Artillery: News & Discussion

Khalsa
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 02 Aug 2018 02:10

Pratyush wrote:
Indranil wrote:I think they are just transporting it.

Most senseble comment on the zsu thing.


Would love to agree with IR but I have seen many COs trying to hack the Zsu into a SP unit because they want to remove down time of unhooking and and prepping it to fire.


Re: the transporting thing.
Zsus always move on wheels.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Aug 2018 04:06

Please look out for news about Electronic fuzes from BEL unit in Pune.

Should have commenced production by now.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 02 Aug 2018 15:54

ramana wrote:Please look out for news about Electronic fuzes from BEL unit in Pune.

Should have commenced production by now.


BEL plans to come up with artillery fuse plant in Nagpur

So far, with 1.5 lakh units made at its plant in Pune, BEL hopes to make a similar amount on an annual basis at the proposed unit in Nagpur.


As of 18th July 2018.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2018 06:56

Thanks. Very good idea to have the new factory at Nagpur as it minimizes the road travel loads on the filled fuzes.
Also the emphasis on 105mm fuzes shows how many of those guns and ammo is in inventory.
Wonder if same fuze can be fitted into different shells.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 01:52

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1025812347766624257 ---> A K9 Vajra-T tracked howitzer from L&T’s Hazira assembly facility rolls in this picture from Thursday. Part of the first batch that’s all set to be delivered to the Army next month. Full report up this week.

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby krishna_krishna » 05 Aug 2018 01:59

Finally after many nears good news on artillery front. Here is small news to bring small cheer to aam Abduls on BRF:

GCF to hand over first lot of 6 ‘Dhanush-155’ guns to Army

http://thehitavada.com/Encyc/2018/7/15/ ... -lot-of-6-‘Dhanush-155--guns-to-Army.aspx

Finally, Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur (GCF) obtained green signal for handing over first lot of six ‘Dhanush – 155’ guns to the Indian Army, on Saturday. Director General (Artillery), Lieutenant General P K Shrivastava congratulated the management and team of GCF for successful trials of Dhanush-155 at Pokharan (Rajasthan) and directed for preparing the guns for handing over to the Indian Army. Earlier, DG (Artillery), Lieutenant General, P K Shrivastava, accompanied by GCF, Senior General Manager, S K Singh, representatives of other units, including Controller Quality Assurance (Weapons), Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA), Bharat Electronics Limited, Bengaluru, OF Ambernath etc. involved in Dhanush Project, conducted visit of Dhanush production unit and sought information about progress in development of more guns. He interacted with the officers engaged in production and overhauling of Dhanush-155.

In second phase of the inspection, Lieutenant General P K Shrivastava chaired a review meeting of Dhanush Project. He applauded the efforts of GCF administration and other supporting units for successful upgradation of Swedish Bofors gun and enhancing its firing efficiency. He directed the officers to complete overhauling of six guns and starting preparation for handing over to the Indian Army. He also directed the officers to start production of 12 new guns and sought information about preparations and materials procurement.
Last edited by krishna_krishna on 05 Aug 2018 02:10, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 02:01

Very good news. Krishna, please provide source for above...

Added Later: Thank You Krishna. Greatly appreciated.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 04:52

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1025850491736010752 ---> I think OFB should be able to deliver twelve 155 mm Dhanush howitzer units to the Army in the next fiscal once bulk production clearance is awarded post general staff evaluation.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2018 04:59

Great news on Dhanush. Delivered 6 and order for 12 more.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Katare » 05 Aug 2018 05:12

Wow, three type of 155mm artillery guns getting delivered to army within the same quarter is simply amazing!!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2018 05:32

The Hitavada site has quite a few artillery reports!

