Artillery: News & Discussion

srai
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 01 Jun 2016 02:21

Using NAMICA as an example, the IA's product development practice needs to improve. It seems they keep changing requirements once it undergoes a round of trials. This is not related to fixing issues found but a wholesale design changes. Each of these set of changes adds around 2+ years of delays given additional time it takes to R&D and put it through another round of winter/summer trials. Nothing more frustrating than that if you are a developer of that product.

Original:
Image

Second:
Image

Third (current):
Image

All these changes for an initial order intent of just 13 units!!! ... still waiting for production green light.

rohitvats
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 01 Jun 2016 05:11

In all this 'ownership' issue business, people forget that Dhanush came about because of push from the Director General Artillery. And not because someone in MOD or OFB woke up and realized that we've Bofors blue-prints ready with us.

As for need for IA to take ownership and insist on private player participation if OFB production quality does not meet standards, well, things are not as simple for the IA. OFB and other PSU are a monopoly in themselves with clout which IA cannot even match. Nothing would suit IA better than dealing with private players who can deliver. But MOD makes them beholden to OFB for obvious reasons.

No one can forget GCF workers threatening to go on strike if private player is given orders for manufacture. They relented only when informed that mounted gun system is different order than the towed gun! IA has had a wonderful experience with Pinaka and private players. And would love to replicate that. FICV and private player participation happened on IA's insistence.

It's the MOD which binds IA and Services to OFB.

Yagnasri
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 01 Jun 2016 14:09

The rubbish always will be more with the babus in Delhi, be it MOD or MoF or anything else. The level of mismanagement and laziness is of epic proportions. No wonder they all hate present governament which is making them work.

Karan M
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 01 Jun 2016 22:34

rohitvats wrote:In all this 'ownership' issue business, people forget that Dhanush came about because of push from the Director General Artillery. And not because someone in MOD or OFB woke up and realized that we've Bofors blue-prints ready with us.


Rohit, this was the 2nd such effort. First one ended because "imports were right around the corner".

As for need for IA to take ownership and insist on private player participation if OFB production quality does not meet standards, well, things are not as simple for the IA. OFB and other PSU are a monopoly in themselves with clout which IA cannot even match. Nothing would suit IA better than dealing with private players who can deliver. But MOD makes them beholden to OFB for obvious reasons.


I wonder how much of that clout is because of the trade unions.

No one can forget GCF workers threatening to go on strike if private player is given orders for manufacture. They relented only when informed that mounted gun system is different order than the towed gun! IA has had a wonderful experience with Pinaka and private players. And would love to replicate that. FICV and private player participation happened on IA's insistence.


Interesting thing is Pinaka orders were held up because of limited ammo production at OFB. Though that appears to have been fixed because more orders have been placed for Pinaka.

It's the MOD which binds IA and Services to OFB.


If OFB is reformed under Modi raj, that would be an achievement.

abhik
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 02 Jun 2016 23:31

Karan M wrote:there is a flip side too. what will you do, if there is no corresponding capability that is indian?

there is no indian equivalent of IL-76, or C-17 or Mi-17 or S-70.

Doesn't have to be a scorched earth policy,but there is a long list of imports like Rafale, Spike missile etc. could very well have been avoided.
...

now, the point i am making is the political leadership has to do more than just ask services to buy Indian. it has to

1. create the atmosphere and resource availability that allows indian products to thrive
2. ensure a fair play atmosphere where armed forces and weapons developers work together
3. ensure the products are available & if challenges are there, balance the issue (eg LUH and temporary import of some foreign unit; or ALTAS sonar while ATAS continues)
4. make sure there is healthy availability of both public and private solutions with GOI assisting for "indianization" such as making india specific software etc and not relying on quick fix imports
5. all 1-4 together as part of a group effort (IDS) to ensure there is synergy.

Above points are what defence ministry should normally be doing. Unfortunately there been been a lack of leadership (and competence?) here. Even with Parrikar IMO we are seeing incremental changes only. May be jingos need to be satisfied with this only.

tsarkar
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jun 2016 09:39

Karan M wrote:its interesting to see complaints of "rabid folks" and what not, when one side takes care to present only facts.. and its assumed of course that the other side can get away with such assertions, merely because those who respond are constantly civil, can be taken for granted & abused .. then posh complaints of viciousness and what not.

heh. if name dropping was important one could even mention "who and what" who lead these sort of programs informed what exactly but for the sake of forum democrum & the fact its gauche.. it wasn't done. lets be clear here, some folks like deejay & akshay get respect because they don't demand it. lets be clear what that entails. i understand their occasional ire and heck, i'd be glad to have a beer with such level headed folks anytime. wish more folks were like them.

Karan M,

While I normally ignore, I’ll make an exception in your case given your nonsense have gone too far, and Moderators have taken no action on you.

You made the following personal attack on me in the INS Arihant thread when we were discussing the powerplant

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:When you don't have facts, you start confusing. We supposedly designed the most complex parts of a submarine, viz, reactor and hull ourselves, but needed Russians to design some "myriad components" that is equally vague as "internals".
Look who is talking about facts? As I recall you once claimed Arjun's sight doesn't have HK capability, were busy pontificating about Marut & aerodesign & LCA internals and weight compares with Gripen - mine and Maitya's rejoinders to all your previous statements are all available.


When you couldn’t respond with facts, you started making personal attacks on my credentials.

You’ve three filthy traits of vindictiveness, viciousness & dishonesty whenever your posts are proven factually incorrect.

Now, I have made 1000 plus posts on BR. All factual. Yet you dig up 3 out of context posts of the 1000+ posts trying to damage my credentials. Your vindictiveness is proven by your personal attack and habit of collecting mud on people who prove you wrong. I am sure you spent a lot of time gathering those three posts out of 1000s I have made.

