Artillery: News & Discussion

ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Jun 2018 22:54

^^but it certainly allows us to fire from behind the front lines to slightly behind the frontlines. Anyways what is the linear width of porkistan, if you know what i Mean

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 14 Jun 2018 23:10

ArjunPandit wrote:^^but it certainly allows us to fire from behind the front lines to slightly behind the frontlines. Anyways what is the linear width of porkistan, if you know what i Mean

An ATAGS located in Amritsar can hit the middle of Lahore with regular unguided shells. We do not need these uber-expensive 100km ranged shells against the pakis. What we need is overwhelming numerical superiority in regular tube and rocket artillery. Keep it simple and buy in bulk should be our philosophy.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 14 Jun 2018 23:32

This was from L&T Defence at DefExpo
https://vimeo.com/275115141

We don't have vimeo embedding and our youtube channel is "suspended" for some reason.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SBajwa » 14 Jun 2018 23:55

nachiket wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^but it certainly allows us to fire from behind the front lines to slightly behind the frontlines. Anyways what is the linear width of porkistan, if you know what i Mean

An ATAGS located in Amritsar can hit the middle of Lahore with regular unguided shells. We do not need these uber-expensive 100km ranged shells against the pakis. What we need is overwhelming numerical superiority in regular tube and rocket artillery. Keep it simple and buy in bulk should be our philosophy.


From Border to Defense housing authority in Lahore is 25 KM where the top kernails and gernails live. So is airport.

Middle of Sialkote from Gurdaspur district is 16 KM

Their Rawalpindi (GHQ) is 32 KM from LOC

ISI headquarter in Islamabad is at Khayaban-e-Suharwardy, G-7/4, G-7, Islamabad which is 85 KMs.

so are many other cities!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 Jun 2018 00:30

if I were the PM for one day, ISI HQ, muridke would be pinaked

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 15 Jun 2018 01:01

I have been binge watching WW1 videos and some of the artillery duels were staggering.

The battle of Somme is famous, however there are other battles where crazy level of artillery was used.

In battle of Verdun Germans fired 2 million shells on the French! Flattened the entire town.

In another offensive, the French sprayed 17 million shells on a 40 mile by 2 mile German front!

Despite such numbers, the front hardly moved!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 15 Jun 2018 01:38

SBajwa wrote:ISI headquarter in Islamabad is at Khayaban-e-Suharwardy, G-7/4, G-7, Islamabad which is 85 KMs.

Totally OT, but I finally understood what that Harpal Bector character was referring to :oops: :lol:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 15 Jun 2018 02:01

Bart S wrote:
SBajwa wrote:ISI headquarter in Islamabad is at Khayaban-e-Suharwardy, G-7/4, G-7, Islamabad which is 85 KMs.

Totally OT, but I finally understood what that Harpal Bector character was referring to :oops: :lol:


Artillery walon ko Keh do , ISI ko reverse EID Mubarak ka message bejho.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 15 Jun 2018 02:12

ArjunPandit wrote:if I were the PM for one day, ISI HQ, muridke would be pinaked


That's why you are not the PM

Attacking a government organisation & office is asking for war. Also ISI dosent operate only from its HQ

Most importantly Pinaka doesn't have the range and precision to do that

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 15 Jun 2018 02:54

nachiket wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^but it certainly allows us to fire from behind the front lines to slightly behind the frontlines. Anyways what is the linear width of porkistan, if you know what i Mean

An ATAGS located in Amritsar can hit the middle of Lahore with regular unguided shells. We do not need these uber-expensive 100km ranged shells against the pakis. What we need is overwhelming numerical superiority in regular tube and rocket artillery. Keep it simple and buy in bulk should be our philosophy.


So can a M-77 located in Lahore or Mudkee be very successful in obliterating chosen targets in Amritsar.


Couple of points of view from spending way too much time with artillery officers.

You don't place your artillery inside urban areas. Prevents freedom of movement and opens you up to entrapment.
You don't other b4st4rd's built up areas, you scout and recee for bunched\ grouped\ massed infantry and hit em hard.

To give you an idea, my family owns a rather mega large orchard in Punjab, next to the border.
During exercises and during Op Parikaram, do you want to take a guess who was there the whole time.

yes the infantry, hunkered down and camo-ed.