http://thehitavada.com//Encyc/2018/6/14 ... m-155.aspx



ANOTHER indigenously developed gun system ‘Soltam-155’ at Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), Jabalpur, is awaiting nod from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to kick-start its production.
GCF has given a tough contest to other gun systems developed by two private companies and emerged on top with fulfilling technical parameters recommended by the Indian Army. GCF Senior General Manager S K Singh, while talking to ‘The Hitavada’, confirmed that indigenously developed gun system with upgradation of Russian 130 mm gun named ‘Soltam-155’ passed through rigorous user trials and awaiting green signal from higher authorities to start its production. Two prototype guns were developed on recommendation of the Indian Army and handed over for testing of their technical parameters in Field Evaluation Trials (FET). He is hopeful to get production order for Soltam-155 in next 4 to 6 months. Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) in collaboration with Ordnance Development Centre, Kanpur, and Ordnance Factory Kanpur successfully completed upgradation of Soltam gun.


The factory has upgraded Israel made 130 mm Soltam gun that was procured by the Indian Army from Russia. Upgradation of 130 mm Russian gun is a part of research and developments being carried out at Gun Carriage Factory.
The factory participated in technical bidding amongst two other private firms to exhibit its upgraded guns to procure its
production order from the Ministry of Defence. Gun Carriage Factory has already proved its mettle by indigenously developing longest firing Dhanush-155/45 calibre gun and eyeing positive nod from Ordnance Factory Board to register its strong presence against private firms in production of best defence weapons for the nation.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2018 05:40

http://thehitavada.com//Encyc/2018/6/9/ ... h-155.aspx



GCF stands out with indigenous production of Dhanush-155
Source: The Hitavada Date: 09 Jun 2018 13:24:55



Staff Reporter,

“BEING one of the oldest weapon manufacturing units in the country, Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) Jabalpur has proved its mettle with indigenous development of world’s longest firing ‘Dhanush-155 gun. Along with Dhanush, GCF is also developing some new guns of variant uses with rigorous research and development works. Pride of Jabalpur, Dhanush Gun will be serving the nation for a long time to come,” informed Senior General Manager of Gun Carriage Factory Jabalpur S K Singh, while addressing a press conference on Friday. The 114-year-old GCF has now unmatchable expertise in indigenous production of weapons to strengthen armed forces on national borders. Indigenous artillery gun will take India out of perpetual import and foreign dependency for artillery gun.

Senior GM Singh informed that indigenously developed ‘Dhanush-155’ is the pride of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and also brought the name of Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur (GCF) on world map. The 12 prototype Dhanush guns manufactured at GCF have successfully passed through rigorous internal and user trials in extreme climatic and torrential conditions. Prototype guns have fired around 4,200 rounds in last 54 months’ trial and emerged as exceptional gun in terms of accuracy and constituency.

Indigenous content of Dhanush is more than 81 per cent and efforts are being made to reach indigenisation level of 90 per cent by 2019. OFB is geared up to provide a comprehensive support system for spares, training and maintenance for Dhanush Gun System, which are not readily available for imported gun system. Mentioning about success story of Dhanush-155, Senior General Manager Singh informed that a significant decision was taken by Defence Acquisition Council in October 2011 for modernisation and development of 45-caliber, 155 mm indigenous artillery gun system, a project named ‘Dhanush’ was undertaken in GCF, Jabalpur, with collaboration of sister Ordnance Factories, PSUs and Private Industries.

In 2014, prototype of Dhanush was made ready for user trial and evaluation. He added that Dhanush Gun System has successfully completed winter trials at Sikkim and Leh, summer trials at Pokharan besides firing demonstration at PXE Balasore and Babina range, Jhansi. DGQA evaluation and maintainability trials have been completed already. For more than a year, Dhanush gun was undergoing user exploitation at Pokharan, where two incidents leading to damage of Muzzle and Barrel of the gun took place. An expert panel of officers of different departments of MoD carried out an investigation to ascertain reasons of accident.

Design of entire gun systemwas revisited and international standards were used for testing functioning standards. Investigation team could not find any design related defect in the gun system of Dhanush.
Dhanush Gun System has build confidence among Indian industries and DRDO that 155 mm gun system with all complexities and intricacies can be developed and produced in India. It is a result of this confidence building initiative of GCF that many Indian players are undertaking development of 155 mm gun system.


