Artillery: News & Discussion

JTull
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 28 Oct 2018 08:45

155mm shell has 8kg of explosive as per above 130mm upgunning article

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Oct 2018 09:01

There is cost of other things also. I don't have exact figures but estimates per round:-

BB USD 1000
RAP USD 1000
Propellant USD 1000
Depreciation of Howitzer USD 1000 to 2000
Less versatility and slower strategic mobility, lesser footprint, lesser range hence better counter fire resources are required to defend, estimates ?

So firing one GPS 155 Round cost is USD 15000 to deliver 6kg explosives upto 60km

Firing one GPS GUIDED MBRL round delivers 50kg explosives in optimised 100kg warhead with tungestan pellets upto 70-90km at cost of USD 100,000/- per round.

IIRC MBRL can also store ten times the bomblets, mines compared to 155mm shell or even fuel air explosives.

Excalibur is USD 50 to 100,000/-
Kraspanol is USD 50 to 75,000/- for 6-10kg explosives.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby dhyana » 28 Oct 2018 09:40

Excalibur is USD 50 to 100,000/-
Kraspanol is USD 50 to 75,000/- for 6-10kg explosives.

:shock:

Had no idea that artillery could be this expensive. But the figures quoted are similar to that given by former artillerymen:

What is the cost of an artillery round
Due to the low rate of production, the XM982 Excalibur rounds is costing us tax payers us tax payers $140,000.00 each.

Most conventional Artillery rounds are costing around $1000.00 each.

Those numbers would be for the M777 Howitzer.

So smaller caliber would cost incrementally less for conventional rounds.


MBRL starts making more sense?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Oct 2018 10:09

Unguided Pinaka 2 round is around USD 35000. In my view, with mass production unguided MBRL round will cost USD 20,000 & Guided round USD 50,000.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 28 Oct 2018 10:17

As already noted the er guided rounds are suitable for murican style firebases with v22/chinook/c130 resupply to fire on small agile targets located by drones or to support patrols under attack
Low number of rounds and less collareral risk

Since we dont do that mode of warfare we can use cheaper alternatives

Guided pinaka can also be fired in single shot mode if we want to

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Oct 2018 12:55

Logistics?

Why are we still inducting non rocket arty?

What is our deployment of rocket arty i.e. where is it most suitable - can we completely replace regular arty?


If we dont address these questions then this is just khayali pulao!!!
Last edited by ks_sachin on 28 Oct 2018 13:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Oct 2018 13:13

What nonsence...dont betray a lack of critical thinking with these red herrings!!

Note: i dont say you are wrong but explore why we have the holdings we have...

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Oct 2018 13:25

You started this mischief by Rhetorical nonsense,. Now don't try to act high and mighty. I did not make any remark against imports as all Dalal lovers get all antsy. You are intentionally trying to derail the thread. I understand this argument, Generals know everything, so don't discuss any issue especially what may impact potential imports.

High caliber 155mm Artillery is not ALL Artillery

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Oct 2018 13:50

Yes i did because these are not rhetorical questions and nothing to do with imports.

You make stupid blanket statements like dalals decide procurement what do you expect...

But if your knowgedle of arty is like your knowledge of small arms then i will call this out. The generals probably know better...

But if you get rid of the chip on your shoulder you would realise that cost is one factor in weapons doctrine and see where I was going...

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Oct 2018 17:39

dhyana wrote:Due to the low rate of production, the XM982 Excalibur rounds is costing us tax payers us tax payers $140,000.00 each.


Think of the XM982 as a sniper round that is used in danger close situations (due to its < 4 m CEP at all ranges) where without it artillery would not be able to provide support or for other needs where it might be more suited (different angle of attack for example in the ES mode). It is not a replacement for anything but an additional capability.

