Artillery: News & Discussion

deejay
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 08 May 2015 15:54

Thakur_B wrote:
Gyan wrote:
The type of knowledge and information soldiers have is sometimes very different than Defense academics/scientists/engineers and even amateurs. For instance, hardly any soldier will know the exact length of barrel or muzzle velocity of INSAS rifle but they can dismantle & reassemble the rifle blind fold!


Do it enough times with the drill instructor screaming in your ears and you too might be able to do it.



:rotfl: Seriously :rotfl: You made me remember - "I love my rifle"

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby putnanja » 08 May 2015 18:23

Wasn't there a news item sometime back that the barrel's tech cannot be imported for M777(US govt restriction?), so it has to be imported in full for assembly here?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 May 2015 18:37

those kind of clauses will always be there regardless of claims that assembly line will be moved.
assembly line moving does not mean subsystem all suppliers will move.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 08 May 2015 19:56

rkhanna wrote:3. Titanium is a commodity - How much reserves do we have? If our Internal needs are being met why cant we export the commodity - which it is. nothing more nothing less.


OT but almost everything is a commodity till you start running out of it. Then it becomes a scarce resource and the strategic stockpiling stuff starts.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 May 2015 20:16

the titantium parts were made by a part of Alcoa named howmet in michigan and ohio
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?Articl ... Production

now you tell me if they will be relocating to pune :rotfl:

see their customer list - its a whos who of the big boys https://www.alcoa.com/howmet/en/info_pa ... i-Cast.pdf
even samsung for all of Soko's strength in steel industry buys from them/ i have no doubt even their SP gun in our race has alcoa howmet parts in it.

khan chacha is second to none in high precision high cost metal working and use of exotic materials.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 10 May 2015 16:01

BAE has only offered assembly in India with ZERO manufactering. Go screwdrivergiri!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArmenT » 10 May 2015 23:34

Karan M wrote:
rkhanna wrote:3. Titanium is a commodity - How much reserves do we have? If our Internal needs are being met why cant we export the commodity - which it is. nothing more nothing less.


OT but almost everything is a commodity till you start running out of it. Then it becomes a scarce resource and the strategic stockpiling stuff starts.

Interesting thing about titanium is that it is a fairly commonly occurring element (7th most common metal and 9th most common element on earth) and occurs in many minerals. The only trouble is that extracting the titanium is only commercially viable from a few minerals and finding large concentrated deposits of these are relatively rare. Research is still happening to find better processes to extract it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 11 May 2015 00:03

India managed to get a titanium processing plant running last year IIRC for making its own stuff. Per se, I'd rather we imported and saved our own reserves for everything, but then it becomes so cost prohibitive that the strategic value becomes questionable (money saved could be used for many other high value activities). Thats actually the crux of the current Govts ire with Green Peace, Ford Foundation and many other such organizations which the GOI believes are a cats paw for vested interests which block mineral development/extraction in India so as to force India into costly imports. Another interesting thing is that post the Ukrainian crisis and the US vs Russia throwdown (sanctions and what not), US is said to have started stockpiling Titanium per media (VDM?) reports. Looks like Russia remains a top dawg in that field.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby partha » 11 May 2015 11:21

Karan M wrote:Another interesting thing is that post the Ukrainian crisis and the US vs Russia throwdown (sanctions and what not), US is said to have started stockpiling Titanium per media (VDM?) reports. Looks like Russia remains a top dawg in that field.

I remember reading in a book how CIA setup a complex web of front companies to import titanium from USSR for Lockheed's Blackbird SR71 plane at the height of cold war to be used against USSR.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 13 May 2015 22:09

DAC clears M777 purchase.

Word on Twitter is that the kalyani light gun is almost ready for approval. Do we need more light guns than the M777 ones we're getting. Local vs foreign is of course a no brainer.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 13 May 2015 22:20

A little artillery levity is in order:

How not to move an artillery piece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... truck.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 13 May 2015 22:53

to me the only virtue of the M777 seems to be its light weight. other than it needs a very large crew of troops like 10 to service it during firing....a truck mounted system like the mighty Archer outguns and outranges it by miles . with manual loading, it is unlikely to be able to participate in intimidating co-ordinated multi regiment MRSI attacks where 10s of rounds drop on target area within few seconds.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 13 May 2015 22:57

I figure the kalyani soln would have been cheaper if they considered it. the mandus group which provided the technology maintains the M198 guns for us army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2015 23:52

Ajai Shukla was right in that in India, Defence Minister is just Defence Acquisition Minister.
Parrikar saar has said a lot of good sounding stuff about local industry, his ability to make quick decisions and generally talked things up. Yet to see that acumen translate into significant push for local programs.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2015 01:59

Karan: There is a saying....you campaign in poetry, but govern in prose. Reality has struck our Raksha Mantri and our Prime Minister. No fault of theirs necessarily, because they do mean well, however they are faced with a lumbering, slothful & corrupt bureaucracy and industry that for the past 68 years has always lived by the mantra Chalta Hai. We SDREs are like this onlee. Dassault had to remind us, quite embarrassingly, that they have no faith in HAL's ability to deliver a quality product.