‘Dhanush, tried and tested successfully’

GCF Senior GM S K Singh informed that reliability in the field of functioning was an area of concern which has been addressed in last one year. During last 2 trials of Dhanush, one at PXE Balasore and another at Pokharan user exploitation. In last user exploitation trial at Pokharan, gun system successfully completed battery firing comprising 6 guns at Pokharan on June 7.

Above 300 rounds were fired in last 5 days on trial schedules and all 6 guns fired around 50 rounds each. On June 7, all 6 guns fired simultaneously around 100 rounds without any major stoppage. BMCS of OF Nalanda was used during firing trial of Dhanush. Besides this, MBCS from Nexter, South Africa was also fired from Dhanush.




Dhanush-155 pride of OFB

Indigenous content of ‘Dhanush-155 gun, world’s longest firing, is more than 81 per cent and efforts are being made to reach indigenisation level of 90 per cent by 2019. Dhanush has successfully completed winter trials at Sikkim and Leh, summer trials at Pokharan besides firing demonstration at PXE Balasore and Babina range, Jhansi. Dhanush has build confidence among Indian industries and DRDO that 155 mm gun system with all complexities and intricacies can be developed and produced in India.



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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Aug 2018 02:49

From a DRDO book

1.11BRIEF HISTORY OF DEVELOPMENT OF PROXIMITY FUZES IN INDIA
(1966-1975)