Given its special case use, we can leave the XM982 out for now and focus on Ramana's cost comparison using PGK as it is a better indicator for the true cost of the overwhelming majority of your precision guided artillery rounds. I guess you could add some additional cost to that for the RAP round on which you add your PGK (assuming that you would need to procure RAP rounds to get extended range).

Comparison between Medium-Long range artillery rounds and guided or unguided MLR's has to assume targets against which both munition types would work. No point in discussing targets against which you need much higher firepower that comes with MLRS or your short ranged ballistic missiles. However, if you do think that there are targets out there that your artillery can threaten with these shells, at an affordable cost, then it really complicates the enemy calculus when it has to take into account that you can reach medium to long distances with multiple weapon types and with high accuracy. It forces the enemy to either invest in defenses, or be constantly mobile etc.

For PGK we are using the US procurement cost data (roughly $8500 URF per M1156 kit) since that kit is in production and is being mass produced at the highest rate. Adding $5000 in additional costs for the RAP round and the other misc. items you get to a cost of $13,500 per round. I am not very familiar with the worldwide market/production of guided MRL systems but in the US, GMLRS costs roughly $130K per round for a annual procurement of around 6500 rounds in 2018 (US Army budgets). I guess you could bring the cost down further if you upped production to a 1000+ a month as long as there is demand. However, on the other side there are costs that are being added to the guidance section as things like MCode and other enhancements are required to make the weapon more resilient in GPS contested environments so you may not get it down to 5 digits $ at least in the US and given its production rate.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Oct 2018 21:38

ks_sachin wrote:Yes i did because these are not rhetorical questions and nothing to do with imports.

You make stupid blanket statements like dalals decide procurement what do you expect...

But if your knowgedle of arty is like your knowledge of small arms then i will call this out. The generals probably know better...

But if you get rid of the chip on your shoulder you would realise that cost is one factor in weapons doctrine and see where I was going...

To lighten mood, Sachin are you ex services? Your no nonsense attitude made me feel so

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 29 Oct 2018 23:05

Latest ATAGS trials started at Pokhran on Saturday and will continue for 5 Days. Report that it will be tested to hit targets at 50 to 60 Kms. :)

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Oct 2018 23:47

Vips, Thanks. that kind of ends the RAP discussion!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:14

Vips wrote:Latest ATAGS trials started at Pokhran on Saturday and will continue for 5 Days. Report that it will be tested to hit targets at 50 to 60 Kms. :)

That is awesome news. WOW! Thanks Vips!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:15

If you drag the picture below into a new window, you can see it bigger (in all its glory!)...

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1056155227978530816 ---> Well, India's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has signed a contract with the Ministry of Defence for the upgunning of 300 M-46 130mm field guns to a 155mm/45 caliber standard called Sharang. OFB's solution was the only one that passed muster in trials. Courtesy: OFB

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:18

Sharang upgrade kit video....from March 2018...


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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:18

Defence Ministry signs Rs 200 crore contract to up gun 130mm howitzers
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/d ... 2018-10-26

In a significant yet cost-effective boost to the Indian Army’s firepower, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has placed a Rs 200 crore order on the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) for up-gunning the Indian Army’s vintage 130mm M-46 artillery guns.


The Sharang upgrade kit costs less than Rs 75 lakh per gun, or less than one-fifth the cost of a brand new towed field artillery piece. (Below) Sharang during a firing trial at Pokharan.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:23

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 8612254721 ---> More wins for Make In India - Defence as artillery Sharang (picture below), OFB LMG & JVPC are inducted into the Indian Army.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:24

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1056209212940869632 ---->

India's near future, some artillery systems:-

- M777: 30 km (40 km possible)
- Sharang: 36 km
- Dhanush: 38 km
- ATAGS: 47-48 km +
- K9 Vajra T: 30-42 km (55 km possible)
- Smerch: 70-90 km
- Pinaka: 40-120 km

Besides, new indigenous ULH , MGS and SPH are also coming.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:26

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 6863506432 ----> OFB to upgrade 300 Russian made 130mm M-46 artillery guns to 155mm/45 caliber “Sharang” artillery guns. This upgraded artillery weighs 8.4 tons.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 00:28

Rakesh,
Thanks for putting all the Sharang news in one place. When we last heard in march 2018, the OFB was waiting for the contract to be awarded. Now they can get busy making the conversions.
IA should prioritize the remaining 800 M-46s for the upgrade program and task the OFB to convert the 130mm shell line to 155mm shells.

