that.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Apr 2015 19:17

pragnya wrote:great news indeed this.

Apart from Dhanush, the upgradation of 300-400 M46 guns, should also be given to OFB. It is well within their scope and they had developed the prototypes for the same. To go along with GCF-Jabalpur and Kanpur OFB etc, the Vehicles factory Jabalpur, should be put under GCF and converted to work on the M46 upgrade project. Ashok Leyland can make all the stallion truck themselves.


according to the info given by the then minister, OFB would be able to produce 24 guns after the first year from 'bulk' clearance. i think it would be better all those non upgraded M46 guns are retired progressively and even the upgraded ones too later. these are long in tooth and must be a maintainence nightmare!! if needed may be the production rate can be jacked up to say 36 or 48/yr so these can be gotten away quickly.


M-46 upgrade should be proving grounds for private sector players. Its easy to slap indigenous label on imported guns like all the private players are doing. Doing low margin upgrade work where you won't have anything left once you pay off your gora "consultants", that's where their inhouse design capabilities will be put to test if they have to remain competitive.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 27 Apr 2015 20:20


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_23694 » 27 Apr 2015 20:44

With the offset regime in place, OFB is looking towards delivering many sub-systems to leading overseas players:@manoharparrikar
OFB's new role will encompass design, development, bulk production and life cycle support of equipment: @manoharparrikar
OFB is undergoing a paradigm shift from a manufacturer of defence equipment to a complete solution provider: @manoharparrikar
Quality audit of 8 #OFB factories will be undertaken by a globally reputed firm to improve process & quality of products: @manoharparrikar
Ordnance Factory Board will adopt the best practices of a commercial department with a commercial accounting system:@manoharparrikar
Home grown 155mm 45 Calib Arty Gun Dhanush has met all tech parameters in Winter and Summer Trials:@manoharparrikar


Welcome news and quite a change from the past when
Gen VK Singh in his book " Courage and Conviction" mentions that the manufacturing plans and know how and wherewith all was always there with the OFB. And that on a visit to the OFB the army top brass was shocked, when they found out about it. For decades, OFB guys were just sitting on it, MOD was unaware, Army was unaware. All this time army desperately needs guns.

Good for the country

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pragnya » 27 Apr 2015 20:52

Thakur_B wrote:M-46 upgrade should be proving grounds for private sector players. Its easy to slap indigenous label on imported guns like all the private players are doing. Doing low margin upgrade work where you won't have anything left once you pay off your gora "consultants", that's where their inhouse design capabilities will be put to test if they have to remain competitive.


i don't disagree with your larger point of providing ground to the pvt sector but these guns are very old and if IA wanted them to be upgraded they would have done it long back as Punj Lloyd, some others and OFB itself were offering it for a long time now. the fact that they do not want to do it for both logistical, maintainence and economical reasons (my guess), it begs the question. whether modern guns are needed or not considering no guns have been inducted for 2 decades now?

may be the other way is to open another line for the pvt sector so these M46s are disposed off quickly.

besides i hope the pvt sector will be part of the other acquisitions planned for artillery modernisation programme of the IA.

rider : ofc i am not well versed with these systems. if M46s have enough life and can be handled trouble free, i am all for it. but the upgrade itself will take lot of time and money which can be better invested in the newer guns. the newer guns cost 12-14 crores as per the news report. how much will the upgrade cost?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Apr 2015 21:41

pragnya wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:M-46 upgrade should be proving grounds for private sector players. Its easy to slap indigenous label on imported guns like all the private players are doing. Doing low margin upgrade work where you won't have anything left once you pay off your gora "consultants", that's where their inhouse design capabilities will be put to test if they have to remain competitive.


i don't disagree with your larger point of providing ground to the pvt sector but these guns are very old and if IA wanted them to be upgraded they would have done it long back as Punj Lloyd, some others and OFB itself were offering it for a long time now. the fact that they do not want to do it for both logistical, maintainence and economical reasons (my guess), it begs the question. whether modern guns are needed or not considering no guns have been inducted for 2 decades now?


The M-46 upgrade program is being restarted, with OFB and private sector players to compete for orders.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 27 Apr 2015 23:56

I think that M-46 upgrade should be given to Pvt sector. Rhetoric aside, OFB has been slowly setting up facilities to produce various components of Bofors for almost two decades and Dhanush is the culmination of those efforts.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 28 Apr 2015 02:01

^^^^^Indian Army hands over first M-46 guns for upgrade contest.

The Indian Army on 10 September approved the release of four Soviet-era M-46 130 mm field guns to four local contractors that will upgrade them to 155 mm/45 calibre standard.

Industry sources told IHS Jane's that the guns would be handed over to Bharat Forge, Punj Lloyd and Tata from the private sector and the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) sometime in October.

The four companies, which will be allowed to form overseas tie-ups for the upgrade, will have 12 months to complete the retrofit before offering the guns for trials. Thereafter, one gun will be shortlisted and its vendor awarded a tender to upgrade 300 M-46s.

The OFB and Israel's Soltam upgraded 180 M-46s to 155 mm/45 calibre under a USD45,524,137 contract awarded in 2001; they equip 10 artillery regiments.