Even in these 3 posts, here are the facts

You in your emotional hyperbole incorrectly claimed indigenous design enhancements to Marut were available and cooked up a conspiracy of IAF being unfair to it. This is what the Pilots & Test Pilots had to say

https://marutfans.wordpress.com/2010/02 ... ie-chakko/
…HF-24-1R at HAL, Bangalore. This aircraft had a GTRE designed Orpheus Engine Partial Reheat System (1R), which was under development at that time…

https://marutfans.wordpress.com/2010/02 ... apils-pen/
performance was less than it would have been if the rear fuselage had not simply been enlarged by HAL to house the larger engines and their nozzles. The nice area rule of the original design had been vitiated badly.


With regards to the Tejas, you in your fantasy incorrectly claimed it was fit to be inducted to TD-1 standard in 2001 itself when factually it was certified fit to fly only after IOC-2 in December 2013 http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=102056
…In-flight re-light capability was demonstrated to ensure enhanced safety and reliability of the aircraft. This is a major achievement…Tejas has passed all the tests for “All Weather Clearance” of the aircraft. The Aircraft has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support.


Before December 2013, Tejas had to mandatorily fly with telemetry support. Why?

Because all system parameters had to be monitored by dedicated ground team for flight safety. It was only in December 2013 that Tejas flight systems and characteristics were fully understood, proven & certified.

The certification agency CEMILAC is a DRDO arm, not IAF. And the delay in certification was the time taken to develop, not any speculative IAF Conspiracy Theory.

You dishonestly deliberately overlook these facts and with verbose hubris claim it should have been inducted before its certified safe to fly.

Quoting the people building it in December 2013, http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/12/h ... hters.html
Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions….“As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels,” explains Sridharan.


Standards were not even finalized before December 2013.

You and your choir boys also claimed IAF weapons specifications delayed development. For the record, my post citing three weapons, R-73, FAB-500 and Derby, were specified as soon as they were selected and proven in Su-30 and Sea Harrier respectively.

Infact IAF saved the Tejas in 2005 by re-using the work done on LUSH program for Sea Harrier in Elta 2032 radar, datalink & Derby missiles when it was clear MMR was a dead end.

And with regards to the Arjun, I had got my information from someone who worked with the 15 PP (Pre Production) models, that did not have the HK feature then under development. And unlike the insecure you who tries to obfuscate in verbose emotional hyperbole, I correct myself openly wherever incorrect.

Your dishonesty is proven when despite your posts being proven incorrect, you pretend as if you were right. Most people are lazy to go back and check, but for the record, all posts are there.

When cornered, you claim shelter under the guise of civility, when you initiate personal attacks.

You’re also vicious in your personal attacks on Prodyut Das or A M Matheswaran, when all they did was cite their point of views. You could just refute their PoV and rest at that. Instead you indulge in character assassination.

tsarkar wrote:ignore the irrational ones

And my reasons for ignoring your hyperbole and irrationality, Karan M, is not Gandhian non violence. Its Tughluma.

You see, life is much larger than internet forums. You and your choir boys may drown reason on your coral island.

But in real life, when you meet people who really know things, when you go with your incorrect pet theory of “Tejas fit for induction in 2001” or “Shakti & Takshak torpedoes just around the corner”, then that day you’ll dig a bigger hole for yourself and make a bigger fool of yourself.

I’ll diagnose you a little more. You suffer from Indigenous Brochuritis.

That came out when you claimed “Shakti & Takshak torpedoes just around the corner”

I have defined Indigenous Brochuritis for inclusion in the BRF Dictionary

Indigenous Brochuritis –

The tendency of Karan M and his choir boys on reading brochures/posters or reading news reports or reading interviews of military systems from DRDO/PSUs - either in conceptualised state or under development or in prototype stage or under development trials or user trials or operational trials - to fantasise that the system is perfect and ready for induction in 100s or 1000s, deliberately ignoring the actual state of the project, being completely unable to discern actually achieved specifications from paper design specifications, suppressing facts and deriding others contrary to their fantasies, and finally showing cognitive dissonance if the project fails by conjuring false conspiracy theories of Natashas, money, foreign hand, lack of patriotism, et al.


And all your knowledge and information is just that – news reports, DRDO publications, Aero India Displays. Beyond that you post in the realm of speculation & fantasy.

You have zero knowledge of operational matters or organizational ethos, otherwise you wouldn’t have berated Admiral Ronnie Pereira in your post in the Arihant thread. He was the best chief IN had, like Manekshaw or Sundarji. But with your knowledge limited to brochures, you won’t know that.

And as for me, I have a life much larger than your verbose brochuritis infected life.

And as a very small sample example, here is the photo I took & posted in BR of the Revati when it was being tested on INS Dunagiri
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/294 ... 3D+CAR.JPG

Even L&T uses my photo, without my permission http://www.larsentoubro.com/heavy-engin ... rne-radar/

My association with Srikumar Banerjee remains no matter what you post. And my children get to tour nuclear submarines.

No one has ever seen anything original from you, only verbose speculation and brochure/published reports/new reports information come from you.

When you run out of facts, your posts become more & more verbose gibberish


I’m sure you’ll whimper and complain when given a taste of your own medicine, but you should’ve thought about it before making a personal attack on me in the Arihant thread.

Moderators – since you ignored Karan’s repeated personal attacks on me in the Arihant thread or earlier in this thread, I would request you to let this response to his repeated personal attacks stay.
Last edited by Indranil on 07 Jun 2016 09:27, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Member warned for personal attacks and thread derailment.

nirav
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nirav » 04 Jun 2016 19:32

Request ALL to NOT let blue on blue go on any further.

Indranil
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 06 Jun 2016 21:56

^^^ +1.