I would like update about the BEL Pune electronic fuze output.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 30 Oct 2018 00:46

Great news on the Sharang contract being signed. But why just for 300 guns? What'll happen to the remaining 500 odd guns that were acquired but not upgraded by Soltam for Project Karan?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:48

Thanks Ramana-ji. I came across Sandeep Saar's article on the Sharang on twitter and then I did a twitter search for Sharang and all wonderful gems of info and pics came out. Then I twitter blasted all the tweets in here. I find twitter to be better than google news in that respect.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:51

Kartik (and Ramana-ji): My hunch is that 300 is just the initial upgrade batch. I have a feeling that the Army wants to see how OFB performs with the upgrade and will then decide on the remaining guns. I hope OFB does a bang-up job, because Dhanush is also from their stables. I would rather not hear sob stories about delays, cost over-runs, labour issues, etc, etc, etc. A lot is riding - for OFB - on this upgrade.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 30 Oct 2018 01:07

I certainly do hope so- that the remaining guns are not disposed or used for spares, and instead get up-gunned to the Sharang spec as well. At Rs 70 lakhs per gun, they offer amazing value for money, giving hope that the IA could eventually have nearly 1000 Sharang and Project Karan derived 155/45 guns at a fraction of the cost of new 155/45 guns. BTW, if the barrel and breech are replaced and new ones are put, does that mean that the gun's life is as good as new? Or are there other components that are not replaced that could mean a shorter life span for the Sharang guns?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 30 Oct 2018 02:03

The Russian guns are bare bone and rugged. Upgrading it to 155 means, we have replaced the part which gets the most wear and tear.

There isn't anything critical left !

OFB must be producing some of the parts already for these guns. So very effective ratio for investment to firepower.

I never fathom, why we did not produce a 120/130 MM version of IFG.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 03:49

Kartik, There were many articles on the OFB developed Sharang upgrade. Basically the barrel, breech, the recoil system and the electronics for gun laying. Only gun carriage is retained form original. During the 1990s decade IA bought man of the M-46 available as part of Warsaw pact demobilization.
Hence the 1000 guns inventory.
Also do watch the Youtube linked by Rakesh on previous page. I really like the pride and sincerity of that OFB officials.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 30 Oct 2018 07:34


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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 30 Oct 2018 14:44

ramana wrote:Kartik, There were many articles on the OFB developed Sharang upgrade. Basically the barrel, breech, the recoil system and the electronics for gun laying. Only gun carriage is retained form original. During the 1990s decade IA bought man of the M-46 available as part of Warsaw pact demobilization.
Hence the 1000 guns inventory.
Also do watch the Youtube linked by Rakesh on previous page. I really like the pride and sincerity of that OFB officials.
,

For Indian artillery, we can label the 2000-2010 decade as the lost decade.
The OFB upgrade of the M46 guns as well as an Bofors upgraded to 45 cal were displayed in Defexpo 2004.
The OFB M46 upgrade and the Soltam upgrade were in competition when the idea was first mooted. The OFB gun suffered a barrel burst or more correctly the the round burst in the barrel and IA was not interested in the OFB solution anymore.

The plan was to upgrade 600 of the roughly 1,000 M46 guns to 155mm. The first order for 180 guns was placed with Soltam. However, thereafter we proceeded to blacklist Soltam, Denel, Rhinemetal etc. etc. leaving only BAE systems in the fray for 155mm guns. The govt. didn't want to sign the contracrt with BAE, that too in a single vendor type situation and the rest as they say is history.