The officers leading the men there were under no doubts that their location was marked and known to the Pak Army artillery.
Now I am sure the same exists in the other direction.

Flattenning cities for the sake of flattening cities was Stalingrad WW2 style.
it only came back in Iraq when both parties wanted to occupy the land and the insurgents took advantage of the Urban Jungle.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 15 Jun 2018 03:13

I gave the Amritsar-Lahore example to give an idea of the ranges we are dealing with on the Pak border and what is achievable with current guns and shells. I wasn't suggesting that the IA actually site an artillery battery in Amritsar city. That would be quite stupid.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 15 Jun 2018 09:12

Sorry chief
:-)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 15 Jun 2018 12:02

Singha wrote:I dont think a army division engaged in combat will want to recon and strike targets 100km behind a active battlefront. they will leave it to airpower and SRBMs each of whom can deliver 300-1000kg of warhead in one shot.


Yes, an army division on an active battlefront, in a hot war, certainly would not. And employment of Air Power and SRBMs would mean couple of rungs climbed up the escalatory ladder, not to forget the much higher costs thereof. The Pakis have usually been very careful to stay below that threshold. Hence our regular LOC skirmishes are mostly limited to small arms and mortars and at times man portable ATGMs and smaller caliber artillery.

The excaliber round costs around 70K USD per unit, so we can expect this ramjet round to cost much more than that. Plus space within the round for the fuel means compromise on the ammo. Just not enough bang for the buck. Then there is the question if and how much extra pressure the ramjet shells will put on the barrels, increasing the rate of decay of the rifling (leading to lowering of accuracy for the regular shells) and reducing the overall barrel life.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jun 2018 12:10

I can understand the rationale behind arty rounds such as Excalibur or the laser guided rounds or for that matter the PGK. to that extent I also understand the idea behind VLAP or ERFB.

But a ramjet powered round makes no sense to me. As you could simply add a solid booster and launch it like a missile. It will do exactly what needs to be done. So why add the complexity of shooting it through the barrel of the gun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby darshhan » 15 Jun 2018 17:46

Pratyush wrote:I can understand the rationale behind arty rounds such as Excalibur or the laser guided rounds or for that matter the PGK. to that extent I also understand the idea behind VLAP or ERFB.

But a ramjet powered round makes no sense to me. As you could simply add a solid booster and launch it like a missile. It will do exactly what needs to be done. So why add the complexity of shooting it through the barrel of the gun.


It is actually a solution looking for a problem. Probably will be sold at more than half a million dollars. Anything more and you are better off buying a cruise missile.

During the last 50 years or so, Europeans do not have much of combat experience. Hence it is understandable why they suck when it comes to designing cheap and effective weapons.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 15 Jun 2018 18:51

Well how about flipping it the other way, with propulsion, you can call in an Arty strike and take out particular vehicles in a High value convoy using these rounds since they wouldn't run out of Kinetic energy like ballistic rounds that too using a standard Arty battery. Drones and hellfire missiles that are usually employed for this role are not cheap either.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SBajwa » 15 Jun 2018 18:59

Khalsa wrote:
nachiket wrote:An ATAGS located in Amritsar can hit the middle of Lahore with regular unguided shells. We do not need these uber-expensive 100km ranged shells against the pakis. What we need is overwhelming numerical superiority in regular tube and rocket artillery. Keep it simple and buy in bulk should be our philosophy.


So can a M-77 located in Lahore or Mudkee be very successful in obliterating chosen targets in Amritsar.


Couple of points of view from spending way too much time with artillery officers.

You don't place your artillery inside urban areas. Prevents freedom of movement and opens you up to entrapment.
You don't other b4st4rd's built up areas, you scout and recee for bunched\ grouped\ massed infantry and hit em hard.

To give you an idea, my family owns a rather mega large orchard in Punjab, next to the border.
During exercises and during Op Parikaram, do you want to take a guess who was there the whole time.

yes the infantry, hunkered down and camo-ed.

The officers leading the men there were under no doubts that their location was marked and known to the Pak Army artillery.
Now I am sure the same exists in the other direction.

Flattenning cities for the sake of flattening cities was Stalingrad WW2 style.
it only came back in Iraq when both parties wanted to occupy the land and the insurgents took advantage of the Urban Jungle.