Karan M
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 07 Jun 2016 04:17

tsarkar wrote:While I normally ignore, I’ll make an exception in your case given your nonsense have gone too far, and Moderators have taken no action on you. You made the following personal attack on me in the INS Arihant thread when we were discussing the powerplant

"tsarkar"When you don't have facts, you start confusing. We supposedly designed the most complex parts of a submarine, viz, reactor and hull ourselves, but needed Russians to design some "myriad components" that is equally vague as "internals". Look who is talking about facts? As I recall you once claimed Arjun's sight doesn't have HK capability, were busy pontificating about Marut & aerodesign & LCA internals and weight compares with Gripen - mine and Maitya's rejoinders to all your previous statements are all available.

When you couldn’t respond with facts, you started making personal attacks on my credentials.


What personal attack?

You made assertions which were not backed by facts in the past which makes your claims of others not being reliant on facts and yelling about it, ironic, and I pointed them out.

Like I said. You make all sorts of claims, make personal attacks yourself (see below about "filthy traits" and similar schoolboy rubbish), then scream in bold font when somebody stands up to your claims and says, enough.

You’ve three filthy traits of vindictiveness, viciousness & dishonesty whenever your posts are proven factually incorrect.


Looks like you are projecting, and projecting hard.

Now, I have made 1000 plus posts on BR. All factual. Yet you dig up 3 out of context posts of the 1000+ posts


Merely a sample of how inscrutable your claims are, melawd. It just goes to show while you constantly brag about being so correct and everyone else on BR is wrong, you make bloopers too.

Your response to being pointed out as human as versus inscrutable? Screaming.

trying to damage my credentials. Your vindictiveness is proven by your personal attack and habit of collecting mud on people who prove you wrong. I am sure you spent a lot of time gathering those three posts out of 1000s I have made.


I spent a few minutes, because those were some of the big bloopers you made.

Even in these 3 posts, here are the facts

You in your emotional hyperbole incorrectly claimed indigenous design enhancements to Marut were available and cooked up a conspiracy of IAF being unfair to it. This is what the Pilots & Test Pilots had to say

https://marutfans.wordpress.com/2010/02 ... ie-chakko/


Say what? I merely stated indigenous enhancements to Marut should have been pursued. So say many folks. Are you going to scream at them as well? I'll say the same for the LCA today as well.

…HF-24-1R at HAL, Bangalore. This aircraft had a GTRE designed Orpheus Engine Partial Reheat System (1R), which was under development at that time…ss.com/2010/02/21/from-groupie-kapils-pen/
performance was less than it would have been if the rear fuselage had not simply been enlarged by HAL to house the larger engines and their nozzles. The nice area rule of the original design had been vitiated badly.


Size 10,0000 font would be better here. Since then perhaps we all would understand what you are going on about!

BTW, above is perfect example of quoting someone to "quote from authority" yet failing to make a point about actual information.

See Vivek Ahujas posts about actual information & data as versus excerpting.

With regards to the Tejas, you in your fantasy incorrectly claimed it was fit to be inducted to TD-1 standard in 2001 itself when factually it was certified fit to fly only after IOC-2 in December 2013 http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=102056
…In-flight re-light capability was demonstrated to ensure enhanced safety and reliability of the aircraft. This is a major achievement…Tejas has passed all the tests for “All Weather Clearance” of the aircraft. The Aircraft has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support.


Again, ROTFL only.... I made no such claim about Tejas being fit to be inducted as is. I merely pointed out at various times that current Tejas Mk1 once FOC'ed is better than obsolescent aircraft like MiG-21 and MiG-27 as they stand.

Obviously, if Tejas Mk1 had to be inducted at the time, it would have fitments modified. Or are you going to scream at size 4000000 font about that too?

efore December 2013, Tejas had to mandatorily fly with telemetry support. Why?


Perhaps because it was under something known as a test program?

ecause all system parameters had to be monitored by dedicated ground team for flight safety. It was only in December 2013 that Tejas flight systems and characteristics were fully understood, proven & certified.


I see. Thanks for informing us. Here we were unable to discern all this.

The certification agency CEMILAC is a DRDO arm, not IAF. And the delay in certification was the time taken to develop, not any speculative IAF Conspiracy Theory.


LOL, tilting at windmills again. Who said CEMILAC was IAF now?

You dishonestly deliberately overlook these facts and with verbose hubris claim it should have been inducted before its certified safe to fly.


Looking at the above, you claiming dishonesty and verbosity is hilarious. I can't even take anything you say seriously given falooda you are making of the topic.

Quoting the people building it in December 2013, http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/12/h ... hters.html
Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions….“As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels,” explains Sridharan.
Standards were not even finalized before December 2013.


Yeah so? Obviously when the aircraft is still in test to IAF specs for Mk1, it has not been finalized.

Quoting something we all know and have debated on BRF again and again.

You and your choir boys also claimed IAF weapons specifications delayed development. For the record, my post citing three weapons, R-73, FAB-500 and Derby, were specified as soon as they were selected and proven in Su-30 and Sea Harrier respectively.


Wow, didn't know I had a choir. Perchance you were singing and I missed it? Mellilfuous voice and all?

I didn't see any super special post of yours on anything that is not on the internetz already. Perhaps it must have been lost amongst all the screaming.

Infact IAF saved the Tejas in 2005 by re-using the work done on LUSH program for Sea Harrier in Elta 2032 radar, datalink & Derby missiles when it was clear MMR was a dead end.


LOL, and here it is I who have been quoting the Derby-EL/M-2032-LUSH connection & you are stating the obvious back at me. Welcome to the choir.

PS: Before that IAF evaluated Kopyo as well & AN/APG-67 as well. Good luck on searching that too.

And with regards to the Arjun, I had got my information from someone who worked with the 15 PP (Pre Production) models, that did not have the HK feature then under development. And unlike the insecure you who tries to obfuscate in verbose emotional hyperbole, I correct myself openly wherever incorrect.