The variable-time (VT) fuze was an important contribution of World War II and it
was the first ever attempt to introduce electronics in armaments. While the Indian Navy
was using fuzes imported from the UK, the Indian Army did not possess these. Since its
aerial burst was effective against ground troops, the development of the fuze was
undertaken by ARDE. It was the prime contractor and was responsible for the
development of the explosive train. The electronics part was concurrently developed by
two R&D agencies, namely the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) of the
Department of Atomic Energy and by the Solid State Physics Laboratory (SSPL) of
DRDO. The BARC was involved in the development of the VT fuze for the 25 Pounder
gun while the SSPL’s involvement was for the development of the VT fuze for the 75/24
Pack Howitzer. The VT fuzes for the 105 mm IFG and the 75/24 Pack Howitzer were
successfully completed and they rolled out of the production line in 1973. For this
project, ARDE had two customers, namely the Army and the Indian Navy, two associate
R&D agencies in development namely BARC and SSPL, and three production
agencies, namely Electronics Corporation of India (fuze for 105 mm IFG) and HAL, both
in Hyderabad and an ordnance factory. It was no easy task for ARDE to finalise in
association with the agencies involved in development and production and with the
User Services, the modalities for testing and proofing the rounds and quality
acceptance procedures. The development work on fuzes continued with BARC and
SSPL and was crowned with success, with BARC involved in the VT fuze for the 76.2 mm
gun for the Navy and SSPL for the VT fuzes for the 130 mm Russian gun for the Army
and the 4.5 inch gun for the Navy.
The development of proximity fuzes for 75/24 Howitzer was assigned to SSPL in the
year 1966. Dr NB Bhatt was the Director of SSPL when the formal project was entrusted
with its design and development. Prof. DS Kothari who was the first Scientific Advisor
of the Minister of Defence and headed the Defence Science Organisation formed in
1958. Right from the inception of the project, Dr DS Kothari took keen interest in the
development of proximity fuze and monitored its development even after his successor
Prof Bhagavantam had taken over as Scientific Advisor in 1961. Dr BD Nagchaudhari
who took over as the Scientific Advisor on 1st July 1970 took tremendous interest in the
development of proximity fuzes and was great source of inspiration to the author and
the team which successfully developed the proximity fuzes for 75/24 Howitzer shell.
Major General JR Samson who was the Chief Controller of the Defence R&D
Organization was a key driving force. His keen interest in the development of fuzes
provided tremendous impetus to the progress of the project.
Some exploratory work on VT Fuzes was being carried out by a small team in a
group in Defence Science Laboratory situated in the Metcalfe House complex called the
Radar Research Wing under Dr NB Bhatt who later became the Director of SSPL situated
at Metcalfe House. This exploratory work continued at SSPL after shifting to Lucknow
Road but unfortunately no success on VT fuzes had been achieved.
Soon after the formal sanction of the project to develop a proximity fuze was
sanctioned to SSPL in early 1966, Dr NB Bhatt requested the R&D Headquarters that the
author be called from DRDL, Hyderabad to lead the fuze project. The author had worked
in the Special Weapons Development Team (SWDT) co-located with the R&D research
8
History of Proximity Fuzes
wing in Metcalfe House with Dr BN Singh as its Director. The author joined SSPL in
March 1966 and with a team of three other young scientists, PC Nagpal, MN Sen,
GJ Chaturvedi and two technicians commenced the work on electronics of the fuze.
The
team developed a prototype of CW proximity fuze in three months. The fuze electronics
developed consisted of a Colpitts oscillator at 220 MHz using an epoxy encapsulated
RF transistor, Doppler amplifier, a Schmitt threshold circuit and a transistor switch to
ignite the detonator. The fuze oscillator detector was tested for its sensitivity by using
a horizontally moving aluminium reflector in the vicinity of fuze. The complete
electronics was encapsulated. The oscillator was encapsulated in low density
polyethylene. The remaining circuit was encapsulated in an epoxy resin. The electronics
was embedded in a plastic nose cone with a metal cap on top of the nose cone which in
conjunction with shell body would work as a quarter wave monopole antenna.
The complete electronics was tested for its ruggedness by the drop test. The fuze
was fitted on a 25 pound dummy shell and dropped in a guided steel tube over a metal
block from the roof top of a 40 feet high building. The electronics withstood the ‘g’ test
estimated to be several thousand ‘g’s.
The fuze was powered with a dry battery of 22.5 V. The first few fuzes were designed
to function with a 25 pound smoke shell (and tuned to appropriate frequency of
oscillator with this shell) at Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) at Chandipore
on sea at Balasore in Orissa. The fuze in its first firing failed. It was soon discovered from
the recovery of the fuzed shells that the fuze had failed due to its defective
encapsulation of the battery in wax. Wax as the encapsulant of the battery was replaced
with a polyester resin. In the second test carried out with this encapsulation of the
battery and without any changes in electronics, in September 1966, the fuze was fired at
charge II of 25 pounder shell. The fuze achieved air bursts over the sea as could be seen
from the beautiful flash of the smoke shell. The fuze had made a history in September
1966, as this was first successful fuze developed by the DRDO.
From this point onwards
there was no looking back.The process of improvements to withstand shocks on higher
charges were carried out. The fuzes using new nose cones fabricated from glass filled
polypropylene were successfully fired with high explosive shells right upto the charge
IV of 75/24 Pack-How shell. The sensitivity of the fuzes was improved using optimized
oscillator-detector. Also a new reserve battery suggested by the author had been
developed by this team during 1969. The system consisted of a single cell using carbon-
zinc system with chromic acid/stannic chloride electrolyte in conjunction with a DC-DC
converter capable of satisfactory operation from 1.5 volts. This was the first
development of a single cell battery in India and perhaps in the world for fuze
applications, as no other fuze was known to have used a single cell system.
Concurrent with the development of the fuze, a new technique called the hoist gear
technique was developed in end 1966. The author and his team developed a completely
new system of measuring the oscillator sensitivity of fuzes wherein the oscillator
transmitted its own collector current information to a ground telemetry receiver. The
shell was hoisted above the ground over a water pond and suspended with a nylon rope
and moved over few wavelengths at a mean height of about ten metres, variations in the
oscillator collector current was monitored by a telemetry receiver..This was a new
innovation far superior to various contemporary methods of determining the fuze
sensitivity .
9
Proximity Fuzes: Theory and Techniques
The technical trials of the fuze were conducted at PXE, Balasore in March 1971 and
School of Artillery, Devlali in May 1971, more than a hundred fuzes were fired with a
success rate of 90 per cent. The first phase of user trials was conducted at Devlali in
September 1971, more than hundred fuzes were fired with a success of 80 per cent. The
analysis of the user trial results indicated that the fuze did not meet the reliability
requirements at higher charges.
This was intriguing as the fuze had undergone a
successful technical trial. Investigations and improvements were carried out. In the
phase II of user trials at Devlali, fifty fuzes were fired and forty eight fuzes functioned
perfectly.
Having met the GSQR, the fuze was formally accepted by the user for its
induction into services. The fuze technology was transferred to Hindustan Aeronautic
Laboratory (HAL), Hyderabad in 1973. In 1974, HAL fired a pre-production lot of fuzes
successfully. The manufacturing agency produced several thousand fuzes
subsequently.
The team later in 1975 developed a 4.5” Naval anti-aircraft fuze in a record nine
months period and tested it at PXE, Balasore against a standard metal sphere.
Interestingly in one of the tests carried out at that time when a foreign made 4.5” fuzes
was also being tested at the range, the indigenous fuze produced better results than the
imported fuzes. Nine of ten fuzes functioned in the proximity of the spherical target.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2018 05:28