P.S. It is not for a lack of will or technical know how (Tejas, Arjun, INSAS, our in house naval design bureau are just a few to dispel such a myth) but rather it is a mix of vested interests, lobbyists i.e. our very own Philip :roll:, and the reasons above to explain the present malaise. That combined with a healthy dose of Bofors which neutered us quite badly. We became impotent in our decision making because of Bofors. This is why we are still among the top arms importers in the world.

I have said this before and I will keep saying it. We need excellent project managers that can ruthlessly cut through red tape and people to stay on focus and achieve the goal. Bash on Regardless! :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 14 May 2015 04:29

Singha wrote:I figure the kalyani soln would have been cheaper if they considered it. the mandus group which provided the technology maintains the M198 guns for us army.


Singha ji:

Just because the M777 has been ordered, it does not mean the Kalyani gun will not be.

I think the Kalyani gun will be ordered when it is ready, tested and accepted by the army.

In the meantime, the window on the M777 was closing, hence the order. BAe sweetened the deal by offering to assemble in India. Depending upon who they choose as their Indian partner (my guess is that it will be Mahindra), you will develop skills and capability over time. It will also lay the Bofors' ghost to rest forever, by letting its successor in through the backdoor.

The mountains can absorb both the M777 and the Kalyani gun.

JMHO

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 May 2015 09:02

though I am no mil expert, I figure a mechanized attack presents a complex moving target in a small time window in which it can be targeted before they break through and disperse widely in our rear. so the ability to quickly co-ordinate say 48 guns in range for a MRSI fire mission is paramount and hence all the best howitzers have a salvo fire "berserk/melee combat" mode in which they can unleash 12-15 rounds within one minute just once before cooling down and use trajectory selection and different charges to have them land nearly at same time. extra bonus is if intelligent submunitions like skeet can be delivered else contact HE.

the M777 with its ponderous manual crew and no automation to save weight sounds like the kind of gun you have to periodically fire a round or two to keep good taliban/bush militia at bay. for the real serious stuff the US army has MASSES of M198 SP guns....something like 150-200 were attached to the oversized corps that marched through western desert to baghdad in OIF.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 14 May 2015 12:21

20 crores for each M777 gun. Don't like this deal. Its not really going to give us a big advantage in the mountains that its being brought in for. JMT

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 14 May 2015 13:41

Rakesh wrote:Karan: There is a saying....you campaign in poetry, but govern in prose. Reality has struck our Raksha Mantri and our Prime Minister. No fault of theirs necessarily, because they do mean well, however they are faced with a lumbering, slothful & corrupt bureaucracy and industry that for the past 68 years has always lived by the mantra Chalta Hai. We SDREs are like this onlee. Dassault had to remind us, quite embarrassingly, that they have no faith in HAL's ability to deliver a quality product.


IMHO..Dassault basically did something simpler. I bet they got enough inside data from leaks in MOD on IAF to know that if they held out, the MOD would have to cave in. I wonder why exactly the MOD is not investigating how shoddily the existing documentation was set up that only Dassault could be chosen even after the data coming in showed they were not L1? I am now inclined to believe this was a setup once IAF tech trial results came in, a deal was struck by previous dispensation so that on paper they couldnt be faulted (but nuances were something else) & the D-guys just played a savvy waiting game. If HAL could make the Su-30, the Rafale would not have been that different. New processes and what not, but they could do it. MDL made Scorpenes after decades of not even working on subs.

P.S. It is not for a lack of will or technical know how (Tejas, Arjun, INSAS, our in house naval design bureau are just a few to dispel such a myth) but rather it is a mix of vested interests, lobbyists i.e. our very own Philip :roll:, and the reasons above to explain the present malaise. That combined with a healthy dose of Bofors which neutered us quite badly. We became impotent in our decision making because of Bofors. This is why we are still among the top arms importers in the world.