So all that verbosity above, to state A) you were wrong B) you are now admitting it?

Your dishonesty is proven when despite your posts being proven incorrect, you pretend as if you were right. Most people are lazy to go back and check, but for the record, all posts are there.


ROTFL! Projecting away.

Personal attacks galore and then posturing.

Listen dude. Its not about being right all the time or even wrong. Its about constantly screaming at others who can see your claims are claims. Not always cent per cent reality.

You are welcome to have me on your ignore list, if you wish, but really, I am not intimidated by your antics.


When cornered, you claim shelter under the guise of civility, when you initiate personal attacks.


Whenever somebody disagrees with you, you start screaming. That my dear sir, is a personal attack. Not when somebody says.. "err no..."

PS" Just check the above language "cornered" etc.

You’re also vicious in your personal attacks on Prodyut Das or A M Matheswaran, when all they did was cite their point of views. You could just refute their PoV and rest at that. Instead you indulge in character assassination.


Oh please.

There are ex services folks on this board who have been far harsher than I have been on the gents in question.

Do I need to pull their quotes out? Oh wait, then you will say "you went searching".

Your above debating tactics are "I can't find something bad to say about you, but you kicked a puppy you bad bad man".

Next, dont scream that I called the above folks a puppy.

And my reasons for ignoring your hyperbole and irrationality, Karan M, is not Gandhian non violence. Its Tughluma.


For all the ignoring you seem to be screaming a lot. And the amount of hyperbole and over the top irrationality in the post speaks for itself.

You see, life is much larger than internet forums. You and your choir boys may drown reason on your coral island.


we all can't share your pacific island retreat which is so fashionable and chi-chi.

But in real life, when you meet people who really know things, when you go with your incorrect pet theory of “Tejas fit for induction in 2001” or “Shakti & Takshak torpedoes just around the corner”, then that day you’ll dig a bigger hole for yourself and make a bigger fool of yourself.


More amazing stuff from your side, much like Arjun H&K sight & telling ADA how to design aircraft & making claims on Gripen weight and what not.

Facts - if anybody is making a fool out of himself, it would be those who come up with bizarre claims of Tejas fit for induction in 2001 (I see only one person who said it in the discussion above) and all sorts of stuff about torpedos when CAGs information on them is well known.

Still don't get why you have to personally attack someone on a coral island internet forum.

I’ll diagnose you a little more. You suffer from Indigenous Brochuritis.


I'll diagnose you too. You suffer from an inability to stick to the facts and then resort to all sorts of bizarre claims to win an internet argument.

That came out when you claimed “Shakti & Takshak torpedoes just around the corner”


Nope didn't do that. All I have ever done is
a) Post news reports stating progress
B ) Post CAG reports and other Annual Report details stating the progress as from official agencies
c) Tie the reports together
Made sure none of the above violated any IN/GOI need in any manner


The tendency of Karan M and his choir boys on reading brochures/posters or reading news reports or reading interviews of military systems from DRDO/PSUs - either in conceptualised state or under development or in prototype stage or under development trials or user trials or operational trials - to fantasise that the system is perfect and ready for induction in 100s or 1000s, deliberately ignoring the actual state of the project, being completely unable to discern actually achieved specifications from paper design specifications, suppressing facts and deriding others contrary to their fantasies, and finally showing cognitive dissonance if the project fails by conjuring false conspiracy theories of Natashas, money, foreign hand, lack of patriotism, et al.

The above can be corrected to

The tendency of tsarkar and himself on ignoring all relevant details and cursing others apart from himself for pointing out details from of military systems from DRDO/PSUs - either in conceptualised state or under development or in prototype stage or under development trials or user trials or operational trials - to rebut his fantasies that the system being from these agencies can be perfect and ready for induction in 100s or 1000s, deliberately ignoring the actual state of the project, being completely unable to discern actually achieved specifications from paper design specifications, suppressing facts and deriding others contrary to their fantasies, and finally showing cognitive dissonance if the project succeeds by accusing all others who contradicted him of conjuring false conspiracy theories of Natashas, money, foreign hand, lack of patriotism, et al.

I have defined Indigenous Brochuritis for inclusion in the BRF Dictionary


Just corrected the above.

And all your knowledge and information is just that – news reports, DRDO publications, Aero India Displays. Beyond that you post in the realm of speculation & fantasy.


Yes indeed. Which is why I immediately knew, despite the BEL website you were throwing in everyone's face, that the Arjun GMS was not the one there. While of course, your inside information on PPS tanks was so correct.

While of course, quoting Ajai Shukla and weblinks yourself shows you only rely on inside information.

Seriously, at this point I can't but go "wiut" at the irony.

You have zero knowledge of operational matters[/b] or organizational ethos, otherwise you wouldn’t have berated Admiral Ronnie Pereira in your post in the Arihant thread. He was the best chief IN had, like Manekshaw or Sundarji. But with your knowledge limited to brochures, you won’t know that.


I am so awed by the operational knowledge you have shared in the post above. BTW, naval veterans have a lot of favorites. I won;t even bother reading about "berating" yada yada, because given how you have constantly and deliberately misrepresented everything I've said, its proabably yet another one..

And as for me, I have a life much larger than your verbose brochuritis infected life.


Oh thanks for informing all of us, in such a humble manner.

And as a very small sample example, here is the photo I took & posted in BR of the Revati when it was being tested on INS Dunagiri
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/294 ... 3D+CAR.JPG


Have you seen the BR galleries? Many interesting pics there too.

Even L&T uses my photo, without my permission http://www.larsentoubro.com/heavy-engin ... rne-radar/


At this point I can't but shake my head... for crying out loud...do you even realize the amount of stuff that has been picked up from BR discussions by various folks and reposted elsewhere.. and nobody else claims its such a big issue.