A question for those with knowledge of the M777.

Which parts of it are made of titanium alloy?

I guess the trails and carriage.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2018 06:01

Rakesh,
Thanks. So they use net shape castings using investment casting technology to reduce machining and welding time. And TI alloy for weigh reduction.

OFB can use similar techniques with steel castings which is easier metallurgy than Titanium to realize mfg savings.


Eg:3D printed molds for Sand casting high strength steels.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2018 06:54


nam
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 25 Aug 2018 16:32

MoD approves production of 150 ATAGS at 3400 crores.

Indian MIC is on it's way.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 25 Aug 2018 16:35

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1033305774238453760

FLASH: MoD approves acquisition of 150 @DRDO_India Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGS) for the Indian Army at a cost of ₹3,400 crore.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1033307699738374144

And as expected, the Defence Acquisition Council of India's Ministry of Defence has cleared the procurement of 150 @DRDO_India developed ATAGS 155 mm / 52 calibre howitzers for the Indian Army @adgpi . ATAGS, as you know, boasts next generation capability.

The order value at the approval stage is Rs 3,364.78 crores for the 150 @DRDO_India developed 155 mm / 52 calibre ATAGS howitzers.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 25 Aug 2018 18:20

PZH 2k MRSI


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 25 Aug 2018 20:34

nam wrote:MoD approves production of 150 ATAGS at 3400 crores.

Indian MIC is on it's way.


Yippie

Major brown pants in Rawalpindi. :twisted:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 25 Aug 2018 21:06

There are still a bunch of trials to go before army places an order of production for 18 guns, the DAC approval is only one step forward and there are a lot many to go

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 26 Aug 2018 02:13

Chini artillery solutions.
Ah4, m777 equivalent, seem to have a little generator to power the movement of supporting arms.
They managed to sell to Kuwait!

Chinis don't have SP towed artillery, like our ATAGS. They do have small truck mounted 155/52.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 26 Aug 2018 02:15

What happens to the Dhanush, now that 150 ATAGS have been approved? Will they still order 414 Dhanush, or just wait for ATAGS?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 26 Aug 2018 09:58

the chinese are focussed people..not gasbags like Indians. How can u even think of selling something if u r forever in trials... and dont induct it in your own service !! we shuld be producing cheap equipment to sell overseas and fund our R&D but who gives a damn !

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 26 Aug 2018 10:18

I think there is space for Dhanush which is lighter and cheaper than ATAGS.