I have said this before and I will keep saying it. We need excellent project managers that can ruthlessly cut through red tape and people to stay on focus and achieve the goal. Bash on Regardless! :)


Completely agree. Arms imports are a nice way to make money & shills do everything they can to run down Indian interests and promote their respective masters.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 May 2015 13:51

and even now none has tasked the OFB and other agencies to create a modern replacement for the 105mm gun.
that will be another $5b tab somewhere down the line. the claim is 105mm is useless and only 155 is kosher.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 14 May 2015 14:06

FWIW.....My paanwala tells me the MoD baboos pushed the M777 ahead of the more crucial MGS.

Real headstumper this one....I am lost how the good Deepak Parekh figures into all this....

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 14 May 2015 14:17

It could be that the M777 is the last gun standing with the Pegasus out of the picture. With the MGS, we still have to go through the selection process before the finalists are left standing and a decision can be taken.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 14 May 2015 15:13

M777 is purchased. Now the question is how it will be transported?

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1943.html
It can be internally transported in a number of transport aircraft including the C-130, C-141, C-5 and C-160 Transall. It can also be transported slung under the UH-60L/UH-60M Black Hawk and CH-53E/CH-53D helicopters and the MV-22 Osprey.
Now which is the helicopter in our inventory that can lift the M777

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 14 May 2015 15:40

Let not get into the Air transportation of guns business. It could work as an exception, but we lack the organic airlift needed to do it as a matter of course. The guns will have to be moved by FAT's.

The light weight of the gun could mean that it can go wherever the Stallion 4*4 can go. If the truck can tow 5 ton loads.

Other than that, I cant see how this will help the deployment of heavy guns in the IA.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 May 2015 15:54

M777 -> chinook is now a "necessity" :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 14 May 2015 16:18

No, cause the measly numbers that India is thinking of buying will not be sufficient to do the job.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2015 20:20

Karan M wrote:If HAL could make the Su-30, the Rafale would not have been that different. New processes and what not, but they could do it. MDL made Scorpenes after decades of not even working on subs.

I believe - please correct me if I am wrong - Dassault used the excuse that they use machines to fabricate the composites, while at HAL they still build it by hand. A pathetic excuse, if true, that we believed & swallowed hook, line & sinker.

Singha wrote:M777 -> chinook is now a "necessity" :mrgreen:

Exactly! One compliments the other. A marriage made in heaven!

http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_M777_Canadian_Under_CH-47_lg.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/m119a1-howitzer/images/4-m119a1-howitzer.jpg

Pratyush wrote:No, cause the measly numbers that India is thinking of buying will not be sufficient to do the job.

These 145 guns are for Siachen and for the mountain strike corps (will that ever be raised?) in that order. I can guarantee you, if the MSC is indeed raised...a follow on order is coming.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 May 2015 21:14

4:58 and 6:15 has footage of what mrsi can do - each pzh2000 can unleash 5 rounds to impact same point by lowering the barrel progressively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxvS7lEaZ3M

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 14 May 2015 21:43

I still shudder to see that loading process

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 14 May 2015 22:09

Singha wrote:4:58 and 6:15 has footage of what mrsi can do - each pzh2000 can unleash 5 rounds to impact same point by lowering the barrel progressively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxvS7lEaZ3M


The G6 is just as good if not better. Wonder if the Bhim project will ever get a restart.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2015 22:18

Naah! Nothing beats the King...the Archer Artillery System.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=archer+artillery+system

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 14 May 2015 22:38

Singha wrote:and even now none has tasked the OFB and other agencies to create a modern replacement for the 105mm gun.
that will be another $5b tab somewhere down the line. the claim is 105mm is useless and only 155 is kosher.



Most likely the 105mm will get phased out. Maybe given to Afghanistan etc.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 May 2015 23:24

Surya wrote:I still shudder to see that loading process


one careless move by the breech loader could chop his arm off?

the korean K9 seems to have a safer looking firing system and a reload vehicle that transfers rounds using a probe .
holy crap there is some scary msri demo here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVdoBWBmUYQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oaR2jPGddA
around 2:35 it is clearly seen even the charges are loaded by machinery...clearly safer than the "guillotine" pzh2000 system though they might have a sensor to prevent that gate closing so long as something is inside.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 May 2015 23:26

because of their automated loading systems the SP systems will have a much higher rate of sustained fire than even truck mounted types like Archer which has a small ready mag....a SP gun will have 60-70 shells and charges in-house, far more than ready mag of a towed gun or truck.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 15 May 2015 03:15

ramana wrote:

Most likely the 105mm will get phased out. Maybe given to Afghanistan etc.