My association with Srikumar Banerjee remains no matter what you post. And my children get to tour nuclear submarines.


Good for them. Never said anything about SukumarB either.

No one has ever seen anything original from you, only verbose speculation and brochure/published reports/new reports information come from you.


I think that's your attitude with your umpteen attacks on everyone else from being brochure bashers, being this, being that..

When you run out of facts, your posts become more & more verbose gibberish


Right. You are the epitome of brevity and civility.

I’m sure you’ll whimper and complain when given a taste of your own medicine, but you should’ve thought about it before making a personal attack on me in the Arihant thread.


I am neither whimpering and complaining. I am laughing at your behavior outright.

Moderators – since you ignored Karan’s repeated personal attacks on me in the Arihant thread or earlier in this thread, I would request you to let this response to his repeated personal attacks stay.
[/quote]

Ah yes, the famous - Moderators, my ego is sancrosanct. How dare you have let this bleddy nobody talk back to me.

Bleddy low life.

Since moderators didn't show this bleddy fellow. Now I will scream.

PS: All this, and not ounce of actual information or detail in your post. Just screaming. And you wonder why I don't take you seriously?

See the amount of pomposity you display. It speaks severely of a need to rule over others. You demand respect whereas, others elicit it.
Last edited by Indranil on 07 Jun 2016 09:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Member warned for personal attacks and thread derailment.

sankum
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sankum » 07 Jun 2016 05:08

I have no hope, no desires, still there is so much calmness, happiness and peace.

I know I am so weak and insignificant, still there is so much inner strength.

Guys this is spirituality or acceptance of fact that one liner truth will get a page full page of response not of kind type, but you got to accept that experts have their king sized ego but the matter of fact is you succeed when you get your point across and not by fighting. It is so childish. Respect people for what they know and not respond to unkind words. :rotfl:

manjgu
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 07 Jun 2016 05:20

Karan M ..baba pipe down. Tsarkar is one of our valued contributor who has real world experience unlike many arm chair warriors.

shyamoo
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shyamoo » 07 Jun 2016 06:15

Ok. Both of you have had your say.

<rant off/>

From both sides, please.

srai
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 07 Jun 2016 07:09

In a case like this where arguments spiral beyond regular discussion, Mods need to step in and <snip> posts to just the relevant details. It would prevent such escalation to personal level between two experienced/knowledgable posters from going at each other on what seems like minor disagreements. I have witnessed this quite a few times before on BRF and it doesn't end well; one or both end up leaving BRF being burnt out.

Avarachan
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Avarachan » 07 Jun 2016 08:36

Guys, be above insults. Responding to each and every allegation makes you look petty. Don't worry about your personal honor: BRF members are intelligent. If someone is being a jerk, most people will realize that even without someone else explicitly pointing that out.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby narmad » 07 Jun 2016 08:46

Avarachan wrote:Guys, be above insults. Responding to each and every allegation makes you look petty. Don't worry about your personal honor: BRF members are intelligent. If someone is being a jerk, most people will realize that even without someone else explicitly pointing that out.


Not that i am intelligent, but i skim over posts of some members and read twice the posts of most [ like i said i am not intelligent] .
Please do not take any thing personally folks, we desperately need personalities line KARANM and TSARKAR to continue to contribute like they have been before.
Please not this BLUE on BLUE, losing ARUN_S was a big shock .

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 07 Jun 2016 08:51

sure..we need both....theoretical and real world are both needed !

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 07 Jun 2016 09:13

Karan and Tsarkar, please take your leave from this thread for 3 days. Cool off and come back.

Others, stop commenting.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Jun 2016 19:54

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/auto/story ... 29650.html

ashok leyland wins 800cr super stallion truck order (450 units of 6x6) for artillery gun towers

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 08 Jun 2016 20:54

Singha wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/auto/story/ashok-leyland-bags-defence-contracts-worth-rs-800-crore/1/629650.html

ashok leyland wins 800cr super stallion truck order (450 units of 6x6) for artillery gun towers


Good. The old Russian FAT that came with M-46 will be replaced with these.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby BharadwajV » 08 Jun 2016 23:14

Did we not order over a thousand Tata 6by6's?
They had the Crane as standard, IIRC.
Why get the Super Stallion?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 08 Jun 2016 23:51

BharadwajV wrote:Did we not order over a thousand Tata 6by6's?
They had the Crane as standard, IIRC.
Why get the Super Stallion?


The FATs have a cabin for the gun crew. Scania, AL and Tata models share this.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Jun 2016 23:59

my rule of thumb is that when a thread gets into rant and counter-rant, just keep skipping until the next readable article
no one really cares about mein-mein-tu-tu...
also if someone feels ranted against, best to take the moral high ground and walk away
there are more important things in life than BRF izzat


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 15 Jun 2016 20:52

Was this video posted here before? If yes, then apologies but I am sure you won't mind watching again. Short and sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrqSfT_k5hY&spfreload=1

[youtube]MrqSfT_k5hY&spfreload=1[/youtube]

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby prahaar » 15 Jun 2016 21:01

The above clip seems to be an extract from this awesome video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t5M10gBVCc

My daughter too loves this video.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 15 Jun 2016 21:42

^^^ Yes.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dnivas » 16 Jun 2016 05:14

I did feel bad for the soldiers who had to use their hands to deafen the sound. Again it is not a case of scooter helmet questioning mentality; but noise reducing headsets should not be that expensive, For a few rounds and the whole team can be outfitted?Yes/No?

btw Great video. Total TFTA

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2016 06:47

for some reason even the amrikans do not seem to use such headsets. maybe it makes it hard to hear commands and warnings being shouted out

here a well drilled M777 crew pumps out rounds fast but you can clearly see holding ears



for a the 105mm (?) does not seem like much of an issue


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kashi » 16 Jun 2016 07:08

^^ That reminds me, I have been unable to find any reports on when can we expect to see the first M777s to be inducted in the Indian Army. The contract was approved in December last year.