Frankly, I won’t be sad if there isn’t too. Is this the first time, three major desi systems have gone up against each other and the two best have got the orders? If yes, that is a great day.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 26 Aug 2018 10:24

Do we know for sure that Dhanush cannot be upgraded to 52 cal.

Or maybe it can be used in the eastern front where it lighter weight may be or a major advantage.

PS on the issue of bridges in the border areas and the axel load limit on them. Do we know what is the axel load for the atags.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 26 Aug 2018 11:39

Danush has a 52 cal version. It is on the ofb MGS.

Roles, I presume will be where ATAGS cannot go, dhanush will go, where dhanush cannot go M777 will go.

There might be a mix of dhanush and atags under a regiment assigned to a unit.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 26 Aug 2018 17:02

The MGS is a truck mounted system. 52 Cal. Kalyani has a 39cal version. We seem to be having all combinations possible when it comes to artillery.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 26 Aug 2018 18:59

Paks have got hold of surplus M109s from Italy. Around 100+ of them( out of 230). While we wait decades to induct brand new toys.

They are really beefing up their fluid artillery support to cater to our CS.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 26 Aug 2018 21:17

^ It appears so. How sad.

The M109 self propelled gun with Paki army will likely replace some towed Arty brigades.
Some plus and minus in terms of logistics of towed vs. Self propelled.

Overall, their heavy arty strength increases by 100-280 units, which is quite significant.

Also, their Heavy Industry Taxila seems comfortable with M109 maintenance and upgrades.

Their commanders now have at least 100 more units to fire back at us in sector like Rajasthan and Punjab.
They can wreak havoc up to 25 km range, which is better than our units.

Our towed gun Dhanush was first unveiled 9 years back, when Vk singh was chief.

Army can pls deploy 100 emergency purchase pieces to offer some parity.

Also, OFB upgrade of 130 mm to 155 mm involves same mechanisms and cradle, though new breech and barrel.

40 catapults/ Arjun can easily be upgraded to 155 mm. ( I, who am a relative newbie, made this same suggestion in a post in 2013.)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 26 Aug 2018 22:58

Kakkaji wrote:What happens to the Dhanush, now that 150 ATAGS have been approved? Will they still order 414 Dhanush, or just wait for ATAGS?


They both are needed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Aug 2018 23:43

nam wrote:Paks have got hold of surplus M109s from Italy. Around 100+ of them( out of 230). While we wait decades to induct brand new toys.

They are really beefing up their fluid artillery support to cater to our CS.

From 2019 or 2020 onwards we will be gettting at least 150+ guns a year of different types
K9, ATAGS, Dhanush, and M777
Not to exclude the sarang (M46) update. Unless we have to fight in the next 6 months. Things should improve only.
M109 is not a new phenomena. If things were so dire, IA would have cried from top of their lungs(they did too in case of M777)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 27 Aug 2018 11:41

For Dhanush, the plan was to get 114 45 cal initially and then get 300 52 cal guns. The Dhanush 52 cal gun is also ready. Maybe OFB internal trials might have been conducted but other trials are pending. They wanted to first sort out the issues with the 45 cal gun.
Its a pity that it took so long. The gun was good to go from 3 years ago.

The Sarang project to upgrade M46 guns has also been hanging fire since a long time. The solution was offered a long time ago. In fact a solution was offered at the time of the first Soltam upgrade itself. However, the OFB gun suffered a barrel burst, likely again due to faulty ammo at the time and the contract was given to Soltam. Due to the bribery allegations, the project was capped after the 1st 180 guns. The original plan was to upgrade 600 guns. Now, it seems the OFB solution has been accepted and another 300 guns are likely to be upgraded. Hope the contract for the same is signed ASAP.

With regards to the truck mounted solution, the picture is not clear. OFB has offered a solution with Dhanush. Tata had offered a solution few years back with Denel gun. I am sure they can modify the same to change the gun to ATAGS. However, they have not displayed any such solution. Along with the towed guns, truck mounted guns are also needed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Aug 2018 15:45

nam wrote:Paks have got hold of surplus M109s from Italy. Around 100+ of them( out of 230). While we wait decades to induct brand new toys.