I have seen artillery well hidden in sugar cane fields but in these times of weapons locating radars is this a good idea? Practicing Shoot and scoot should be the key now.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 15 Jun 2018 20:03

Thanks guys.

The Army did right thing to fire those large number of rounds to find the limits of the design. Theoretical calculations are good to establish the design. But limits should be by testing to determine failure modes.

Barrels erode due to chemicals from charge combustion and less from physical wear.
Shell balloting happens due to gap between shell and barrel.

I think OFB shells past history of barrel burst was a red herring.
Army COI often cleared the gun for further trials shows theur confidence.

I would like to know what were the results of the instrumented shells fired from the M777 guns?

This would confirm the forces during the firing of the shells.

My guess us the measurements showed OFB shells are within family of the shells fired from M777. Otherwise we would hear about shoddy OFB made shells.
Then why did the shell 'exit in multiple pieces'?
The shell was ERFB which is lower fracture strength. It's was around 1160th round. Erosion can't be ruled out. So likely shell burst in the barrel.
Hope they clear this inquiry and resume M777 procurement. The MSC needs them

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Jun 2018 20:16

darshhan wrote:During the last 50 years or so, Europeans do not have much of combat experience.


UK, France have been very active in a number of wars - apart from Iraq and Afghanistan - lots of special forces engagements across Africa and elsewhere and a few sizeable deployments, plus peace keeping/policing roles
Most Nato members have contributed significant combat forces to Iraq and Afghanistan wars
the main country to not be heavily involved is Germany

doesn't usually get picked up in the US media

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2018 22:30

peacekeeping, kite flying, COIN, CT .... none have seen full on conventional large scale combat.

the british amphibious attack on Basra in ODS and OIF - I am yet to see credible account of how much real fighting they had to do.

about the only real fighting was in falkland islands but again at no more than batallion strength engagements, perhaps company strength for most part.

you can always pick and choose your best units and overprovision the support elements to give a good account. its when multiple corps have to fight that separates the men from the boys.

their capabilities at heavier end of spectrum have atrophied badly for ground forces - very little to no tanks, limited heavy artillery, belgium seems to have mothballed most of its F-16 , netherlands is nook nood wrt tanks, UK cannot afford even 2 carriers and will limp along with 1, harriers all gone, no money to invest in LRMP, dassault needing govt bailouts , ....... murica probably has 10x more stuff in its boneyards than EU in its cantonments.

hence the wailing and howling by "frontline" states like poland and ukraine for *murican bases* and *murican divisions* not the vaunted EU rapid reaction forces er um batallions.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 16 Jun 2018 09:34

Their air forces too have only seen a ton of mud moving roles and not as many air to air in contested air space. Be it Libya or Iraq or Afg. In these same countries, including Syria, they've not fought against an equivalent army but ragtag talibunnies. Only Iraq had a semblance of an army but even they were a one legged army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Jun 2018 05:54

Artillery usage in Kargil.

Singha calculate on number of shells per km and compare to earlier Wars.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 93248?s=19


In 1999 Kargil War , about 69,800 Bofors (155 mm) shells, 1,90,000 Field Gun (105 mm) shells, 16,100 Mortar (120 mm) shells, 3,400 Medium Gun (130 mm) shells, 9000 heavy Mortar (160 mm) shells and 5,300 Pinaka Rockets were fired on targets occupied by Pakistani Army !

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 17 Jun 2018 15:10

Per above tweet, pinaka fired 5000 rockets. Might not be true.

M-46 firing only 4000 shells is also hard to believe. Ammo was less expensive than Bofors, and gun is the backbone of Indian Army artillery.

If they fired more rounds from the 160 mm mortar than the 120 mm one, they must be indeed impressed with its performance. Wonder why they started phasing it out soon after Kargil, while the 120 mm one still continues.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Arun.prabhu » 17 Jun 2018 17:51

From what I have read from western service men, anything above 120mm is not man portable. This could be the reason. 160mm shells may be more effective but leave you exposed to counter battery fire if the team can’t move to another firing location quickly.

dinesh_kimar wrote:Per above tweet, pinaka fired 5000 rockets. Might not be true.

M-46 firing only 4000 shells is also hard to believe. Ammo was less expensive than Bofors, and gun is the backbone of Indian Army artillery.