The M-46 upgrade is a delayed response to the army's 1999 Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which aims by 2027 to acquire 2,800-3,000 155 mm/52-calibre towed, wheeled, tracked and mounted guns and 155 mm/39-calibre lightweight howitzers.

India's last major artillery acquisition was the 1987 purchase of 410 Bofors FH-77B 155 mm/39-calibre towed howitzers from Sweden. The army currently has around 200 guns in service following cannibalisation due to a shortage of spares.

The army is planning to buy 144 OFB-built 155/45 cal FH-77Bs, prototypes of which are in their final round of trials.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby hanumadu » 28 Apr 2015 03:29

Trials a hit, desi Bofors outguns Swedish original

NEW DELHI: This is one 'Make in India' defence project that is now finally booming. The desi howitzer, christened Dhanush, can outgun the original Swedish Bofors 155mm artillery gun in range, accuracy, reliability, angle of fire and shoot-and-scoot capabilities.

The Army is now getting set to induct the first battery of six Dhanush guns, which will be the first 155mm howitzers to be acquired by the force since the infamous Bofors scandal torpedoed all its artillery modernisation plans in the mid-1980s.

Recurring scandals in artillery procurement projects kept it derailed thereafter, with the infamous Bofors ghost looming large over attempts to plug the Army's operational gaps in long-range, high volume firepower.

Ironically enough, it's the original Bofors gun that came to the rescue of the beleaguered force. The Army-DRDO-OFB team kicked off work on the long-forgotten original designs, obtained under transfer of technology provisions in the infamous Rs 1,437 crore Bofors contract of 1986, a few years ago. It has led to the electronically upgraded Dhanush howitzer now.




Defence minister Manohar Parrikar told the parliamentary consultative committee on defence on Monday that the 155mm/45-calibre Dhanush howitzers had "successfully met all technical parameters" during the winter and summer trials at Sikkim and Pokhran. Dhanush incorporates "many improved features" over the Army's existing artillery guns, he added.

While the first battery of guns would be ready "in a couple of months", the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is stepping up its manufacturing line for "bulk production" at the Jabalpur Gun Carriage Factory from 2016 onwards.

"The first order for 114 guns worth Rs 1,260 crore, already indented by the Army, would be completed in a three-year timeframe. The production capacity will go up to 30-35 guns a year. The Army has said it eventually requires 414 such guns," said a source.

The desi howitzer has been upgraded to 45-calibre from the 39-calibre of the original Bofors gun to extend its strike range to 38 km with "extended range, full-bore" ammunition. Costing around Rs 14 crore apiece, the Dhanush is about 83% indigenous. "The ore to steel for the gun barrel is made by the OFB. The only imported parts are the auxiliary power units, electronic dial sights and some others," said the source.

There was a major hiccup in the project when a Dhanush prototype's barrel burst during firing trials at Pokhran in August 2013. But a detailed analysis showed the problem was due to the usage of 12-year-old ammunition rather than the howitzer itself. "The trials took around two years to reach this stage," he added.

The Dhanush, however, will plug just a small operational gap. The overall artillery modernisation plan for 155mm/52-calibre guns, worth around Rs 1 lakh crore, envisages the induction of 814 mounted, 1,580 towed, 180 wheeled and 100 tracked guns, among others.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 28 Apr 2015 06:47

Gyan wrote:Will Army move the goal posts or place order for balance 1580-144=1436 Howitzers on OFB?


The plan was to have 52 calbier guns. The order for 414 guns is a compromise on the part of the army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pragnya » 28 Apr 2015 07:01

Thakur_B wrote:The M-46 upgrade program is being restarted, with OFB and private sector players to compete for orders.


thanks for the confirmation which validates your point as evidenced by Vipul's post ammediately after but note the date of the report - 14th sept 2014. it says the guns to be handed over by october 2014. have they been handed over? if yes, they should be available for evaluation by october 2015. hope this is on as i have not seen any reports (may be i have not put any effort) of it moving forward. if the army in it's wisdom thinks there is sense in these upgrades, so be it as they must have factored in all issues.

however is it cost effective as Punj lloyd's upg involves pretty much everything as a new gun as this shows.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Nikhil T » 28 Apr 2015 07:16

Ajai Shukla: Dhanush gun clears army trials

The Indian Army’s most worrying operational gap --- that of field artillery guns to support infantry and armour in battle --- is gradually being filled. An Indian 155 millimetre, 45-calibre artillery gun called the Dhanush has cleared its field trials and is ready for manufacture in numbers.

Talking to Parliament’s consultative committee on Monday, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said “Dhanush has successfully met all technical parameters during the winter and summer trials. Dhanush incorporates many improved features than the guns [that] the Army is possessing at present”.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has built the Dhanush from manufacturing blueprints that Swedish company, Bofors, supplied India as part of the controversial 1986 purchase of 410 FH-77 howitzers. The OFB was going to build over a thousand of these howitzers in India, but allegations of kickbacks scuttled that plan; for years, OFB sat on the blueprints.

Now, it has not only figured out how to build these guns, but has upgraded these from the FH-77’s original 39-calibre to a more robust 45-calibre howitzer.