Not sure if this was posted before, but a nice interview with Baba N Kalyani, who's pitching Four Artillery Gun Platforms for the armed forces

Days of getting a defence contract because you know somebody are gone: Baba Kalyani, Bharat Forge

By Anupama Airy

The most worrying operational void of field artillery guns to support the Indian Army in battle is finally being addressed. Domestic companies like Kalyani Group companies are all geared up to fill this gap and showcase a plethora of high-precision, cost competitive and most importantly indigenously developed artillery guns at the forthcoming event—the Def-Expo 2016 to be held in Goa from March 28th to 30th.

The Kalyani Group Is All Set To Showcase Four Artillery Gun Platforms at the DefExpo India 2016 : Bharat 52 – 155mm/52 Cal Towed Gun; Bharat 45 – 155mm/45 Cal Towed Gun; Garuda 105 – 105mm/37 Cal Truck Mounted Light Weight Gun and Bharat Ultra Light Howitzer – 155mm/39 Cal Ultra Light Gun made of Ti & Al. based alloys.

A week before the DefExpo India 2016, the ever passionate, Baba N Kalyani, Chairman, Kalyani Group Companies, in an exclusive and free-wheeling interview to DefenceAviationPost.com, spoke about his group’s strategy, plans and offerings for India’s defence sector. What is more significant is that Kalyani said he will showcase a host of indigenously developed light weight artillery guns and howitzers that offer price advantage of as much as 40-50% over similar offerings by global firms.

Excerpts:

Q: How and when did the idea to make Guns, an altogether different segment from your core business, come to your mind?

A: The idea to make indigenous guns stuck me in late 2011. Within months and by February 2012, I discussed the idea with a group of just three young and dynamic engineers (who I decided to pull out of their traditional roles) to make high-tech indigenous guns. Interestingly, none of these three engineers had ever seen a gun in their life before and I sat down with them and drew some sketches of guns.

And four years down the line, we currently have a group of 45 dedicated and highly skilled engineers who are involved in making high precision indigenous artillery guns. In 2015, during the “Make in India” week in Mumbai, Kalyani Group proudly displayed Bharat-52, a long range artillery gun that was developed indigenously by us.

In between 2011 and this four and a half year period, a lot research and networking happened with various institutions, universities, organisations and people in order to gain knowledge and technical expertise in gun technology across a range of applications from small arms through to large calibre artillery systems.

We took help of a leading University in UK which has a School Of Artillery that teaches how to design Artillery guns and combines world recognised expertise in gun technology across a range of applications from small arms through to large calibre artillery systems.

Like that we grew and understood what was required, the design bit, what software to use and we started putting building blocks together. The engineering expertise of our group became our advantage…..as we have a whole set of experts in metallurgy, materials, stress & fatigue analysis, designing products, computer based simulation, etc. We also have considerable expertise in Hydraulics, Automation & Controls and Robotics. And this is exactly what an Artillery Gun is really all about—its Metal, Hydraulics, Automated Systems and some Electronics, all integrated together…we use these building blocks and designed a gun. Initially it was very difficult. I remember 2012, we were really frustrated as we used to do a lot of experiments, which at times didn’t work and produce the right results.

Just being at it, we overcame all these hurdles and by 2014, we had the first gun ready within 24months. We had not fired the gun…the gun was ready, we had moved it, did all the mobility trials but we had not fired it. Firing took place quite late, this year in the last two months…after which we knew our technology was right and on spot. So our first gun that made by us, right from the steel to the forging, to machining, to heat treatment to finish machining. All this needs lot of precision and metallurgy and I can proudly say that on these two fronts, we are among the world’s best.

Q: During the recent ‘Make in India’ week in Mumbai, you displayed your long range artillery gun, Bharat-52. So what are you showcasing at the DefExpo 2016?

A: We are showcasing Four Gun platforms at the DefExpo 2016 in Goa.

This includes the first gun Bharat-52 that we have built and had also showcased at the Make in India week in Mumbai.

Then we have built a 45 calibre gun that we will be showcasing (and the reason for this is that the Army is already buying Dhanush which is also a 45 calibre). We call it the Bharat-45.

Then we have designed, developed and manufactured a 105mm/37 calibre light weight gun, GARUDA-105 which comes with a Hybrid Recoil System and weighs less than a ton. This gun is designed to be mounted on a pick-up truck and transported by a Helicopter.

Fourth, which is our latest baby, is the Bharat Ultra-Light Howitzer we are exhibiting thefirst prototype system that has been developed leveraging our experience in manufacturing Aerospace components comprising light weight exotic materials like Titanium and Aluminium based alloys. We will have a system ready for testing before the end of this year.

We have thus developed four platforms in less than three and a half years.

Q: What about the cost advantage that this indigenisation of products and equipments will bring for the country’s defence sector?

A: India offers a tremendous cost advantage. I have said it publically that given the opportunity, we can manufacture and supply the Ultra-Light Howitzers (ULHs) at significantly lower than international prices.. . I am confident that this cost effectiveness and technology will help India emerge as a large manufacturer of Defence Equipments. We may not be able to make fighter planes or sophisticated electronics, but when it comes to Small Arms and Artillery, we should soon be the best in the world.

(Mr Kalyani will be happy to know when this price advantage was shared during an Exclusive Interview with the RM, Mr Parrikar assured that he will speak to KALYANI GROUP to understand the product and technology and assured that all indigenous manufacturers who offer such price advantage and have competitive products to offer will be spoken to by him.)

Q: What about your production capabilities?

A: We have a dedicated production line for Artillery Systems today and we can quickly equip ourselves to build almost 100 guns a year, if the government wants. And 100% of the gun is indigenous and is being built in our plant. The only thing that we don’t make is the fire control systems, which is the electronics (the charge, the explosive, the propellers…we don’t do that). Once the entry of private sector is allowed in these currently barred sectors, we will happily set up plants to do that too.