If they fired more rounds from the 160 mm mortar than the 120 mm one, they must be indeed impressed with its performance. Wonder why they started phasing it out soon after Kargil, while the 120 mm one still continues.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rupak » 17 Jun 2018 21:31

dinesh_kimar wrote:Per above tweet, pinaka fired 5000 rockets. Might not be true.

M-46 firing only 4000 shells is also hard to believe. Ammo was less expensive than Bofors, and gun is the backbone of Indian Army artillery..


Strictly speaking, the IFG/LFG is the backbone. The M46 was deployed in limited numbers because it cannot achieve the high angle of fire that the FH77 and IFG can. Apart from the the 'Pinaka', the other numbers seem O

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby krishna_krishna » 18 Jun 2018 07:37

Still waiting for any confirmation from official IA sources that they have uber exploited dhanush and gun was found saftisfactory. If there was a flaw they would not stop a second to malign OFB , DRDO and how desi products are crap. But now everything has been completed you see its been ar -junked (Swept under the carpet). It is hard for someone who respects armed forces to see how even after all the tests are not professional owning up and supporting local.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 18 Jun 2018 08:35

Folks - pardon me for using this word but despite my consideration for due anxiety by posters i cant stop saying we are quite immature when it comes to dissing armed forces on their acquisitions. Do you expect them to have a project manager send out race/gantt charts every week followed up with a report containing exec summar, highlight and lowlight. Forget about armed forces did GSTN company do that when it was rolling out the GST ? may be a bad example but hope you get the drift.

In the past, yes there were malicious attempts to derail indigenous systems but i believe this has changed considerably now, is it spit polish clean no it isnt but atleast they are on the right path. At the same time, there could be procedural delays when it comes to ordering these items, we should talk about that and see if we can suggest remedies or may be there are mindset problems but attributing everything to malice is not the right way to go.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SSridhar » 18 Jun 2018 08:58

Dhanush artillery gun clears final trials - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu
The indigenously upgraded artillery gun Dhanush has successfully completed final user trials and is ready for induction into the Army. Dhanush is an upgraded version of the Swedish Bofors gun procured by India in the mid- 1980s.

“This was the third and final phase of user exploitation firings in which six Dhanush guns were fired in battery formation from May 31 to June 7, 2018 at the Pokhran field firing range. A total of 301 rounds were fired from the six guns, including burst fire,” said Dr. Uddipan Mukherjee, public relations officer of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), in response to a questionnaire from this newspaper.

The first phase of trials were conducted between July and September 2016 at the Pokhran and Babina ranges and the second phase was conducted between October and December 2016 at the Siachen base camp with three guns. A total of 1,520 rounds have been fired in all the three phases.

Tested in all terrains

During the trials, the guns travelled extensively in towed/ self-propelled mode in desert and high-altitude terrains with each gun clocking over 1,000 km, demonstrating their mobility.

Dr. Mukherjee said the next step was the completion of general staff evaluation, after which Bulk Production Clearance (BPC) will be accorded.
The OFB already has an indent from the Army for 114 guns and will start supplying the guns on receipt of the BPC. “The OFB has already supplied six guns for battery firing during the user trials. Another 12 guns will be issued within a year on receipt of the BPC,” he stated.

The entire order of 114 guns is to be delivered within four years. To meet the requirement, the Board has undertaken capacity augmentation to manufacture over 400 barrels and 250 ordnances for large-calibre weapon systems, Dr. Mukherjee said, adding that the OFB was confident of producing eight to 10 guns per month within two to three years. As of now, the gun has over 80% indigenous content. The imported systems include the power pack, parts of the electronic suite, and some seals and bearings.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 18 Jun 2018 10:36

Note :- "Next Step"

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2018 10:53

The barrels are the tough ones.
They can substitute the powerpack engine. The power pack drives an electric generator for the electric drive.
The seals and bearings are being imported from OEM.
We know of the scam for Chinese made roller bearings where the supplier had fake Chinese made bearings passed off as OEM.
The OFB signed an agreement with the OEM who supplied Bofors gun.

The seals are miscellaneous O rings which can be procured anywhere.



So when is the general staff evaluation and the BPC?