A higher calibre denotes a longer barrel and, consequently, a longer range. OFB officials say that upgrading the 39-calibre FH-77 into the 45-calibre Dhanush has increased the gun’s range from 27 kilometres to 38 kilometres, using enhanced range ammunition.

The OFB, it is learnt, will now receive an order for building 114 Dhanush guns, to equip 6 artillery regiments. If these guns perform to the army’s satisfaction, the order could go up to about 400 guns.

So far, the army is satisfied with the performance of the Dhanush during winter trials that were carried out in Sikkim and summer trials in Rajasthan last year.

Overall, the artillery consists of 264 regiments, many of them holding 105 and 130 millimetre guns. However, it has been decided that its basic gun will be 155 millimetres, so that their heavier shells can pulverize a piece of ground before infantry soldiers or tanks move to capture it, reducing casualties.

The artillery lobs shells from as far away as 20 kilometres, but has historically caused more battlefield casualties than any other arm.

With India having concluded no big artillery purchase since the 1980s, a range of tenders are now out for procuring modern artillery.

The purchase of 145 ultralight howitzers (ULH) from BAE Systems is being processed with the US government. With BAE Systems demanding close to $700 million (Rs 4,500 crore), the government has told parliament the price is too high.

Even so, the ULH is considered essential for the army’s new, but now-curtailed, mountain strike corps. Weighing only 4.2 tonnes (compared to the Dhanush’s 10 tonnes) the ULH can be transported rapidly by helicopters in the mountains.

Separately, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is partnering private firms like L&T, Bharat Forge and Tata Power SED in a Rs 700 crore project to build the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun (ATAG). This 155-millimetre, 52-calibre gun could have a planned range of 60 kilometres, while weighing just 12 tonnes.

In November, Parrikar sanctioned the purchase of 814 mounted gun systems (MGS) for an estimated Rs 15,750 crore. In this tender, Indian companies will establish joint ventures with foreign gun-makers.

To equip the artillery until the indigenous projects fructify, tenders have been floated in three more categories of 155 millimetre guns. These are for purchasing (a) 1,580 towed guns; (b) 100 tracked (self-propelled) guns; and (c) 180 wheeled (self-propelled) guns.

Towed guns are for regular use in plains and gentle mountains; tracked (self-propelled) guns are mounted in armoured vehicles to support tank formations; wheeled (self-propelled) guns are for fast-moving, non-armoured formations; The MGS is a regular 155-millimetre gun fitted onto a high mobility vehicle. This allows it to move faster and start firing quicker than a conventional towed gun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 28 Apr 2015 08:29

I think the drawings of Dhanush/Bofors should be released to Pvt sector and versions like towed, mounted, tracked, upgrades etc should be based on Dhanush & awarded om competitive basis.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Abhay_S » 28 Apr 2015 08:40

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 31m 31 minutes ago
OFB is also working on a 52 cal Dhanush.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 28 Apr 2015 09:56

As per official information per PBI link, the production rate will go up to 60 howitzers in third year. So I assume OFB should be able to manufacture 440 howitzers in next 6 years followed by 52 caliber Dhanush and then say ATAGS from 10th year onwards.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2015 10:21

imo no point putting all eggs in OFB basket and creating another HAL type sarkari monopoly. sure give them half the 52cal order when it passes trials, meantime test and quality the Kalyani 52cal (GC45 based) and let them start making half the 52cal in the 100s for the other half.
the shells are all compliant and either gun can fire the shells. the 52cal just needs a bigger charge for the longer ranges.

we need atleast 2 strong desi players in artillery given the scale of our needs.

PMO needs to come down very hard on DGMF and Arty directorate to speed up trials, stop moaning for unobtainium iphone7 products like Archer and order and deploy desi kit to fullest extent.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Apr 2015 10:30

If OFB is actually working on a 52cal variant then its good news. They are finally showing some aggression. Where will the DRDO gun now fit in would be a good question to be asked, your basic towed gun needs to be ultimately of the same type. They should also be able to scale up more quickly than the DRDO with way lesser risks.

One only needs to go to a Med Regt, the IA showers nothing but praise on what is clearly a sound design. Now they are getting what they have preferred all along. Incidently the Bofors wasn't the first choice during the original tender. Rajiv Govt went in for Bofors after Pakistan acquired WLR's.

They also need to quickly select prime movers for them and Pinaka batteries in double time for additional pending orders which has suffered as the MoD still has to downselect a truck!!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby K Mehta » 28 Apr 2015 15:24

I feel this is a very small number and also the 100 first then 400 deal does not seem right.

For all these years we have been hearing about lack of artillery and also know the number of hoops this design has been made to undergo. We have lost a year due to use of faulty ammunition. I mean what kind of army uses faulty ammunition for such critical trials.

The number required is supposed to be in thousands and here we are ordering in hundreds? Also has the army factored in the inefficiency of the OFB and tried to get a higher rate of production to offset that?

If the same OFB is working on a higher cal model why not pour in more money in this to speed up the development of that as well?

If anything the MHA should add an order for the BSF allowing higher production rate.


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