Artillery: News & Discussion

Kashi
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kashi » 07 Oct 2016 08:32

I hope we hear something soon on the final contract signing for M777 and Vajra. Seems to be taking quite a long time.

I wonder if at least for M77 it's something to do with tech transfer for the barrels.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 07 Oct 2016 13:24

For the moment,until PInaka arrives,to meet the current crisis,we should acquire post haste a few more SMERCH systems and as many extra pieces of exg. arty and ammo that are in service from the intl market.The Modi regime should undertake swift decisions on a war footing as war may be round the corner.The chief bandicoot of the Paki army is raving and ranting against India like a rabid pig.There is no way that the Paki armed forces will play second fiddle "Nawaz Baba" and his 40+ thieves,Panama Papers ,etc.,etc.
PUshed to the brink,esp oin the decision of the next army chief,we may soon see another coup in Pak with Nawaz Baba and his gang of thieves arrested,exposed and sentenced to long prison terms. Watching the rabid Paki army chief on telly is illuminating.He has a deathwish with India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 07 Oct 2016 23:54

Smerch ka paisaa koun dega saar ? Ghar mein factory hai kya ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 07 Oct 2016 23:59

Pinaka-Mk2 already has nearly the same range as Smerch- 65 vs 70 km. I don't see the need to order new smerch. Not like they will strip the Ru army and ship them tomorrow. Hopefully IA will order the Prahaar in numbers which would be ideal to hit 180-200 km away.

Regarding the mota general, his entire family seems destined to die at the hands of IA.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karthik S » 08 Oct 2016 00:05

Isn't Smerch range > 90 km? If we can acquire a few quickly, then no harm in purchasing from Russia.
Last edited by Karthik S on 08 Oct 2016 00:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 08 Oct 2016 00:08

Only the 9M528 rockets (HE fragment). The more common ones are 50-70 km.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 08 Oct 2016 01:39

Are we ordering extra Pinaka Mk1 or 2?
I don't think P-2"has equiv range of Smerch.We need extra firepower asap to dealcwith the current crisis.Any kind of tactical missile will be v.expensive,far more than rocket rounds.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 08 Oct 2016 02:08

Pinaka mk-2 has the same launcher. Only the rocket is bigger at 5.2 m vs 4.95 m length.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 08 Oct 2016 02:17

so just need to order new ordinance and the physical platform remains same?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kit » 08 Oct 2016 16:34

Kashi wrote:I hope we hear something soon on the final contract signing for M777 and Vajra. Seems to be taking quite a long time.

I wonder if at least for M77 it's something to do with tech transfer for the barrels.



M77 titanium barrels are imported as such ..no tech transfer

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kashi » 08 Oct 2016 19:36

kit wrote:M77 titanium barrels are imported as such ..no tech transfer


US law prohibits M777 gun barrels from being manufactured in India. I wonder if that's a sticking point. But then GoI would have known this all this while.

It's puzzling why MoD sought an extension.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 08 Oct 2016 20:11

It was reported somewhere that Bharat Forge is working independently on developing Titanium barrels.

That said, I see value in setting up another AIT facaility under the Mahindras under the offsets for M777 (if and when it is ordered)

Bharat Forge, Mahindras, L&T, all are needed to work in parallel with OFB, if the artillery gap needs to be filled up in any reasonable amount of time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Oct 2016 20:32

Bheeshma wrote:Pinaka mk-2 has the same launcher. Only the rocket is bigger at 5.2 m vs 4.95 m length.



If true then not ordering more regiments while the rocket was developed doesn't look very smart to me.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 08 Oct 2016 23:34

Bheeshma wrote:Pinaka mk-2 has the same launcher. Only the rocket is bigger at 5.2 m vs 4.95 m length.


There are 3 pinakas out there:

- Pinaka Mk1
- Pinaka Mk2
- Pinaka 2

Pinaka Mk1 and Pinaka Mk2 length is same. Pinaka-2 has a longer rocket.

My understanding.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 09 Oct 2016 02:42

Rare image of BMP based 120 mm mortar

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kit » 10 Oct 2016 10:27

Bharat Forge should do some "testing" of its guns at the Afghan border with Pakistan :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 10 Oct 2016 10:54

Since we are always salivating for tot from massa why not this cheap tikau product to mechanize all our mountain and armour formations? Massa might even give the license for free as linux or gnu mode.