Q: What are your company’s plans on the exports front and the road ahead?

A: If you look at the next 15 years, we should see our defence expenditure (spread over Army, Navy and Airforce) going to anywhere around $25 billion a year from the present around $8 billion a year.

So if India can excel in terms of product, in terms of quality, the performance and give the required cost advantage, there is no stopping for us. India can excel in sectors where it has a manufacturing advantage (guns, artillery, ammunition or anything metal oriented components), we will always have an advantage. Take the instance of auto components where we have an inherent advantage of 20-30% on cost side. Once we gain that advantage, there will also be a tremendous opportunity for exports.

Talking of my company’s aim, I can say that in 10 years, we will be among the top three artillery manufacturers on this planet. We are creating facilities that are better than the best in the world. Not just this, we are creating the knowledge that is required for this. The only missing link is that we don’t have any facilities to test our products as that is all with our government. It takes more than a year at times to test a product. And I hope that Hon’ble Raksha Mantri, Shri Parrikar, would have solved this in the new DPP.

Q: While you are ready with these next-gen guns, the industry doesn’t have any control on the ammunition side. Does this affect your plans and sales?

A : We have been making empty ammunition for years and we have a whole line in our plant for this. But private sector is not allowed to fill explosives nor is the government beginning to open it up to the private sector. I have said this before that during the Kargil war, Army was running out of shells for the Bofors guns. So the Ministry of Defence came to me and said, start manufacturing from tomorrow. So I made special arrangements and made 100,000 shells and gave it to the government.

Q: With the fine print on the new DPP Policy around the corner, what are those few things that you are looking at in the policy for the defence industry?

A: I want the policy to have preference for indigenously developed products (which the initial reports suggest the policy has a special focus on), preference for high level of indigenous content. Because when I can make a product with 100% indigenous content, I don’t want to compete with a guy who is making products with say a 40% indigenous content just like in some cars, where they are putting the battery, tyres and lights in India while the rest of it comes from Europe or elsewhere. Because if this is how we decide that a product is indigenous, then you are not securing the technology – the ‘Know-How’ and ‘Know-Why” of things; India will remain behind!

Secondly, I want the decision making process to be far shorter than the present processes and procedures.

Third, I expect more transparency in the system and the most important to all is allowing private sector to have the ability to test their new innovative ideas. Because we don’t have firing ranges, we don’t have ammunitions—that is only with the government. So we need access to these if India wants innovation in research and development (R&D) and want private sector to make new products. But if we don’t get a chance to test our product, how will we innovate. Even when we built the 105 light weight gun, it kept lying with us for one year and we could’nt test it as we did not get permissions to test. We then had to send a second system to USA which was integrated with Ordnance from USA, mounted on a local pick-up truck and then fired & tested. The test results are extremely encouraging.

(We at DefenceAviationPost.com are happy to inform Mr Kalyani (and even before the fine print of the DPP is made public by the MoD), that in an Exclusive interview of the Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar with DefenceAviationPost.com, two days after we interviewed Mr Kalyani, the minister made it clear that the new DPP policy has addressed this constraint and the industry will be able to test its products and equipments within India by accessing these facilities through a procedure that will be spelt out in the policy).

The new DPP will be extremely valuable if it brings in these changes

Q: What is the requirement of Guns by the Army and also elaborate on the preference that you are seeking for indigenous products?

A: As per the information available in various reports and on official websites, our assessment is that the Army requires some 4000 guns in the next 15 years or so. Now if I have developed a product, test it and if it is as good as what you have or better, then buy it if I am competitive. Don’t buy it if I am not good or if I am not competitive but, all I am asking is that give me the first chance. This is what I mean when I talk of preference for Indian Designed Developed and Manufactured Product.

Q: How do you react to the sudden inflow of investment proposals in Defence from the private sector?

A: I think we are going the right way. It’s commendable on part of the government to have passed on the message that this sector is open for business. The rush that you mentioned from the private sector only shows that the government has been very successful in passing this message both in India and outside the country and that is why you see large number of MoUs happening and a large number of industrial licenses being given to the industry.

I think DIPP and MoD have been very good in clearing the procedural bottlenecks, especially when it comes to length of license validation going upto 15 years. Earlier, it was just one year and every year you had to go for renewal which itself used to take one year. And one was not sure if the renewal will come or not. But now I don’t have to worry about that and my work would continue undeterred.

The government is very proactive, the Defence Minister, Mr Manohar Parrikar has been quite realistic and overall I am quite happy with the steps that the government is taking in the sector. I am very confident that the new DPP, which the entire industry is waiting to see, will only go to prove that the government is seriously pushing the Make in India initiative that will push manufacturing activity in the country and contribute to the overall growth of India’s economy.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 16 Jun 2016 07:16

That reminds me, I have been unable to find any reports on when can we expect to see the first M777s to be inducted in the Indian Army. The contract was approved in December last year.


The LOA was sent in Feb. of 2016 and was valid for 180 days. Once that is agreed upon and signed by both parties :

The vendor, BAE Systems, will supply the first batch of 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers within six months of signing the contract. The remaining guns would progressively be built in India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Jun 2016 13:59

there are polystyrene type earplugs that are in widespread use on rifle ranges and other noisy environments. these reduce the shock on the ear drums but don't eliminate the sound all together. they are much easier than headsets, but have a tendency to get lost amidst a lot of activity (esp if taking off and putting on). for the bigger guns i expect soldiers to instinctively protect their ear drums

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rahulm » 20 Jun 2016 14:46

I feel Kalyani Group with BF are the best private sector metallurgists in India if not the best in India overall. I had the good fortune to be involved with a part of the Kalyani Group. A competent professional bunch.