Then there is the OFB upgrade to 130mm gun carriage called Sarang. These are also large numbers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jun 2018 13:04

I have some trouble with the number of pinaka rounds (5000) fired during kargil war. I have seen image's of BM 21 engaging Pakistani forces. But have yet to come across any image or vidio of pinaka engaging with the enemy.

So could it be that BM21 was mistaken for pinaka? And the same has been carried till this day.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 18 Jun 2018 13:12

+100

Guys, have to echo SuryaG.

Its one thing to raise justified concerns, quite another to constantly diss the IA, even before the results are out about any actual malafide intent to delay induction.

Despite OFBs huge errors of commission and omission, IA has given them such a huge chance for the Dhanush and is well justified to protect its troops lives via extensive trials.

Just think, would you have wanted to be the soldier firing a weapon which has had barrel bursts and with OFBs prior issues with QC/QA. Now, by conducting these trials, the IA has done the RIGHT THING by ensuring product quality and I hope they continue to strictly monitor the OFB production.

Please extend them the courtesy of having thought things through and fixing things the right way.

suryag wrote:Folks - pardon me for using this word but despite my consideration for due anxiety by posters i cant stop saying we are quite immature when it comes to dissing armed forces on their acquisitions. Do you expect them to have a project manager send out race/gantt charts every week followed up with a report containing exec summar, highlight and lowlight. Forget about armed forces did GSTN company do that when it was rolling out the GST ? may be a bad example but hope you get the drift.

In the past, yes there were malicious attempts to derail indigenous systems but i believe this has changed considerably now, is it spit polish clean no it isnt but atleast they are on the right path. At the same time, there could be procedural delays when it comes to ordering these items, we should talk about that and see if we can suggest remedies or may be there are mindset problems but attributing everything to malice is not the right way to go.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 18 Jun 2018 13:47

Pratyush wrote:I have some trouble with the number of pinaka rounds (5000) fired during kargil war. I have seen image's of BM 21 engaging Pakistani forces. But have yet to come across any image or vidio of pinaka engaging with the enemy.

So could it be that BM21 was mistaken for pinaka? And the same has been carried till this day.


It should be BM21, if i am correct the first regiment of Pinaka was formed only in 2000. But there were reports of Pinaka use in kargil war with help of scientists, I think i have read about it but cant remember correctly

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jun 2018 13:56

Pinaka was fired in front of Star News(which broke away and became NDTV). Some 20-40 rockets were fired. As per the Army, Pinaka destroyed a Paki Army logistics base in POK. One thing many forget is Pakis also lost lot causualties to our artillery fire across the LOC- not one of those causualties has ever been acknowledged by the Pakis or even those killed by our airstrikes at Muntho DHalo have been acknowleged. Only medal winners on our side of LOC who died directly fighting in hand to hand combat with IA have been acknowleged in 2010- this list itself is 450, so actual Paki causualties in Kargil could be 2500, similarly they never acknowleged thier death toll in Operation Parakram. I guess a fair number of thier soldiers have also met thier 72 after Sep 16.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 18 Jun 2018 14:21

It was also fired with DRDO personal integrated. One of the team member was injured in Pak counter battery on Pinaka.

Obviously this was not done in front of the tv cameras.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jun 2018 14:33

1) is there a video of the firing in front of star news.

2) let's accept that it was used, but 5000 rounds being fired by it. That almost looks like the weapon is in full scale service.


What am I missing?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kit » 18 Jun 2018 14:38

Gyan wrote:Note :- "Next Step"


:rotfl:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jun 2018 14:45

Here is Youtube video of BM-21 fired during Kargil before STar news Camera s

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 18 Jun 2018 19:43

pinaka was reportedly fired during kargil in 'real life' trials (my terminology, not IA's). I don't think it was a confusion with BM-21 as both were mentioned in the same report. it was reportedly succesful but I do not remember any videos or photos of it. I remember this clearly since I was looking for it, still have a load of newspaper/magazine cuttings from that time. I would be really surprised if the number of rounds fired touched 4figures, even 3 figures would be slightly surprising.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jun 2018 22:49

eriee silence on this front in Media, from Indranil, JayS, and ramana sir nothing after the pic of Uttam. or may be we are too eager. But I would have expected at least SP10 to be ready.
Praying for the best!


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