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People mover, mg nest, ambulance, ammo carrier, mortar pad, chota grad launcher..this thing is a tracked jeep that can do any role

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 10 Oct 2016 21:37

I think it is 81mm mortar

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 10 Oct 2016 22:35

Aditya

http://idrw.org/pinaka-mk-2-brings-indi ... e-rockets/

According to ARDE new Rocket System, unlike Pinaka MK-1 and MK-2 will not have Commonality with older systems and entirely will be a new design which will feature new launcher systems and rockets too will be longer and heavier and will be equipped with more firepower which will allow them to hit targets in range of 110-120 Km.
Also
http://idrw.org/after-pinaka-mk-ii-next ... sile-drdo/

Pinaka Mk1 and Mk 2 have 214 mm rockets. Pinaka-II is completely different and may be 300 mm rockets.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Oct 2016 02:23

http://defenceaviationpost.com/105-ultra-light-gun-garuda-bharat-forge-defexpo-india-2016/

Link to truck mounted 105-mm gun on top of the page.

This is a very interesting information. The truck on which the prototype is being mounted is an in-service army truck. Either from DRDO or IA. Look at the vehicle number on the door.

This means DRDO/IA are working with Bharat Forge on a truck mounted 105-mm gun. It sits pretty well with a snippet of information that I caught somewhere (BRF? Twitter?) that IA is working with BF on such a gun.

If this materializes, then our mountain divisions will have a great solution.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 17 Oct 2016 02:34

Damn can the bottom plate of the truck, the gun is mounted on take it without buckling? Must be really strong.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby andy B » 17 Oct 2016 02:56

Cybaru wrote:Damn can the bottom plate of the truck, the gun is mounted on take it without buckling? Must be really strong.


Saar the thing has 4 hydraulic jacks which would be used to set the thing stable prior to firing. The base mounting plate would transfer and dissipate the energy to the hydraulic mountings. Whats interesting is the weight of the thing at 900 kilos vs 3200 for normal version. Some serious metallurgy going on! In fairness though this doesnt have extra weight of the wheels and other mountings but still great effort by BF

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 17 Oct 2016 03:23

Cybaru wrote:Damn can the bottom plate of the truck, the gun is mounted on take it without buckling? Must be really strong.


This gun uses the 'soft recoil technology'. They have some springs that launch the entire barrel+breech forward, and when the barrel+breech assembly reaches a set position, fires the gun. This 'spreads' the recoil felt by the thing that the gun is mounted on over a longer duration, and reduces the force of the recoil. This reduces the overall weight of the gun. Really nifty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxhfbLt4Eno

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 17 Oct 2016 22:00

Thanks Sudeepj!

That was a badly formed sentence on my part. I should re-read what I write sometimes. Ignoring that...:)

Anyways, that is pretty amazing! I reckon though that the bottom plate will need refurbishing or replacing more often than the gun barrel even with this tech? Does the soft recoil take anything away from accuracy?

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby LokeshC » 17 Oct 2016 22:08

sudeepj wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Damn can the bottom plate of the truck, the gun is mounted on take it without buckling? Must be really strong.


This gun uses the 'soft recoil technology'. They have some springs that launch the entire barrel+breech forward, and when the barrel+breech assembly reaches a set position, fires the gun. This 'spreads' the recoil felt by the thing that the gun is mounted on over a longer duration, and reduces the force of the recoil. This reduces the overall weight of the gun. Really nifty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxhfbLt4Eno


Wow. The spring assembly will shift the position of the gun a little bit, and it makes the targeting math that much complicated. Pretty interesting.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby rakall » 18 Oct 2016 00:29

rohitvats wrote:http://defenceaviationpost.com/105-ultra-light-gun-garuda-bharat-forge-defexpo-india-2016/

Link to truck mounted 105-mm gun on top of the page.

This is a very interesting information. The truck on which the prototype is being mounted is an in-service army truck. Either from DRDO or IA. Look at the vehicle number on the door.

This means DRDO/IA are working with Bharat Forge on a truck mounted 105-mm gun. It sits pretty well with a snippet of information that I caught somewhere (BRF? Twitter?) that IA is working with BF on such a gun.

If this materializes, then our mountain divisions will have a great solution.


I don't recall where - but in the last week , somewhere Manohar Parrikar mentioned "we are almost through with a gun design which is less than 1000kilos"; So it seems there is high level of optimism, progress + a high probability of induction with this truck mounted 105mm gun.

Besides, in the talk organised by FINS he dropped the 414 number on the Dhanush gun; Said final induction trials are going on and the order of 414 is being pursued...