Some 105MM guns will also be given to BSF.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 18 May 2015 17:53

Screw (together in) India

The defence ministry last week cleared the purchase of these 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers from the US Department of Defence (Pentagon) for a budgeted Rs 2,900 crore, which BAE sources say could eventually be about Rs 4,650 crore.

The US-based BAE is selecting an Indian partner to assemble imported kits into M777 guns. This would be done in an “Assembly, Integration and Testing (AIT) facility”, using tools and assembly jigs shipped to India from BAE’s now-shuttered assembly line in Hattiesburg, USA

Chief executive officers (CEOs) from three of these companies tell Business Standard that integrating the gun at an Indian AIT facility would be worth no more than 5 per cent of the contract amount, i.e. about Rs 230 crore.

BAE has signed agreements with a raft of Indian companies to discharge its offset liability in the M777 contract, worth about Rs 1,400 crore. Most of this offset work is believed to be unrelated to the M777.

In March/April 2014, then army chief, General Bikram Singh, pronounced the M777 too expensive in a defence ministry meeting. Defence Ministers AK Antony and Arun Jaitley told parliament that the M777 acquisition was stuck because of high cost. Now, without any reduction in cost, the defence ministry has cleared the contract.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 18 May 2015 18:17

The main Q,why after Gen .Bikky S's statement,the requirement was not thrown open to pvt. industry by the former regime? The current dispensation has bitten the bullet as we are woefully short of arty,ammo,etc. on both fronts and cannot risk another "1962" with China. T

The problem is that there is no grand strategy ,long term planning which is executed in time whatsoever afflicting every govt. that we've had since Independence barring two periods when Mrs. G and Rajiv G were in power. Nehru was responsible for our disaster of '62. It is now coming out how he was more obsessed with keeping Netaji out of India,both in spirit and flesh than bothering about the threat from China. Mrs. G. flawlessly worked out a combination of military,political ,economic and diplomatic policies to defeat Pak decisively in '71,that too when we were so poor and when Pak had the full support of both the US and China. Many analysts have woefully rued that fact that our defence and security policies are reactive,firefighting most of the time. The arty decision has languished from the days of Bofors! Repeated trials after trials were conducted without any decision being made. We also as in the case of the MMRCA have no "Plan B",or do not want to have a "Plan B",forcing knee-jerk imports to be made.So in the absence of Plan Bs,there are no cut-off deadlines where alternatives are examined and urgent time-bound decisions made.

I was reading a report about the future warships/subs to be made in India in the future.The Scorpene dealy was mentioned..The current DM has blamed the delay on tardiness in getting components from abroad from foreign manufacturers,but the French blame us!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 18 May 2015 18:26

Gyan wrote:Screw (together in) India

The defence ministry last week cleared the purchase of these 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers from the US Department of Defence (Pentagon) for a budgeted Rs 2,900 crore, which BAE sources say could eventually be about Rs 4,650 crore.

The US-based BAE is selecting an Indian partner to assemble imported kits into M777 guns. This would be done in an “Assembly, Integration and Testing (AIT) facility”, using tools and assembly jigs shipped to India from BAE’s now-shuttered assembly line in Hattiesburg, USA

Chief executive officers (CEOs) from three of these companies tell Business Standard that integrating the gun at an Indian AIT facility would be worth no more than 5 per cent of the contract amount, i.e. about Rs 230 crore.

BAE has signed agreements with a raft of Indian companies to discharge its offset liability in the M777 contract, worth about Rs 1,400 crore. Most of this offset work is believed to be unrelated to the M777.

In March/April 2014, then army chief, General Bikram Singh, pronounced the M777 too expensive in a defence ministry meeting. Defence Ministers AK Antony and Arun Jaitley told parliament that the M777 acquisition was stuck because of high cost. Now, without any reduction in cost, the defence ministry has cleared the contract.


If MOD has decided to opt of M777 why not just go the extra mile and lic buid that in Numbers with TOT ...whats the point of having multiple types of 155 mm Gun ?

Are we going to end up with US type , Israel upgraded Russian Type another Indian Type and then Bofors built in india ......why not just standardise on M777 ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 19 May 2015 03:46

So due to the Dumb-Ass policies of UPA , we are now going to acquire the same artillery system 4 years late and pay an extra Rs 1000 Crores for it.
Jai ho to the Paki loving Congress party.


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