I was unaware of the emergency 10,000 shell product run. It's ironic that private sector has traditionally received the short end (OFB's are preferred) but when its crunch time, the GOI has turned to the private sector and it has delivered, in this instance. There are debates and use cases on why the private sector will not be able to deliver cutting edge defence stuff. Many of these use cases are probably right. In this case, its the other way around. The private sector is able and willing to come to the defence party but is being held back by present "polices and procedures" Hopefully. MP's ongoing systemic re-structure will make it easy for private players to innovate and integrate with and deliver for the military. Even export.

I say, throw Baba K the Kaveri metallurgical gauntlet. Give them some funding and a guaranteed upside should they come through. Offer the same terms to MIDHANI. What goes of GOI's father? Down side is limited to the funding but the upside is huge if any one of these come through. Impose a condition that any breakthrough's have to be Indian IP free from pesky phoren restrictions.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 20 Jun 2016 16:38

Akshay Kapoor pointed out that MOD babus were afraid of being seen as biased towards Bharat Forge so went out of their way to stepdance around such projects. With Parrikar at the helm, hopefully such stuff will stop.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Lisa » 20 Jun 2016 17:20

dnivas wrote:I did feel bad for the soldiers who had to use their hands to deafen the sound. Again it is not a case of scooter helmet questioning mentality; but noise reducing headsets should not be that expensive, For a few rounds and the whole team can be outfitted?Yes/No?

btw Great video. Total TFTA


10 cents a pair,

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ear+p ... BygC&dpr=1

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Jun 2016 19:03

Karan M wrote:Akshay Kapoor pointed out that MOD babus were afraid of being seen as biased towards Bharat Forge so went out of their way to stepdance around such projects. With Parrikar at the helm, hopefully such stuff will stop.


Hi Karan, it wasn't fear of bias. Instead they were exerting control on the armed forces and ofcourse sloth. DG Arty had instructed Comdt (Commandant) Arty School Deolali to allow tests of Bharat 52. Preparations were being made but some Babu came to know and reprimanded the army. It lead to a big stand off but babu prevailed. They were angry that fauj had the temerity to think for themselves and try to move out of their stranglehold or vice like grip in the words of a army commander. Also babus get a lot of goodies from OFB in terms of posts , vehicles , holiday homes etc. So patronage is a big thing.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 20 Jun 2016 19:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Jun 2016 19:13

Please read Parrikars recent interview. I quote from memory - 'Mod people have no knowledge of defence and every Tom Dick and Harry Asks some irrelevant question. By the time the question is answered to his satisfaction the person is transferred' Parrikar is very frustrated with the MOD babudom but can do little. The bureaucracy is more powerful than Modis and Parrikars.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 20 Jun 2016 20:19

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:Akshay Kapoor pointed out that MOD babus were afraid of being seen as biased towards Bharat Forge so went out of their way to stepdance around such projects. With Parrikar at the helm, hopefully such stuff will stop.


Hi Karan, it wasn't fear of bias. Instead they were exerting control on the armed forces and ofcourse sloth. DG Arty had instructed Comdt (Commandant) Arty School Deolali to allow tests of Bharat 52. Preparations were being made but some Babu came to know and reprimanded the army. It lead to a big stand off but babu prevailed. They were angry that fauj had the temerity to think for themselves and try to move out of their stranglehold or vice like grip in the words of a army commander. Also babus get a lot of goodies from OFB in terms of posts , vehicles , holiday homes etc. So patronage is a big thing.


This is beyond stupid and completely intolerable.
Basically use IA as a fall guy for their antics!!
I hope Parrikar breaks this grip and involves pvt sector fully!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 20 Jun 2016 20:19

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Please read Parrikars recent interview. I quote from memory - 'Mod people have no knowledge of defence and every Tom Dick and Harry Asks some irrelevant question. By the time the question is answered to his satisfaction the person is transferred' Parrikar is very frustrated with the MOD babudom but can do little. The bureaucracy is more powerful than Modis and Parrikars.


Can you link this please? Thanks

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Jun 2016 20:56

I don't know how to link. It's a TOI article 'Defence Deals do not happen overnight'. Or just google Parikkar Tom Dick and Harry. And please link it for the others Karan. I am tech challenged :-)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 20 Jun 2016 21:05

Thanks! Both were enough to find the article.

This is a scathing remark on practice of file notations and babu-giri!!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 810630.cms



Bureaucratic procedures delay defence deals, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said
Parrikar said these deals are not like buying phones from a shop
Sometimes, those who do not understand about the products have to deal with the procurement, he said

HYDERABAD: Defence deals, unlike purchase of televisions or mobile phones, are not made overnight and take "a lot of time" owing to bureaucratic procedures, defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday.

Speaking at a function here, Parrikar noted that sometimes, in the bureaucracy, those who do not understand anything about the product, deal with their procurement.

"Things do take time in defence (deals). Even if I make an order, it does not happen overnight because it requires time to mature. Army items are not procured off the shelf like you buy a TV or a mobile, like you walk into a shop and come out with the product," he said.


"To place a defence order, it takes a hell lot of time. With every Tom, Dick and Harry sitting in the department ... those who do not understand anything about actual product asking some vague questions, sometimes funny questions, also sometimes relevant questions. After he satisfies himself he gets transferred and somebody else comes in and raises different kind of queries again ... it takes lot of time," Parrikar said.


The defence minister was speaking at the foundation-laying ceremony of a new facility here for Tata Boeing Aerospace Limited (TBAL), a joint venture between Boeing and Tata Advanced Systems.

Parrikar said the government's emphasis was on skill development programmes for aviation sector, and it was working with Boeing towards that.

The minister, who in the morning visited T-Hub, a technological incubator started by the Telangana government, interacted with the budding entrepreneurs there.


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