They are really beefing up their fluid artillery support to cater to our CS.

While on the internet 2nd hand guns are as good as new. Many of these guns would good for cannibilization. HIT Pakistan can change engine oil etc, all the parts are manufactured in US and would need to there for major repairs. So hardly 50% of 2nd hand equipment will be available. A serious threat to us but we need to put Paki internet forum numbers in perspective.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 27 Aug 2018 16:24

ArjunPandit wrote:
nam wrote:Paks have got hold of surplus M109s from Italy. Around 100+ of them( out of 230). While we wait decades to induct brand new toys.

They are really beefing up their fluid artillery support to cater to our CS.

From 2019 or 2020 onwards we will be gettting at least 150+ guns a year of different types
K9, ATAGS, Dhanush, and M777
Not to exclude the sarang (M46) update. Unless we have to fight in the next 6 months. Things should improve only.
M109 is not a new phenomena. If things were so dire, IA would have cried from top of their lungs(they did too in case of M777)


There are two aspects. One is countering M109s. I don't know if a 155MM round can damage/knock off M109, during a counter battery fire. If yes, then we have the counter tech available. They need to be in numbers.

Second is overall procurement. Pak is really good at getting their bread & butter stuff in place, even if they cannot spend a lot on the top end. This allows them to create a constant threshold of threat and hold us to a stalemate even at 1/5 of our defence budget.

Our problem, we are short of basic stuff and on top on it we ignore it. For us it is about spending money on toys we may never use, but it makes us look like mini US/Russia. And we are ready to spend decades waiting for it.

What is our investment in a war which we are actually fighting on LoC? ATAGS is fabulous. Just that, we may never use it.

What are we doing about neutralizing Pak artillery & motar position on reverse/hidden position? which has caused the biggest amount of losses on our civilians and forces?

nam
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 27 Aug 2018 16:30

Aditya_V wrote:
nam wrote:Paks have got hold of surplus M109s from Italy. Around 100+ of them( out of 230). While we wait decades to induct brand new toys.

They are really beefing up their fluid artillery support to cater to our CS.

While on the internet 2nd hand guns are as good as new. Many of these guns would good for cannibilization. HIT Pakistan can change engine oil etc, all the parts are manufactured in US and would need to there for major repairs. So hardly 50% of 2nd hand equipment will be available. A serious threat to us but we need to put Paki internet forum numbers in perspective.


M109 parts should be easily available. Pak can route them through turkey. Ofcourse not saying all M109 will be available for action, however they are adding numbers and on the cheap.

They know what really kills. It is the bread & butter stuff. Not fancy PGM or stealth jets. Unless we have complete air superiority & availability, Pak land forces cannot be easily defeated.

Fundamentally a stalemate, which Pak wants.

ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Aug 2018 16:47

^^nam i see your point and agree to it as well. But just for the heck of arguing, India knows that even having the response or counter fire will not deter pakis (them being pakis only) with their pop growth, they have almost endless supply of cannon fodder. So this cycle is never going to stop unless we level up and hit them and make them cry when the day comes. This is not to say i do not support your strategy.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Aug 2018 17:15

nam wrote:
There are two aspects. One is countering M109s. I don't know if a 155MM round can damage/knock off M109, during a counter battery fire. If yes, then we have the counter tech available. They need to be in numbers.



What are we doing about neutralizing Pak artillery & motar position on reverse/hidden position? which has caused the biggest amount of losses on our civilians and forces?


What makes you think direct 155 shell will not incapacitate a m109.
That shell will definitely make the m109 or any such vehicle unviable to a significant degree. There is a US army test paper I read.

Also how's arty to be used for reverse slope position neutralisation?

For rest of the scenario today the IA is inducting WLR.


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