Now after all these years, it seems maybe only another 300 M46 guns are worth upgrading or maybe a ssecond tranche might be taken up later.

We can offer the same upgrade to other countries as well, like Vietnam. They have plenty of M46 guns. the Vietnam war was the first major conflict where the M46 was used and considered as the most effective gun at the time. At $100,000 per unit, it is fairly reasonable. OFB can get an order for say 200-300 ungs from Vietnam and also the order for the ammunition for the same.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Oct 2018 14:59

Let's be accurate its 2004-14 and not 2000-10, it was only post 2004 elections we artiberally blacklisted Denel and Soltam. We stopped purchase contracts for offensive weapons such as artillery and ammunition focussed more on buying C17 and C130.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 23:21

Mody and Aditya_V you both are right to a certain extent.
yes 2004 elections resulted in UPA coming to power and the end of offensive weapons system purchase.
Denel, and Soltam were blacklisted and Rhinemetall just to be sure.

If UPA had a chance even BAE would have been blacklisted.

Having said all this, even the Soltam upgrade was chancy as it had muzzle strike due to shell balloting.
Recall OFB engineers saying that the muzzle bore was enlarged to mitigate it.
Less than about 200 guns were upgraded with the Soltam solution.

The reason for shell balloting was not understood and blame OFB for bad shells was the standard Root Cause of inquiry committees.
When the shell burst in the M777 guns they realized some thing is wrong.
Especially when M777 was fired 1164 times and the next one blew up.
Despite being given two guns to do the user trials.
Essentially barrel wear is a major contributor.

It was only recently after we discussed this phenomenon that this phenomenon was understood by higher ups.
Now all the guns are passing trials as the firing is limited to within the mfg recommended barrel wear limits.

I just want the ordering process to be speeded up and stop the delays in file pushing.


M-46 has a barrel elevation problem due to the gun carriage limitations.
It cant be depressed beyond an angle.
The work around is to site it near a pit or embankment to allow the higher elevation.
This reduces protection from counter battery blast etc.
However the upgrade is a quantum jump over the 130 mm Diwali phataka explosive qty of < 5 kg vs ~15 kg for the 155mm shell !

I don't know if OFB or somebody makes the fuzes for the 130mm shells?
OFB and BEL now make 155mm shell fuzes.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 23:23

Hats off to the Indian Army Artillery General who had faith in the OFB and supported the Dhanush development.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 30 Oct 2018 23:43

The pneumatic rammer in the Sharang is really important.. Otherwise they would have problems ramming the 40+kg round when the tube is at high angles.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 00:57

Very true.
One of the modes of failure is the shell drops out of the barrel and falls into the chamber.
Results in blowup.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Oct 2018 10:15

Another aspect of the 130mm upgrade is that is frees up 155mm Howitzers to be used in the Mountains, one of the calculation of Musharaf is that Bofors will be needed in Shakargarh bulge and hence given serviceability not enough 155mm Bofors would be inducted in Kargil area, fortunately here again his calculation on serviceable no of guns was wrong.

Previously when we did not have enough 155mm howitzers we had to keep them on the plains and move 130mm up to the hills and use the embankment Technic, if enough 130mm are upgraded, these will be kept in the plains and the Howitzers will be moved up the mountains to use thier high angle of elevation.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Oct 2018 16:17

Buy Chassis of 2A65 towed 152mm artillery from Russia. Mount 155mm OFB Barrel etc and we have a 155mm howitzer for Rs 1.5 crore each

Or just ask Kalyani to manufacture 52-56 caliber variants of its 155MM ULH.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Oct 2018 21:32

The coming strides in arty are not going to be in the number or even length of tubes, rather smart fuses, rocket assisted projectiles, connected fire direction centers, and closing the sensor shooter gap. Looks like the IA is making strides in all areas.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 22:26

Gyan wrote:Buy Chassis of 2A65 towed 152mm artillery from Russia. Mount 155mm OFB Barrel etc and we have a 155mm howitzer for Rs 1.5 crore each

Or just ask Kalyani to manufacture 52-56 caliber variants of its 155MM ULH.