The question is what will happen between Bharat-52 from Kalyani and ATAGS from DRDO.

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby rakall » 18 Oct 2016 00:34

Cybaru wrote:Damn can the bottom plate of the truck, the gun is mounted on take it without buckling? Must be really strong.


The gun is only 900kg weight;

Even to consider the recoil - notice that there are two big I-beams supporting in the center below the plate..

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 18 Oct 2016 05:27

If they mount it on a slightly larger truck, they can get a dual cab design with the firing solution monitor and carry the ammo as well. Faster shoot and scoot times rather than a two truck system.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 18 Oct 2016 06:34

Cybaru wrote:If they mount it on a slightly larger truck, they can get a dual cab design with the firing solution monitor and carry the ammo as well. Faster shoot and scoot times rather than a two truck system.


Larger truck may not be suitable for mountain roads

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby shiv » 18 Oct 2016 07:27

sudeepj wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Damn can the bottom plate of the truck, the gun is mounted on take it without buckling? Must be really strong.


This gun uses the 'soft recoil technology'. They have some springs that launch the entire barrel+breech forward, and when the barrel+breech assembly reaches a set position, fires the gun. This 'spreads' the recoil felt by the thing that the gun is mounted on over a longer duration, and reduces the force of the recoil. This reduces the overall weight of the gun. Really nifty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxhfbLt4Eno

Thanks for pointing that out. It can be seen clearly from this moment on..
https://youtu.be/qxhfbLt4Eno?t=60

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Re: CT and COIN operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Postby shiv » 18 Oct 2016 07:30

LokeshC wrote:
Wow. The spring assembly will shift the position of the gun a little bit, and it makes the targeting math that much complicated. Pretty interesting.

Would it be that difficult to compensate for a position shift that is constant for every shot and easily measured?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 18 Oct 2016 12:07

Kakkaji wrote:
Cybaru wrote:If they mount it on a slightly larger truck, they can get a dual cab design with the firing solution monitor and carry the ammo as well. Faster shoot and scoot times rather than a two truck system.


Larger truck may not be suitable for mountain roads


Hmm.. Perhaps they could have a one truck solution for the plains and a two truck solution for those mountain roads. But don't see advantage in having a two truck system in the plains. Harder to collect/pack and scoot. If all the solders are on the truck along with the munitions, its just easy to scoot away.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 18 Oct 2016 12:32

The truck on which the prototype is mounted in Bharat-Forge is an in-service truck of the Indian Army. So, that part of the argument has been already solved. That truck is a TATA LPTA 713 which is a 2.5 T category troop carrier.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 18 Oct 2016 12:40

Adding ammunition storage and other stuff on truck will only increase it's weight, negating the advantages of light weight and speed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 Oct 2016 13:08

>>a high probability of induction with this truck mounted 105mm gun.

a while back I was pooh poohed and booed on this forum for suggesting we can invest in next gen 105mm guns and ammo like these. the argument was these were useless against TSPian concrete bunkers as if thats the only target around. and moreover the uber 155/52 need to get to a location where it can reach some targets - no can do on some areas...plus higher capex and opex.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 20 Oct 2016 01:02

jamwal wrote:Adding ammunition storage and other stuff on truck will only increase it's weight, negating the advantages of light weight and speed.


Not in the plains. Found something like this. A 5 ton truck which has a dual cab setup with 30-40 rounds and screen would be quite awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Fn3SIqqp8

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Oct 2016 10:47

The caliber for the Evo 105 seems much lesser than the IA 37 or 39 gun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Tublai Khan » 20 Oct 2016 12:34

With a lot of people here vouching for the 106 mm RCL, can the truck mounted 105 mm gun be used in a direct fire mode just like the RCL? It has been mentioned here that the recoil is highly reduced by the new design of the mounting.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 20 Oct 2016 12:49

Cybaru wrote:
jamwal wrote:Adding ammunition storage and other stuff on truck will only increase it's weight, negating the advantages of light weight and speed.


Not in the plains. Found something like this. A 5 ton truck which has a dual cab setup with 30-40 rounds and screen would be quite awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Fn3SIqqp8



This truck is also twice as heavy as the Bharat Forge system and has a lot of other accessories including armour which makes it even heavier and costlier.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 20 Oct 2016 13:08

Well you will need another truck to lug around extra troops and ammo any which way. So there is no getting around that. For mountainous regions that maybe fine, but for plains a single truck which serves as a unit might be better. I think they should evolve this idea further and put it on a slightly larger truck.


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