I think India has supported enough outsiders. Best option is to push for more ATAGS and Dhanush while converting the M46 in stock.
also Kalyani can make the Bofors replacements as they would need to be changed out by now.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 22:28

sudeepj wrote:The coming strides in arty are not going to be in the number or even length of tubes, rather smart fuses, rocket assisted projectiles, connected fire direction centers, and closing the sensor shooter gap. Looks like the IA is making strides in all areas.


Sudeepj,
We heard about a jont arty center run by OFB, Army to induct the Dhanush etc.
What do we know about its status?
Also no updates on BEL Pune Fuze factory and ARDE PGK project.


Ok Added later...

BEL plans to come up with artillery fuse plant in Nagpur
TNN | Jul 18, 2018,

NAGPUR: Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) announced its plans to come up with an artillery fuse manufacturing facility at Butibori industrial estate of the MIDC here. The defence PSU, which is already making fuses for artillery shells since a year, eyes a major business in this segment. So far, with 1.5 lakh units made at its plant in Pune, BEL hopes to make a similar amount on an annual basis at the proposed unit in Nagpur.

BEL officials, who announced the plans at a seminar organized by Vidarbha Defence Industries Association (VDIA), have sought the help of Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis for the venture. Fadnavis, who was present at the meet, has assured help.

Fuse is a component in an artillery shell which triggers the bigger explosion. The fuse, which is filled with a chemical, is run on mechanical as well as electronic systems. BEL will be making electronic fuses. Initially it has started making fuses for the 105mm Indian field guns which is the basic level artillery system used by the Indian army. There are plans to eventually start making fuses for 155mm howitzers which includes guns of the Bofors make or the Dhanush, indigenously developed by the Ordnance Factory.

“As the army is shifting from the mechanical fuses to electronic ones, BEL is seeing a major opportunity in this business,” said a company source. BEL sees a major strategic advantage in having a plant in Nagpur. Solar Industries, a private sector explosive maker from the city, is one of its vendors which is supplying chemicals for filling up the fuses.

At present, Solar Industries is carrying out the filling operation for the fuses made in BEL’s Pune plant. The logistics would work out better if the fuse plant is set up in Nagpur itself. “The firing range where the components are tested is located at Itarsi which is again close to Nagpur. Finally, the components have to be supplied at the army’s central ammunition depot (CAD) which is at the close by location of Pulgaon,”
said the source.

{So why did the open the facility in Pune! the whole ecosystem is near Nagpur. Maybe they had the bldg already built in Pune and decided to open this facility.}


The company has given a request for 200 acres of land to the MIDC. A source in the MIDC said that the case would be processed soon. BEL plans to come up with the factory within 24 months. The plant would entail an investment of Rs 200 crore.


This will be the fourth BEL plant in the state. “Apart from fuses, the company plans to develop similar systems for guided ammunition in the future,” said the source.


At the VDIA function, another PSU — Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) — also expressed its plans to start a unit in Nagpur. “Opportunities are also being explored by Slovakian defence manufacturer UDS Defence for having business in Nagpur,” said Dushyant Deshpande of VDIA.


Would like to track:
1) Nagpur Butibori Industrial estate authorization was given
2) Whats the BEL progress in building the plant?
3) What is the progress in making 155mm fuzes either at Pune or Nagpur?
4) And wonder of wonders if the guided ammo project is the PGK fuze?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Oct 2018 22:35

I don't think Dhanush & ATAGS production will ever materialize. Any Orders will go to lighter M777 of 52 caliber. Arjun 2 reboot.

In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery. Kalyani 155mm 39 caliber ULH will be adequate for all purposes, in the unlikely situation of ever being ordered.


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